Re: fedora release name problem
On Fri, 2013-03-22 at 14:44 -0400, Kaleb S. KEITHLEY wrote: On 03/20/2013 07:23 PM, David Woodhouse wrote: On Tue, 2013-03-19 at 09:27 +0100, Christof Damian wrote: Fixing them now will benefit all future releases and all the people living in non pure ASCII countries. ∄ pure ASCII countries. It is incredibly naĩve to believe otherwise. That should be naïve — i.e. i-diaeresis, not i-tilde. So it should. Evidently I hit RightAlt-] instead of RightAlt-[ before the 'i' key, and failed to notice. Sorry about that. Btw, please remember to Cc me on replies – I've only just seen this! I see you're a Thunderbird user. Does it have the same option that Evolution does, to ignore abusive Reply-To: settings on mailing lists? -- dwmw2 smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: fedora release name problem
On Wed, May 01, 2013 at 09:17:46 +0100, David Woodhouse dw...@infradead.org wrote: I see you're a Thunderbird user. Does it have the same option that Evolution does, to ignore abusive Reply-To: settings on mailing lists? If you use maildrop filtering, you can have it strip reply-to headers from messages sent to lists that do reply-to munging. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: fedora release name problem
On Qui, 2013-03-28 at 21:22 +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote: Adam Williamson wrote: Of course not, but that's kinda different. In the one case, the long slip bought us an entirely rewritten installer. In this case, any potential slip buys us...a prettified release name. Gee, willikers, watch me trying to restrain my excitement. In any case, what this teaches us is that release names are not harmless fun as the fans of continuing with release names have repeatedly claimed. This pointless fun has a real cost. In this case, it actually PREVENTED SYSTEMS FROM BOOTING! And once this got worked around, we're still wasting time trying to fix issues with non-ASCII characters in the release name. Not to mention all the time wasted discussing the nonsense. Let's drop release names NOW (ideally immediately, before the F19 release)! The harmFUL fun is not worth the harm it causes. If some tools expect a release name, just use Nineteen as the release name. I agree with you , some tool are design to work with ASCII as in nineties and don't see any advantage of release name becomes UTF-8 strings. -- Sérgio M. B. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: fedora release name problem
On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 21:28:49 +0100 eduard.vopicka eduard.vopi...@seznam.cz wrote: Hello. I think it is really time for some authority to decide ASAP, taking into account that this is now (proposed) alpha blocker bug and the scope of the overall fix is still unknown. I could not resist, sorry. agreed leave name as is, fix issues as they arise (+6,0,0) https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1102#comment:10 kevin signature.asc Description: PGP signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: fedora release name problem
On 18/03/13 10:22 PM, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 05:56:28PM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: On Mon, 2013-03-18 at 18:34 -0600, Kevin Fenzi wrote: On Mon, 18 Mar 2013 23:56:28 + Sérgio Basto ser...@serjux.com wrote: Hi, For the first time, Fedora release name have non-ascii and pelican characters which https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=922433 Could we consider change release name from Schrödinger's Cat to Schrodingers Cat or other name that not have this additional problem ? I'd rather we fix things to handle this case than paper it over by changing it. +1 I would very much like that we paper it over right now, unless you propose to discover and fix every single problem it causes by tomorrow, when I want us to start rolling TC images. If by right now you mean until we get TC out (or even until we get alpha out), I wouldn't be opposed to that. These sort of bugs really are something that need to be fixed and this release name is a good candidate for doing so... but the time from alpha to beta is appropriate for fixing bugs so it's okay if we defer fixing them for a little while. -Toshio who's been working on various iterations of a fix for this in the python3 package[1] for a few days Kuratomi Well, look, my point is that sometimes our commitment to 'fixing things the right way' appears to verge on bloody masochism. You want to set up a side project to spin some images with crazy release names and see what breaks and fix that, then you know, go for it. But I'm trying to ship an operating system that works here, and leaving something we know is causing all kinds of problems in the problematic state just so we can keep finding exciting new problems to fix does not suffuse me with joy. If we have to compromise on just papering it over for Alpha, I mean, _fine_. But seriously: sometimes papering it over is just the right thing to do. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: fedora release name problem
Le Mar 19 mars 2013 02:24, Chris Murphy a écrit : And is fixing this apostrophe issue going to have some clear benefit anywhere else? Fixing an apostrophe – no Fixing our UTF-8 handling – definitely yes -- Nicolas Mailhot -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: fedora release name problem
On 03/19/2013 02:11 AM, Adam Williamson wrote: Well, look, my point is that sometimes our commitment to 'fixing things the right way' appears to verge on bloody masochism. snip If we have to compromise on just papering it over for Alpha, I mean, _fine_. But seriously: sometimes papering it over is just the right thing to do. I disagree. This particular problem points out a problem that is only going to become more of a problem as the internationalization of software increases. Not everything is ASCII or English, and not defensively programming for such cases is short-sighted. Perhaps we are getting burned out by the hectic pace that Fedora tries to keep with a six-month release cycle. I know I sat out a lot of the 18 cycle due to a sense of being overwhelmed by the rush. -- G.Wolfe Woodbury redwo...@gmail.com -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: fedora release name problem
On 19 March 2013 08:30, Nicolas Mailhot nicolas.mail...@laposte.net wrote: Le Mar 19 mars 2013 02:24, Chris Murphy a écrit : And is fixing this apostrophe issue going to have some clear benefit anywhere else? Fixing an apostrophe – no Fixing our UTF-8 handling – definitely yes I expected both of these things creating problems for the next release. It will also break all kind of web sites that create lists of distributions. I see it as a good thing, the problems we find are usually real bugs that just haven't been discovered yet. Fixing them now will benefit all future releases and all the people living in non pure ASCII countries. Reminds me of the xkcd Exploits of a Mom strip http://xkcd.com/327/ -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: fedora release name problem
On 19/03/13 01:04 AM, G.Wolfe Woodbury wrote: On 03/19/2013 02:11 AM, Adam Williamson wrote: Well, look, my point is that sometimes our commitment to 'fixing things the right way' appears to verge on bloody masochism. snip If we have to compromise on just papering it over for Alpha, I mean, _fine_. But seriously: sometimes papering it over is just the right thing to do. I disagree. This particular problem points out a problem that is only going to become more of a problem as the internationalization of software increases. Not everything is ASCII or English, and not defensively programming for such cases is short-sighted. Perhaps we are getting burned out by the hectic pace that Fedora tries to keep with a six-month release cycle. I know I sat out a lot of the 18 cycle due to a sense of being overwhelmed by the rush. I don't object at all to fixing UTF-8 issues, but it seems needlessly stressful to force ourselves to do so as a part of release validation, with booby traps exploding all around us. It's the kind of thing that can easily be worked on in a less stressful manner. Instead of using the development method 'let's break it now in our main product and fix stuff as we happen across it', how about the development method 'let's not break our main product for now, let's let people who want to hack on it do so as a side stream, and then when they think they have fixed the most important issues, _then_ they can propose putting the disruptive change into the main product'. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: fedora release name problem
On 19/03/13 01:27 AM, Christof Damian wrote: I see it as a good thing, the problems we find are usually real bugs that just haven't been discovered yet. Sure. But it's a question of priorities. A shortage of bugs to work on is one the very few problems with which Fedora developers do _not_ have to contend. It's not like, if we don't find some unicode bugs to hack on, all the developers are just going to lie around doing nothing... Fixing them now will benefit all future releases and all the people living in non pure ASCII countries. ...who want to edit the fedora-release name? I guess? Reminds me of the xkcd Exploits of a Mom strip http://xkcd.com/327/ It reminds everyone of that. I think it's a reasonable rule of thumb that, if something makes you think of an xkcd strip, you can pretty much assume everyone else is thinking of the same xkcd strip, and skip the citation. =) -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: fedora release name problem
- Original Message - On 18/03/13 10:22 PM, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 05:56:28PM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: On Mon, 2013-03-18 at 18:34 -0600, Kevin Fenzi wrote: On Mon, 18 Mar 2013 23:56:28 + Sérgio Basto ser...@serjux.com wrote: Hi, For the first time, Fedora release name have non-ascii and pelican characters which https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=922433 Could we consider change release name from Schrödinger's Cat to Schrodingers Cat or other name that not have this additional problem ? I'd rather we fix things to handle this case than paper it over by changing it. +1 I would very much like that we paper it over right now, unless you propose to discover and fix every single problem it causes by tomorrow, when I want us to start rolling TC images. If by right now you mean until we get TC out (or even until we get alpha out), I wouldn't be opposed to that. These sort of bugs really are something that need to be fixed and this release name is a good candidate for doing so... but the time from alpha to beta is appropriate for fixing bugs so it's okay if we defer fixing them for a little while. -Toshio who's been working on various iterations of a fix for this in the python3 package[1] for a few days Kuratomi Well, look, my point is that sometimes our commitment to 'fixing things the right way' appears to verge on bloody masochism. You want to set up a side project to spin some images with crazy release names and see what breaks and fix that, then you know, go for it. But I'm trying to ship an operating system that works here, and leaving something we know is causing all kinds of problems in the problematic state just so we can keep finding exciting new problems to fix does not suffuse me with joy. If we have to compromise on just papering it over for Alpha, I mean, _fine_. But seriously: sometimes papering it over is just the right thing to do. I'd say - go with the current one and fix all possible bugs OR change it (and well, I prefer this solution as we really need working composes soon for other devs and I'm really glad for more integration/stabilization time between branching and freeze!) but not both. If we change it for Alpha, fix bugs we are aware of now, we will hit new bugs during Beta cycle for sure... On the other hand - I really think we should fix it but it's probably longer term run - we know that umlaut and ' are not a good citizens in release name but there are probably much more combinations we could hit in the future... To make it short: de-internationalize release name, stick with it for final. Jaroslav -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: fedora release name problem
Dne 19.3.2013 04:05, Chris Murphy napsal(a): On Mar 18, 2013, at 8:44 PM, Andre Robatino robat...@fedoraproject.org wrote: If we do, shouldn't there be another vote asking if it's okay to make this change, in light of the possible release delay? Definitely not. There is equivalent that doesn't require apostrophe or umlaut (diaeresis) characters. Legal will have a far less difficult time with this than flat out incorrect spellings, or new names. It's not the name that was originally voted for. Schrodinger is not the man's name, and is the wrong solution. Schroedinger is as acceptable as Schrödinger. Yes, definitely Schroedinger if Schrödinger does not work. Vít -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: fedora release name problem
On Tue, 2013-03-19 at 10:01 +0100, Vít Ondruch wrote: Dne 19.3.2013 04:05, Chris Murphy napsal(a): On Mar 18, 2013, at 8:44 PM, Andre Robatino robat...@fedoraproject.org wrote: If we do, shouldn't there be another vote asking if it's okay to make this change, in light of the possible release delay? Definitely not. There is equivalent that doesn't require apostrophe or umlaut (diaeresis) characters. Legal will have a far less difficult time with this than flat out incorrect spellings, or new names. It's not the name that was originally voted for. Schrodinger is not the man's name, and is the wrong solution. Schroedinger is as acceptable as Schrödinger. Yes, definitely Schroedinger if Schrödinger does not work. Could it be a Cat of Schroedinger perhaps? -- Tomas Mraz No matter how far down the wrong road you've gone, turn back. Turkish proverb -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: fedora release name problem
On 03/19/13 01:56, Adam Williamson wrote: This bug just *smells* like one of those which will pop up again and again and again causing carnage wherever it shows up. Shouldn't be worse than F18 where we slipped how many weeks? Or was it even months in the end? cheers, Gerd -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: fedora release name problem
- Original Message - On 03/19/13 01:56, Adam Williamson wrote: This bug just *smells* like one of those which will pop up again and again and again causing carnage wherever it shows up. Shouldn't be worse than F18 where we slipped how many weeks? Or was it even months in the end? The difference is between slipping for a real reason - new installer, updater, SB or nitpicking on release name. Definitely, we should not hide the issue - bugs are already reported but it does not make sense to shoot ourself to knees when we have a possible solution. Jaroslav cheers, Gerd -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: fedora release name problem
On 19 March 2013 08:04, G.Wolfe Woodbury redwo...@gmail.com wrote: On 03/19/2013 02:11 AM, Adam Williamson wrote: Well, look, my point is that sometimes our commitment to 'fixing things the right way' appears to verge on bloody masochism. snip If we have to compromise on just papering it over for Alpha, I mean, _fine_. But seriously: sometimes papering it over is just the right thing to do. I disagree. This particular problem points out a problem that is only going to become more of a problem as the internationalization of software increases. Not everything is ASCII or English, and not defensively programming for such cases is short-sighted. This is conflating an issue that affects the release name and issues related to it to internationalisation in general. I see that fixes are being worked on for this issue, but it also seems it can't be guaranteed that there are no further problems it will cause right now and holding up the release for what is basically a triviality seems a bit silly. -- imalone http://ibmalone.blogspot.co.uk -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: fedora release name problem
On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 01:31:30AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: On 19/03/13 01:04 AM, G.Wolfe Woodbury wrote: On 03/19/2013 02:11 AM, Adam Williamson wrote: Well, look, my point is that sometimes our commitment to 'fixing things the right way' appears to verge on bloody masochism. snip If we have to compromise on just papering it over for Alpha, I mean, _fine_. But seriously: sometimes papering it over is just the right thing to do. I disagree. This particular problem points out a problem that is only going to become more of a problem as the internationalization of software increases. Not everything is ASCII or English, and not defensively programming for such cases is short-sighted. Perhaps we are getting burned out by the hectic pace that Fedora tries to keep with a six-month release cycle. I know I sat out a lot of the 18 cycle due to a sense of being overwhelmed by the rush. I don't object at all to fixing UTF-8 issues, but it seems needlessly stressful to force ourselves to do so as a part of release validation, with booby traps exploding all around us. It's the kind of thing that can easily be worked on in a less stressful manner. Instead of using the development method 'let's break it now in our main product and fix stuff as we happen across it', how about the development method 'let's not break our main product for now, let's let people who want to hack on it do so as a side stream, and then when they think they have fixed the most important issues, _then_ they can propose putting the disruptive change into the main product'. An interesting question is: Why don't we try out the new release name early on in Rawhide. ie. we would change the release name now to whatever F20 is going to be + (Rawhide). Wouldn't that give us a lot more time to test and fix? Rich. -- Richard Jones, Virtualization Group, Red Hat http://people.redhat.com/~rjones Read my programming blog: http://rwmj.wordpress.com Fedora now supports 80 OCaml packages (the OPEN alternative to F#) -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: fedora release name problem
On Tuesday 19 March 2013 09:27:16 Christof Damian wrote: Fixing an apostrophe – no Fixing our UTF-8 handling – definitely yes The issue here is not only about the Fedora's release name rather than fixing our UTF-8 handling. Sounds like an important bug to fix, at least to me Fixing them now will benefit all future releases and all the people living in non pure ASCII countries. Which is pretty much every non-english speaking country Marc -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: fedora release name problem
Le Mar 19 mars 2013 09:31, Adam Williamson a écrit : I don't object at all to fixing UTF-8 issues, but it seems needlessly stressful to force ourselves to do so as a part of release validation, with booby traps exploding all around us. It's the kind of thing that can easily be worked on in a less stressful manner. And Fedora switched to UTF-8 by default when exactly (was it even Fedora or a RHL decision)? The less stressful manner seems to have failed utterly here, at some point some problems only get fixed (and not procastinated indefinitely) when software breaks. Moreover, experience shows any python tool (and we have tons of them system-side) will break on UTF-8 by default. And that python devs do not remember to test this case. Therefore, I doubt the problem could be realistically detected and fixed before branching point. Regards, -- Nicolas Mailhot -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: fedora release name problem
On 19 March 2013 11:03, Marc Deop i Argemí m...@marcdeop.com wrote: On Tuesday 19 March 2013 09:27:16 Christof Damian wrote: Fixing an apostrophe – no Umlaut, not apostrophe. Fixing our UTF-8 handling – definitely yes The issue here is not only about the Fedora's release name rather than fixing our UTF-8 handling. Sounds like an important bug to fix, at least to me I generally haven't had problems with UTF-8 stuff, though of course I'm not a heavy user (which is not the same as not using it). However are the bug or bugs in question serious enough that introducing a change which will require them to be fixed before the next release is only a minor compounding factor? Because we're not talking about not improving unicode handling, we're talking about backing off a change which causes problems with things as they are at the minute. Or, to put it another way, for Fedora 18, Fedora got a lot of publicity for being late to release. The project was able to say, quite reasonably, The installer has undergone a major rewrite, and we want to make sure all the problems are ironed out first. For Fedora 19 do we want to say, We're late to release because we wanted to put an 'ö' in the release name.? -- imalone http://ibmalone.blogspot.co.uk -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: fedora release name problem
Le Mar 19 mars 2013 11:38, Ian Malone a écrit : and holding up the release for what is basically a triviality seems a bit silly. The perception correct UTF-8 handling is a triviality that should be worked on at some later date is the reason we have this breakage now. -- Nicolas Mailhot -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: fedora release name problem
Le Mar 19 mars 2013 09:27, Christof Damian a écrit : On 19 March 2013 08:30, Nicolas Mailhot nicolas.mail...@laposte.net wrote: Le Mar 19 mars 2013 02:24, Chris Murphy a écrit : And is fixing this apostrophe issue going to have some clear benefit anywhere else? Fixing an apostrophe – no Fixing our UTF-8 handling – definitely yes I expected both of these things creating problems for the next release. It will also break all kind of web sites that create lists of distributions. I sort of agree, given how pervasive apostrophe use is in English it was wishful thinking to accept multi-word release names without fixing apostrophe use. But most other languages care more about the UTF-8 part :) Regards, -- Nicolas Mailhot -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: fedora release name problem
On 19 March 2013 11:24, Nicolas Mailhot nicolas.mail...@laposte.net wrote: Le Mar 19 mars 2013 11:38, Ian Malone a écrit : and holding up the release for what is basically a triviality seems a bit silly. The perception correct UTF-8 handling is a triviality that should be worked on at some later date is the reason we have this breakage now. No, the exact spelling of the release name is a triviality when there is a typographically acceptable alternative. Yet another post on the devel list which seeks to cast the previous poster in the worst possible light when there might be a more rational interpretation of what they wrote. Can people try and be a little bit more reasonable and less combative maybe? -- imalone http://ibmalone.blogspot.co.uk -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: fedora release name problem
Le Mar 19 mars 2013 12:27, Ian Malone a écrit : On 19 March 2013 11:24, Nicolas Mailhot nicolas.mail...@laposte.net wrote: Le Mar 19 mars 2013 11:38, Ian Malone a écrit : and holding up the release for what is basically a triviality seems a bit silly. The perception correct UTF-8 handling is a triviality that should be worked on at some later date is the reason we have this breakage now. No, the exact spelling of the release name is a triviality when there is a typographically acceptable alternative. Yet another post on the devel list which seeks to cast the previous poster in the worst possible light when there might be a more rational interpretation of what they wrote. Can people try and be a little bit more reasonable and less combative maybe? Pot, met kettle. Don't ask others to be less combative when you choose such a loaded word as triviality to qualify some problem they care about. -- Nicolas Mailhot -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: fedora release name problem
On Mon, 2013-03-18 at 23:56 +, Sérgio Basto wrote: Could we consider change release name from Schrödinger's Cat to Schrodingers Cat or other name that not have this additional problem ? In my opinion, it makes sense to distinguish between code and content. When compared with 10-15 years ago, it's my perception that most applications that nowadays process user visible content are able to deal with international characters. This is a great advancement. However, code is usually limited to ASCII. We cannot use Umlauts in variable names in most programming languages. It's no surprise to me that many programmer tools have similar limitation. The Fedora release name is part of the code, and also used by programmer or administrative tools to process it. What we are facing here is the question: Are we ready to introduce non-ASCII characters into the code and tool level?. It seems like the answer is not yet. While I agree it cannot hurt to be able to support umlauts and special characters everywhere, supporting it at the code and tool level seems like a challenge, as we are learning. I don't agree to that argument that it must be fixed immediately, because it's not required to correctly process user visible content. And if you are looking for a more formal justification: Consistently support international and special characters in Fedora release tools sounds like a Fedora Feature to me. But we are already past the Feature Freeze date. So, if you would like to see this as a priority, then propose to make it a future Fedora Feature and offer to work on it. But for this round, it seems too late. I'd like to propose a compromise for the release name. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger%27s_cat I'm learning that Schrödinger was Austrian. Austria uses German language. The german equivalent of Schrödinger's Cat is Schrödingers Katze. No apostrophe is being used here. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dingers_Katze And it's quite common to replace the ö umlaut with oe, for example in email addresses. Because of the above, I propose that we use the following string for the Fedora 19 release name: Schroedingers Katze Regards Kai -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: fedora release name problem
Dne 19.3.2013 12:23, Ian Malone napsal(a): On 19 March 2013 11:03, Marc Deop i Argemí m...@marcdeop.com wrote: On Tuesday 19 March 2013 09:27:16 Christof Damian wrote: Fixing an apostrophe – no Umlaut, not apostrophe. Schrödinger*'*s Cat I tried to visualize the apostrophe, but it's not that visible anyway ;) Vít -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: fedora release name problem
On 19 March 2013 11:41, Nicolas Mailhot nicolas.mail...@laposte.net wrote: Le Mar 19 mars 2013 12:27, Ian Malone a écrit : On 19 March 2013 11:24, Nicolas Mailhot nicolas.mail...@laposte.net wrote: Le Mar 19 mars 2013 11:38, Ian Malone a écrit : and holding up the release for what is basically a triviality seems a bit silly. The perception correct UTF-8 handling is a triviality that should be worked on at some later date is the reason we have this breakage now. No, the exact spelling of the release name is a triviality when there is a typographically acceptable alternative. Yet another post on the devel list which seeks to cast the previous poster in the worst possible light when there might be a more rational interpretation of what they wrote. Can people try and be a little bit more reasonable and less combative maybe? Pot, met kettle. Don't ask others to be less combative when you choose such a loaded word as triviality to qualify some problem they care about. Are you talking about the choice of ö versus 'oe' as a workaround or something else? Because what you said was that I was calling UTF-8 support a triviality, which I didn't. And you've ignored my attempt to clarify that instead following up with a playground retort And this goes on and on on this list. It generates endless circular discussions which degenerate into name calling and does nothing more useful than waste people's time and entrench their positions. For what it's worth, I spent a while years ago helping out with issues of UTF-8 support in Vorbis. I filled the odd bug for UTF-8 emacs support in Fedora. It is something I do care about. -- imalone http://ibmalone.blogspot.co.uk -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: fedora release name problem
On 19 March 2013 12:20, Vít Ondruch vondr...@redhat.com wrote: Dne 19.3.2013 12:23, Ian Malone napsal(a): On 19 March 2013 11:03, Marc Deop i Argemí m...@marcdeop.com wrote: On Tuesday 19 March 2013 09:27:16 Christof Damian wrote: Fixing an apostrophe – no Umlaut, not apostrophe. Schrödinger*'*s Cat I tried to visualize the apostrophe, but it's not that visible anyway ;) Ah, I missed that bit. It seems this name is as good at breaking assumptions as the original paradox. -- imalone http://ibmalone.blogspot.co.uk -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: fedora release name problem
On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 11:49 AM, Kai Engert k...@kuix.de wrote: On Mon, 2013-03-18 at 23:56 +, Sérgio Basto wrote: Could we consider change release name from Schrödinger's Cat to Schrodingers Cat or other name that not have this additional problem ? In my opinion, it makes sense to distinguish between code and content. When compared with 10-15 years ago, it's my perception that most applications that nowadays process user visible content are able to deal with international characters. This is a great advancement. However, code is usually limited to ASCII. We cannot use Umlauts in variable names in most programming languages. It's no surprise to me that many programmer tools have similar limitation. The Fedora release name is part of the code, and also used by programmer or administrative tools to process it. What we are facing here is the question: Are we ready to introduce non-ASCII characters into the code and tool level?. It seems like the answer is not yet. Which is a bug that needs to be fixed, it could even be a security bug (but you'd need to be root and would have other problems). The Fedora Release name is not part of the code how ever you try and spin it. Ultimately there's no point putting a whole lot of points across. It comes down to two things: 1) FESCo deciding how they want to deal with it (I suggest changing it to ascii for alpha, and back straight after to ensure it has lots of testing up to beta) 2) when and how quickly the bug can be fixed. The code is used by lots of other orgs all over the world, it needs to be robust. Peter -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: fedora release name problem
Once upon a time, G.Wolfe Woodbury redwo...@gmail.com said: I disagree. This particular problem points out a problem that is only going to become more of a problem as the internationalization of software increases. Not everything is ASCII or English, and not defensively programming for such cases is short-sighted. Okay, but I agree with Adam. If somebody wants to add support of UTF-8 (and arbitrary characters that need quoting like an apostrophe) in the boot loader and all associated tools, the Feature deadline has passed. There should have been a test plan, fallback, etc. This is a trivial thing to hold up a whole distribution release (even test releases), especially when there may be bugs lurking in many unknown places. Simplify the name for this release, and somebody can submit a Feature and do proper testing/bug fixing/etc. for a future release (if and when another name with non ASCII alphanumeric characters is chosen). -- Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: fedora release name problem
- Original Message - Once upon a time, G.Wolfe Woodbury redwo...@gmail.com said: I disagree. This particular problem points out a problem that is only going to become more of a problem as the internationalization of software increases. Not everything is ASCII or English, and not defensively programming for such cases is short-sighted. Okay, but I agree with Adam. If somebody wants to add support of UTF-8 (and arbitrary characters that need quoting like an apostrophe) in the boot loader and all associated tools, the Feature deadline has passed. There should have been a test plan, fallback, etc. This is a trivial thing to hold up a whole distribution release (even test releases), especially when there may be bugs lurking in many unknown places. Simplify the name for this release, and somebody can submit a Feature and do proper testing/bug fixing/etc. for a future release (if and when another name with non ASCII alphanumeric characters is chosen). +1! Jaroslav -- Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: fedora release name problem
Jaroslav Reznik wrote: - Original Message - Once upon a time, G.Wolfe Woodbury redwo...@gmail.com said: submit a Feature and do proper testing/bug fixing/etc. for a future release (if and when another name with non ASCII alphanumeric characters is chosen). +1! Jaroslav What do you mean, if and when? I can already see the next Release Name page shaping up with Motörhead's Moshpit is a name with non ASCII alphanumeric characters, like ... -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: fedora release name problem
On Tue, 2013-03-19 at 12:23 +0100, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: Le Mar 19 mars 2013 09:31, Adam Williamson a écrit : I don't object at all to fixing UTF-8 issues, but it seems needlessly stressful to force ourselves to do so as a part of release validation, with booby traps exploding all around us. It's the kind of thing that can easily be worked on in a less stressful manner. And Fedora switched to UTF-8 by default when exactly (was it even Fedora or a RHL decision)? Red Hat Linux 8.0: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Hat_Linux -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: fedora release name problem
From: Richard W.M. Jones rjo...@redhat.com An interesting question is: Why don't we try out the new release name early on in Rawhide. ie. we would change the release name now to whatever F20 is going to be + (Rawhide). Wouldn't that give us a lot more time to test and fix? That seems like a great idea ... and it also adds in a test for handling parenthesis. I can't imagine how they'd pose a problem, but clearly nobody foresaw this train coming either. In fact, maybe should be something like: F20name + (Rawhide); touch /tmp/little-bobby-tables I joke of course ... sort of. ;-) -- John Florian -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: fedora release name problem
Kai Engert wrote: The Fedora release name is part of the code Is it? What is its technical function then? What would break if two releases were to have the same name but different numbers? Are programs supposed to compare release names to determine which release they're looking at? All comparisons I've seen have used the number, not the name. There have been discussions about dropping release names. The argument for that seemed to be that the name has no function and is mostly a waste of time. If the name were part of the code, then dropping it would have required code changes left and right. As I understand it Fedora has release names because people like to see them displayed in various places. That means they are user-visible content. Björn Persson signature.asc Description: PGP signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: fedora release name problem
On 19 Mar 2013 14:33, john.flor...@dart.biz wrote: From: Richard W.M. Jones rjo...@redhat.com An interesting question is: Why don't we try out the new release name early on in Rawhide. ie. we would change the release name now to whatever F20 is going to be + (Rawhide). Wouldn't that give us a lot more time to test and fix? That seems like a great idea ... and it also adds in a test for handling parenthesis. I can't imagine how they'd pose a problem, but clearly nobody foresaw this train coming either. Err the fedora 19 voting for names started around the release of F18 alpha. Its been set as this for around 6 months already, I suspect its only become an issue with people starting to create images etc. Peter Peter -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: fedora release name problem
On Mon, 2013-03-18 at 23:11 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: On 18/03/13 10:22 PM, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 05:56:28PM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: On Mon, 2013-03-18 at 18:34 -0600, Kevin Fenzi wrote: On Mon, 18 Mar 2013 23:56:28 + Sérgio Basto ser...@serjux.com wrote: Hi, For the first time, Fedora release name have non-ascii and pelican characters which https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=922433 Could we consider change release name from Schrödinger's Cat to Schrodingers Cat or other name that not have this additional problem ? I'd rather we fix things to handle this case than paper it over by changing it. +1 I would very much like that we paper it over right now, unless you propose to discover and fix every single problem it causes by tomorrow, when I want us to start rolling TC images. If by right now you mean until we get TC out (or even until we get alpha out), I wouldn't be opposed to that. These sort of bugs really are something that need to be fixed and this release name is a good candidate for doing so... but the time from alpha to beta is appropriate for fixing bugs so it's okay if we defer fixing them for a little while. -Toshio who's been working on various iterations of a fix for this in the python3 package[1] for a few days Kuratomi Well, look, my point is that sometimes our commitment to 'fixing things the right way' appears to verge on bloody masochism. You want to set up a side project to spin some images with crazy release names and see what breaks and fix that, then you know, go for it. But I'm trying to ship an operating system that works here, and leaving something we know is causing all kinds of problems in the problematic state just so we can keep finding exciting new problems to fix does not suffuse me with joy. If we have to compromise on just papering it over for Alpha, I mean, _fine_. But seriously: sometimes papering it over is just the right thing to do. (nods) If we were *really* masochistic, the release name would contain unicode code points from outside the BMP i.e. 65535 e.g. the musical notation characters. I, for one, am not that masochistic. Dave -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: fedora release name problem
On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 10:47 AM, David Malcolm dmalc...@redhat.com wrote: On Mon, 2013-03-18 at 23:11 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: On 18/03/13 10:22 PM, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 05:56:28PM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: On Mon, 2013-03-18 at 18:34 -0600, Kevin Fenzi wrote: On Mon, 18 Mar 2013 23:56:28 + Sérgio Basto ser...@serjux.com wrote: Hi, For the first time, Fedora release name have non-ascii and pelican characters which https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=922433 Could we consider change release name from Schrödinger's Cat to Schrodingers Cat or other name that not have this additional problem ? I'd rather we fix things to handle this case than paper it over by changing it. +1 I would very much like that we paper it over right now, unless you propose to discover and fix every single problem it causes by tomorrow, when I want us to start rolling TC images. If by right now you mean until we get TC out (or even until we get alpha out), I wouldn't be opposed to that. These sort of bugs really are something that need to be fixed and this release name is a good candidate for doing so... but the time from alpha to beta is appropriate for fixing bugs so it's okay if we defer fixing them for a little while. -Toshio who's been working on various iterations of a fix for this in the python3 package[1] for a few days Kuratomi Well, look, my point is that sometimes our commitment to 'fixing things the right way' appears to verge on bloody masochism. You want to set up a side project to spin some images with crazy release names and see what breaks and fix that, then you know, go for it. But I'm trying to ship an operating system that works here, and leaving something we know is causing all kinds of problems in the problematic state just so we can keep finding exciting new problems to fix does not suffuse me with joy. If we have to compromise on just papering it over for Alpha, I mean, _fine_. But seriously: sometimes papering it over is just the right thing to do. (nods) If we were *really* masochistic, the release name would contain unicode code points from outside the BMP i.e. 65535 e.g. the musical notation characters. I, for one, am not that masochistic. Dave -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel It wouldn't be so bad. Just have everything BuildRequires: lilypond. . . -J -- http://cecinestpasunefromage.wordpress.com/ in your fear, seek only peace in your fear, seek only love -d. bowie -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: fedora release name problem
On 19/03/13 02:22 AM, Gerd Hoffmann wrote: On 03/19/13 01:56, Adam Williamson wrote: This bug just *smells* like one of those which will pop up again and again and again causing carnage wherever it shows up. Shouldn't be worse than F18 where we slipped how many weeks? Or was it even months in the end? Of course not, but that's kinda different. In the one case, the long slip bought us an entirely rewritten installer. In this case, any potential slip buys us...a prettified release name. Gee, willikers, watch me trying to restrain my excitement. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: fedora release name problem
- Original Message - On 19 Mar 2013 14:33, john.flor...@dart.biz wrote: From: Richard W.M. Jones rjo...@redhat.com An interesting question is: Why don't we try out the new release name early on in Rawhide. ie. we would change the release name now to whatever F20 is going to be + (Rawhide). Wouldn't that give us a lot more time to test and fix? That seems like a great idea ... and it also adds in a test for handling parenthesis. I can't imagine how they'd pose a problem, but clearly nobody foresaw this train coming either. Err the fedora 19 voting for names started around the release of F18 alpha. Its been set as this for around 6 months already, I suspect its only become an issue with people starting to create images etc. I think notting joked about it when the name was announced... Well, it's not a joke anymore ;-) As we are still on the same spot, without conclusion I created FESCo ticket [1] as it's one of the Test Composes blocker... Jaroslav [1] https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1102 Peter Peter -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: fedora release name problem
On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 01:08:35PM -, Paul Flo Williams wrote: Jaroslav Reznik wrote: - Original Message - Once upon a time, G.Wolfe Woodbury redwo...@gmail.com said: submit a Feature and do proper testing/bug fixing/etc. for a future release (if and when another name with non ASCII alphanumeric characters is chosen). +1! Jaroslav What do you mean, if and when? I can already see the next Release Name page shaping up with Motörhead's Moshpit is a name with non ASCII alphanumeric characters, like ... I'm voting for ☃. Rich. -- Richard Jones, Virtualization Group, Red Hat http://people.redhat.com/~rjones Read my programming blog: http://rwmj.wordpress.com Fedora now supports 80 OCaml packages (the OPEN alternative to F#) -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: fedora release name problem
2013/3/19 Richard W.M. Jones rjo...@redhat.com I'm voting for ☃. What about ? -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: fedora release name problem
On 19/03/13 08:30 AM, Peter Robinson wrote: On 19 Mar 2013 14:33, john.flor...@dart.biz mailto:john.flor...@dart.biz wrote: From: Richard W.M. Jones rjo...@redhat.com mailto:rjo...@redhat.com An interesting question is: Why don't we try out the new release name early on in Rawhide. ie. we would change the release name now to whatever F20 is going to be + (Rawhide). Wouldn't that give us a lot more time to test and fix? That seems like a great idea ... and it also adds in a test for handling parenthesis. I can't imagine how they'd pose a problem, but clearly nobody foresaw this train coming either. Err the fedora 19 voting for names started around the release of F18 alpha. Its been set as this for around 6 months already, I suspect its only become an issue with people starting to create images etc. It isn't applied anywhere till branch. Rawhide always uses the release name 'Rawhide'. Even though it's voted on a long way ahead of time, the new release name is only applied in the tree at branch time. Several people were using Rawhide considerably in advance of branching - including myself - and the problems showed up right when we branched and the new fedora-release package was rolled. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: fedora release name problem
How about spending time and energy on fixing the bugs rather then bike shed over whether we should apply a duct tape or not? -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: fedora release name problem
Once upon a time, drago01 drag...@gmail.com said: How about spending time and energy on fixing the bugs rather then bike shed over whether we should apply a duct tape or not? The problem is that there are possibly many unknown bugs that could hold up building composes, and it is just about time for composes to start going out the door. I don't feel it is worth holding up composes over a name that can easily be changed. Repeating what was said earlier: the proper way to do this is to treat it like a feature (making all release name handlers UTF-8 and shell quote safe), and start working on it now for F20. -- Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: fedora release name problem
On Mon, 18 Mar 2013 23:56:28 + Sérgio Basto ser...@serjux.com wrote: Hi, For the first time, Fedora release name have non-ascii and pelican characters which https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=922433 Could we consider change release name from Schrödinger's Cat to Schrodingers Cat or other name that not have this additional problem ? I'd rather we fix things to handle this case than paper it over by changing it. kevin signature.asc Description: PGP signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: fedora release name problem
On Mon, 2013-03-18 at 18:34 -0600, Kevin Fenzi wrote: On Mon, 18 Mar 2013 23:56:28 + Sérgio Basto ser...@serjux.com wrote: Hi, For the first time, Fedora release name have non-ascii and pelican characters which https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=922433 Could we consider change release name from Schrödinger's Cat to Schrodingers Cat or other name that not have this additional problem ? I'd rather we fix things to handle this case than paper it over by changing it. I would very much like that we paper it over right now, unless you propose to discover and fix every single problem it causes by tomorrow, when I want us to start rolling TC images. This bug just *smells* like one of those which will pop up again and again and again causing carnage wherever it shows up. I'm not sure I want to have to deal with that crap while also trying to fix things we *don't* have a known, straightforward workaround for. I know we want to Fix Things The Right Way and Contribute Upstream and Be Good Engineers and blah, but there's a damn limit. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: fedora release name problem
On Mar 18, 2013, at 6:56 PM, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: This bug just *smells* like one of those which will pop up again and again and again causing carnage wherever it shows up. I think so. I expect we'll find issues with isolinux, grub, livecd-tools, liveusb-creator. It could be hilarious to see how many problems this causes. But I'll bet $3.50 that by week 4 QA people start feeling like the cat in the box, and will be looking for a way to release the gas themselves. I'm not sure I want to have to deal with that crap while also trying to fix things we *don't* have a known, straightforward workaround for. Right. It's always a case of trying to find out where the bodies are buried for each release. This like adding a whole separate cemetery of unknown size and depth. It could be one of those town of 1000 varieties, or it could end up like one in the French Quarter where there's always room for one more. And is fixing this apostrophe issue going to have some clear benefit anywhere else? It's 2013, this is the 19th release of Fedora, and this is the first time it's come up? Chris Murphy -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: fedora release name problem
Sérgio Basto sergio at serjux.com writes: For the first time, Fedora release name have non-ascii and pelican characters which https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=922433 Could we consider change release name from Schrödinger's Cat to Schrodingers Cat or other name that not have this additional problem ? If we do, shouldn't there be another vote asking if it's okay to make this change, in light of the possible release delay? It's not the name that was originally voted for. (I'm not trying to be difficult - I was one of those who voted against having a release name, based on the belief that it was a waste of time, although I didn't imagine that the waste would include QA and developers.) If the release name only needs to apply to the Final release, the name could be temporarily changed to Schrodingers Cat for Alpha if it takes longer to hold the vote. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: fedora release name problem
On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 10:44 PM, Andre Robatino robat...@fedoraproject.org wrote: Sérgio Basto sergio at serjux.com writes: For the first time, Fedora release name have non-ascii and pelican characters which https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=922433 Could we consider change release name from Schrödinger's Cat to Schrodingers Cat or other name that not have this additional problem ? If we do, shouldn't there be another vote asking if it's okay to make this change, in light of the possible release delay? It's not the name that was originally voted for. (I'm not trying to be difficult - I was one of those who voted against having a release name, based on the belief that it was a waste of time, although I didn't imagine that the waste would include QA and developers.) If the release name only needs to apply to the Final release, the name could be temporarily changed to Schrodingers Cat for Alpha if it takes longer to hold the vote. I suppose Greebo is right off the list? To go along with the Ogg Vrobis, and other Terry Pratchett references? To quote a Terry Pratchett story, the possible staes of a cat in a box are actually alive, dead, or bloody furious, which is what the developers are going to be when they encounter extraneous punction in basic system configuration files. They files are being parsed by /bin/sh in ./configure scripts and Makefiles, not a complex data format. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: fedora release name problem
On Mar 18, 2013, at 8:44 PM, Andre Robatino robat...@fedoraproject.org wrote: If we do, shouldn't there be another vote asking if it's okay to make this change, in light of the possible release delay? Definitely not. There is equivalent that doesn't require apostrophe or umlaut (diaeresis) characters. Legal will have a far less difficult time with this than flat out incorrect spellings, or new names. It's not the name that was originally voted for. Schrodinger is not the man's name, and is the wrong solution. Schroedinger is as acceptable as Schrödinger. If the release name only needs to apply to the Final release, the name could be temporarily changed to Schrodingers Cat for Alpha if it takes longer to hold the vote. I disagree any duration of the incorrect spelling of a surname is acceptable. For a private/closed project it might be tolerated for internal distribution only, but I'm skeptical. For a public project I don't think it's appropriate. Chris Murphy -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: fedora release name problem
On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 05:56:28PM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: On Mon, 2013-03-18 at 18:34 -0600, Kevin Fenzi wrote: On Mon, 18 Mar 2013 23:56:28 + Sérgio Basto ser...@serjux.com wrote: Hi, For the first time, Fedora release name have non-ascii and pelican characters which https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=922433 Could we consider change release name from Schrödinger's Cat to Schrodingers Cat or other name that not have this additional problem ? I'd rather we fix things to handle this case than paper it over by changing it. +1 I would very much like that we paper it over right now, unless you propose to discover and fix every single problem it causes by tomorrow, when I want us to start rolling TC images. If by right now you mean until we get TC out (or even until we get alpha out), I wouldn't be opposed to that. These sort of bugs really are something that need to be fixed and this release name is a good candidate for doing so... but the time from alpha to beta is appropriate for fixing bugs so it's okay if we defer fixing them for a little while. -Toshio who's been working on various iterations of a fix for this in the python3 package[1] for a few days Kuratomi .. [1]_: http://bugs.python.org/issue17429 pgpHVbqk9oqN7.pgp Description: PGP signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
