Re: [tdf-discuss] OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict

[mjollnir66]

Just seen with the System IT team : 

Unzipping every OOXML attachment and checking a tag inside a specific XML file 
could be done by script. 
This would be done on the incoming email server. 
We would choose a behaviour depending on the result, wether the file is strict 
OOXML or transitionnal OOXML. 

As we never had this kind of need before, it's costy in matter of ingeneering 
time. 

If/when you have information about how to dinstinguish transitionnal from 
strict OOXML, I would be glad to hear from it. 

Then I'll ask my direction if we can dig this (and update the thread whatever 
the answer is). 

Thank you again for your care and your expertise. 

Best Regards. 

M. 

- Mail original -

De: "Italo Vignoli" <it...@libreoffice.org> 
À: discuss@documentfoundation.org 
Envoyé: Jeudi 28 Avril 2016 14:37:08 
Objet: Re: [tdf-discuss] OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict 

On 28/04/2016 09:15, mjollni...@laposte.net wrote: 

> The question is, how do we enforce the rules with the greatest 
> efficiency possible. 

Unfortunately, interoperability is strictly related to the user 
behaviour, and should become a topic for students in schools. Users 
should learn how to create interoperable documents, not only related to 
fonts but also to other document elements. 

> In my opinion, an automatic reply of the administration ingoing email 
> platform would be the best solution. It would reply automatically to 
> anyone who sends an email with a transitionnal OOXML attached. This 
> email would be written very carefully whith information about IGR v2, 
> about the 2 versions of OOXML and about what are the best practices 
> to communicate with a french administration (ODF). 

This could educate users, over the very long term (as most users will 
completely ignore the remark). 

> Therefore is the following question : What is the easiest way to know 
> wether a file is written in strict OOXML or not ? 

I am investigating the issue myself, as I will talk to an audience of 
public administration employees in Italy in two weeks, and I will have 
to cover the topic. 

> Or maybe just checking if a single file exists or not would tell us 
> if the file is strict or transitionnal ? 

For sure, MS Office 2013 used to have huge problems in handling OOXML 
Strict: http://www.italovignoli.org/2014/02/redmond-we-have-a-problem/. 

Microsoft answer on the topic is that I did something wrong as a user, 
because I created some content before saving the OOXML Strict, while MS 
Office defaults to OOXML Transitional when you enter contents (so, you 
cannot save as OOXML Strict a document with contents). 

By the way, this was scrutinized by the UK Cabinet Office. 

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Re: [tdf-discuss] OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict

[Italo Vignoli]

On 28/04/2016 09:15, mjollni...@laposte.net wrote:

> The question is, how do we enforce the rules with the greatest 
> efficiency possible.

Unfortunately, interoperability is strictly related to the user
behaviour, and should become a topic for students in schools. Users
should learn how to create interoperable documents, not only related to
fonts but also to other document elements.

> In my opinion, an automatic reply of the administration ingoing email
> platform would be the best solution. It would reply automatically to
> anyone who sends an email with a transitionnal OOXML attached. This
> email would be written very carefully whith information about IGR v2,
> about the 2 versions of OOXML and about what are the best practices
> to communicate with a french administration (ODF).

This could educate users, over the very long term (as most users will
completely ignore the remark).

> Therefore is the following question : What is the easiest way to know
> wether a file is written in strict OOXML or not ?

I am investigating the issue myself, as I will talk to an audience of
public administration employees in Italy in two weeks, and I will have
to cover the topic.

> Or maybe just checking if a single file exists or not would tell us 
> if the file is strict or transitionnal ?

For sure, MS Office 2013 used to have huge problems in handling OOXML
Strict: http://www.italovignoli.org/2014/02/redmond-we-have-a-problem/.

Microsoft answer on the topic is that I did something wrong as a user,
because I created some content before saving the OOXML Strict, while MS
Office defaults to OOXML Transitional when you enter contents (so, you
cannot save as OOXML Strict a document with contents).

By the way, this was scrutinized by the UK Cabinet Office.

-- 
Italo Vignoli - LibreOffice Marketing & PR
mobile +39.348.5653829 - email / jabber it...@libreoffice.org
hangout / jabber italo.vign...@gmail.com - skype italovignoli
GPG Key ID - 0xAAB8D5C0
DB75 1534 3FD0 EA5F 56B5 FDA6 DE82 934C AAB8 D5C0

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Re: [tdf-discuss] OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict

[Rob Pearson]

At my organisation the email system makes a copy of every email with an 
editable document attached (odf, ooxml and others)  that is sent or 
received.  It copies them into another email account for a simply way to 
get a feel of what's going in-out.  I too would also like to know if 
there is a tool to parse attachments to determine whether their format 
is strict or transitional.


On 28/04/16 7:15 PM, mjollni...@laposte.net wrote:

Thank you very much for those informations.
I did not succeed in getting them anywhere but here.
They are going to be very useful (i'll translate them on the french discuss 
forum too)

One last thing about this matter of OOXML.

No average user is going to know (nor to care) about which OOXML version he is 
using.
And, 99,99% of the time, it's going to be transitionnal OOXML.
Which is un-recommended by law now, and which has to change whithin 3 years max.

The question is, how do we enforce the rules with the greatest efficiency 
possible.

In my opinion, an automatic reply of the administration ingoing email platform 
would be the best solution.
It would reply automatically to anyone who sends an email with a transitionnal 
OOXML attached.
This email would be written very carefully whith information about IGR v2, 
about the 2 versions of OOXML and about what are the best practices to 
communicate with a french administration (ODF).

I'm not sure if it can be done technically, but I'm going to know it soon. If 
anyone has a better idea, please don't hesitate to tell.

Therefore is the following question :
What is the easiest way to know wether a file is written in strict OOXML or not 
?

Surely we will have to unzip and check something in the OOXML file.

Any way to do it without the need of unzipping it ?
(check file property or check file header)

If not, is there a single file in which we could check a tag for every kind of 
OOXML file (docx, pptx, xlsx..) ?
(Unzip. Open xxx.xml. Find  tag. If value NEQ [xmlstrict] then send email 
to sender )

Or would we be obliged to have a different method for every kind of OOXML files.
(Unzip. In case of filename ends with docx Open xxx.xml. Find  tag. If 
value NEQ [xmlstrict] then send email to sender. In case of filename ends with xlsx 
[...] )

Or maybe just checking if a single file exists or not would tell us if the file 
is strict or transitionnal ?



- Mail original -

De: "Italo Vignoli" <it...@libreoffice.org>
À: discuss@documentfoundation.org
Envoyé: Mercredi 27 Avril 2016 19:39:14
Objet: Re: [tdf-discuss] OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict

On 26/04/2016 12:46, mjollni...@laposte.net wrote:


Is it correct to say that the Transitionnal OOXML format is not
compliant with any international standard or norm ? Neither ECMA, nor
ISO, nor anything but MS$ itself.

OOXML Transitional is not the standard format, but a tweaked version of
OOXML integrating bynary blobs and other non standard components, which
was supposed to help the transition from the legacy file formats to
OOXML Strict (which is the only standard file format).


If so, Does this means that NO version of MS$ office (from 2010 to
the actual) writes BY DEFAULT in a standardized or normalised format.
(cf.
https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc179191%28v=office.16%29.aspx
for default formats)

Yes. Every Microsoft Office version since 2007 defaults to OOXML
Transitional, implementing a slightly different version of the OOXML
Transitional non standard file format.

Only MS Office 2013 and MS Office 2016 implement OOXML Strict, with a
process that makes it virtually impossible for any normal user to get a
real OOXML Strict file format (the user should save the document using
the OOXML Strict option - listed as last of the "save as" options -
before writing a single character).

Because of this behaviour which intentionally prevents the creation of
OOXML Strict files, the number of OOXML Strict files available is close
to zero.

In addition, Microsoft fonts used as default by MS Office since 2007 -
known as C-Fonts or Calibri, Cambria, Candara, Consolas, Constantia and
Corbel) - can only be used by MS Office licensed customers, as they are
included in MS Office EULA, to add another level of incompatibility.


Is anyone confident enough in his knowledge of OOXML to acknowledge
this ? Maybe this place is not the best one to ask the question ? If
so, would please somebody advice me the best place to post the
question ?

I am confident enough to answer most questions about OOXML issues.

Please do note that after the UK decision on July 22, 2014, not even
Microsoft has dared to define OOXML as standard in public, because it is
perfectly clear that the file format is not standard and will never be a
standard (after nine years and four different implementations of OOXML
Transitional, which was supposed to last a maximum of two MS Office
versions).



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Re: [tdf-discuss] OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict

[Mike Hall]

On 28/04/2016 01:39, Italo Vignoli wrote:

I do not know, as I am not a developer. I have configured my instance of
LibreOffice to replace Calibri and Cambria with Carlito and Caladea
(there is a replacement table in Options > LibreOffice > Fonts). I will
ask developers is this specific replacement, given the pervasiveness of
Calibri and Cambria, can be set as a pre-defined option.
Again, that's good information Italo, though the practice looks a bit 
awkward (I can see that the font is being replaced, but the original 
font is shown as being in use even when you select something, right 
click and select characters.)
Just thinking aloud, interoperability seems such an important selling 
point for LO that IMHO it needs a little project to decide what might be 
best. I'm thinking of an 'interoperability' configuration option which 
those organisations and individuals that want to be certain their 
documents conform to standards can set to constrain their documents to 
maximise interoperability (eg not able to save to non-standard formats, 
not able to use fonts which are not interoperable). This definitely 
needs to be an option, not the default, but I can see it having 
significant appeal to those organisations, especially local and national 
governments, who have declared that they conform. You should still be 
able to open non-standard documents.

--
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Re: [tdf-discuss] OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict

[mjollnir66]

Thank you very much for those informations. 
I did not succeed in getting them anywhere but here. 
They are going to be very useful (i'll translate them on the french discuss 
forum too) 

One last thing about this matter of OOXML. 

No average user is going to know (nor to care) about which OOXML version he is 
using. 
And, 99,99% of the time, it's going to be transitionnal OOXML. 
Which is un-recommended by law now, and which has to change whithin 3 years 
max. 

The question is, how do we enforce the rules with the greatest efficiency 
possible. 

In my opinion, an automatic reply of the administration ingoing email platform 
would be the best solution. 
It would reply automatically to anyone who sends an email with a transitionnal 
OOXML attached. 
This email would be written very carefully whith information about IGR v2, 
about the 2 versions of OOXML and about what are the best practices to 
communicate with a french administration (ODF). 

I'm not sure if it can be done technically, but I'm going to know it soon. If 
anyone has a better idea, please don't hesitate to tell. 

Therefore is the following question : 
What is the easiest way to know wether a file is written in strict OOXML or not 
? 

Surely we will have to unzip and check something in the OOXML file. 

Any way to do it without the need of unzipping it ? 
(check file property or check file header) 

If not, is there a single file in which we could check a tag for every kind of 
OOXML file (docx, pptx, xlsx..) ? 
(Unzip. Open xxx.xml. Find  tag. If value NEQ [xmlstrict] then send email 
to sender ) 

Or would we be obliged to have a different method for every kind of OOXML 
files. 
(Unzip. In case of filename ends with docx Open xxx.xml. Find  tag. If 
value NEQ [xmlstrict] then send email to sender. In case of filename ends with 
xlsx [...] ) 

Or maybe just checking if a single file exists or not would tell us if the file 
is strict or transitionnal ? 



- Mail original -

De: "Italo Vignoli" <it...@libreoffice.org> 
À: discuss@documentfoundation.org 
Envoyé: Mercredi 27 Avril 2016 19:39:14 
Objet: Re: [tdf-discuss] OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict 

On 26/04/2016 12:46, mjollni...@laposte.net wrote: 

> Is it correct to say that the Transitionnal OOXML format is not 
> compliant with any international standard or norm ? Neither ECMA, nor 
> ISO, nor anything but MS$ itself. 

OOXML Transitional is not the standard format, but a tweaked version of 
OOXML integrating bynary blobs and other non standard components, which 
was supposed to help the transition from the legacy file formats to 
OOXML Strict (which is the only standard file format). 

> If so, Does this means that NO version of MS$ office (from 2010 to 
> the actual) writes BY DEFAULT in a standardized or normalised format. 
> (cf. 
> https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc179191%28v=office.16%29.aspx 
> for default formats) 

Yes. Every Microsoft Office version since 2007 defaults to OOXML 
Transitional, implementing a slightly different version of the OOXML 
Transitional non standard file format. 

Only MS Office 2013 and MS Office 2016 implement OOXML Strict, with a 
process that makes it virtually impossible for any normal user to get a 
real OOXML Strict file format (the user should save the document using 
the OOXML Strict option - listed as last of the "save as" options - 
before writing a single character). 

Because of this behaviour which intentionally prevents the creation of 
OOXML Strict files, the number of OOXML Strict files available is close 
to zero. 

In addition, Microsoft fonts used as default by MS Office since 2007 - 
known as C-Fonts or Calibri, Cambria, Candara, Consolas, Constantia and 
Corbel) - can only be used by MS Office licensed customers, as they are 
included in MS Office EULA, to add another level of incompatibility. 

> Is anyone confident enough in his knowledge of OOXML to acknowledge 
> this ? Maybe this place is not the best one to ask the question ? If 
> so, would please somebody advice me the best place to post the 
> question ? 

I am confident enough to answer most questions about OOXML issues. 

Please do note that after the UK decision on July 22, 2014, not even 
Microsoft has dared to define OOXML as standard in public, because it is 
perfectly clear that the file format is not standard and will never be a 
standard (after nine years and four different implementations of OOXML 
Transitional, which was supposed to last a maximum of two MS Office 
versions). 

-- 
Italo Vignoli - LibreOffice Marketing & PR 
mobile +39.348.5653829 - email / jabber it...@libreoffice.org 
hangout / jabber italo.vign...@gmail.com - skype italovignoli 
GPG Key ID - 0xAAB8D5C0 
DB75 1534 3FD0 EA5F 56B5 FDA6 DE82 934C AAB8 D5C0 

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Re: [tdf-discuss] OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict

[Joel Madero]

>> If you are promoting LO because it provides better interoperability,
>> shouldn't they be configured as equivalents? You could even prompt users
>> on save. Would this break something?
> I do not know, as I am not a developer. I have configured my instance of
> LibreOffice to replace Calibri and Cambria with Carlito and Caladea
> (there is a replacement table in Options > LibreOffice > Fonts). I will
> ask developers is this specific replacement, given the pervasiveness of
> Calibri and Cambria, can be set as a pre-defined option.
IMHO this isn't a good thing. Lots of people expect that LibreOffice
would just use the font that is installed. So, for those users using
LibreOffice in Windows or in OSX who have access to the MSO fonts, would
definitely expect that opening a document that someone else sends your
way open with the correct fonts applied.

We already have enough issues with interoperability with MS Office -
going out of our way to add yet another (a replacement font even if you
have the correct font installed presumably legally) seems like asking
for trouble.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the replacement table but if it's "replace,
even if font is installed" - I'm no fan.


Best,
Joel

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Re: [tdf-discuss] OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict

[Mike Hall]

On 27/04/2016 21:57, Italo Vignoli wrote:

In fact, they are provided as equivalents, although the software is not
configured to handle them as equivalents.
If you are promoting LO because it provides better interoperability, 
shouldn't they be configured as equivalents? You could even prompt users 
on save. Would this break something?



--
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Re: [tdf-discuss] OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict

[Italo Vignoli]

On 27/04/2016 22:55, Simon Phipps wrote:

> In fact it makes me wonder if these could be the default equivalents for
> the C-fonts in LibreOffice?

In fact, they are provided as equivalents, although the software is not
configured to handle them as equivalents.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict

[Simon Phipps]

On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 9:44 PM, Mike Hall  wrote:

> On 27/04/2016 21:18, Italo Vignoli wrote:
>
>> By using C-Fonts, you are therefore producing documents with limited
>> interoperability
>> C-Fonts are not interoperable also in technical terms,
>>
> That's good information.
>
> Does TDF have a recommendation for which fonts to use to maximise
> interoperability across the common range of OS's? (Quite complex if you
> include iOS and Android as well as Win, Mac, nix). Not sure if the generic
> 'sans-serif' etc do what the normal user wants.


I can't speak to a general recommendation, but this advice from Debian to
use Google's compatible free fonts seems good:

https://wiki.debian.org/SubstitutingCalibriAndCambriaFonts

In fact it makes me wonder if these could be the default equivalents for
the C-fonts in LibreOffice?

S.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict

[Mike Hall]

On 27/04/2016 21:18, Italo Vignoli wrote:

By using C-Fonts, you are therefore producing documents with limited
interoperability
C-Fonts are not interoperable also in technical terms,

That's good information.

Does TDF have a recommendation for which fonts to use to maximise 
interoperability across the common range of OS's? (Quite complex if you 
include iOS and Android as well as Win, Mac, nix). Not sure if the 
generic 'sans-serif' etc do what the normal user wants.

--
Mike Hall www.onepoyle.net


Please help with this important project 
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prostate cancer




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If you are a man over 60, insist on an annual PSA test, which is your right
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Re: [tdf-discuss] OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict

[Italo Vignoli]

Yes, the fonts come with Windows, but not with other operating systems.
On MacOS, they are legally available with MS Office installed. On Linux,
they are not available at all.

C-Fonts cannot be legally embedded, although they can be mechanically
embedded (and no one warns you about the legal risks). If you receive a
document which embeds a C-Font, the font may end up being installed on
your system (even if you are not allowed to use it because you do not
own a license). Microsoft can legally pursue the owner of the C-Font
license.

By using C-Fonts, you are therefore producing documents with limited
interoperability, even if you are legally allowed to use them (as you
own a Windows license).

C-Fonts are not interoperable also in technical terms, as they have a
peculiar metric size, which is difficult to emulate. This means that a
document where a C-Font is replaced with another font will be visually
different, to the point that many users will believe that contents are
not the same.

I hope this helps.

On 27/04/2016 20:43, Mike Hall wrote:
> On 27/04/2016 13:42, Italo Vignoli wrote:
>> Several people at TDF have been involved in the decision process and
>> have contributed specific evidence about ODF and OOXML
> I zapped your last message, but I wondered whether it was necessary to
> have an MSO licence to use Calibri etc. This windows PC, originally Win
> 7, now Win 10 has all the MS fonts but has never had MSO installed,
> which seems to imply it's Windows rather than Office that brings in the
> fonts?

-- 
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Re: [tdf-discuss] OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict

[Mike Hall]

On 27/04/2016 13:42, Italo Vignoli wrote:

Several people at TDF have been involved in the decision process and
have contributed specific evidence about ODF and OOXML
I zapped your last message, but I wondered whether it was necessary to 
have an MSO licence to use Calibri etc. This windows PC, originally Win 
7, now Win 10 has all the MS fonts but has never had MSO installed, 
which seems to imply it's Windows rather than Office that brings in the 
fonts?



--
Mike Hall www.onepoyle.net


Please help with this important project 
https://theprostatecancerproject.net



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The project aims to transform diagnosis and treatment using 
ground-breaking computer science
to reveal crucial information hidden in the complex mass of data about 
prostate cancer




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If you are a man over 60, insist on an annual PSA test, which is your right
Regular tests significantly improve early detection of prostate cancer, 
giving a much better chance of successful treatment



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Re: [tdf-discuss] OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict

[Italo Vignoli]

On 26/04/2016 12:46, mjollni...@laposte.net wrote:

> Is it correct to say that the Transitionnal OOXML format is not
> compliant with any international standard or norm ? Neither ECMA, nor
> ISO, nor anything but MS$ itself.

OOXML Transitional is not the standard format, but a tweaked version of
OOXML integrating bynary blobs and other non standard components, which
was supposed to help the transition from the legacy file formats to
OOXML Strict (which is the only standard file format).

> If so, Does this means that NO version of MS$ office (from 2010 to
> the actual) writes BY DEFAULT in a standardized or normalised format.
>  (cf.
> https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc179191%28v=office.16%29.aspx
> for default formats)

Yes. Every Microsoft Office version since 2007 defaults to OOXML
Transitional, implementing a slightly different version of the OOXML
Transitional non standard file format.

Only MS Office 2013 and MS Office 2016 implement OOXML Strict, with a
process that makes it virtually impossible for any normal user to get a
real OOXML Strict file format (the user should save the document using
the OOXML Strict option - listed as last of the "save as" options -
before writing a single character).

Because of this behaviour which intentionally prevents the creation of
OOXML Strict files, the number of OOXML Strict files available is close
to zero.

In addition, Microsoft fonts used as default by MS Office since 2007 -
known as C-Fonts or Calibri, Cambria, Candara, Consolas, Constantia and
Corbel) - can only be used by MS Office licensed customers, as they are
included in MS Office EULA, to add another level of incompatibility.

> Is anyone confident enough in his knowledge of OOXML to acknowledge
> this ? Maybe this place is not the best one to ask the question ? If
> so, would please somebody advice me the best place to post the
> question ?

I am confident enough to answer most questions about OOXML issues.

Please do note that after the UK decision on July 22, 2014, not even
Microsoft has dared to define OOXML as standard in public, because it is
perfectly clear that the file format is not standard and will never be a
standard (after nine years and four different implementations of OOXML
Transitional, which was supposed to last a maximum of two MS Office
versions).

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Re: [tdf-discuss] OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict

[Italo Vignoli]

On 27/04/2016 10:12, pasqual milvaques wrote:

> In the sake of documenting this, the UK Cabinet Office decision can be
> found here:
> https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/open-standards-for-government/sharing-or-collaborating-with-government-documents

Several people at TDF have been involved in the decision process and
have contributed specific evidence about ODF and OOXML - not being a
standard - to UK Cabinet Office.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict

[pasqual milvaques]

Hi

In the sake of documenting this, the UK Cabinet Office decision can be 
found here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/open-standards-for-government/sharing-or-collaborating-with-government-documents

In this URL there is addditional information about the supoport process:
https://standards.data.gov.uk/meeting/technical-standards-panel-meeting-17-march-2014

the main reason behind the ooxml rejection seems to be:

   We considered ODF and OpenXML in view of the UK Government
   definition of open standards, which was set following a full public
   consultation in 2012.

   ODF appeared to meet the definition. However, OpenXML did not appear
   to meet the criteria for market support - particularly regarding
   vendor independence. We found products which appear to implement
   OpenXML but only the most recent products claim to have the strict
   implementation and it is not used as a default format in any
   product. In addition, the development of the standard currently has
   limited involvement from outside a single supplier of office
   productivity suites.

Thanks

El 26/04/16 a les 19:27, Italo Vignoli ha escrit:

On 26/04/2016 15:09, pasqual milvaques wrote:


The 'transitional' variant of ooxml is specified in Part 4 of ISO/IEC
29500 so it's standard, it's supposed that the features of the
transitional variant ease the transition from older formats, I'm not
sure if there is a plan for making the strict variant the default in MS
Office, in Office 2016 it's not yet

OOXML Transitional is definitely not recognized as a standard, and is
specified in Part 4 of ISO/IEC 29500 exactly because is not a standard
(to make it clear how it differs from the standard). OOXML Transitional
was accepted to ease the transition to the standard, and as such should
have lasted only a few years, while it has been used by Microsoft as the
default OOXML format since forever. In addition, OOXML Transitional is
different for each version of MS Office, and the differences are not
documented (only the first OOXML Transitional was documented).

In addition, OOXML Strict - which is the ONLY accepted standard - is
almost impossible to obtain by normal users, as the process is far from
the usual one, as in order to have an OOXML Strict you must save the
document before performing ANY action (as otherwise the format switches
to OOXML Transitional, which is not a standard).

UK Cabinet Office has clearly documented the reasons why OOXML is not a
standard file format.




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Re: [tdf-discuss] OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict

[Italo Vignoli]

On 26/04/2016 15:09, pasqual milvaques wrote:

> The 'transitional' variant of ooxml is specified in Part 4 of ISO/IEC
> 29500 so it's standard, it's supposed that the features of the
> transitional variant ease the transition from older formats, I'm not
> sure if there is a plan for making the strict variant the default in MS
> Office, in Office 2016 it's not yet

OOXML Transitional is definitely not recognized as a standard, and is
specified in Part 4 of ISO/IEC 29500 exactly because is not a standard
(to make it clear how it differs from the standard). OOXML Transitional
was accepted to ease the transition to the standard, and as such should
have lasted only a few years, while it has been used by Microsoft as the
default OOXML format since forever. In addition, OOXML Transitional is
different for each version of MS Office, and the differences are not
documented (only the first OOXML Transitional was documented).

In addition, OOXML Strict - which is the ONLY accepted standard - is
almost impossible to obtain by normal users, as the process is far from
the usual one, as in order to have an OOXML Strict you must save the
document before performing ANY action (as otherwise the format switches
to OOXML Transitional, which is not a standard).

UK Cabinet Office has clearly documented the reasons why OOXML is not a
standard file format.

-- 
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mobile +39.348.5653829 - email / jabber it...@libreoffice.org
hangout / jabber italo.vign...@gmail.com - skype italovignoli
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Re: [tdf-discuss] OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict

[pasqual milvaques]

You can ask in the Microsoft open specifications forum:
https://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/en-us/home?category=openspecifications

But, please, be polite, people there can have another perspective of 
this matter and expressions like MS$ doesn't help


The 'transitional' variant of ooxml is specified in Part 4 of ISO/IEC 
29500 so it's standard, it's supposed that the features of the 
transitional variant ease the transition from older formats, I'm not 
sure if there is a plan for making the strict variant the default in MS 
Office, in Office 2016 it's not yet


Best regards

El 26/04/16 a les 12:46, mjollni...@laposte.net ha escrit:

So.

Is it correct to say that the Transitionnal OOXML format is not compliant with 
any international standard or norm ? Neither ECMA, nor ISO, nor anything but 
MS$ itself.

If so,
Does this means that NO version of MS$ office (from 2010 to the actual) writes 
BY DEFAULT in a standardized or normalised format.
(cf. https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc179191%28v=office.16%29.aspx 
for default formats)

Is anyone confident enough in his knowledge of OOXML to acknowledge this ?
Maybe this place is not the best one to ask the question ?
If so, would please somebody advice me the best place to post the question ?


- Mail original -

De: "Florian Reisinger" <flo...@libreoffice.org>
À: mjollni...@laposte.net, discuss@documentfoundation.org
Envoyé: Mardi 26 Avril 2016 13:26:12
Objet: Re: [tdf-discuss] OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict



Short answer: Any release (2007,2010,2013,2016) has it's own transitional 
format. AFAIK



< mjollni...@laposte.net > schrieb am Di., 26. Apr. 2016, 10:13:


Hello,

I'm a french user willing to get some answers about OOXML format.
This post is already released on the fr.discuss mailing list.

As you may know, something changing the game just happened in France.
The second version of the Interoperability General Refenrential was just 
released.
It demands all the public administrations (by law) to conform to certain file 
formats when the exchanged from administration to administration or from a 
citizen to an administration and vice et versa.

ODF is recommended.

OOXML strict is tolerated in some case.
OOXML transitionnal is not.
Binary older file formats are not either.

Thus, it becomes very interresting to investigate what's behind OOXML.

in this article :
https://joinup.ec.europa.eu/community/osor/case/complex-singularity-versus-openness

3 different OOXML formats are described :
"There is the ECMA version (that’s the one MS Office 2007 writes, which was 
certified by ECMA International). Then there is OOXML Transitional, which is relatively 
close to the ECMA version, and is the format that all later versions to date write as 
default. Finally, there is OOXML Strict."

In this MS$ tab :
https://blogs.office.com/2012/08/13/new-file-format-options-in-the-new-office/#DR3YrKG0ymm0vmwB.97
Only two OOXML formats are described : transitionnal and strict

A very simple question to an OOXML specialist :

Is transitionnal OOXML ECMA-376 compliant ?

If not, is transitionnal OOXML compliant with any norm or standard ?

Best regards and thanks in advance for any answer.

M.






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Re: [tdf-discuss] OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict

[mjollnir66]

So. 

Is it correct to say that the Transitionnal OOXML format is not compliant with 
any international standard or norm ? Neither ECMA, nor ISO, nor anything but 
MS$ itself. 

If so, 
Does this means that NO version of MS$ office (from 2010 to the actual) writes 
BY DEFAULT in a standardized or normalised format. 
(cf. https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc179191%28v=office.16%29.aspx 
for default formats) 

Is anyone confident enough in his knowledge of OOXML to acknowledge this ? 
Maybe this place is not the best one to ask the question ? 
If so, would please somebody advice me the best place to post the question ? 


- Mail original -

De: "Florian Reisinger" <flo...@libreoffice.org> 
À: mjollni...@laposte.net, discuss@documentfoundation.org 
Envoyé: Mardi 26 Avril 2016 13:26:12 
Objet: Re: [tdf-discuss] OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict 



Short answer: Any release (2007,2010,2013,2016) has it's own transitional 
format. AFAIK 



< mjollni...@laposte.net > schrieb am Di., 26. Apr. 2016, 10:13: 


Hello, 

I'm a french user willing to get some answers about OOXML format. 
This post is already released on the fr.discuss mailing list. 

As you may know, something changing the game just happened in France. 
The second version of the Interoperability General Refenrential was just 
released. 
It demands all the public administrations (by law) to conform to certain file 
formats when the exchanged from administration to administration or from a 
citizen to an administration and vice et versa. 

ODF is recommended. 

OOXML strict is tolerated in some case. 
OOXML transitionnal is not. 
Binary older file formats are not either. 

Thus, it becomes very interresting to investigate what's behind OOXML. 

in this article : 
https://joinup.ec.europa.eu/community/osor/case/complex-singularity-versus-openness
 

3 different OOXML formats are described : 
"There is the ECMA version (that’s the one MS Office 2007 writes, which was 
certified by ECMA International). Then there is OOXML Transitional, which is 
relatively close to the ECMA version, and is the format that all later versions 
to date write as default. Finally, there is OOXML Strict." 

In this MS$ tab : 
https://blogs.office.com/2012/08/13/new-file-format-options-in-the-new-office/#DR3YrKG0ymm0vmwB.97
 
Only two OOXML formats are described : transitionnal and strict 

A very simple question to an OOXML specialist : 

Is transitionnal OOXML ECMA-376 compliant ? 

If not, is transitionnal OOXML compliant with any norm or standard ? 

Best regards and thanks in advance for any answer. 

M. 


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Re: [tdf-discuss] OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict

[Florian Reisinger]

Short answer: Any release (2007,2010,2013,2016) has it's own transitional
format. AFAIK

 schrieb am Di., 26. Apr. 2016, 10:13:

> Hello,
>
> I'm a french user willing to get some answers about OOXML format.
> This post is already released on the fr.discuss mailing list.
>
> As you may know, something changing the game just happened in France.
> The second version of the Interoperability General Refenrential was just
> released.
> It demands all the public administrations (by law) to conform to certain
> file formats when the exchanged from administration to administration or
> from a citizen to an administration and vice et versa.
>
> ODF is recommended.
>
> OOXML strict is tolerated in some case.
> OOXML transitionnal is not.
> Binary older file formats are not either.
>
> Thus, it becomes very interresting to investigate what's behind OOXML.
>
> in this article :
>
> https://joinup.ec.europa.eu/community/osor/case/complex-singularity-versus-openness
>
> 3 different OOXML formats are described :
> "There is the ECMA version (that’s the one MS Office 2007 writes, which
> was certified by ECMA International). Then there is OOXML Transitional,
> which is relatively close to the ECMA version, and is the format that all
> later versions to date write as default. Finally, there is OOXML Strict."
>
> In this MS$ tab :
>
> https://blogs.office.com/2012/08/13/new-file-format-options-in-the-new-office/#DR3YrKG0ymm0vmwB.97
> Only two OOXML formats are described : transitionnal and strict
>
> A very simple question to an OOXML specialist :
>
> Is transitionnal OOXML ECMA-376 compliant ?
>
> If not, is transitionnal OOXML compliant with any norm or standard ?
>
> Best regards and thanks in advance for any answer.
>
> M.
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe e-mail to: discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org
> Problems?
> http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
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> deleted
>

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