[libreoffice-documentation] Re: Getting rid of 'oldref' in the help files
Hi *, On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 5:51 PM, khagarothwrote: >> it seems the goal is to move away from .xhp to .xhtml >> > I hope you meant HTML 5, because XHTML is a dead end (and good riddance). What will be in the installation set of course is independent of what is used as the source-format. And as kendy already noted, the source format has additional requirements. (like being translated in a sensible way, i.e. po files like it is now) xml can be validated, and converted rather easily. (and of course it is working already, no need to reinvent the wheel at this point) ciao Christian -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-documentation] Re: Getting rid of 'oldref' in the help files
Hi Jan, *, On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 5:38 PM, Jan Holesovskywrote: > Jan Iversen píše v Pá 16. 12. 2016 v 16:27 +0100: > >> > this change is supposed to be transparent for L10n and >> > Documentation teams, but they should know :-) >> >> It does not seem transparent for the few languages that do not use pootle >> (sl and sr) please do not forget those. > > Thanks for the reminder. I hope Cloph can do the upgrade for them some > way that fits them too, though? I'll provide the script with which I'll do the auto-translation, so depends on whether they are using same mechanism to update against the new templates or not whether it will work without modifications (i.e. either they have obsolete strings in the newly generated po files, or they have to keep old po files to read the old translation from). ciao Christian -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: Getting rid of 'oldref' in the help files
Hi Olivier, Olivier Hallot píše v So 17. 12. 2016 v 14:54 -0200: > One thing I'd like to add for evaluation of using XML for the help > contents in browsers is that, in my experience: > > * XSLT (XML style sheets), XPath and XQuery are another technologies > to master. > > * An error in a XSLT statement and one get a blank page or a message > with very little indications (Firefox) > > * XSLT seems to be an aging technology. Is the industry betting in this > technology for the future? > > * Rendering XML+XSLT is browser-dependent and is not publicly/widely > tested by W3C. We may be forced to test the results into a wide set of > browsers. Nothing stops us from rewriting the XLST transformation to plain JavaScript, and handle the XHP files directly via JS if XSLT is blocking us. [And this is a reasonably self-contained, and easily testable task: The XHP -> HTML conversion has to give the same results before and after the rewrite for all the files. We've got rid of XSLT in writerfilter the same way few years ago.] And maybe we'll eventually end up with using the plain HTML5 directly - I definitely don't want to block evolution (even though at the moment I see more drawbacks than gains). But that's my main point - I want an evolution, not a revolution. Every time I hear about "helpcontent*3*" or "let's move to html5", I get extremely scared, because such claims seem to suggest that we have to throw away what we have & rewrite everything first, and miss what we want to achieve in the first place; which from what I know is: 1) add multimedia content 2) make the editing easier But neither 1) nor 2) have html5 (or a complete rewrite) as a pre-requisite, for both these goals there is an incremental upgrade path possible: Improving XHP step by step. All the best, Kendy -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: Getting rid of 'oldref' in the help files
Hi Jan Em 16/12/2016 15:41, Jan Holesovsky escreveu: > Hi, > > khagaroth píše v Pá 16. 12. 2016 v 17:51 +0100: > >>> I hope you meant HTML 5, because XHTML is a dead end (and good riddance). >> html does not have markup for some of the semantics that we have (and need) >>> in the help files (like or to name few) >>> >> Both and are part of HTML 5 and there is a good chance >> the other things are as well. > They are, but they mean a completely different thing than what they mean > in XHP ;-) > > in XHP is more like data="foo.inc">. > > Similarly is more like a with some associated css. > > Again - I'm talking semantics; is a general thing, and has no > semantics by itself, similarly . We'd lose this by converting to a > plain HTML. > > All the best, > Kendy > > One thing I'd like to add for evaluation of using XML for the help contents in browsers is that, in my experience: * XSLT (XML style sheets), XPath and XQuery are another technologies to master. * An error in a XSLT statement and one get a blank page or a message with very little indications (Firefox) * XSLT seems to be an aging technology. Is the industry betting in this technology for the future? * Rendering XML+XSLT is browser-dependent and is not publicly/widely tested by W3C. We may be forced to test the results into a wide set of browsers. Regards -- Olivier Hallot LIbreOffice Documentation Coordinator Comunidade LibreOffice Rio de Janeiro - Brasil - Local Time: UTC-02:00 http://tdf.io/joinus -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-documentation] Re: Getting rid of 'oldref' in the help files
On 12/16/2016 05:38 PM, Jan Holesovsky wrote: > * there are many ways how to describe the same thing in html ('s and > 's vs. and vs. 's with css vs. who-knows-what) > which would make the help harder to maintain, if we eg. want to reuse > the information from there to generate other representations (like > eg. books or so) oh and of course HTML help content effectively requires first ditching the current built-in Writer-based help browser, since Writer can only handle ~HTML3 or so and if people can just write HTML5 directly they surely don't want to be restricted to a subset with no tool to verify they didn't get it wrong, so the pages have to be displayed by a proper web browser. but maybe getting rid of the Writer based online help is already part of the goal, i don't know. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: Getting rid of 'oldref' in the help files
Hi All Em 16/12/2016 14:51, khagaroth escreveu: >> it seems the goal is to move away from .xhp to .xhtml >> >> I hope you meant HTML 5, because XHTML is a dead end (and good riddance). > html does not have markup for some of the semantics that we have (and need) >> in the help files (like or to name few) >> > Both and are part of HTML 5 and there is a good chance > the other things are as well. > > there are many ways how to describe the same thing in html ('s and 's >> vs. and vs. 's with css vs. who-knows-what) > > CSS is the preferred way, its the same as with styles and direct formatting > in Writer. > The complete XHP reference is here: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/HelpContentAuthoring/3 Regards -- Olivier Hallot LIbreOffice Documentation Coordinator Comunidade LibreOffice Rio de Janeiro - Brasil - Local Time: UTC-02:00 http://tdf.io/joinus -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: Getting rid of 'oldref' in the help files
Hi, khagaroth píše v Pá 16. 12. 2016 v 17:51 +0100: > > I hope you meant HTML 5, because XHTML is a dead end (and good riddance). > > html does not have markup for some of the semantics that we have (and need) > > in the help files (like or to name few) > > > > Both and are part of HTML 5 and there is a good chance > the other things are as well. They are, but they mean a completely different thing than what they mean in XHP ;-) in XHP is more like . Similarly is more like a with some associated css. Again - I'm talking semantics; is a general thing, and has no semantics by itself, similarly . We'd lose this by converting to a plain HTML. All the best, Kendy -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-documentation] Re: Getting rid of 'oldref' in the help files
> > it seems the goal is to move away from .xhp to .xhtml > > I hope you meant HTML 5, because XHTML is a dead end (and good riddance). html does not have markup for some of the semantics that we have (and need) > in the help files (like or to name few) > Both and are part of HTML 5 and there is a good chance the other things are as well. there are many ways how to describe the same thing in html ('s and 's > vs. and vs. 's with css vs. who-knows-what) CSS is the preferred way, its the same as with styles and direct formatting in Writer. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-documentation] Re: Getting rid of 'oldref' in the help files
Hi Jan, Jan Iversen píše v Pá 16. 12. 2016 v 16:27 +0100: > > this change is supposed to be transparent for L10n and > > Documentation teams, but they should know :-) > > It does not seem transparent for the few languages that do not use pootle (sl > and sr) please do not forget those. Thanks for the reminder. I hope Cloph can do the upgrade for them some way that fits them too, though? > It does also influence the help repo (of course), since the change will be a > very big commit. > > > [Or - any objections to this change?] > > No objections as I think it is a good and welcome change, just a question. > > As we discussed in ESC (and Oliver sort of pushed) it seems the goal > is to move away from .xhp to .xhtml (if I understood it correct). If > decided do we then want to do that as a set of small steps or make 1 > script that does it ? I tried to explain on the documentation@ why a big-bang move to html is not a good idea from many reasons in another thread; to name the most important ones: * big-bang "let's abandon one technology and hooray for another one" always brings lots of regressions that are hard to fix in a timely manner; incremental changes are easier to maintain * html does not have markup for some of the semantics that we have (and need) in the help files (like or to name few) * there are many ways how to describe the same thing in html ('s and 's vs. and vs. 's with css vs. who-knows-what) which would make the help harder to maintain, if we eg. want to reuse the information from there to generate other representations (like eg. books or so) > Please just see this as a question of how often to we want to run these > conversions. One more may be needed if we agree that the id="..." attribute could be done non-mandatory, because that one affects the msgctx too. If we want to make the XHP markup look more like HTML markup (which I don't object in general & this is up to agreement between between the Documentation and L10n people), there might be additional conversions needed, for things like -> etc. - but I'd like to keep this separate from the cleanup effort / topic. All the best, Kendy -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-documentation] Re: Getting rid of 'oldref' in the help files
> this change is supposed to be transparent for L10n and > Documentation teams, but they should know :-) It does not seem transparent for the few languages that do not use pootle (sl and sr) please do not forget those. It does also influence the help repo (of course), since the change will be a very big commit. > [Or - any objections to this change?] No objections as I think it is a good and welcome change, just a question. As we discussed in ESC (and Oliver sort of pushed) it seems the goal is to move away from .xhp to .xhtml (if I understood it correct). If decided do we then want to do that as a set of small steps or make 1 script that does it ? Please just see this as a question of how often to we want to run these conversions. have a nice weekend rgds jan I. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted