Re: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards - good or bad?
That's exactly what I do, Zack Unless there's some organisational cock-up (on my part - I don't use a computer log) then I'll work a DXpedition if possible once on each band and once on each mode. I won't work them on a band/mode if I already have that one confirmed. The thought process is specifically one of if I work them on xxx and I don't need it then that's someone else who's not able to work them. The only time I'll make an exception is if the DXpedition is calling CQ and no-one is answering them I think that G7VJR raises a good point. The presence of an online log stops the temptation for insurance QSOs so in that sense it's good. The propagation tools are always useful if like me you work long hours and have to make use of small time slots for calling DX. But in truth I think that ill-mannered selfish pigs will always be ill-mannered selfish pigs and certain big gun DX Hogs (I could name them in G-land but of course won't) will trample over others, calling and calling and trying to work a Dxpedition on every band/slot whether or not there's a leader board online. After all, they''ve been behaving like that for years anyway... cheers Dave G0OIL - Original Message - From: Zack Widup To: dx-chat Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 10:59 PM Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards - good or bad? Someone has pointed out recently that for DXCC requirements, you could get by with 9 QSO's which would cover 160 through 10 meters. You only need one QSO each on CW, SSB and RTTY, so you could either fit them in amongst your 9 QSO's, or make a total of 11 QSO's to satisfy DXCC requirements. The Leaderboards seem to be the things that are inspiring people to make 27 QSO's with the DX. I'm sure some of these stations that are coming out on top of the leadeboards have worked some of these stations previously on some of those band/modes, so it becomes mostly a thing of greed and ego. 73, Zack W9SZ On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 4:28 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV w...@subich.com wrote: On 6/5/2012 4:39 PM, Ryan Jairam wrote: I don't really buy that argument. In the last days of a DXpedition, they're usually begging. You obviously did not attempt to work 7O6T on RTTY. The Europeans monopolized the few available RTTY band slots and even chased 7O6T off RTTY many times in the last days of the DXpedition. Quite simply, Leaderboards as currently structured encourage rampant DX Hoggery and have no place in radiosport. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 6/5/2012 4:39 PM, Ryan Jairam wrote: I don't really buy that argument. In the last days of a DXpedition, they're usually begging. Those who couldn't make a QSO probably couldn't make a QSO on a completely clear band anyway. There is only so much you can work with a dipole and 100 watts. And finally, DXing is competitive.You can be a good sport but you don't have to put yourself at a disadvantage to make others feel better. Ryan, N2RJ On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 4:27 PM, Joe Subich, W4TVw...@subich.com wrote: I think KQ8M's first comment in response to G7VJR's editorial is on point. Clublog's Leaderboards should be modified to stop counting at 11 band slots. 11 (or 12 if the operation works six meters) allows a station to work the operation on each band plus pick up QSOs on CW, Digital, and voice. Quite frankly, in spite of falling prey to the seduction of high leaderboard numbers a time or two myself, anyone who shows up with more than 14 or 15 band slots is simply a DX HOG. There is simply no excuse for such behavior. N1DG's presentation at Dayton clearly showed the DX HOGs do not provide increased support (contributions with QSL) relative to the number of band slots worked ... even the more QSOs mean more revenue argument falls flat. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 6/5/2012 2:54 PM, Paul M Dunphy wrote: G7VJR's point of view (ClubLog creator and T32C participant): http://g7vjr.org/2012/06/expedition-leaderboards-good-or-bad/ 73, Paul VE1DX --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list. Please send a message to imail...@njdxa.org In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org --- --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list. Please send a message to imail...@njdxa.org In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat
Re: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards and Tom's yardstick
Hi think that's a great way of looking at things, Tom I thought that the 7O6T guys did an amazing job before I saw your analysis, but I guess that figure really hammers home quite how incredible their QSO rate was. I bet they slept for a week when they got home. I suppose the counter argument to judging a DXpedition simply by number of QSOs is - as others have suggested - where those QSOs came from, hence the point from our friends across the Atlantic that the 7O6T team apparently didn't look to maximise band openings to North America (and elsewhere) - whereas Neville G3NUG told me that working the hard-to-work paths was specifically a goal of T32C, possibly partly (along with other factors) explaining the lower QSO rate As you say, it all depends on the objectives of the Dxpedition and as Benjamin Disraeli alluded, interpretation of statistics can be dangerous cheers Dave G0OIL - Original Message - From: Tom Wylie To: list...@ve1dx.net Cc: NJDXA DX Chat Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 8:17 PM Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards - good or bad? One of my personal yardstick of the goodness of an expedition is NOT the total number of QSOs made as that depends entirely on the number of operators, stations and the duration but I like to look at the TOTAL QSOs made by the NUMBER of OPERATORS and the NUMBER of DAYS taken into account Like: CallTotal QSOs No of Operators No of Days No of QSOs made per operator per day T32C2130063830186 D68C1685913220263 HK0NA 1952922727267 7O6T1620291715635 I guess it all depends on the objectives of the expedition work uniques?? work down to the third and fourth tier? max out the QSOs? etc etc. Its just my way of looking and comparing things Tom GM4FDM On 05/06/2012 19:54, Paul M Dunphy wrote: G7VJR's point of view (ClubLog creator and T32C participant): http://g7vjr.org/2012/06/expedition-leaderboards-good-or-bad/ 73, Paul VE1DX --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list. Please send a message to imail...@njdxa.org In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org --- --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list. Please send a message to imail...@njdxa.org In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org --- --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list. Please send a message to imail...@njdxa.org In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org ---
[DX-CHAT] Leaderboards - and everything else.
Question. Just what is wrong, exactly, with working a DXpedition by band/mode? What's the problem? Isn't that what we all want to do anyway, that is, work everyone on all bands and all modes? Isn't that why the DXpedition goes too far flung places at great expense for - to have as many QSOs as they can. Why do we have so many people 'setting the rules' for others. Seems to me if you work what you want then I will not say anything to you, and if I work what I want, then I don't expect you to say anything (to me, that is). Seems like it might work OK! Only one over-riding rule - we all do it with some dignity and fairness to all. I get sick of being told what to do by others - my government runs most of my life, my XYL most of the rest of it - guys, give me a break and let me live what is left by my own rules. Because I most certainly will not be taking any notice of any of you, anyway. Some years ago, our (then) Prime Minister said something like 'life wasn't meant to be easy'! He was right, you know. Good DXing to all. Fair and dignified, that is. Ernie Ernie H Walls VK3FM vk...@wallsy.com.au Mobile 0418 301 483 --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list. Please send a message to imail...@njdxa.org In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org ---
Re: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards and Tom's yardstick
Well precisely Dave - I mean if you have sufficient operators, with sufficient kit and they stay there a long time, it stands to reason they are going to break records - my dog';s bigger than your dog! etc. But, it depends upon the obectives of the expedition.If like T32C you want to get through the layers of big guns, down to the QRP and dipoles and G5RVs, then you have to be operating 24/7 with a lot of stations and stay for a good while. There are too many variables.In the Carribean you are close to the USA and can keep the number up on any band, likewith I guess 7O6T was close to Europe, with a big catchment area. Some of the Pacific Islands are great for Japan and the West Coast USA, but perhaps less so for Europe.. But, to me, actual numbers are pretty meaningless. I mean, if I go to Banaba on my own for 5 days and make 1,000 Qs per day = 5,000 QSOs, would that in the greater scheme of things be a good efort 1,000 Qs per operator per day or would it be lost in the annals of time as a small insignificant operation. I would expect to make that number of QSOs per day (at least) during CQWW. By the way, its time Banaba was done again. :-) Tom GM4FDM On 06/06/2012 09:40, DAVE WHITE wrote: Hi think that's a great way of looking at things, Tom I thought that the 7O6T guys did an amazing job before I saw your analysis, but I guess that figure really hammers home quite how incredible their QSO rate was. I bet they slept for a week when they got home. I suppose the counter argument to judging a DXpedition simply by number of QSOs is - as others have suggested - where those QSOs came from, hence the point from our friends across the Atlantic that the 7O6T team apparently didn't look to maximise band openings to North America (and elsewhere) - whereas Neville G3NUG told me that working the hard-to-work paths was specifically a goal of T32C, possibly partly (along with other factors) explaining the lower QSO rate As you say, it all depends on the objectives of the Dxpedition and as Benjamin Disraeli alluded, interpretation of statistics can be dangerous cheers Dave G0OIL - Original Message - *From:* Tom Wylie mailto:tgwy...@virginmedia.com *To:* list...@ve1dx.net mailto:list...@ve1dx.net *Cc:* NJDXA DX Chat mailto:dx-chat@njdxa.org *Sent:* Tuesday, June 05, 2012 8:17 PM *Subject:* Re: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards - good or bad? One of my personal yardstick of the goodness of an expedition is NOT the total number of QSOs made as that depends entirely on the number of operators, stations and the duration but I like to look at the TOTAL QSOs made by the NUMBER of OPERATORS and the NUMBER of DAYS taken into account Like: CallTotal QSOs No of Operators No of Days No of QSOs made per operator per day T32C2130063830 186 D68C1685913220 263 HK0NA 1952922727 267 7O6T1620291715 *635* I guess it all depends on the objectives of the expedition work uniques?? work down to the third and fourth tier? max out the QSOs? etc etc. Its just my way of looking and comparing things Tom GM4FDM On 05/06/2012 19:54, Paul M Dunphy wrote: G7VJR's point of view (ClubLog creator and T32C participant): http://g7vjr.org/2012/06/expedition-leaderboards-good-or-bad/ 73, Paul VE1DX --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list. Please send a message to imail...@njdxa.org In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org --- --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list. Please send a message to imail...@njdxa.org In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org --- --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list. Please send a message to imail...@njdxa.org In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org ---
Re: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards - good or bad?
Good points, Dave. If a DX station is calling CQ and not getting any answers (that he can hear) I would have no problem with calling them. Also, the on-line logs most likely DO reduce a lot of traffic from people who aren't sure they have worked them until they find the QSO in the log. For the current A5A DXpedition, Jon KL2A has noted there have been several pirates active. I even heard one myself, on 30 meters a week ago. Jon even posted a spot on packet that it was a pirate while the pirate was operating! I remember some years ago DJ5CQ (now an SK) did quite a few Pacific operations. There were no on-line logs back then. I worked him twice on a couple bands as insurance contacts. When I got my cards, he had included a card with a funny-looking creature sketched on it that said I had worked them more than once on a band and not to do that again. 73, Zack W9SZ On 6/6/12, DAVE WHITE mausop...@btinternet.com wrote: That's exactly what I do, Zack Unless there's some organisational cock-up (on my part - I don't use a computer log) then I'll work a DXpedition if possible once on each band and once on each mode. I won't work them on a band/mode if I already have that one confirmed. The thought process is specifically one of if I work them on xxx and I don't need it then that's someone else who's not able to work them. The only time I'll make an exception is if the DXpedition is calling CQ and no-one is answering them I think that G7VJR raises a good point. The presence of an online log stops the temptation for insurance QSOs so in that sense it's good. The propagation tools are always useful if like me you work long hours and have to make use of small time slots for calling DX. But in truth I think that ill-mannered selfish pigs will always be ill-mannered selfish pigs and certain big gun DX Hogs (I could name them in G-land but of course won't) will trample over others, calling and calling and trying to work a Dxpedition on every band/slot whether or not there's a leader board online. After all, they''ve been behaving like that for years anyway... cheers Dave G0OIL - Original Message - From: Zack Widup To: dx-chat Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 10:59 PM Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards - good or bad? Someone has pointed out recently that for DXCC requirements, you could get by with 9 QSO's which would cover 160 through 10 meters. You only need one QSO each on CW, SSB and RTTY, so you could either fit them in amongst your 9 QSO's, or make a total of 11 QSO's to satisfy DXCC requirements. The Leaderboards seem to be the things that are inspiring people to make 27 QSO's with the DX. I'm sure some of these stations that are coming out on top of the leadeboards have worked some of these stations previously on some of those band/modes, so it becomes mostly a thing of greed and ego. 73, Zack W9SZ On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 4:28 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV w...@subich.com wrote: On 6/5/2012 4:39 PM, Ryan Jairam wrote: I don't really buy that argument. In the last days of a DXpedition, they're usually begging. You obviously did not attempt to work 7O6T on RTTY. The Europeans monopolized the few available RTTY band slots and even chased 7O6T off RTTY many times in the last days of the DXpedition. Quite simply, Leaderboards as currently structured encourage rampant DX Hoggery and have no place in radiosport. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 6/5/2012 4:39 PM, Ryan Jairam wrote: I don't really buy that argument. In the last days of a DXpedition, they're usually begging. Those who couldn't make a QSO probably couldn't make a QSO on a completely clear band anyway. There is only so much you can work with a dipole and 100 watts. And finally, DXing is competitive.You can be a good sport but you don't have to put yourself at a disadvantage to make others feel better. Ryan, N2RJ On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 4:27 PM, Joe Subich, W4TVw...@subich.com wrote: I think KQ8M's first comment in response to G7VJR's editorial is on point. Clublog's Leaderboards should be modified to stop counting at 11 band slots. 11 (or 12 if the operation works six meters) allows a station to work the operation on each band plus pick up QSOs on CW, Digital, and voice. Quite frankly, in spite of falling prey to the seduction of high leaderboard numbers a time or two myself, anyone who shows up with more than 14 or 15 band slots is simply a DX HOG. There is simply no excuse for such behavior. N1DG's presentation at Dayton clearly showed the DX HOGs do not provide increased support (contributions with QSL) relative to the number of band slots worked ... even the more QSOs mean more revenue argument falls flat. 73,
Re: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards - and everything else.
Besides, if DeSoto didn't come up with the idea, someone else would have. Ryan, N2RJ On Wed, Jun 6, 2012 at 12:24 PM, Zack Widup w9sz.z...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, I'm sure small pileups would develop occasionally to work some station. But without DXCC, I doubt anyone would be risking their lives and spending a fortune to go to places like Peter I or South Sandwich Islands. And a QSO with someone in a European country would have equal weight with a QSO with someone in Yemen. I'm sure there would be people who wanted to work as many countries as they could on all bands and modes. But I'm willing to bet the number would be much smaller. But that's not the way it is and I guess we just need to live with the existing situation. 73, Zack W9SZ On Wed, Jun 6, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Don Berger dberger...@gmail.com wrote: Well, let me ask this question: What would the ham radio world be like if there were no DXCC or similar awards? Arguably better in many ways. Among them, one could argue the ability to have prolonged and therefore interesting discussions with hams in other parts of the world would be enjoyable and equally as challenging as DX competition. The lack of a DXCC certificate in no way limits or precludes the challenge of working countries, band-countries, zones, counties, etc... The existence of certificates fills a need only among those who are compelled to demonstrate their accomplishment(s) to others who presumably couldn't care less. The accomplishment remains equal regardless. I won't enumerate problems like qrm, too-wide pileup spreads, a life outside ham radio, etc... Just my take but for every person who lives and breathes dx, there are many more who find enjoyment without external considerations. Don K1VSK --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list. Please send a message to imail...@njdxa.org In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org --- -- Ryan A. Jairam --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list. Please send a message to imail...@njdxa.org In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org ---
RE: [DX-CHAT] 7O6T
H...made a $25 donation before the expedition started and no LOTW for me.and another OQRS donation on top of that! NF4A --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list. Please send a message to imail...@njdxa.org In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org ---
Re: [DX-CHAT] 7O6T
My QSOs showed up in LoTW today, too. I made a _very_ modest donation, so it looks like everyone who donated any amount via the OQRS system can expect their confirmations soon. 73, Scott, N9AA On 6/6/12 8:51 PM, JIM Abercrombie wrote: Received LOTW confirmation today. Yes, I made a $25 donation via paypal. Jim --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list. Please send a message to imail...@njdxa.org In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org ---
