[Emc-developers] LinuxCnc growing with to much none essential code

[Johannes P Fassotte]

I have noticed that over the years LinuxCnc is taking up more and more 
space and that this is mostly related to supporting the QT related 
work.  When looking at the amount of Pythom code that is now contained 
in LinuxCnc it appears to equal more than 90% of all the code present 
based on my prior searches and charting.


I'm not in love with QT and in my personnal LinuxCnc installs QT related 
items are one of the first things that gets removed from LinuxCnc. To me 
it is just a tool to allow building QT based sluggish user interfaces 
that I dont use. It would be better if it was a optional install for 
users that which to use it. I do understand that it has taken a lot of 
work to develop the QT things but I would like to see LinuxCnc trimmed 
down to just containing the essential things.


As far as tools for building user interfaces It would also not surprise 
me if the next fad for building those is just around the corner and that 
QT will hopefully be just part of the old LinuxCnc history.  I there 
will always be newer and better ways to get things done without getting 
trapped into a current fad.


It was not to may years ago that LinuxCnc was just over 120Mb in 
extracted size.  Now V 2.9 master is takes up 252Mb so its getting 
bloaded with a lot of none essential things. I think it needs a good 
cleaning to get it back on track. I feel that there are to many 
personnal projects being added that are better suited to be developer 
supported addtions and not part of LinuxCnc itself.







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Re: [Emc-developers] Eye candy is important - Titan got a new German friend - want that reaction for a LinuxCNC controller

[Phill Carter]

> On 1 Dec 2022, at 10:27 am, Steffen Moeller  wrote:
> 
> 
> Am 30.11.2022 um 19:12 schrieb Chris Morley:
>> The difference is free cad doesn't compete with anything in linuxcnc. Qtpycp 
>> does. If they wanted to be included in linuxcnc, then they would have been 
>> part of the project. They made a choice.
>> Otherwise as I said you are undermining the hard work of the devs that are 
>> active in our project.
> 
> I consider all our users to be somehow part of our project and am
> agnostic about the interface they are using. From how I see it, if
> PyQtVCP does something better than QtVCP then QtVCP gets some
> encouragement and ideas on how to improve and vice versa. Both GUIs
> should be as easy to install and use as possible.
Neither QtVCP nor QtPyVCP are GUIs, they are infrastructure for creating GUIS.
I would think that most users will use neither, they will just use the GUIs 
that have been developed.

> 
> Best,
> Steffen
> 
>> 
>> 
>>  Original message 
>> From: Steffen Moeller 
>> Date: 2022-11-30 9:35 a.m. (GMT-08:00)
>> To: emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
>> Subject: Re: [Emc-developers] Eye candy is important - Titan got a new 
>> German friend - want that reaction for a LinuxCNC controller
>> 
>> 
>> Am 29.11.2022 um 19:06 schrieb Chris Morley:
>>> Are you discussing an official linuxcnc release of ISOs?
>> So I hope.
>>> Are you suggesting including qtpyvcp on the ISO?
>> There are four Python modules missing in Debian to do so, from what I
>> have yet understood. But I feel motivated to help out, just locally
>> packaged oyaml.
>>> In my mind that undermines qtvcp which is actually part of linuxcnc.
>>> Full disclosure, qtvcp is project I started so I am slightly biased.
>> My motivation is to bring the best of Open Source CNC on Linux together
>> to help myself and others. And from what I hear and see, this includes
>> PyQtVCP. You may have a point for the minimal version of that .iso, but
>> for the full featured one it should be in, also FreeCAD and inkscape.
>> 
>> Steffen
>> 
>>>  Original message 
>>> From: Steffen Möller 
>>> Date: 2022-11-29 8:53 a.m. (GMT-08:00)
>>> To: LinuxCNC Dev Mailing List 
>>> Subject: [Emc-developers] Eye candy is important - Titan got a new German 
>>> friend - want that reaction for a LinuxCNC controller
>>> 
>>> Hello,
>>> 
>>> No need to watch this, really. Titan has a nice Heller machine and passes 
>>> the Sinumeric control
>>> https://youtu.be/zToKZtqQMIo?t=354
>>> with some excitement. I actually find LinuxCNC even nicer, especially for 
>>> what I saw from https://www.qtpyvcp.com/ .
>>> 
>>> When we yesterday had this OpenMike session again, we had felt like there 
>>> should be four USB sticks prepared:
>>>a) for two distros - Bullseye (Debian stable) and Bookworm (Debian 
>>> testing, soon stable)
>>>b) in two flavours - minimalistic and fully-featured (including FreeCAD 
>>> and Inkscape to make a good impression on those who come from the other OS)
>>> 
>>> Andy had some confidence (and I share that) that the generation of those 
>>> .iso files per se is not difficult. It was not immediately clear where the 
>>> generation of those .iso files should happen, but the builders maintained 
>>> by Sebastian are a likely target IMO.
>>> 
>>> Question: Is there anybody out there who would like to work with me on a 
>>> description and implementation of what the fully-featured .ISO should like 
>>> alike? This would be Intel-only as a start, leaving everything for the RPi 
>>> to Raspbian for the time being.
>>> 
>>> There are a couple of Python libraries still missing on Debian to get 
>>> QtPyVCP installed. This would likely be something for me to address.
>>> 
>>> Best,
>>> Steffem
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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Re: [Emc-developers] Eye candy is important - Titan got a new German friend - want that reaction for a LinuxCNC controller

[Steffen Moeller]

Am 30.11.2022 um 19:12 schrieb Chris Morley:

The difference is free cad doesn't compete with anything in linuxcnc. Qtpycp 
does. If they wanted to be included in linuxcnc, then they would have been part 
of the project. They made a choice.
Otherwise as I said you are undermining the hard work of the devs that are 
active in our project.


I consider all our users to be somehow part of our project and am
agnostic about the interface they are using. From how I see it, if
PyQtVCP does something better than QtVCP then QtVCP gets some
encouragement and ideas on how to improve and vice versa. Both GUIs
should be as easy to install and use as possible.

Best,
Steffen




 Original message 
From: Steffen Moeller 
Date: 2022-11-30 9:35 a.m. (GMT-08:00)
To: emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Emc-developers] Eye candy is important - Titan got a new German 
friend - want that reaction for a LinuxCNC controller


Am 29.11.2022 um 19:06 schrieb Chris Morley:

Are you discussing an official linuxcnc release of ISOs?

So I hope.

Are you suggesting including qtpyvcp on the ISO?

There are four Python modules missing in Debian to do so, from what I
have yet understood. But I feel motivated to help out, just locally
packaged oyaml.

In my mind that undermines qtvcp which is actually part of linuxcnc.
Full disclosure, qtvcp is project I started so I am slightly biased.

My motivation is to bring the best of Open Source CNC on Linux together
to help myself and others. And from what I hear and see, this includes
PyQtVCP. You may have a point for the minimal version of that .iso, but
for the full featured one it should be in, also FreeCAD and inkscape.

Steffen


 Original message 
From: Steffen Möller 
Date: 2022-11-29 8:53 a.m. (GMT-08:00)
To: LinuxCNC Dev Mailing List 
Subject: [Emc-developers] Eye candy is important - Titan got a new German 
friend - want that reaction for a LinuxCNC controller

Hello,

No need to watch this, really. Titan has a nice Heller machine and passes the 
Sinumeric control
https://youtu.be/zToKZtqQMIo?t=354
with some excitement. I actually find LinuxCNC even nicer, especially for what 
I saw from https://www.qtpyvcp.com/ .

When we yesterday had this OpenMike session again, we had felt like there 
should be four USB sticks prepared:
a) for two distros - Bullseye (Debian stable) and Bookworm (Debian testing, 
soon stable)
b) in two flavours - minimalistic and fully-featured (including FreeCAD and 
Inkscape to make a good impression on those who come from the other OS)

Andy had some confidence (and I share that) that the generation of those .iso 
files per se is not difficult. It was not immediately clear where the 
generation of those .iso files should happen, but the builders maintained by 
Sebastian are a likely target IMO.

Question: Is there anybody out there who would like to work with me on a 
description and implementation of what the fully-featured .ISO should like 
alike? This would be Intel-only as a start, leaving everything for the RPi to 
Raspbian for the time being.

There are a couple of Python libraries still missing on Debian to get QtPyVCP 
installed. This would likely be something for me to address.

Best,
Steffem



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Re: [Emc-developers] Eye candy is important - Titan got a new German friend - want that reaction for a LinuxCNC controller

[Steffen Moeller]

Am 30.11.2022 um 19:58 schrieb Rod Webster:

It lowers the bar for everyone. Installing a real time kernel and all the
dependencies might keep some people from just trying it.
And it allows running it as a live system without even needing to install
something.

@hans, have you ever tried installing from the bookworm repositories?
All of the dependencies including PREEMPT_RT are part of the package so
they are installed
automatically when you install linuxcnc-uspace! There is nothing else the
user requires!

I would hazard a guess you could download the debian ISO, install it and
linuxcnc-uspace
in the same time as it would take to download and install our own ISO
purely because of
the superior bandwidth and global mirrors in the Debian environment.

It's really disappointing to see people in this group who do not understand
our Debian install process
and the benefits it brings.


But nobody takes that away, these Debian packages just get some extra
use and hopefully make more people happy than the packages alone. There
are times that I use something like http://www.knoppix.org/ and love it.
And I am a Debian Developer.

No worries, please. There is no competition.

Best,
Steffen



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Re: [Emc-developers] Eye candy is important - Titan got a new German friend - want that reaction for a LinuxCNC controller

[Rod Webster]

>It lowers the bar for everyone. Installing a real time kernel and all the
>dependencies might keep some people from just trying it.
>And it allows running it as a live system without even needing to install
>something.

@hans, have you ever tried installing from the bookworm repositories?
All of the dependencies including PREEMPT_RT are part of the package so
they are installed
automatically when you install linuxcnc-uspace! There is nothing else the
user requires!

I would hazard a guess you could download the debian ISO, install it and
linuxcnc-uspace
in the same time as it would take to download and install our own ISO
purely because of
the superior bandwidth and global mirrors in the Debian environment.

It's really disappointing to see people in this group who do not understand
our Debian install process
and the benefits it brings.



Rod Webster
*1300 896 832*
+61 435 765 611
Vehicle Modifications Network
www.vehiclemods.net.au


On Thu, 1 Dec 2022 at 04:13, Chris Morley 
wrote:

> The difference is free cad doesn't compete with anything in linuxcnc.
> Qtpycp does. If they wanted to be included in linuxcnc, then they would
> have been part of the project. They made a choice.
> Otherwise as I said you are undermining the hard work of the devs that are
> active in our project.
>
> Chris
>
> Sent from my Galaxy
>
>
>
>  Original message 
> From: Steffen Moeller 
> Date: 2022-11-30 9:35 a.m. (GMT-08:00)
> To: emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Emc-developers] Eye candy is important - Titan got a new
> German friend - want that reaction for a LinuxCNC controller
>
>
> Am 29.11.2022 um 19:06 schrieb Chris Morley:
> > Are you discussing an official linuxcnc release of ISOs?
> So I hope.
> > Are you suggesting including qtpyvcp on the ISO?
> There are four Python modules missing in Debian to do so, from what I
> have yet understood. But I feel motivated to help out, just locally
> packaged oyaml.
> > In my mind that undermines qtvcp which is actually part of linuxcnc.
> > Full disclosure, qtvcp is project I started so I am slightly biased.
>
> My motivation is to bring the best of Open Source CNC on Linux together
> to help myself and others. And from what I hear and see, this includes
> PyQtVCP. You may have a point for the minimal version of that .iso, but
> for the full featured one it should be in, also FreeCAD and inkscape.
>
> Steffen
>
> >  Original message 
> > From: Steffen Möller 
> > Date: 2022-11-29 8:53 a.m. (GMT-08:00)
> > To: LinuxCNC Dev Mailing List 
> > Subject: [Emc-developers] Eye candy is important - Titan got a new
> German friend - want that reaction for a LinuxCNC controller
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > No need to watch this, really. Titan has a nice Heller machine and
> passes the Sinumeric control
> > https://youtu.be/zToKZtqQMIo?t=354
> > with some excitement. I actually find LinuxCNC even nicer, especially
> for what I saw from https://www.qtpyvcp.com/ .
> >
> > When we yesterday had this OpenMike session again, we had felt like
> there should be four USB sticks prepared:
> >a) for two distros - Bullseye (Debian stable) and Bookworm (Debian
> testing, soon stable)
> >b) in two flavours - minimalistic and fully-featured (including
> FreeCAD and Inkscape to make a good impression on those who come from the
> other OS)
> >
> > Andy had some confidence (and I share that) that the generation of those
> .iso files per se is not difficult. It was not immediately clear where the
> generation of those .iso files should happen, but the builders maintained
> by Sebastian are a likely target IMO.
> >
> > Question: Is there anybody out there who would like to work with me on a
> description and implementation of what the fully-featured .ISO should like
> alike? This would be Intel-only as a start, leaving everything for the RPi
> to Raspbian for the time being.
> >
> > There are a couple of Python libraries still missing on Debian to get
> QtPyVCP installed. This would likely be something for me to address.
> >
> > Best,
> > Steffem
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
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Re: [Emc-developers] Eye candy is important - Titan got a new German friend - want that reaction for a LinuxCNC controller

[Chris Morley]

The difference is free cad doesn't compete with anything in linuxcnc. Qtpycp 
does. If they wanted to be included in linuxcnc, then they would have been part 
of the project. They made a choice.
Otherwise as I said you are undermining the hard work of the devs that are 
active in our project.

Chris

Sent from my Galaxy



 Original message 
From: Steffen Moeller 
Date: 2022-11-30 9:35 a.m. (GMT-08:00)
To: emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Emc-developers] Eye candy is important - Titan got a new German 
friend - want that reaction for a LinuxCNC controller


Am 29.11.2022 um 19:06 schrieb Chris Morley:
> Are you discussing an official linuxcnc release of ISOs?
So I hope.
> Are you suggesting including qtpyvcp on the ISO?
There are four Python modules missing in Debian to do so, from what I
have yet understood. But I feel motivated to help out, just locally
packaged oyaml.
> In my mind that undermines qtvcp which is actually part of linuxcnc.
> Full disclosure, qtvcp is project I started so I am slightly biased.

My motivation is to bring the best of Open Source CNC on Linux together
to help myself and others. And from what I hear and see, this includes
PyQtVCP. You may have a point for the minimal version of that .iso, but
for the full featured one it should be in, also FreeCAD and inkscape.

Steffen

>  Original message 
> From: Steffen Möller 
> Date: 2022-11-29 8:53 a.m. (GMT-08:00)
> To: LinuxCNC Dev Mailing List 
> Subject: [Emc-developers] Eye candy is important - Titan got a new German 
> friend - want that reaction for a LinuxCNC controller
>
> Hello,
>
> No need to watch this, really. Titan has a nice Heller machine and passes the 
> Sinumeric control
> https://youtu.be/zToKZtqQMIo?t=354
> with some excitement. I actually find LinuxCNC even nicer, especially for 
> what I saw from https://www.qtpyvcp.com/ .
>
> When we yesterday had this OpenMike session again, we had felt like there 
> should be four USB sticks prepared:
>a) for two distros - Bullseye (Debian stable) and Bookworm (Debian 
> testing, soon stable)
>b) in two flavours - minimalistic and fully-featured (including FreeCAD 
> and Inkscape to make a good impression on those who come from the other OS)
>
> Andy had some confidence (and I share that) that the generation of those .iso 
> files per se is not difficult. It was not immediately clear where the 
> generation of those .iso files should happen, but the builders maintained by 
> Sebastian are a likely target IMO.
>
> Question: Is there anybody out there who would like to work with me on a 
> description and implementation of what the fully-featured .ISO should like 
> alike? This would be Intel-only as a start, leaving everything for the RPi to 
> Raspbian for the time being.
>
> There are a couple of Python libraries still missing on Debian to get QtPyVCP 
> installed. This would likely be something for me to address.
>
> Best,
> Steffem
>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-developers] Eye candy is important - Titan got a new German friend - want that reaction for a LinuxCNC controller

[Steffen Moeller]

Am 29.11.2022 um 19:06 schrieb Chris Morley:

Are you discussing an official linuxcnc release of ISOs?

So I hope.

Are you suggesting including qtpyvcp on the ISO?

There are four Python modules missing in Debian to do so, from what I
have yet understood. But I feel motivated to help out, just locally
packaged oyaml.

In my mind that undermines qtvcp which is actually part of linuxcnc.
Full disclosure, qtvcp is project I started so I am slightly biased.


My motivation is to bring the best of Open Source CNC on Linux together
to help myself and others. And from what I hear and see, this includes
PyQtVCP. You may have a point for the minimal version of that .iso, but
for the full featured one it should be in, also FreeCAD and inkscape.

Steffen


 Original message 
From: Steffen Möller 
Date: 2022-11-29 8:53 a.m. (GMT-08:00)
To: LinuxCNC Dev Mailing List 
Subject: [Emc-developers] Eye candy is important - Titan got a new German 
friend - want that reaction for a LinuxCNC controller

Hello,

No need to watch this, really. Titan has a nice Heller machine and passes the 
Sinumeric control
https://youtu.be/zToKZtqQMIo?t=354
with some excitement. I actually find LinuxCNC even nicer, especially for what 
I saw from https://www.qtpyvcp.com/ .

When we yesterday had this OpenMike session again, we had felt like there 
should be four USB sticks prepared:
   a) for two distros - Bullseye (Debian stable) and Bookworm (Debian testing, 
soon stable)
   b) in two flavours - minimalistic and fully-featured (including FreeCAD and 
Inkscape to make a good impression on those who come from the other OS)

Andy had some confidence (and I share that) that the generation of those .iso 
files per se is not difficult. It was not immediately clear where the 
generation of those .iso files should happen, but the builders maintained by 
Sebastian are a likely target IMO.

Question: Is there anybody out there who would like to work with me on a 
description and implementation of what the fully-featured .ISO should like 
alike? This would be Intel-only as a start, leaving everything for the RPi to 
Raspbian for the time being.

There are a couple of Python libraries still missing on Debian to get QtPyVCP 
installed. This would likely be something for me to address.

Best,
Steffem



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[Emc-developers] extra resources for .iso Re: Eye candy is important

[Steffen Moeller]

Hi Rod,

Am 29.11.2022 um 21:54 schrieb Rod Webster:

Hey guys, in case you have not noticed, there is a new paradigm for
software distribution. It's called Debian Packaging!
Sometimes I think I must be the only idiot out there installing linuxcnc
from bookworm fairly regularly with:
sudo apt-get install linuxcnc-uspace
I for one will never bother with an ISO once Bookworm is released. Come to
think of it, I've never used a Linuxcnc ISO since the migration to Python 3
broke everything I touched!

Why would we bother hosting our own ISO on slow servers and put our limited
resources into building and maintaining said ISO's when the new paradigm is
already with us right now?
Why should we bother including other programs with  linuxcnc distribution?
This is just a distraction.


Maybe it helps to clarify that except some compute time there is not too
much of an overhead on the software side the .iso is just with the command

lb build

and some 10 to 30 (?) minutes later the .iso is available and can also
be auto-moved somewhere. All the efforts that go into it should be in
sync with the Debian packaging (and thus also improve the Debian
experience). I am not exactly sure about what other kind of symbioses we
find between parts of our LinuxCNC community and any such .iso, but the
number of potential contributors is higher than it would be for the
development of LinuxCNC itself, I am sure..

Best,
Steffen



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Re: [Emc-developers] Eye candy is important - Titan got a new German friend - want that reaction for a LinuxCNC controller

[Hans Unzner]

Am Di., 29. Nov. 2022 um 23:15 Uhr schrieb andy pugh :

> On Tue, 29 Nov 2022 at 20:59, Rod Webster  wrote:
>
> Why would we bother hosting our own ISO on slow servers and put our limited
> > resources into building and maintaining said ISO's when the new paradigm
> is
> > already with us right now?
> >
>
> It's to lower the bar for Windows users, trying to make it as simple as
> possible.
>
>
It lowers the bar for everyone. Installing a real time kernel and all the
dependencies might keep some people from just trying it.
And it allows running it as a live system without even needing to install
something.

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Re: [Emc-developers] Merge Strategy

[Chris Morley]

Yes that is an advantage in theory. though I think people are over stating that 
problem.
The eventual cost is, error prone, slow to happen merges that only a couple 
developers can/will do.
Hopefully we can gain a bunch more savvy developers and this would be a much 
smaller problem.

Chris

From: andy pugh 
Sent: November 30, 2022 12:11 PM
To: EMC developers 
Subject: Re: [Emc-developers] Merge Strategy

On Wed, 30 Nov 2022 at 12:04, Chris Morley 
wrote:

I presented my idea to see if anyone could show a fatal flaw of it so I
> appreciate the discussion/feedback.


I think the only advantage of our current strategy (and it's not a good
one) is that if things get forgotten then they will still be merged by
accident when someone merges their own work, so less stuff gets lost.

--
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is designed
for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912

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Re: [Emc-developers] Merge Strategy

[Chris Morley]

We could possibly establish a "forgotten but still pressing PR"-committee that 
submitters can call when they (I mean, their patches) feel neglected?

Best,
Steffen

To be clear, I was discussing strategy of branch-to-branch merges not pull 
request merges.

Chris

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Re: [Emc-developers] Merge Strategy

[Steffen Möller]

That video conferencing seemed helpful to have some older PRs looked into. We 
did not do it last time, but maybe any such routine would help. It is a complex 
software we are talking about one quickly is beyond one's immediate wits, 
shying away from that responsibility. So having many individual and experiences 
jointly looking at the same patch may be beneficial. And for the older PRs the 
responsible individuals (submitters) may not always be available, still.

I suggest to release a nice version 2.9, and then have some talking about what 
we want for release 2.10/3.0 and how we should get there. I find that for the 
documentation this works very nice these days. Everyone knows that @hansu has a 
rigorous eye+judgement on what is submitted - and we/hansu know when to ask and 
everyone knows that we/hansu will ask when there is a need to get something 
clarified. Maybe we can have more such teams that address some distinct corner 
of LinuxCNC?

We could possibly establish a "forgotten but still pressing PR"-committee that 
submitters can call when they (I mean, their patches) feel neglected?

Best,
Steffen 

> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 30. November 2022 um 13:00 Uhr
> Von: "Chris Morley" 
> An: "EMC developers" 
> Betreff: Re: [Emc-developers] Merge Strategy
>
> Our current strategy has not been always right in the past.
> I have occasionally had to fix merges after the fact because someone merged 
> them wrong.
> (People have occasionally had to fix my merge mistakes too.)
> Which is not surprising considering the type of files I usually work on (XML).
> I have had to wait for up merges to get needed work to master.
> The conflicts you are talking of are probably because I put separate commits 
> in each branch because I was tired of waiting.
> 
> Of course 2.9 to master will be easy for a while but the same problem will 
> come back.
> Even more so if the Debian inclusion gives us many more pull requests from 
> non devs.
> 
> I just think that having only about 4 devs that actually do merges is not a 
> good games plan.
> I presented my idea to see if anyone could show a fatal flaw of it so I 
> appreciate the discussion/feedback.
> So far no fatal flaw, other then it's different.
> 
> But I also recognise I'm not convincing anyone so I guess I will try to let 
> it go :)
> But again thanks for the discussion, that was the most important part!
> 
> Chris
> 
> From: andy pugh 
> Sent: November 30, 2022 10:24 AM
> To: EMC developers 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-developers] Merge Strategy
> 
> On Wed, 30 Nov 2022 at 07:38, Chris Morley 
> wrote:
> 
> >
> > The only solution, given our current strategy, is to wait/ask for someone
> > else to fix it.
> > This is the crux of the problem.
> 
> 
> I think that our current merge-up strategy has been right in the past and
> will be right again, but currently there are significant conflicts between
> the tip of 2.8 and 2.9. These seem to be mainly docs and the fallout of me
> merging 7i96S support "backwards".
> 
> I think we need a one-off effort to make sure that there aren't any
> important bug fixes in 2.8 needed in 2.9 but in general I think that the
> outstanding commits should be marked as merged (for housekeeping reasons)
> but with the code remaining as the 2.9 version unless there is an obviously
> necessary fix. I think that in general this is going to mean just git
> checkout --ours conflicted.file but with a look at the commit
> description to see if a fix (possibly one different from either existing
> file) is needed.
> 
> Here is the conflict list.
> 
> Auto-merging src/hal/drivers/mesa-hostmot2/pins.c
> 
> CONFLICT (content): Merge conflict in src/hal/drivers/mesa-hostmot2/pins.c
> 
> Auto-merging src/hal/drivers/mesa-hostmot2/hostmot2.h
> 
> CONFLICT (content): Merge conflict in
> src/hal/drivers/mesa-hostmot2/hostmot2.h
> 
> Auto-merging src/hal/drivers/mesa-hostmot2/hostmot2.c
> 
> CONFLICT (content): Merge conflict in
> src/hal/drivers/mesa-hostmot2/hostmot2.c
> 
> Auto-merging src/hal/drivers/mesa-hostmot2/hm2_eth.c
> 
> Auto-merging src/emc/usr_intf/pncconf/private_data.py
> 
> CONFLICT (content): Merge conflict in
> src/emc/usr_intf/pncconf/private_data.py
> 
> Auto-merging src/emc/usr_intf/pncconf/pncconf.py
> 
> CONFLICT (content): Merge conflict in src/emc/usr_intf/pncconf/pncconf.py
> 
> Auto-merging src/emc/usr_intf/pncconf/build_HAL.py
> 
> CONFLICT (content): Merge conflict in src/emc/usr_intf/pncconf/build_HAL.py
> 
> Auto-merging src/emc/usr_intf/gmoccapy/release_notes.txt
> 
> CONFLICT (content): Merge conflict in
> src/emc/usr_intf/gmoccapy/release_notes.txt
> 
> Auto-merging src/emc/usr_intf/gmoccapy/gmoccapy.py
> 
> Auto-merging src/emc/usr_intf/gmoccapy/getiniinfo.py
> 
> Auto-merging src/emc/usr_intf/emcrsh.cc
> 
> Auto-merging src/Makefile
> 
> Auto-merging share/qtvcp/panels/cam_align/cam_align_handler.py
> 
> CONFLICT (content): Merge conflict in
> share/qtvcp/panels/cam_align/cam_align_handler.py
> 
> 

Re: [Emc-developers] Merge Strategy

[andy pugh]

On Wed, 30 Nov 2022 at 12:04, Chris Morley 
wrote:

I presented my idea to see if anyone could show a fatal flaw of it so I
> appreciate the discussion/feedback.


I think the only advantage of our current strategy (and it's not a good
one) is that if things get forgotten then they will still be merged by
accident when someone merges their own work, so less stuff gets lost.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is designed
for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912

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Re: [Emc-developers] Eye candy is important - Titan got a new German friend - want that reaction for a LinuxCNC controller

[Leonardo Marsaglia]

>
> If you want eye candy, the Datron UI is rather well done:
> https://youtu.be/ZgqCY3gUHcM


That probing feature looks really nice. I wonder if they are using image
recognition to snap the lines correctly so If I draw the lines to probe way
out of the real part corner the system could identify that mistake and warn
the user.


El mar, 29 nov 2022 a las 16:24, andy pugh () escribió:

> On Tue, 29 Nov 2022 at 16:53, Steffen Möller 
> wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > No need to watch this, really. Titan has a nice Heller machine and passes
> > the Sinumeric control
> > https://youtu.be/zToKZtqQMIo?t=354
> > with some excitement. I actually find LinuxCNC even nicer, especially for
> > what I saw from https://www.qtpyvcp.com/ .
>
>
> If you want eye candy, the Datron UI is rather well done:
> https://youtu.be/ZgqCY3gUHcM
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is designed
> for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
>
> ___
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers
>

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Re: [Emc-developers] Merge Strategy

[Chris Morley]

Our current strategy has not been always right in the past.
I have occasionally had to fix merges after the fact because someone merged 
them wrong.
(People have occasionally had to fix my merge mistakes too.)
Which is not surprising considering the type of files I usually work on (XML).
I have had to wait for up merges to get needed work to master.
The conflicts you are talking of are probably because I put separate commits in 
each branch because I was tired of waiting.

Of course 2.9 to master will be easy for a while but the same problem will come 
back.
Even more so if the Debian inclusion gives us many more pull requests from non 
devs.

I just think that having only about 4 devs that actually do merges is not a 
good games plan.
I presented my idea to see if anyone could show a fatal flaw of it so I 
appreciate the discussion/feedback.
So far no fatal flaw, other then it's different.

But I also recognise I'm not convincing anyone so I guess I will try to let it 
go :)
But again thanks for the discussion, that was the most important part!

Chris

From: andy pugh 
Sent: November 30, 2022 10:24 AM
To: EMC developers 
Subject: Re: [Emc-developers] Merge Strategy

On Wed, 30 Nov 2022 at 07:38, Chris Morley 
wrote:

>
> The only solution, given our current strategy, is to wait/ask for someone
> else to fix it.
> This is the crux of the problem.


I think that our current merge-up strategy has been right in the past and
will be right again, but currently there are significant conflicts between
the tip of 2.8 and 2.9. These seem to be mainly docs and the fallout of me
merging 7i96S support "backwards".

I think we need a one-off effort to make sure that there aren't any
important bug fixes in 2.8 needed in 2.9 but in general I think that the
outstanding commits should be marked as merged (for housekeeping reasons)
but with the code remaining as the 2.9 version unless there is an obviously
necessary fix. I think that in general this is going to mean just git
checkout --ours conflicted.file but with a look at the commit
description to see if a fix (possibly one different from either existing
file) is needed.

Here is the conflict list.

Auto-merging src/hal/drivers/mesa-hostmot2/pins.c

CONFLICT (content): Merge conflict in src/hal/drivers/mesa-hostmot2/pins.c

Auto-merging src/hal/drivers/mesa-hostmot2/hostmot2.h

CONFLICT (content): Merge conflict in
src/hal/drivers/mesa-hostmot2/hostmot2.h

Auto-merging src/hal/drivers/mesa-hostmot2/hostmot2.c

CONFLICT (content): Merge conflict in
src/hal/drivers/mesa-hostmot2/hostmot2.c

Auto-merging src/hal/drivers/mesa-hostmot2/hm2_eth.c

Auto-merging src/emc/usr_intf/pncconf/private_data.py

CONFLICT (content): Merge conflict in
src/emc/usr_intf/pncconf/private_data.py

Auto-merging src/emc/usr_intf/pncconf/pncconf.py

CONFLICT (content): Merge conflict in src/emc/usr_intf/pncconf/pncconf.py

Auto-merging src/emc/usr_intf/pncconf/build_HAL.py

CONFLICT (content): Merge conflict in src/emc/usr_intf/pncconf/build_HAL.py

Auto-merging src/emc/usr_intf/gmoccapy/release_notes.txt

CONFLICT (content): Merge conflict in
src/emc/usr_intf/gmoccapy/release_notes.txt

Auto-merging src/emc/usr_intf/gmoccapy/gmoccapy.py

Auto-merging src/emc/usr_intf/gmoccapy/getiniinfo.py

Auto-merging src/emc/usr_intf/emcrsh.cc

Auto-merging src/Makefile

Auto-merging share/qtvcp/panels/cam_align/cam_align_handler.py

CONFLICT (content): Merge conflict in
share/qtvcp/panels/cam_align/cam_align_handler.py

CONFLICT (modify/delete): docs/src/gui/gmoccapy.txt deleted in HEAD and
modified in 2.8. Version 2.8 of docs/src/gui/gmoccapy.txt left in tree.

CONFLICT (modify/delete): docs/src/getting-started/getting-linuxcnc_es.txt
deleted in HEAD and modified in 2.8. Version 2.8 of
docs/src/getting-started/getting-linuxcnc_es.txt left in tree.

CONFLICT (modify/delete): docs/src/getting-started/getting-linuxcnc.txt
deleted in HEAD and modified in 2.8. Version 2.8 of
docs/src/getting-started/getting-linuxcnc.txt left in tree.

CONFLICT (modify/delete): docs/src/getting-started/getting-linuxcnc-cn.txt
deleted in HEAD and modified in 2.8. Version 2.8 of
docs/src/getting-started/getting-linuxcnc-cn.txt left in tree.

Auto-merging docs/man/man9/hostmot2.9

CONFLICT (content): Merge conflict in docs/man/man9/hostmot2.9

Auto-merging docs/man/man9/hm2_eth.9

Auto-merging debian/changelog

CONFLICT (content): Merge conflict in debian/changelog

Auto-merging VERSION

CONFLICT (content): Merge conflict in VERSION

warning: inexact rename detection was skipped due to too many files.

warning: you may want to set your merge.renamelimit variable to at least
2086 and retry the command.

Automatic merge failed; fix conflicts and then commit the result.



pins.c, hostmot2.h, hostmot2.c, release_notes.txt, hostmot2.9, hm2_eth.9
changelog and VERSION should all be resolved by --ours.

That leaves pncconf private_data.py, pnconf.py builf_HAL.py from pncconf. I
think that these, too, are a 

Re: [Emc-developers] LinuxCNC 2.9~pre ISO tmp URL Aw: Re: Eye candy isimportant - Titan got a new German friend - want that reaction for aLinuxCNC controller

[andy pugh]

On Wed, 30 Nov 2022 at 10:19, gene heskett  wrote:

I assume this is a live demo that can be installed too? Did I miss the
> original announcement?
>

There isn't an announcement, this is a test build of the ISO and unless you
have a sacrificial machine that isn't making parts then you should ignore
it.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is designed
for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912

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Re: [Emc-developers] Merge Strategy

[andy pugh]

On Wed, 30 Nov 2022 at 07:38, Chris Morley 
wrote:

>
> The only solution, given our current strategy, is to wait/ask for someone
> else to fix it.
> This is the crux of the problem.


I think that our current merge-up strategy has been right in the past and
will be right again, but currently there are significant conflicts between
the tip of 2.8 and 2.9. These seem to be mainly docs and the fallout of me
merging 7i96S support "backwards".

I think we need a one-off effort to make sure that there aren't any
important bug fixes in 2.8 needed in 2.9 but in general I think that the
outstanding commits should be marked as merged (for housekeeping reasons)
but with the code remaining as the 2.9 version unless there is an obviously
necessary fix. I think that in general this is going to mean just git
checkout --ours conflicted.file but with a look at the commit
description to see if a fix (possibly one different from either existing
file) is needed.

Here is the conflict list.

Auto-merging src/hal/drivers/mesa-hostmot2/pins.c

CONFLICT (content): Merge conflict in src/hal/drivers/mesa-hostmot2/pins.c

Auto-merging src/hal/drivers/mesa-hostmot2/hostmot2.h

CONFLICT (content): Merge conflict in
src/hal/drivers/mesa-hostmot2/hostmot2.h

Auto-merging src/hal/drivers/mesa-hostmot2/hostmot2.c

CONFLICT (content): Merge conflict in
src/hal/drivers/mesa-hostmot2/hostmot2.c

Auto-merging src/hal/drivers/mesa-hostmot2/hm2_eth.c

Auto-merging src/emc/usr_intf/pncconf/private_data.py

CONFLICT (content): Merge conflict in
src/emc/usr_intf/pncconf/private_data.py

Auto-merging src/emc/usr_intf/pncconf/pncconf.py

CONFLICT (content): Merge conflict in src/emc/usr_intf/pncconf/pncconf.py

Auto-merging src/emc/usr_intf/pncconf/build_HAL.py

CONFLICT (content): Merge conflict in src/emc/usr_intf/pncconf/build_HAL.py

Auto-merging src/emc/usr_intf/gmoccapy/release_notes.txt

CONFLICT (content): Merge conflict in
src/emc/usr_intf/gmoccapy/release_notes.txt

Auto-merging src/emc/usr_intf/gmoccapy/gmoccapy.py

Auto-merging src/emc/usr_intf/gmoccapy/getiniinfo.py

Auto-merging src/emc/usr_intf/emcrsh.cc

Auto-merging src/Makefile

Auto-merging share/qtvcp/panels/cam_align/cam_align_handler.py

CONFLICT (content): Merge conflict in
share/qtvcp/panels/cam_align/cam_align_handler.py

CONFLICT (modify/delete): docs/src/gui/gmoccapy.txt deleted in HEAD and
modified in 2.8. Version 2.8 of docs/src/gui/gmoccapy.txt left in tree.

CONFLICT (modify/delete): docs/src/getting-started/getting-linuxcnc_es.txt
deleted in HEAD and modified in 2.8. Version 2.8 of
docs/src/getting-started/getting-linuxcnc_es.txt left in tree.

CONFLICT (modify/delete): docs/src/getting-started/getting-linuxcnc.txt
deleted in HEAD and modified in 2.8. Version 2.8 of
docs/src/getting-started/getting-linuxcnc.txt left in tree.

CONFLICT (modify/delete): docs/src/getting-started/getting-linuxcnc-cn.txt
deleted in HEAD and modified in 2.8. Version 2.8 of
docs/src/getting-started/getting-linuxcnc-cn.txt left in tree.

Auto-merging docs/man/man9/hostmot2.9

CONFLICT (content): Merge conflict in docs/man/man9/hostmot2.9

Auto-merging docs/man/man9/hm2_eth.9

Auto-merging debian/changelog

CONFLICT (content): Merge conflict in debian/changelog

Auto-merging VERSION

CONFLICT (content): Merge conflict in VERSION

warning: inexact rename detection was skipped due to too many files.

warning: you may want to set your merge.renamelimit variable to at least
2086 and retry the command.

Automatic merge failed; fix conflicts and then commit the result.



pins.c, hostmot2.h, hostmot2.c, release_notes.txt, hostmot2.9, hm2_eth.9
changelog and VERSION should all be resolved by --ours.

That leaves pncconf private_data.py, pnconf.py builf_HAL.py from pncconf. I
think that these, too, are a result of the 7i96s support and need to be
solved with --ours.

That leaves some docs fixes (which are easy to understand)

So, the only one that I don't know how to solve just by looking at the list
is cam_align_handler.py.

My proposal is to do this as (probably) the last merge of 2.8 to 2.9 and
then I think that 2.9 to master going forwards will go more smoothly.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is designed
for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912

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Re: [Emc-developers] LinuxCNC 2.9~pre ISO tmp URL Aw: Re: Eye candy isimportant - Titan got a new German friend - want that reaction for aLinuxCNC controller

[gene heskett]

On 11/30/22 04:28, Steffen Möller wrote:

Gesendet: Dienstag, 29. November 2022 um 23:10 Uhr
Von: "andy pugh" 
An: "EMC developers" 
Betreff: Re: [Emc-developers] Eye candy is important - Titan got a new German 
friend - want that reaction for a LinuxCNC controller

On Tue, 29 Nov 2022 at 20:59, Rod Webster  wrote:


Why would we bother hosting our own ISO on slow servers and put our limited
resources into building and maintaining said ISO's when the new paradigm is
already with us right now?



It's to lower the bar for Windows users, trying to make it as simple as
possible.

They need to install an ISO anyway, it might as well be ours for a one-step
process.


Yes, increasing our user and developer base was what triggered my personal 
ambitions to get this out nicely. But that live systems is also helpful to 
reproduce each other's problems, I expect. You can take that same USB stick to 
different machines in the house and check, e.g., for effects on the latency or 
whatever.

Andy kindly put my shot from now two weeks ago (Debian bookworm amd64) at 
https://www.linuxcnc.org/iso/LinuxCNC_2.9.0-amd64.hybrid.iso (<3GB) for you all 
to try.

Best,
Steffen




I assume this is a live demo that can be installed too? Did I miss the 
original announcement?


Thank you Steffan.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 



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Re: [Emc-developers] Eye candy is important - Titan got a new German friend - want that reaction for a LinuxCNC controller

[Steffen Möller]

> Gesendet: Dienstag, 29. November 2022 um 22:15 Uhr
> Von: "Phill Carter" 
> An: "linuxcnc-developers" 
> Betreff: Re: [Emc-developers] Eye candy is important - Titan got a new German 
> friend - want that reaction for a LinuxCNC controller
>
>
>
> > On 30 Nov 2022, at 7:54 am, Rod Webster  wrote:
> >
> > @steffen, there is a script to install qtpyvcp dependencies in:
> >
> > /usr/lib/python3/dist-packages/qtvcp/designer/install_script
> >
> > Its documented in QTplasmac, not sure if its mentioned elsewhere
> > http://linuxcnc.org/docs/devel/html/plasma/qtplasmac.html#qt-dependency
>
> The above script is for QtVCP dependencies.

Ah - many thanks!

I need to check and make sure that we have everything in Debian, such that this 
script (or other magic) is no longer needed.

Best,
Steffen


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[Emc-developers] LinuxCNC 2.9~pre ISO tmp URL Aw: Re: Eye candy is important - Titan got a new German friend - want that reaction for a LinuxCNC controller

[Steffen Möller]

> Gesendet: Dienstag, 29. November 2022 um 23:10 Uhr
> Von: "andy pugh" 
> An: "EMC developers" 
> Betreff: Re: [Emc-developers] Eye candy is important - Titan got a new German 
> friend - want that reaction for a LinuxCNC controller
>
> On Tue, 29 Nov 2022 at 20:59, Rod Webster  wrote:
>
> > Why would we bother hosting our own ISO on slow servers and put our limited
> > resources into building and maintaining said ISO's when the new paradigm is
> > already with us right now?

> It's to lower the bar for Windows users, trying to make it as simple as
> possible.
>
> They need to install an ISO anyway, it might as well be ours for a one-step
> process.

Yes, increasing our user and developer base was what triggered my personal 
ambitions to get this out nicely. But that live systems is also helpful to 
reproduce each other's problems, I expect. You can take that same USB stick to 
different machines in the house and check, e.g., for effects on the latency or 
whatever.

Andy kindly put my shot from now two weeks ago (Debian bookworm amd64) at 
https://www.linuxcnc.org/iso/LinuxCNC_2.9.0-amd64.hybrid.iso (<3GB) for you all 
to try.

Best,
Steffen



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Re: [Emc-developers] Eye candy is important - Titan got a new German friend - want that reaction for a LinuxCNC controller

[Steffen Möller]

> Gesendet: Dienstag, 29. November 2022 um 20:19 Uhr
> Von: "andy pugh" 
> An: "EMC developers" 
> Betreff: Re: [Emc-developers] Eye candy is important - Titan got a new German 
> friend - want that reaction for a LinuxCNC controller
>
> On Tue, 29 Nov 2022 at 16:53, Steffen Möller  wrote:
> 
> > Hello,
> >
> > No need to watch this, really. Titan has a nice Heller machine and passes
> > the Sinumeric control
> > https://youtu.be/zToKZtqQMIo?t=354
> > with some excitement. I actually find LinuxCNC even nicer, especially for
> > what I saw from https://www.qtpyvcp.com/ .
> 
> 
> If you want eye candy, the Datron UI is rather well done:
> https://youtu.be/ZgqCY3gUHcM

I had seen that video, and indeed, I liked it (and still like it). But they do 
not run LinuxCNC underneath, do they? Still, as an idea for how to develop - 
yes!!!

Thank you!
Steffen


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Re: [Emc-developers] Eye candy is important - Titan got a new German friend - want that reaction for a LinuxCNC controller

[Steffen Möller]

I will happily watch it. Titan has (had?) some Tormach machines, so he likely 
already has (had?) LinuxCNC in house. With his zoo of machines, and his 
interest in education and "doing stuff here" (which is "there" for me), there 
should be a nice story that has not yet been told too often that you can 
implement with LinuxCNC in an easier way than with current closed-source 
controllers. That should make an interesting LinuxCNC-promoting video for him 
(and us).

Rough ideas:
 * cutting gears with a CNC at weird places that would be difficult to reach 
with traditional gear cutters
 * integrating a camera into a machine that was bought without one
 * integrating a robot/pneumatics/... into a machine that was bought without
 * a portable CNC for repairs in the field (like moon, mars or some ship on our 
own planet) that has an integrated temperature sensor/camera to compensate for 
variations in temperature
 * using the same controller for something completely different, like 
distinguishing your cat from the neighbour's cat to decide if the cat door 
should open.

Thank you!

Steffen

> Gesendet: Dienstag, 29. November 2022 um 23:23 Uhr
> Von: "Feral Engineer" 
> An: "EMC developers" 
> Betreff: Re: [Emc-developers] Eye candy is important - Titan got a new German 
> friend - want that reaction for a LinuxCNC controller
>
> There's that one interface that's a blatant rip off of a siemens control
> that would be a great addition
> 
> Maybe I'll just do a generic video and whoever wants to watch it, will
> 
> Phil T.
> The Feral Engineer
> 
> Check out my LinuxCNC tutorials, machine builds and other antics at
> www.youtube.com/c/theferalengineer
> 
> Help support my channel efforts and coffee addiction:
> www.patreon.com/theferalengineer
> 
> Order one of the coolest label makers on the market at
> http://labelworks.epson.com, use coupon code "theferalengineer" and receive
> 20% off of your order 
> 
> On Tue, Nov 29, 2022, 4:57 PM Eric Keller  wrote:
> 
> > I would watch your demonstration of the Siemens control and I'm
> > anxiously awaiting your implementation of a similar interface on
> > linuxcnc.  As long as the demonstration doesn't involve any screaming.
> > Eric Keller
> > Boalsburg, Pennsylvania
> >
> > On Tue, Nov 29, 2022 at 1:24 PM Feral Engineer
> >  wrote:
> > >
> > > That dude is a goofball and that version of Sinumerik looks like 20
> > pounds
> > > of crap in a 10 pound bag. They put away too much on the screen and it
> > > blocks most of the hmi. I thought we used up a lot of real estate on our
> > > screens (DMG Mori), these Heller machines have got us beat...
> > >
> > > Seriously... I'll give a presentation on the siemens control to anyone
> > > interested in seeing it. Why do I always feel like I'm screaming into a
> > > black hole here?
> > >
> > > Phil T.
> > > The Feral Engineer
> > >
> > > Check out my LinuxCNC tutorials, machine builds and other antics at
> > > www.youtube.com/c/theferalengineer
> > >
> > > Help support my channel efforts and coffee addiction:
> > > www.patreon.com/theferalengineer
> > >
> > > Order one of the coolest label makers on the market at
> > > http://labelworks.epson.com, use coupon code "theferalengineer" and
> > receive
> > > 20% off of your order 
> > >
> > > On Tue, Nov 29, 2022, 11:53 AM Steffen Möller 
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hello,
> > > >
> > > > No need to watch this, really. Titan has a nice Heller machine and
> > passes
> > > > the Sinumeric control
> > > > https://youtu.be/zToKZtqQMIo?t=354
> > > > with some excitement. I actually find LinuxCNC even nicer, especially
> > for
> > > > what I saw from https://www.qtpyvcp.com/ .
> > > >
> > > > When we yesterday had this OpenMike session again, we had felt like
> > there
> > > > should be four USB sticks prepared:
> > > >   a) for two distros - Bullseye (Debian stable) and Bookworm (Debian
> > > > testing, soon stable)
> > > >   b) in two flavours - minimalistic and fully-featured (including
> > FreeCAD
> > > > and Inkscape to make a good impression on those who come from the
> > other OS)
> > > >
> > > > Andy had some confidence (and I share that) that the generation of
> > those
> > > > .iso files per se is not difficult. It was not immediately clear where
> > the
> > > > generation of those .iso files should happen, but the builders
> > maintained
> > > > by Sebastian are a likely target IMO.
> > > >
> > > > Question: Is there anybody out there who would like to work with me on
> > a
> > > > description and implementation of what the fully-featured .ISO should
> > like
> > > > alike? This would be Intel-only as a start, leaving everything for the
> > RPi
> > > > to Raspbian for the time being.
> > > >
> > > > There are a couple of Python libraries still missing on Debian to get
> > > > QtPyVCP installed. This would likely be something for me to address.
> > > >
> > > > Best,
> > > > Steffem
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ___
> > > >