of order (Platonia) and one of disorder or entropy (Contingia).
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
9/29/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
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of these as the energy states of a monad.
2) The monad also has a stack of appetites, which
you might think of its potential desire or will. Hence
L's reference to the internally viewed appetite as free will.
Besides the appetites, the monad also has an internal energy source.
Roger Clough, rclo
?v=fJ-D5AUGVcI
I believe that entropy begins to eventually
diminish as gravity.
It may be that comp and the Turing machine have analogous
behaviors.
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Sender: Roger Clough
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Time: 2012-09-29, 04:18:28
Subject: Platonia
.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
9/30/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
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From: Stephen P. King
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2012-09-29, 19:54:56
Subject: Re: Epiphenomenalism
On 9/29/2012 10:11 AM, Bruno
divisible. Or one might substitute
Einstein's principle of the relativity of spacetime.
The uncertainties left with us by Heisenberg on
the small scale and Einstein on the large scale
ought to cause materialists to base their beliefs on
something less elusive than matter.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
9/30/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
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Time: 2012-09-29, 10:29:23
Subject: Re: questions on machines, belief, awareness
Only life evolves, and steel claws, being made of steel, are not alive,
at least in the ordinary sense (Leibniz believed that everything in
the universe is alive). So what you propose couldn't happen.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
9/30/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near
.
5. So evolution is a cosmic crap shoot with an variably intelligent player.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
9/30/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
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monad, which might
represent a species. Or perhaps the tree of life itself.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
9/30/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
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Hi Bruno Marchal
My responses are indicated with s
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Time: 2012-09-30, 13:58:19
Subject: Re: Einstein and space
Hi Roger Clough,
I have regrouped my comments because they are related
Hi Stephen P. King
Good idea, but unfortunately monads are not numbers,
numbers will now guide them or replace them.
Monads have to be associated with corporeal bodies down here in
contingia, where crap happens.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/1/2012
Forever is a long time
in the definition
of the self, I prefer to use the term self-determination,
meaning that our will and thought and desifre
is affected by everything within our skin.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/1/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
- Receiving the following
Hi Stathis Papaioannou
Numbers were there before man.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/1/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
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Hi Stephen P. King
Good luck with improving Leibniz, but
I see no problem with his ideas. He
even has nonlocal QM in his schema.
Materialists hate that.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/1/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
- Receiving
for evolution. Imperfect things
evolve, they are part of Contingia.
But perfect things always were.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/1/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
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design or structure. Fill in the dots.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/1/2012
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Subject: Re: Zombieopolis
Hi Bruno Marchal
Responses indicated by $$s
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/1/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
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Time: 2012-10-01, 11:26:24
say it this alternate way. The output
of an algorithm (let's say a choice, given an input)
is always dependent on what the algorithm did.
And algorithms are software.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/1/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
- Receiving
at the raw stuff without filtering
it through an individual's eyes-- the objective account--
will not completely tell you how well that raw account
emulates life. You need to 1p filter it to get its meaning.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/2/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near
Hi Stathis Papaioannou
The self is not the brain, which is objective.
The self is the subjective or personal view of what the brain does.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/2/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
- Receiving the following content
Statis,
A more concise response would be that the self is the brain's
activity from a certain point of view (yours).
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/2/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
- Receiving the following content -
From: Roger
On 01 Oct 2012, at 19:37, Roger Clough wrote:
Hi Bruno Marchal
A brain in a vat would probably have an autonomous self,
which is needed for everything the brain does.
I don't see how an autonomous self can be present in
a computer, because autonomous means it can't depend
Hi Bruno Marchal
My understanding of personal or subjective or 1p filtering
has little to do with where the person is (Washington or Moscow).
it has to do (if I might say it this way) with where the person has been.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/2/2012
Forever is a long time
must be based mostly on the inside = the
selector's mind. In other words,
autonomous = a priori
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/2/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
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consists
of monads within monads within monads within.
Would that overcome your objection ?
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/2/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
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Hi Richard Ruquist
Absolutely.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/2/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
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Time: 2012-10-01, 16:51:44
Subject: Re: Numbers
Hi Bruno Marchal
Responses in **
We're pretty much aligned.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/2/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
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Time: 2012-10-02
Hi Bruno Marchal
Responses at ==
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/3/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
I think so (except perhaps on Jesus, but we can come back on this later ... I
don't think it is so important, now
Hi Craig Weinberg
My responses as
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/3/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
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not
aware of any attempts to specify a self.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/4/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
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Hi Stephen P. King
Many thanks, Stephan !
I should have known it before, but
double-aspect and/or dual-aspect theories
of mind aren't afraid of using the word
subjectivity.
Now all they have to do is find out
who or what is the subjectr of subjectivity !
Roger Clough, rclo
not referring here to chaos theory, as it only seems to work with
nonlinear mathematical functions, not real entities.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/5/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
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Hi Stathis Papaioannou
You left out the guy who puts together the pieces.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/5/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
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Time
consciousness, cognition, etc. cannot not be explained by materialism.
Richard
On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 6:02 AM, Roger Clough wrote:
Hi Stephen P. King
Many thanks, Stephan !
I should have known it before, but
double-aspect and/or dual-aspect theories
of mind aren't afraid of using
Hi lennartn
Thanks, LN,
I ordered a copy. Stephen might be insterested in
looking at the table of contents at amazon ,
it has a chapter on (w)holes.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/6/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
- Receiving the following
. Could you be wrong ?
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/6/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
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From: Bruno Marchal
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2012-10-05, 11:13:06
Subject: Re: Subjectivity is no longer
Hi Bruno Marchal
Perhaps mind, like Maxwell's Demon, makes sense of
raw experience. Finds structure or whatever. That's
called Secondness.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/6/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
- Receiving the following content
Hi Bruno Marchal
I wonder if something like this, used as a (Secondness) filter on the
(Firstness)
output of comp , could provide (Thirdness) structured consciousness.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/6/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
Hi Bruno Marchal
IMHO mind is constructive mathematics,
creating meaningful structures from raw experience.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/6/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
- Receiving the following content -
From: Bruno Marchal
must be processed, i.e.
recognized,
or it would just be noise -- less even than a dream or nothing to us, as
Kant
alternatively puts it.
.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/6/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
- Receiving the following content
Hi Stathis Papaioannou
Where did the laws of physics and chemistry come
from that enable it to work ? The Tooth Fairy ?
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/6/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
- Receiving the following content -
From: Stathis
Hi Stephen P. King
I'm no mathematician, so what do I know, but
Russell's paradox would seem to be an alternate
incompleteness theorem to Godel's.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/6/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
- Receiving the following
Hi Stephen P. King
IMHO A universe with 0 objects could still contain Mind--
which had to be there before the universe was created.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/6/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
- Receiving the following content
Hi meekerdb and all,
Perhaps I am missing something. Isn't this a false dilemma ?
Why couldn't evolution and reason exist together ?
For there must be a reason for everything that happens.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/6/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody
causation, not the traditional effective causation.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/6/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
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From: Richard Ruquist
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2012-10-05, 14:22:12
Subject: Re
Hi meekerdb
No, I haven't read them, but if they had
a sensible explanation of the creation of life
from inert matter, we'd all have heard of it by now.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/6/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
- Receiving
Hi Bruno Marchal
How does comp include subjectivity ?
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/6/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
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From: Bruno Marchal
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Time: 2012-10-06, 08:48:04
Hi Stathis Papaioannou
Don't avoid my question please.
Where do the laws of physics come from ?
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/6/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
- Receiving the following content -
From: Stathis Papaioannou
Receiver
Hi Evgenii Rudnyi
He's got it all mixed up.
Physics deals with objects extended in space. Things.
Metaphysics deals with inextended objects. Ideas.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/7/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
- Receiving the following
Hi Evgenii Rudnyi
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/7/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
- Receiving the following content -
From: Evgenii Rudnyi
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2012-10-06, 13:25:53
Subject: Maxwell on Metaphysics and Theology
publicly available, since it uses publicly available symbols or
code.
Consciousness is direct experience, which cannot be put down in code
any more than life can be put down in code. It is personal and not publicly
available.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/7/2012
Forever is a long time
Hi Richard Ruquist
Then where do the CYMs and their properties come from ?
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/7/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
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Time
Hi Evgenii Rudnyi
I know that, but his theory of electromagnetism is a physical theory,
even if it's hard to pin down the extension property.
Physical theories can tell us nothing about philosophy or mind or God,
since they cannot deal with meaning. Physics is meaningless.
Roger Clough
is infinitely divisible. Hence, matter
cannot
form a true unity. Hence, matter cannot explain (be identical with, give rise
to)
perception. If matter cannot explain (be identical to, give rise to)
perception,
then materialism is false. Hence, materialism is false.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/8/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
- Receiving the following content -
From: Alberto G. Corona
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2012-10-07, 09:11:29
Subject: Re: What Kant did: Consciousness is a top-down
producesorder out of chaos. It collapses the many into the one,
perhaps as Penrose envisions consciousness to be, the
collapse of the quantum form of the brain states into one
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/8/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
Hi Bruno Marchal
I was just trying to formulate my view of subjectivity into
terms you use, like 1p, but I only seem to have confused things.
Apparently 1p is not the state of living subjectivity, at best it is a
description of that.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/8/2012
Forever
be experienced as one.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/8/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
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From: Bruno Marchal
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2012-10-07, 10:12:50
Subject: Re: Can computers be conscious ? Re
On 07 Oct 2012, at 14:44, Roger Clough wrote:
Hi Evgenii Rudnyi
I know that, but his theory of electromagnetism is a physical theory,
even if it's hard to pin down the extension property.
Physical theories can tell us nothing about philosophy or mind or God,
since they cannot deal
Hi Evgenii Rudnyi
Yes. But alone, the equations have no human meaning.
Each individual will invent that for himself.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/8/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
- Receiving the following content -
From: Evgenii
Hi Stathis Papaioannou
Computation can give you letters on a page.
Are they conscious ?
There's no way that I can think of however, to prove or
disprove that objects are conscious or not, only that
they may simulate consciousness.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/8/2012
Forever
a computer has.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/8/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
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From: Richard Ruquist
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Time: 2012-10-07, 11:06:17
Subject: Re: Can computers be conscious ? Re
Hi Richard Ruquist
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/8/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
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From: Richard Ruquist
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Time: 2012-10-07, 11:17:19
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: On complexity
Hi Richard Ruquist
Fine, except I think that intelligence, since it was needed
for the Big Bang, had to be there beforehand, where time did not
yet exist. But intelligence is beyond spacetime anyway,
so it always was.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/8/2012
Forever is a long time
, not just
random chance. So it would seem that our current universe
was created by some humungous intelligence.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/8/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
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From: Stathis Papaioannou
Hi Stathis Papaioannou
An atheist with any intelligence would agree with me because
it's just logic.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/8/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
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From: Stathis Papaioannou
Hi Stathis Papaioannou
I would put it that mind is superphysical. Beyond spacetime.
Supernatural as a word carries too much baggage.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/8/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
- Receiving the following content
, because there can never be
some final cutting event, even though the fundamental
particles cannot be divided. There's no there there.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/8/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
- Receiving the following content -
From
Hi Richard Ruquist
True, but to be a monad, you have to be inextended.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/8/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
- Receiving the following content -
From: Richard Ruquist
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Time: 2012
seem to believe, it can think without
considering it as a monad.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/9/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
- Receiving the following content -
From: Roger Clough
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Time: 2012-10-08, 09:25:50
Hi Alberto G. Corona
IMHO the bottom line revolves around the problem of solipsism,
which is that we cannot prove that other people or objects have minds,
we can only say at most that they appear to have minds.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/9/2012
Forever is a long time, especially
is as if rather than is.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/9/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
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From: Alberto G. Corona
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2012-10-08, 15:12:22
Subject: Re: What Kant did
/9/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
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From: Bruno Marchal
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2012-10-08, 10:19:35
Subject: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment
Hi Roger,
On 08 Oct 2012, at 16:14, Roger Clough
Hi Bruno Marchal
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/9/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
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Time: 2012-10-08, 10:19:35
Subject: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment
Hi
Hi Craig Weinberg
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/9/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
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From: Craig Weinberg
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Time: 2012-10-08, 12:02:27
Subject: Conjoined Twins
Have a look
Hi Craig Weinberg
The subjective aspect (Firstness), some of which apparently each twin has, is
not shareable, only descriptions of it (Thirdness) are shareable.
Firstness.
What is shareable is Thirdness. What cannot be shared is Firstness.
Thirdness is the description of
Roger Clough, rclo
Hi Craig Weinberg
Consciousness had to arise before language.
Apes are conscious.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/9/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
- Receiving the following content -
From: Craig Weinberg
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Hi Craig Weinberg
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/9/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
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From: Craig Weinberg
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2012-10-08, 14:25:15
Subject: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment
Hi Craig Weinberg
They can only disagree about experiences that are spoken.
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Hi Craig Weinberg
There are three things:
1) The experiences of each twin, which may be the same or differ (we'll never
know).
2) What they describe or interpret of their experiences in words.
3) They may the same experience but describe it differently.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
. The experience of religion is called
faith, what we can share is called beliefs. So we can truly know
things about religion that we can only partly explain or prove.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/9/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
- Receiving
Hi John Mikes
Intelligence is the ability to make decisions without outside help.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/9/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
- Receiving the following content -
From: John Mikes
Receiver: yanniru
Time: 2012-10
of that
private experience.
Proveable yes or no.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/9/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
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From: Stephen P. King
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2012-10-08, 14:22:20
Subject: Re: The real
Hi meekerdb
Only you can know if you actually have intelligence,
although you can appear to have intelligence (as if).
You can be tested for it.
Thus comp is not different from us, or at least it has the same
limitations.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/9/2012
Forever is a long time
above.
In the meeting place of the above and the below
there exists, analogous to Maxwell's Demon, the active agent
called the self. The self makes sense of sensual data and
stores that in memory. We have learned something.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/9/2012
Forever is a long time
Hi Platonist Guitar Cowboy
The definition of beauty that I like is that
beauty is unity in diversity.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/9/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
- Receiving the following content -
From: Platonist Guitar Cowboy
Hi Stathis,
The separation you missed is that mind and consciousness
are subjective entities(not shareable), while computations
are objective (shareable).
Nature put a firewall between these so we don't get them confused.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/9/2012
Forever is a long time
Hi Roger Clough
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/9/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
- Receiving the following content -
From: Roger Clough
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2012-10-08, 09:19:40
Subject: Re: Re: On complexity and bottom-up
Hi meekerdb
We don't know, nor can we ever know for certain, that
man has created an AGI, because actual intelligence is
subjective, so only the AGI itself can know if it is truly
intelligent. The best we can do is test it to see
if it acts as if it has intelligence.
Roger Clough, rclo
Hi meekerdb
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/9/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
- Receiving the following content -
From: meekerdb
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2012-10-08, 17:18:59
Subject: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment
On 10/8/2012
Hi Richard Ruquist
Nature has put a firewall between subjective entities such as monads
and objective entities such as BECs or the manifolds.
When I said attached I should have said associated to.
There's no physical, only logical connections.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/9/2012
already know and either identifies it as such or modifies it to
another, newly invented or associated description. If you
see two apples, it then calls the image two apples.
Thirdness is what you then call it and can express to others.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/9/2012
Forever is a long
Hi meekerdb
IMHO self is an active agent, something like Maxwell's Demon,
that can intelligently sort raw experiences into meaningful bins, such
as Kant's categories, thus giving them some meaning.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/9/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end
being.
But with the last note it is quiet.
I reach over and straighten an imprecision
of the flowers.
- Roger Clough
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Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/10/2012
Forever
Hi meekerdb
1) If you do not have subjective experience, you are dead.
So subjectivity is necessary for evolution.
2) The self cannot be an illusion, for it is the perceiver.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/10/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
bother me.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/10/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
- Receiving the following content -
From: Kim Jones
Receiver: Everything List
Time: 2012-10-10, 02:54:07
Subject: Yes, Doctor!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news
/ \
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/ life \
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free will--intelligence
Roger
Hi Roger Clough
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/10/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
- Receiving the following content -
From: Roger Clough
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2012-10-10, 07:31:58
Subject: Re: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment
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From: Bruno Marchal
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2012-10-08, 10:19:35
Subject: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment
Hi Roger,
On 08 Oct 2012, at 16:14, Roger Clough wrote:
Hi Stathis Papaioannou
I would put it that mind is superphysical. Beyond spacetime
Hi Stathis Papaioannou
You can be tested for intelligence, but the
enduring solipsist problem shows that you cannot
be tested for consciousness. At least nobody seems to have
come up with such a test.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/10/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near
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