Re: [fonc] Piumarta and Warth’s Open Objects in Scheme

2014-10-29 Thread Julian Leviston
Link broken. Julian http://www.getcontented.com.au/ - You Need GetContented - Make Websites, Not War! On 29 Oct 2014, at 5:55 pm, Kurt Stephens k...@kurtstephens.com wrote: Something I threw together. :) http://devdriven.com/2014/10/piumarta-and-warths-open-objects-in-scheme/ -- KAS

Re: [fonc] Programming Language Theory Stack Exchange

2014-09-27 Thread Julian Leviston
Hehe that's interesting. I'd never associated LTU with modern languages. I'm not sure why. Possibly because of the archaic UX and UI. It's incredibly difficult to parse. J http://www.getcontented.com.au/ - You Need GetContented - Get Your Website Happy. :) On 28 Sep 2014, at 12:37 am, Miles

Re: [fonc] Earley Parsing Explained (incomplete first draft)

2014-09-18 Thread Julian Leviston
On 19 Sep 2014, at 7:11 am, Loup Vaillant-David l...@loup-vaillant.fr wrote: Hi, After spending months banging my head over Earley Parsing, I have decided to write a tutorial. Ian once said Earley parsing is simple and easy to implement. I agree with simple, but not with easy. The

Re: [fonc] maru hg-to-git mirror on github

2014-01-27 Thread Julian Leviston
On 18 Jan 2014, at 7:25 pm, Attila Lendvai attila.lend...@gmail.com wrote: 1 extend the level of my understanding of it 2 use this process to shape the project to be easier to approach for newcomers. then publish results with the hopes of integrating it into the official repo

Re: [fonc] quasiquoting in maru

2013-11-26 Thread Julian Leviston
On 27 Nov 2013, at 1:59 pm, Faré fah...@gmail.com wrote: If you're interested, there's experimentation and design to do, and probably a paper to publish. Forgive me if I'm barking up the wrong tree, but wouldn't it be solved by not using text for source code?

Re: [fonc] Really nice presentation of the VPRI project

2013-11-14 Thread Julian Leviston
I'm curious, does Frank and its precursors (sub-cursors?) include sound, or only visual languages? Julian On 15 Nov 2013, at 5:13 pm, David Girle davidgi...@gmail.com wrote: Figure 1 of TR-2013-002, KScript and KSWorld ... would appear to indicate the headless piece of Frank might be

[fonc] Urbit, Nock, Hoon

2013-09-24 Thread Julian Leviston
http://www.urbit.org/2013/08/22/Chapter-0-intro.html Interesting? Julian ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc

Re: [fonc] New Bret Victor demos

2013-06-03 Thread Julian Leviston
No. The problem isn't that it's hard to express the abstract, the problem is it's hard to express the level of abstraction one is referencing simply without confusion. Julian On 03/06/2013, at 5:48 AM, shawnmorel shawnmo...@me.com wrote: It's pretty difficult to visually express a class of

Re: [fonc] New Bret Victor demos

2013-06-01 Thread Julian Leviston
He does run into some obvious issues expressing linguistic concepts visually, though, doesn't he? About 44:00 in, you can see that he has to explain that fish is just an example used to express a behaviour on *any* object. It's pretty difficult to visually express a class of objects (or any

Re: [fonc] Layering, Thinking and Computing

2013-04-07 Thread Julian Leviston
On 07/04/2013, at 1:48 PM, Tristan Slominski tristan.slomin...@gmail.com wrote: a lot of people seem to have the opinion the language a person communicates in locks them into a certain way of thinking. There is an entire book on the subject, Metaphors We Live By, which profoundly

[fonc] Layering, Thinking and Computing

2013-04-06 Thread Julian Leviston
Something on the recent discussion titled Natural Language Wins got me thinking: a lot of people seem to have the opinion the language a person communicates in locks them into a certain way of thinking. I'm interested in this with respect to programming languages. I've encountered numerous

Re: [fonc] Natural Language Wins

2013-04-05 Thread Julian Leviston
On 05/04/2013, at 7:19 AM, Kirk Fraser overcomer@gmail.com wrote: The main source of invention is not math wins as described on http://www.vpri.org/html/work/ifnct.htm since the world would be speaking math if it were really the source of inspiring more inventions that improve the

Re: [fonc] Natural Language Wins

2013-04-05 Thread Julian Leviston
, Apr 5, 2013 at 2:19 AM, Julian Leviston jul...@leviston.net wrote: On 05/04/2013, at 7:19 AM, Kirk Fraser overcomer@gmail.com wrote: The main source of invention is not math wins as described on http://www.vpri.org/html/work/ifnct.htm since the world would be speaking math if it were

Re: [fonc] Natural Language Wins

2013-04-05 Thread Julian Leviston
of Nobel Prize awards are by Jews, hence in Hebrew. But until the world converts to their superior culture, inventions are best communicated to the world in English since automatic machine translation is frequently imperfect. On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 2:19 AM, Julian Leviston jul...@leviston.net

Re: [fonc] yet another meta compiler compiler

2013-02-09 Thread Julian Leviston
Borglisp, hey? Sounds like Ometa to me. Julian On 10/02/2013, at 6:27 AM, Kjell Godo squeakl...@gmail.com wrote: What will this book be called? I would like to get one when it comes out. Why do you always start with C? Why not start with a higher language like Smalltalk? You could

Re: [fonc] Send Science to the Landfill

2012-12-29 Thread Julian Leviston
I think you've entirely missed what science and mathematics *are*. Deep inquiry into any subject has to involve the divine as you call it here. Go watch some Richard Feynmann videos if you think scientists such as Alan Kay don't subscribe to deeply held beliefs of the mysterious. You can see

Re: [fonc] Send Science to the Landfill

2012-12-29 Thread Julian Leviston
sarcasm But don't you understand? Falun Dafa is the new answer-for-it-all! /sarcasm When will people simply address their fears? We *are* going to die. Julian On 30/12/2012, at 11:08 AM, John Carlson yottz...@gmail.com wrote: Sorry, I use it too much. What I was trying to say was that

Re: [fonc] Falun Dafa

2012-12-22 Thread Julian Leviston
Thank you, captain obvious. Man is a three-centered (three-brained if you will) being. Focussing on only one of the brains is by definition imbalanced. Bring back the renaissance man. Julian On 23/12/2012, at 4:28 AM, John Pratt jpra...@gmail.com wrote: I want to tell everyone on this list

Re: [fonc] Falun Dafa

2012-12-22 Thread Julian Leviston
I think you've missed the point. The point is... you need to use your body and your emotions as well as your mind. Our society is overly focussed on the mind. Julian On 23/12/2012, at 1:52 PM, BGB cr88...@gmail.com wrote: On 12/22/2012 5:52 PM, Julian Leviston wrote: Thank you, captain

Re: [fonc] Views in FoNC

2012-12-08 Thread Julian Leviston
I'm a bit confused - general architecture of what, exactly? Sorry if this is obvious. The organisation? The artefact that VPRI will eventually produce? or FoNC itself? What is a view here? It appears to be inverted for your use. Surely REASON comes before PROCESS, doesn't it? (That is, rather

Re: [fonc] [talk] Cool Code - Kevlin Henney

2012-12-03 Thread Julian Leviston
, it is not helping with the learning process. On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 4:22 AM, Loup Vaillant l...@loup-vaillant.fr wrote: David Barbour a écrit : On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 6:12 AM, Pascal J. Bourguignon p...@informatimago.com mailto:p...@informatimago.com wrote: Julian Leviston jul

Re: [fonc] Final STEP progress report?

2012-11-08 Thread Julian Leviston
How does one donate? Julian On 09/11/2012, at 12:10 PM, Kim Rose kim.r...@vpri.org wrote: Dear Jeff, Good question; honestly support = donations -- but could be you know someone, or some organization, etc, etc. that could be a viable donor but may not be aware of Viewpoints and our

Re: [fonc] The problem with programming languages

2012-05-09 Thread Julian Leviston
people. Anyway, maybe that's what I will try to do during my vacation this year :) Cheers, Jarek 2012/5/8 Julian Leviston jul...@leviston.net Isn't this simply a description of your thought clearing process? You think in English... not Ruby. I'd actually hazard a guess and say

Re: [fonc] The problem with programming languages

2012-05-08 Thread Julian Leviston
I disagree. We do our best. This is always the case. The problem with language is ... there is no problem. The problem is with people and their lack of awareness. I agree that our best currently sucks, though. Words aren't the things they refer to - they're just pointers. The only way to

Re: [fonc] The problem with programming languages

2012-05-08 Thread Julian Leviston
But I wasn't asking you. :P :) On 08/05/2012, at 4:28 PM, David Barbour wrote: On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 11:13 PM, Julian Leviston jul...@leviston.net wrote: What's your point? I like my PLs to be point free, as much as possible. ;) Regards, Dave -- bringing s-words to a pen

Re: [fonc] The problem with programming languages

2012-05-08 Thread Julian Leviston
Naming poses no problem so long as you define things a bit. :P Humans parsing documents without proper definitions are like coders trying to read programming languages that have no comments (pretty much all the source code I ever read unfortunately) J On 08/05/2012, at 4:36 PM, David Barbour

Re: [fonc] The problem with programming languages

2012-05-08 Thread Julian Leviston
Sorry it wasn't obvious what I was saying there... They're important because when they're tiny, it's very easy to learn them... Julian On 08/05/2012, at 8:45 PM, Julian Leviston wrote: This is why tiny languages (Alan calls them POLs, I believe: problem-oriented-languages) are so important

Re: [fonc] The problem with programming languages

2012-05-08 Thread Julian Leviston
Isn't this simply a description of your thought clearing process? You think in English... not Ruby. I'd actually hazard a guess and say that really, you think in a semi-verbal semi-phyiscal pattern language, and not very well formed one, either. This is the case for most people. This is why

Re: [fonc] The problem with programming languages

2012-05-08 Thread Julian Leviston
said above regarding pseudocode: http://www.literateprogramming.com/ Cheers, Jarosław Rzeszótko 2012/5/8 David Goehrig d...@nexttolast.com On May 8, 2012, at 2:56 AM, Julian Leviston jul...@leviston.net wrote: Humans parsing documents without proper definitions are like coders

Re: [fonc] LightTable UI

2012-04-24 Thread Julian Leviston
of the time are favoured by few. I think we need good theoretical approaches to problems like this before we can make any progress in how the actual real tools work like. Cheers, Jarosław Rzeszótko 2012/4/24 Julian Leviston jul...@leviston.net Thought this is worth a look as a next step

[fonc] LightTable UI

2012-04-23 Thread Julian Leviston
Thought this is worth a look as a next step after Brett Victor's work (http://vimeo.com/36579366) on UI for programmers... http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ibdknox/light-table We're still not quite there yet IMHO, but that's getting towards the general direction... tie that in with a

[fonc] (Lisp) language implementation building

2012-04-17 Thread Julian Leviston
Hi Ian Alan, Further to your suggestion that I write a LISP interpreter, I'm about 90% of the way done. That is, I've built the following so far: - using Ruby - a Lexer into Ruby array structures for lists (Ruby Array array of arrays (etc.) at this point in the process), Symbol, String,

Re: [fonc] Kernel Maru

2012-04-10 Thread Julian Leviston
I started on this yesterday when I received your email Ian, and I just wanted to say thank you (and Alan, too) very much for responding. I'm still interested in what your thoughts on Kernel are (and Arc, too, actually) sometime if you have a couple of moments to pen them... Julian On

Re: [fonc] Block-Strings / Heredocs (Re: Magic Ink and Killing Math)

2012-03-13 Thread Julian Leviston
On 14/03/2012, at 2:11 AM, David Barbour wrote: On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 5:42 AM, Josh Grams j...@qualdan.com wrote: On 2012-03-13 02:13PM, Julian Leviston wrote: What is text? Do you store your text in ASCII, EBCDIC, SHIFT-JIS or UTF-8? If it's UTF-8, how do you use an ASCII editor

Re: [fonc] Block-Strings / Heredocs (Re: Magic Ink and Killing Math)

2012-03-12 Thread Julian Leviston
On 13/03/2012, at 1:21 PM, BGB wrote: although theoretically possible, I wouldn't really trust not having the ability to use conventional text editors whenever need-be (or mandate use of a particular editor). for most things I am using text-based formats, including for things like

Re: [fonc] Error trying to compile COLA

2012-03-01 Thread Julian Leviston
Is this one of the aims? Julian On 01/03/2012, at 11:42 PM, Reuben Thomas wrote: The biggest challenge for FONC will not be to achieve good technical results, as it is stuffed with people who have a history of doing great work, and its results to date are already exciting, but to get those

Re: [fonc] Error trying to compile COLA

2012-03-01 Thread Julian Leviston
to convince too many people who have so much history of the merits of tearing down the existing systems. Just a thought. Julian On 02/03/2012, at 2:04 AM, Reuben Thomas wrote: On 1 March 2012 15:02, Julian Leviston jul...@leviston.net wrote: Is this one of the aims? It doesn't seem to be, which

Re: [fonc] Sorting the WWW mess

2012-03-01 Thread Julian Leviston
Right you are. Centralised search seems a bit silly to me. Take object orientedism and apply it to search and you get a thing where each node searches itself when asked... apply this to a local-focussed topology (ie spider web serch out) and utilise intelligent caching (so search the localised

Re: [fonc] Error trying to compile COLA

2012-02-27 Thread Julian Leviston
Structural optimisation is not compression. Lurk more. Julian On 28/02/2012, at 3:38 PM, BGB wrote: granted, I remain a little skeptical. I think there is a bit of a difference though between, say, a log table, and a typical piece of software. a log table is, essentially, almost pure

Re: [fonc] Error trying to compile COLA

2012-02-26 Thread Julian Leviston
What does any of what you just said have to do with the original question about COLA? Julian On 26/02/2012, at 9:25 PM, BGB wrote: On 2/25/2012 7:48 PM, Julian Leviston wrote: As I understand it, Frank is an experiment that is an extended version of DBJr that sits atop lesserphic, which

Re: [fonc] Error trying to compile COLA

2012-02-26 Thread Julian Leviston
;) On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 3:48 AM, Julian Leviston jul...@leviston.net wrote: As I understand it, Frank is an experiment that is an extended version of DBJr that sits atop lesserphic, which sits atop gezira which sits atop nile, which sits atop maru all of which which utilise ometa

Re: [fonc] Error trying to compile COLA

2012-02-26 Thread Julian Leviston
Hi, Comments line... On 27/02/2012, at 5:33 PM, BGB wrote: I don't think it was a prank. It's not really hidden at all. If you pay attention, all the components of Frank are there... like I said. It's obviously missing certain things like Nothing, and other optimisations, but for the

Re: [fonc] Error trying to compile COLA

2012-02-25 Thread Julian Leviston
Isn't the cola basically irrelevant now? aren't they using maru instead? (or rather isn't maru the renamed version of coke?) Julian On 26/02/2012, at 2:52 AM, Martin Baldan wrote: Michael, Thanks for your reply. I'm looking into it. Best, Martin

Re: [fonc] Error trying to compile COLA

2012-02-25 Thread Julian Leviston
thing one can download and run right now. Could you guys please clear it up for me? Best, Martin On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 5:23 PM, Julian Leviston jul...@leviston.net wrote: Isn't the cola basically irrelevant now? aren't they using maru instead? (or rather isn't maru the renamed version

Re: [fonc] COLAs or CLOAs? : are lambda systems fundamentally simpler than object systems?

2012-02-12 Thread Julian Leviston
On 13/02/2012, at 6:01 AM, Kurt Stephens wrote: On 2/12/12 11:15 AM, Steve Wart wrote: Can the distributed computation model you describe be formalized as a set of rewrite rules, or is the black box model really about a protocol for message dispatch? Attempts to build distributed messaging

Re: [fonc] COLAs or CLOAs? : are lambda systems fundamentally simpler than object systems?

2012-02-12 Thread Julian Leviston
Hiya, On 13/02/2012, at 2:47 PM, Kurt Stephens wrote: Read Ian Piumarta's Open, extensible object models ( http://piumarta.com/software/cola/objmodel2.pdf ). At a certain level, send(), lookup() and apply() have bootstrap implementations to break the infinite regress. TORT was directly

Re: [fonc] One more year?!

2012-01-24 Thread Julian Leviston
/wiki/OpenMusic http://www2.siba.fi/pwgl/pwglsynth.html https://github.com/digego/extempore On Jan 22, 2012, at 9:29 PM, Julian Leviston wrote: On 23/01/2012, at 4:17 PM, BGB wrote: as opposed to either manually placing samples on a timeline (like in Audacity or similar), or the stream

Re: [fonc] One more year?!

2012-01-22 Thread Julian Leviston
On 23/01/2012, at 12:34 PM, BGB wrote: I was more giving it as an example of basically wanting to do one thing while being obligated (due to prior work) to do something very different. Yeah, sorry for diverging :) I actually realised that. say, if a musician (or scientist/programmer/...)

Re: [fonc] One more year?!

2012-01-22 Thread Julian Leviston
On 23/01/2012, at 2:30 PM, BGB wrote: little if anything in that area that generally makes me think dubstep though... (taken loosely enough, most gangsta-rap could be called dubstep if one turns the sub-woofer loud enough, but this is rather missing the point...). Listen to this song.

Re: [fonc] One more year?!

2012-01-22 Thread Julian Leviston
On 23/01/2012, at 4:17 PM, BGB wrote: as opposed to either manually placing samples on a timeline (like in Audacity or similar), or the stream of note-on/note-off pulses and delays used by MIDI, an alternate idea comes up: one has a number of delayed relative events, which are in-turn

Re: [fonc] Inspired 3D Worlds

2012-01-17 Thread Julian Leviston
I guess this depends what you mean by awe-inspiring. David this sentence somewhat disturbs me, though. I grew up in Tasmania - a little island at the bottom of Australia... with some of the most picturesque (and as you say here awe-inspiring) countryside in Australia. I can tell you for sure

Re: [fonc] Inspired 3D Worlds

2012-01-17 Thread Julian Leviston
No, I find it IS awe-inspiring all of the time. I may not necessarily be full of awe or actually be inspired at any particular one time... however, this doesn't change the fact that certain things or people themselves are awe-inspiring all of the time to me. In other words, if I'm in a bad

Re: [fonc] Inspired 3D Worlds

2012-01-17 Thread Julian Leviston
, Julian Leviston jul...@leviston.net wrote: No, I find it IS awe-inspiring all of the time. I may not necessarily be full of awe or actually be inspired at any particular one time... however, this doesn't change the fact that certain things or people themselves are awe-inspiring all

Re: [fonc] Inspired 3D Worlds

2012-01-16 Thread Julian Leviston
I like minecraft's take on this. Julian On 17/01/2012, at 2:31 PM, BGB wrote: On 1/16/2012 6:47 PM, Casey Ransberger wrote: Top post. Heightmapping can go a really long way. Probably not news though:) I am still not certain, since a lot of this has a lot more to do with my own

Re: [fonc] Inspired 3D Worlds

2012-01-16 Thread Julian Leviston
The original topic was about getting the computer to create 3d worlds. That was what I was referring to when I said I like minecraft's taken on it. They use a seed to generate the world. Julian On 17/01/2012, at 3:26 PM, BGB wrote: On 1/16/2012 8:36 PM, Julian Leviston wrote: I like

Re: [fonc] new document

2011-11-08 Thread Julian Leviston
, try to say something specific and relevant to those who might have skimmed it. Which parts interested you? If you're referring to Sean's comment for recording the outreach events, please consider moving it to another topic. On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 3:17 PM, Julian Leviston jul

Re: [fonc] Language of Languages @ SPLASH 2011

2011-10-17 Thread Julian Leviston
Clicking the link http://www.squeaksource.com/LoLs.html Yields this: Internal Server Error Error: This block accepts 0 arguments, but was called with 1. Comanche/6.2 (unix) Server at localhost Port On 18/10/2011, at 7:15 AM, Douglass, Jamie wrote: Thought you would be interested in

Re: [fonc] Google Dash and Harmony projects

2011-09-13 Thread Julian Leviston
Amusing, they seem to be saying that the platform is the problem. ;-) Now where have we heard that before? :-) God, Alan's only been saying it for the last ten years or something... Julian On 14/09/2011, at 2:40 AM, Stephen Pair wrote: My guess would be that Dart is the newer, official name

Re: [fonc] More information about the text layout engine for paragraphs in VPRI Tech Report

2011-08-31 Thread Julian Leviston
vpri.og is working for me. Are you talking about Gezira/Nile? http://www.vpri.org/vp_wiki/index.php/Gezira Julian On 01/09/2011, at 5:40 AM, nchen@mac.com wrote: Hi I briefly remember Alan and other members of VPRI doing a presentation of the text layout engine while they were here

Re: [fonc] OT: Quake-derived engines...

2011-08-24 Thread Julian Leviston
understanding and not just a surface level attention. J On 24/08/2011, at 3:37 PM, BGB cr88...@gmail.com wrote: On 8/23/2011 9:54 PM, Julian Leviston wrote: I usually just leave off commenting, but I personally don't think this is appropriate for this list. fair enough, mostly just trying

Re: [fonc] Messages

2011-08-20 Thread Julian Leviston
On 21/08/2011, at 12:22 AM, John McKeon wrote: On Saturday, August 20, 2011, Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com wrote: (For example) Try to imagine a system where the parts only receive messages but never explicitly send them. This is one example of what I meant when I requested that

Re: Growth, Popularity and Languages - was Re: [fonc] Alan Kay talk at HPI in Potsdam

2011-07-26 Thread Julian Leviston
On 26/07/2011, at 3:47 PM, Alan Kay wrote: But the dilemma is: what happens if this is the route and the children and adults reject it for the much more alluring human universals? Even if almost none of them lead to a stable, thriving, growth inducing and prosperous civilization? These

Re: [fonc] growing a language in pattern calculus

2011-07-26 Thread Julian Leviston
Hey UTS! That's just up the road from me :) Haha woo :) J On 21/07/2011, at 7:34 PM, Barry Jay wrote: Hi everyone, the paper Growing a language in pattern calculus is now available from http://www-staff.it.uts.edu.au/~cbj/Publications/glpmf.pdf The material of the paper links to

Re: [fonc] Alan Kay talk at HPI in Potsdam

2011-07-25 Thread Julian Leviston
On 26/07/2011, at 12:03 AM, Igor Stasenko wrote: In contrast, as you mentioned, TCP/IP protocol which is backbone of today's internet having much better design. But i think this is a general problem of software evolution. No matter how hard you try, you cannot foresee all kinds of

Growth, Popularity and Languages - was Re: [fonc] Alan Kay talk at HPI in Potsdam

2011-07-25 Thread Julian Leviston
On 26/07/2011, at 1:33 AM, Igor Stasenko wrote: On 25 July 2011 16:16, Julian Leviston jul...@leviston.net wrote: On 26/07/2011, at 12:03 AM, Igor Stasenko wrote: Interestingly that many today's trendy and popular things (which we know today as web) were invented as a temporary solution

Intention Implementation - was Re: [fonc] Alan Kay talk at HPI in Potsdam

2011-07-25 Thread Julian Leviston
On 26/07/2011, at 1:43 AM, Igor Stasenko wrote: (quotes are broken) On 25 July 2011 16:26, Julian Leviston jul...@leviston.net wrote: On 26/07/2011, at 12:03 AM, Igor Stasenko wrote: In contrast, as you mentioned, TCP/IP protocol which is backbone of today's internet having much

Re: Growth, Popularity and Languages - was Re: [fonc] Alan Kay talk at HPI in Potsdam

2011-07-25 Thread Julian Leviston
On 26/07/2011, at 12:20 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote: You lost me here. My attitude to Ruby is same as to Perl: lets take bit from here, bit from there, mix well everything and voila! , we having new programming language. It may be good for cooking recipe, but definitely not very good for

Re: Growth, Popularity and Languages - was Re: [fonc] Alan Kay talk at HPI in Potsdam

2011-07-25 Thread Julian Leviston
On 26/07/2011, at 12:20 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote: But for programming its a bit different: you giving to people a tool which they will use to craft their own products. And depending on how good/bad this tool are, the end product's quality will vary. And also, it would be too good to be

Re: Growth, Popularity and Languages - was Re: [fonc] Alan Kay talk at HPI in Potsdam

2011-07-25 Thread Julian Leviston
On 26/07/2011, at 12:20 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote: Say, for example, like making a telephone that is vastly more easy to use than all other telephones on the planet. Now, for tech geeks, it's not really *that* much easier to use... For example, when the iPhone came out, I got one, and the

Re: [fonc] Richard Gabriel Guy Steele, 50 in 50 talk

2011-06-24 Thread Julian Leviston
On 24/06/2011, at 11:42 PM, Bert Freudenberg wrote: They gave that presentation more than once (I saw it a OOPSLA). Awesome :) Here's a version from JAOO'08, streams fine in Germany: http://blog.jaoo.dk/2008/11/21/art-and-code-obscure-or-beautiful-code/ - Bert - I actually

Re: Age and Language (was Re: [fonc] Alternative Web programming models?)

2011-06-22 Thread Julian Leviston
On 23/06/2011, at 10:08 AM, Steve Wart wrote: So how can you make simple languages simple to use? Developers have been rejecting complex GUIs in favour of plain text. If Google and Apple are right, every program component isn't a file on a disk, but rather some network accessible resource.

Re: Age and Language (was Re: [fonc] Alternative Web programming models?)

2011-06-22 Thread Julian Leviston
On 23/06/2011, at 12:35 PM, Max OrHai wrote: People who want a small language should be prepared to be somewhat idiosyncratic, if they want to express big or complex programs. I mean 'language' here not just in terms of a programming language definition but rather to mean all constructs

Re: Age and Language (was Re: [fonc] Alternative Web programming models?)

2011-06-20 Thread Julian Leviston
On 20/06/2011, at 4:33 PM, BGB wrote: interestingly, I don't believe in getting rid of the file-system, per-se, as technically it works fairly well and is a proven piece of technology. Interestingly, I disagree entirely. Finding things is a pain for most people (including myself). Julian.

Re: Age and Language (was Re: [fonc] Alternative Web programming models?)

2011-06-20 Thread Julian Leviston
On 20/06/2011, at 4:33 PM, BGB wrote: For example, when web programming on a specific web app, I use a web browser, a text editor, a database management program, a command line, and a couple other tools. It'd be nice to be able to fit these tools together into a pseudo-app and then build

Re: Age and Language (was Re: [fonc] Alternative Web programming models?)

2011-06-20 Thread Julian Leviston
On 20/06/2011, at 8:06 PM, BGB wrote: hmm... S-Expression database?... sort of like a hybrid between a database and a persistent store. or such... I'd like to know if you think there's a difference between a filesystem and a database... conceptually... or such...

Re: Age and Language (was Re: [fonc] Alternative Web programming models?)

2011-06-20 Thread Julian Leviston
Hi... (see below)... On 21/06/2011, at 3:42 AM, BGB wrote: On 6/20/2011 3:22 AM, Julian Leviston wrote: On 20/06/2011, at 8:06 PM, BGB wrote: hmm... S-Expression database?... sort of like a hybrid between a database and a persistent store. or such... I'd like to know if you think

Re: Age and Language (was Re: [fonc] Alternative Web programming models?)

2011-06-19 Thread Julian Leviston
On 20/06/2011, at 12:20 PM, Steve Dekorte wrote: From this perspective we could see the history of programming as one of finding ever more natural mappings between how our minds work and how we can get machines to do what we want - just as steering wheel and floor pedals map between our

Re: Age and Language (was Re: [fonc] Alternative Web programming models?)

2011-06-19 Thread Julian Leviston
On 20/06/2011, at 2:33 PM, BGB wrote: in a sense, the metaphor no longer works, and should likely itself be left to fall into the recycle-bin of history. worse yet is having to read stuff written by people who actually take this metaphor seriously. Given the historical perspective, it was

Re: [fonc] Alternative Web programming models?

2011-06-14 Thread Julian Leviston
On 15/06/2011, at 1:14 AM, Tristan Slominski wrote: Just for completeness, the lenses you describe here remind me of OMeta's foreign rule invocation: Yeah, I think there is a fair amount of deep digestion required to fully grok these ideas, personally. Haha that sounds disturbing. :)

Re: Age and Language (was Re: [fonc] Alternative Web programming models?)

2011-06-14 Thread Julian Leviston
On 15/06/2011, at 9:00 AM, Kevin Driedger wrote: I wonder if a thousand years ago the readers of the world thought that only certain people had an aptitude for reading. = As a professional coder and father of young children I find Dethe's anecdote of teaching his children to

Re: [fonc] Alternative Web programming models?

2011-06-13 Thread Julian Leviston
On 12/06/2011, at 1:00 PM, BGB wrote: image-based systems have their own sets of drawbacks though... dynamic reload could be a good enough compromise IMO, if done well... I don't follow this train of thought. Everything runs in an image. That's to say, the source code directly relates to

Re: [fonc] Alternative Web programming models?

2011-06-13 Thread Julian Leviston
On 13/06/2011, at 7:50 PM, BGB wrote: On 6/13/2011 1:33 AM, Julian Leviston wrote: On 12/06/2011, at 1:00 PM, BGB wrote: image-based systems have their own sets of drawbacks though... dynamic reload could be a good enough compromise IMO, if done well... I don't follow this train

Re: [fonc] Alternative Web programming models?

2011-06-13 Thread Julian Leviston
On 14/06/2011, at 1:17 AM, Alan Kay wrote: It would be great if everyone on this list would think deeply about how to have an eternal system, and only be amplified by it. Hi Alan, You might need to elucidate a little more on this for me to personally understand you. Not sure how others

Re: [fonc] Alternative Web programming models?

2011-06-13 Thread Julian Leviston
On 14/06/2011, at 4:07 AM, Josh Gargus wrote: On Jun 13, 2011, at 9:35 AM, Julian Leviston wrote: On 14/06/2011, at 1:17 AM, Alan Kay wrote: It would be great if everyone on this list would think deeply about how to have an eternal system, and only be amplified by it. Hi Alan

Re: [fonc] Alternative Web programming models?

2011-06-13 Thread Julian Leviston
I wrote this without reading the very latest http://www.vpri.org/pdf/tr2011001_final_worlds.pdf so if I say anything that is obviously missing that understanding, please bear with me :) I'll read it shortly. Julian. On 14/06/2011, at 5:26 AM, Julian Leviston wrote: On 14/06/2011, at 4:07

Re: [fonc] Alternative Web programming models?

2011-06-13 Thread Julian Leviston
On 14/06/2011, at 6:02 AM, BGB wrote: but, what would be the gain?... the major issue with most possible graphical representations, is that they are far less compact. hence, the common use of graphical presentations to represent a small amount in information in a compelling way (say, a

Re: Age and Language (was Re: [fonc] Alternative Web programming models?)

2011-06-13 Thread Julian Leviston
On 14/06/2011, at 7:33 AM, Casey Ransberger wrote: Kids may not have the linguistic development out of the way that one needs to do serious programming. Adults who don't already code may find themselves short on some of the core concepts that conventional programming languages expect of

Re: [fonc] Alternative Web programming models?

2011-06-13 Thread Julian Leviston
On 14/06/2011, at 7:16 AM, C. Scott Ananian wrote: Consider what it'd be like if we didn't represent code as text... and represented it maybe as series of ideograms or icons (TileScript nod). Syntax errors don't really crop up any more, do they? Given a slightly nicer User Interface than

Re: [fonc] Alternative Web programming models?

2011-06-13 Thread Julian Leviston
On 14/06/2011, at 1:50 PM, C. Scott Ananian wrote: When you're about to type the next tile, you're given options... anything outside of those options is impossible, so the computer doesn't put it in, because syntactically it wouldn't make sense. There's nothing specific to tiles in what

Re: [fonc] Issues with understanding obj.c

2011-06-09 Thread Julian Leviston
See below... On 09/06/2011, at 2:59 PM, Josh Gargus wrote: I really don't understand what this means: typedef struct object *(*method_t)(struct object *receiver, ...); method_t is a pointer to a function that returns an object pointer and takes receiver and additional argument Thanks

Re: [fonc] Issues with understanding obj.c

2011-06-09 Thread Julian Leviston
Answering my own question... On 09/06/2011, at 4:27 PM, Julian Leviston wrote: See below... On 09/06/2011, at 2:59 PM, Josh Gargus wrote: I really don't understand what this means: typedef struct object *(*method_t)(struct object *receiver, ...); method_t is a pointer to a function

Re: [fonc] Alternative Web programming models?

2011-06-09 Thread Julian Leviston
On 09/06/2011, at 5:56 PM, Josh Gargus wrote: However, can we do better than that? I guess the answer depends on which aspect of the status quo we're trying to improve on (searchability, mashups, etc). For search, there must be plenty of technologies that can improve on HTML by

Re: [fonc] Alternative Web programming models?

2011-06-09 Thread Julian Leviston
On 09/06/2011, at 7:04 PM, BGB wrote: actually, possibly a relevant question here, would be why Java applets largely fell on their face, but Flash largely took off (in all its uses from YouTube to Punch The Monkey...). My own opinion of this is the same reason that the iPad feels faster

[fonc] Issues with understanding obj.c

2011-06-08 Thread Julian Leviston
Hi, I've been attempting to assimilate the corresponding code to Ian Piumerta's object model at http://piumarta.com/software/cola/objmodel2.pdf My C knowledge is lacking, because I don't understand some of the basics in it. I thought maybe some of you might be kind enough to elucidate. I

Re: [fonc] Issues with understanding obj.c

2011-06-08 Thread Julian Leviston
Tanks everyone for answering on this so much... Comment/Question below, On 09/06/2011, at 4:56 AM, Kevin Jones wrote: I really don't understand what this means: typedef struct object *(*method_t)(struct object *receiver, ...); method_t is a pointer to a function that returns an object

Re: [fonc] Alternative Web programming models?

2011-06-04 Thread Julian Leviston
On 04/06/2011, at 6:59 AM, Michael Forster wrote: On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 3:35 PM, C. Scott Ananian csc...@laptop.org wrote: [...] I'm assuming you didn't mean to be insulting. Yes, unstructured database is a bit of an oxymoron, and I intentionally used the words in this clever way, which

Re: [fonc] Beats

2011-05-17 Thread Julian Leviston
On 18/05/2011, at 8:06 AM, Casey Ransberger wrote: Here's something ironic: we've instead focused on ways to *correct* human error in music. Pitch correction for your vocals, but don't use too much, or you'll sound like a fax machine (unless that's what you're going for, in which case you

Re: [fonc] Question about OMeta

2011-04-10 Thread Julian Leviston
You should probably have a look at ActiveRecord::Migration which is part of Rails if you're interested in SQL-based systems, and in fact ActiveRecord in general is a really wonderful abstraction system - and a very good mix of do what you *can* in a programming-language based DSL, and what you

Re: [fonc] visual environments created by present/former VPRI staff

2011-04-08 Thread Julian Leviston
I quite like what Apple's Numbers does with spreadsheets... something as simple as naming sheets and having multiple variable-sized sheets on the one page (they call them tables) means you can address cells by name and things become kinda like variables... That one simple thing makes them so

[fonc] Question about OMeta

2011-04-08 Thread Julian Leviston
I have a question about OMeta. Could it be used in any way to efficiently translate programs between languages? I've been thinking about this for a number of months now... and it strikes me that it should be possible...? Julian. ___ fonc mailing list

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