Re: [fpc-other] [fpc-pascal] Google Code closing down
On 16/03/2015 14:18, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote: Hello Martin, On 2015-03-16 13:17, Martin Frb wrote: Local commits (commit, without push) can be a huge advantage. Ah yes, but they loved the idea shortly afterwards. As I said they *can* be a huge advantage. svn up is roughly equal to: stash, fetch and rebase (pull?), stash pop. A simple git alias can do that for you all in one command. ;-) And in a GUI? The only GUI on windows that was to my taste, is Tortoise. But if there is another GUI, that can do that? On win, ideally with explorer integration and not custom drawn (its on windows, its hould look (aprox) like a win app) True it is not the fault of GIT, if there is on frontend that suits me But it does not help This is, if I want to update, and just be left with any merge conflicts in by local changes. And that is why I trained them from the start to develop in local feature branches, and never directly in 'master' or 'develop' (any tracking branches). Follow that and you will never get a conflict on a 'git pull' again. In fact you don't need 'git pull' then, only 'git fetch' will suffice. Then when you have the time, you can review the latest changes from upstream (origin) and merge those into your local feature branch - when it suits you. And while all this has many advantage, it is not the point. Yes you can avoid (or defer) the merge conflicts. Which is again a good feature. Unless of course you are not interested in deferring them. ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] [fpc-pascal] Google Code closing down
On 16.3.2015 г. 14:24, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote: I can also add that SubVersion has *no* concept of Tags. To SubVersion there is no difference between a Tag and a Branch. Why do I say that? Simply because you can create a Tag in the repository, and then start adding commits to it just mind boggling! :) Why did they even bother. You can add a pre-commit hook that disallows changes to the tags directory: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/464384/svn-pre-commit-hook-for-avoiding-changes-to-tags-subdirectories Nikolay ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] [fpc-pascal] Google Code closing down
Hello Martin,
On 2015-03-16 13:17, Martin Frb wrote:
Local commits (commit, without push) can be a huge advantage.
Ah yes, but they loved the idea shortly afterwards. Then weeks later
when I mentioned the rebase command to neaten up local commits before
you make it public - that was another hour of explanation and examples
on a whiteboard. :-) Strangely they found out by themselves (to my
surprise) about the 'rebase --onto' command and now use that a lot.
svn up is roughly equal to: stash, fetch and rebase (pull?), stash pop.
A simple git alias can do that for you all in one command. ;-) I've
attached some of my most used alias commands. You might find some of
them useful. Simply copy them into your $HOME/.gitconfig file.
pull = fetch + rebase
The newer git is pretty clever and the command tips seen in the CLI
output is often very useful. I believe it can do a stash and pop
automatically for you. I also know the 'git svn fetch' automatically
does a rebase of your local commits not yet in SubVersion.
This is, if I want to update, and just be left with any merge conflicts
in by local changes.
And that is why I trained them from the start to develop in local
feature branches, and never directly in 'master' or 'develop' (any
tracking branches). Follow that and you will never get a conflict on a
'git pull' again. In fact you don't need 'git pull' then, only 'git
fetch' will suffice. Then when you have the time, you can review the
latest changes from upstream (origin) and merge those into your local
feature branch - when it suits you.
Regards,
Graeme
[alias]
# to list these alias via 'git alias'
alias = config --get-regexp ^alias\\.
one = show -s --pretty='format:%h (%s)'
l = log --pretty='format:%h %ad %s' --date=short
lg = log --graph --decorate --pretty=oneline --abbrev-commit
lga = log --graph --decorate --pretty=oneline --abbrev-commit --all
ilog = log --date=iso
llog = log --date=local
subj = show -s --pretty='format:Changes in %h (%s)'
who = !sh -c 'git log -1 --pretty=\format:%an %ae\ --author=\$1\' -
whatis = !f() { git show -s --pretty='format:%h (%s, %ai' \$@\ | sed -e
's/ [012][0-9]:[0-5][0-9]:[0-5][0-9] [-+][0-9][0-9][0-9][0-9]$/)\\n/'; }; f
#svnrev = log --pretty=format:%b -n 1 HEAD~1 | egrep '^git-svn-id:' | sed
's:.*/\([^/]*\)@\([0-9]*\) [0-9a-f].*:r\2:'
svnlog = log --stat=70 --pretty=medium --name-status
# param1 is to address. param2 is patch file created with 'format-patch -1
sha1'
email = !sh -c 'git send-email --to=$1 --smtp-server=192.168.0.17
--suppress-cc=all --annotate $2' -
svnrevlog = !sh -c 'git log --grep=@$1 --pretty='format:%H' upstream' -
svnrevlog1 = !sh -c 'git log --grep=@$1 --pretty='format:%H' master' -
svnrevlog2 = !sh -c 'git rev-list --grep=\@$1\ upstream' -
svncpick = 'git cherry-pick | git svnlog $1'
st = status -uno
apply-patch = 'git apply --ignore-whitespace $1'
# list branches sorted by last modified
changelog = 'git log master..develop | git shortlog'
st = status -uno
a = add
ap = add -p
c = commit --verbose
ca = commit -a --verbose
cm = commit -m
cam = commit -a -m
m = commit --amend --verbose
u = reset --hard
d = diff
ds = diff --stat
dc = diff --cached
s = status -s
co = checkout
cob = checkout -b
# list branches sorted by last modified
b = !git for-each-ref --sort='-authordate'
--format='%(authordate)%09%(objectname:short)%09%(refname)' refs/heads | sed -e
's-refs/heads/--'
# Create deployment package using 7zip instead, but still a ZIP archive
deploy = !sh -c 'git diff --name-only --diff-filter=ACMRT -z $1 | xargs
-0 7z.exe a -tzip deploy_$0.zip'
___
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Re: [fpc-other] [fpc-pascal] Google Code closing down
On 03/16/2015 11:34 AM, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote: But again, use whatever fits you best. I did deep evaluations of many systems, then made my choice. So far, I'm very happy with my choice and outcome. Yes, we *know*. You have made us well aware of this fact. :) Nikolay ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] [fpc-pascal] Google Code closing down
Hello Martin, On 2015-03-16 12:35, Martin Frb wrote: better product, simply means: Compared to others it scores better on more use cases. Agreed. :-) Different people learn in different ways. There will be a fair share of people for whom taking their first steps into using a repository is better done with a simpler system. I fully understand that. I think the biggest resistance to migrating to git is the distributed system principle. That scares people. That is why I introduced the developers, at my previous employment, to git by simplifying things. I let them use a client/server workflow model. That seem to have helped them a lot, and get over that fear they had. Regards, Graeme ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] [fpc-pascal] Google Code closing down
Graeme Geldenhuys wrote: If you want facts, then do a Google search. See the exponential growth of projects migrating from SubVersion (or other systems) to Git. Qt, KDE, Linux Kernel etc - they are massive projects and must have had very good reason to move to Git. The Linux developers moved because they were thrown off Bitkeeper after being accused of reverse-engineering it. I'm aware of the fact that there's something about managing directories (or possibly branches/tags) in Subversion that's considered broken, and I believe that when Torvalds hurriedly designed Git he took pains to fix that particular flaw. If one of the FPC maintainers can remember the details perhaps they'd explain them, after all /somebody/ has to give Graeme something concrete on which to build his argument :-) -- Mark Morgan Lloyd markMLl .AT. telemetry.co .DOT. uk [Opinions above are the author's, not those of his employers or colleagues] ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] [fpc-pascal] Google Code closing down
On 16 March 2015 at 11:50, Mark Morgan Lloyd markmll.fpc-ot...@telemetry.co.uk wrote: Graeme Geldenhuys wrote: If you want facts, then do a Google search. See the exponential growth of projects migrating from SubVersion (or other systems) to Git. Qt, KDE, Linux Kernel etc - they are massive projects and must have had very good reason to move to Git. I think Graeme's statement should be 99% of developers who have good working experience with BOTH consider Git to be better, but there have there been any good surveys supporting that conclusion? -- Frank Church === http://devblog.brahmancreations.com ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] [fpc-pascal] Google Code closing down
Hello Frank, On 2015-03-16 12:08, vfclists . wrote: have there been any good surveys supporting that conclusion? Yes, mine. :-P G. ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] [fpc-pascal] Google Code closing down
In our previous episode, Graeme Geldenhuys said: A better metric might be finding somebody who offers a selection of VCS protocols (possibly with a common backend- I believe such things exist?) and then looking at the relative use for checkouts etc. You can start by looking at the following Wikipedia page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_source_code_software_hosting_facilities See the Popularity section. GitHub sits and 19.8mil projects. If you look on the github referenced page, its repositories, not projects. The translation to projects is wikipedias own. The fact that github+gitlab projects people and by others the other way around should ring a bell. I get the feeling these stats are meaningless because github has a large excess of personal repositories that skews stats, while sf was more collaboration oriented. ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] [fpc-pascal] Google Code closing down
Hello Mark, On 2015-03-16 11:50, Mark Morgan Lloyd wrote: details perhaps they'd explain them, after all /somebody/ has to give Graeme something concrete on which to build his argument :-) hehehe... Just watch Linus's Google Tech Talk on YouTube. ;-) I can also add that SubVersion has *no* concept of Tags. To SubVersion there is no difference between a Tag and a Branch. Why do I say that? Simply because you can create a Tag in the repository, and then start adding commits to it just mind boggling! :) Why did they even bother. Regards, Graeme ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] [fpc-pascal] Google Code closing down
On 16/03/2015 09:23, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote: As the majority of developers would tell you, Git is simply the better product at this stage. That I can live with. There is a 2nd potential point of confusion to it. better product, simply means: Compared to others it scores better on more use cases. It does no mean (at least not to me), that it is better for *all* (or very high percentage [1]) use cases. I did myself mix that up in my previous reply. [1] This in not to say, it could not be a high percentage, it just says that the phrase does not necessarily mean this. For example (assuming you use a provider, and do not have to set up the server). The learning curve for an absolute newly is higher for GIT than far SVN. Different people learn in different ways. There will be a fair share of people for whom taking their first steps into using a repository is better done with a simpler system. (Just for the learning, but it still is a valid use case) ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] [fpc-pascal] Google Code closing down
Hello Martin, On 2015-03-16 14:35, Martin Frb wrote: A simple git alias can do that for you all in one command. ;-) And in a GUI? The only GUI on windows that was to my taste, is Tortoise. And exactly why I don't bother with 3rd party GUI frontends. They *all* lack git features. I found SmartGit (Java based but uses SWT toolkit so looks native everywhere) tolerable for basic commits and reviewing the commit log. But as soon as you get to things like cherry-picking, rebase, rebase --onto, commit only specific changed lines of code from a file, SVN repo integration etc... Then those GUI's just stumble or are more complex and confusing than the command line. [my personal opinion obviously] Regards, Graeme ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] [fpc-pascal] Google Code closing down
Hello Florian, On 2015-03-16 19:51, Florian Klämpfl wrote: But why do you use Pascal then? Sadly, I'm slowly moving to Java. Go where the work is. Regards, Graeme ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] [fpc-pascal] Google Code closing down
Graeme Geldenhuys wrote: Hello Mark, On 2015-03-16 11:50, Mark Morgan Lloyd wrote: details perhaps they'd explain them, after all /somebody/ has to give Graeme something concrete on which to build his argument :-) hehehe... Just watch Linus's Google Tech Talk on YouTube. ;-) I can also add that SubVersion has *no* concept of Tags. To SubVersion there is no difference between a Tag and a Branch. Why do I say that? Simply because you can create a Tag in the repository, and then start adding commits to it just mind boggling! :) Why did they even bother. I agree. In any reasonable vocabulary, a tag would represent a particular revision number relative to a branch. -- Mark Morgan Lloyd markMLl .AT. telemetry.co .DOT. uk [Opinions above are the author's, not those of his employers or colleagues] ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] [fpc-pascal] Google Code closing down
Am 16.03.2015 um 13:53 schrieb Graeme Geldenhuys: Hello Martin, On 2015-03-16 12:35, Martin Frb wrote: better product, simply means: Compared to others it scores better on more use cases. Agreed. :-) Different people learn in different ways. There will be a fair share of people for whom taking their first steps into using a repository is better done with a simpler system. I fully understand that. I think the biggest resistance to migrating to git is the distributed system principle. For me 1) it is usability, mainly the gui, well, and other stuff like the un-memorizable hashes. 2) too much freedom :) svn forces me basically to finish patches: if I started to modify something, it is the easiest to finish it than to store it somehow away. git doesn't, just commit when being disturbed, add an unfinished in front of the commit message and I can/will continue with something else when I come back. For an idle time project like FPC this is really a problem for me: my git-svn copy contains currently around 60 unfinsished branches :( And of course in case of FPC the huge effort to switch the whole infrastructure. That scares people. That is why I introduced the developers, at my previous employment, to git by simplifying things. I let them use a client/server workflow model. That seem to have helped them a lot, and get over that fear they had. ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] [fpc-pascal] Google Code closing down
Am 16.03.2015 um 10:23 schrieb Graeme Geldenhuys: As the majority of developers would tell you, Git is simply the better product at this stage. If you want facts, then do a Google search. See the exponential growth of projects migrating from SubVersion (or other systems) to Git. Qt, KDE, Linux Kernel etc - they are massive projects and must have had very good reason to move to Git. But why do you use Pascal then? All these projects use C/C++, probably also for a good reason. ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] [fpc-pascal] Google Code closing down
Hello Martin, On 2015-03-15 20:32, Martin Frb wrote: But that does not change, that there are developers who store their projects in GIT, but who do not use the features at all. For such a developer it can be said, that even CVS has more feature, than the set of features they use in GIT. This is one case, where GIT was clearly not the best choice. (Assuming they had choice) There is no rule that says you must use all feature of Git, otherwise it is waisted or not the best choice. Like I tell everybody else. To get started with Git you need to know about 4-6 commands (just like svn) and that will allow you to do most day-to-day development work with it. Perfect, and nothing wrong with that. You now have a reliable and stable source code management system will a full backup of all your project changes. What workflow you use is irrelevant. Then as time goes by and your confidence with Git grows, then start experimenting with other commands and features. Learn and use git at your own place. What I like about it is that it is extremely quick to get a repo started (unlike say SubVersion, Team Coherence, Perforce, SourceSafe etc). No service/daemon required, no remote server needed. Just a directory where you can run 'git init' and you are set to go. Regards, Graeme ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] [fpc-pascal] Google Code closing down
Hello Martin, On 2015-03-15 20:49, Martin Frb wrote: I did judge your statement on it, that /As 99% of developers would tell you, Git is simply// the better product./ My apologies if there has been some confusion. Probably down to a language barrier issue. In the context the usage of 99% wasn't meant a specific number. It's like saying there are a 101 ways to skin a cat. You are not specifically saying there is only a 101 ways (not 100, not 102). You also don't actually want to remove the skin off a cat. :) [what a terrible saying - I love cats] It is a generalised statement meaning a lot or the majority agree there are many ways to accomplish something. So to rephrase my quoted statement I could have said As the majority of developers would tell you, Git is simply the better product at this stage. If you want facts, then do a Google search. See the exponential growth of projects migrating from SubVersion (or other systems) to Git. Qt, KDE, Linux Kernel etc - they are massive projects and must have had very good reason to move to Git. Also observe the amount of new code storage services popping up - most based around Git repositories. I personally have not observed recent code repository services appearing on the internet boasting (or even supporting) SubVersion. Surely that has to mean something. Obviously you as a developer or company have to make your own choice - evaluate the pros and cons of each code management system. How difficult it would be to migrate and see what solution would benefit you in the short and long term. Regards, Graeme ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] [fpc-pascal] Google Code closing down
In our previous episode, vfclists . said: Now Florian, considering your preference for GUI tools, won't the development of cross platform Git GUI surpassing Tortoise Git, Github and Atlassian's tools, SmartGit and whatever be the best advert for Lazarus and FPC? There would such a major flow of patches coming in that you would have to stop coding actively and review the patches going in like Linus does. Yeah, and I have interesting property on the moon to sell. I've a feeling you are the perfect guy for it :-) Arguments on change your infrastructure like this and the hordes will come are considered with very big scepticism. Call it Voort's law if you will. Since somehow those hordes never materialize. ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] [fpc-pascal] Google Code closing down
Hello Florian, On 2015-03-15 14:40, Florian Klämpfl wrote: with git-svn 'git svn' is super useful - I use it often. It is merely a stop-gap though. It limits a git repo (features) a lot. But like I said, it is still useful. Regards, Graeme ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] [fpc-pascal] Google Code closing down
Am 15.03.2015 um 15:40 schrieb Florian Klämpfl: Am 15.03.2015 um 15:11 schrieb vfclists .: Somehow all this indifference to Git bothers me because it seems they are ignoring the greater realities of life. If a new generation are going to get involved with FPC and Lazarus development, and the main developers are really concerned with all the time and effort they put into this great product not going to waste when they retire then they ought to reconsider the indifference or aversion to Git. Luckily enough, this is an automatism. As soon as somebody pops up and does e.g. repository maintainance, fixes branch merging etc. and volounteers to work on switching the whole FPC infrastructure to git, this will happen. Since this is a lot of really tedious work, it will be probably take another couple of decades especially as anybody really used to git can use it already flawlessly with git-svn. Ever wondered how Jonas can commit hundreds of changesets within a few minutes ;)? ... not to mention that I am using also git-svn sometimes as a patch manager for FPC development (drawback: around 60 private branches with some nice stuff, wouldn't happen with svn ;)). Nevertheless I see no point in using git as FPC's main repository so far. ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] [fpc-pascal] Google Code closing down
On 15 March 2015 at 13:21, Florian Klämpfl flor...@freepascal.org wrote: Am 15.03.2015 um 13:06 schrieb Paul Breneman: On 03/15/2015 05:44 AM, Florian Klämpfl wrote: Am 15.03.2015 um 11:10 schrieb Graeme Geldenhuys: NOBODY I know has ever considered going back to SubVersion after using Git. Good to know that upper case NOBODY includes me :) Here is a simple introduction to git (as well as Linux, Python, Vim): I know git and I can use it but I cannot get used to it. Besides a lot of other things which annoy me, it still misses good gui tools for me, especially on non-windows. TortoiseGit on Windows is ok, but something like CommitMonitor which I use for fast code reviewing is afaik not avaiblable for git. And yes, I am a gui guy and I refuse to type lengthy command line message which I've always to look up in some self made cheat sheet or in the man pages. http://levinux.com Bad for them that I am not enabling JavaScript (or whatever) for some random site :) ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other I think the main FPC developers need to realize that sooner or later they are allow going to retire from FPC development and move onto other things, or just retire form working life, or finally to the great happy retirement home in the sky, and a new generation will have to take over FPC development. They have to plan and workout a succession, and that succession will have to involve a new generation of programmers who learned different ways of working, and that more or less involves Git and a whole lot of other tools. Somehow all this indifference to Git bothers me because it seems they are ignoring the greater realities of life. If a new generation are going to get involved with FPC and Lazarus development, and the main developers are really concerned with all the time and effort they put into this great product not going to waste when they retire then they ought to reconsider the indifference or aversion to Git. This is what the aversion or indifference to Git signifies me. It doesn't mean that I don't think they don't have any plans for how the project will be continued in the long term future, but there seems to an indifference in the appeal the working culture has for newer generation. They need foster a passion and a commitment (fanboy fanaticism may be the right word) to Lazarus and FPC in a new generation. If you think I am such a Git fanboy I am not. For personal projects I am beginning to find Git rather cumbersone as it doesn't have project management, ticketing, patch reviewal and a host of other stuff built in. I am beginning to consider Fossil, yes, the same Fossil that is being mocked in this thread as an alternative because it comes with batteries included. Now Florian, considering your preference for GUI tools, won't the development of cross platform Git GUI surpassing Tortoise Git, Github and Atlassian's tools, SmartGit and whatever be the best advert for Lazarus and FPC? There would such a major flow of patches coming in that you would have to stop coding actively and review the patches going in like Linus does. You could have your cake and eat it too. :). I think such a tool with documentation on how it was built would be the best advert for Lazarus and FreePascal. Graeme? -- Frank Church === http://devblog.brahmancreations.com ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] [fpc-pascal] Google Code closing down
Am 15.03.2015 um 15:11 schrieb vfclists .: Somehow all this indifference to Git bothers me because it seems they are ignoring the greater realities of life. If a new generation are going to get involved with FPC and Lazarus development, and the main developers are really concerned with all the time and effort they put into this great product not going to waste when they retire then they ought to reconsider the indifference or aversion to Git. Luckily enough, this is an automatism. As soon as somebody pops up and does e.g. repository maintainance, fixes branch merging etc. and volounteers to work on switching the whole FPC infrastructure to git, this will happen. Since this is a lot of really tedious work, it will be probably take another couple of decades especially as anybody really used to git can use it already flawlessly with git-svn. Ever wondered how Jonas can commit hundreds of changesets within a few minutes ;)? Now Florian, considering your preference for GUI tools, won't the development of cross platform Git GUI surpassing Tortoise Git, Github and Atlassian's tools, SmartGit and whatever be the best advert for Lazarus and FPC? In a world with unlimited resources and time? Maybe. There would such a major flow of patches coming in that you would have to stop coding actively and review the patches going in like Linus does. For sure not my aim, actually, if I had only to review patches, I would quit to work on FPC or whatever. ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] [fpc-pascal] Google Code closing down
Hi, On 2015-03-15 14:11, vfclists . wrote: I think such a tool with documentation on how it was built would be the best advert for Lazarus and FreePascal. Graeme? I've tried ever GUI tool under the sun for Git. They all have there faults. In most cases they often get confused about the actual state of the repo, are slow as hell, or simply lag behind the actual Git cli tool. Also having to learn different GUI tools on each platform I use is damn annoying too. So with all the above taken into account, that is why I prefer to do all my git work from the command line. I must confess I use 'git gui' and 'gitk' very often too. Ignore the fact that those Tcl/Tk apps will not win any beauty contest, but they sure as hell are very efficient, functional and consistent across all platforms that Git supports. In fact they have many hidden command line parameters too, which change their functionality, making them more useful. Other GUI front-ends just can't keep up with Git's development pace. So now I only have one set of tools to learn and can happily jump between platforms and not miss a beat. The standard Git under Windows even have shell integration for those die-hard GUI fans. So no, I don't condone yet another feature limiting Git frontend - we already have way to many out there for my liking. Regards, Graeme ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] [fpc-pascal] Google Code closing down
Graeme Geldenhuys wrote: Hello Mark Morgan, If you /don't/ mind, the name is Mark Morgan Lloyd. The original Morgan Lloyd (strictly, Morgan Llwyd) was a churchman of considerable renown, and at some point my family adopted his name which persists to the current generation. As far as the Git advocacy goes: frankly, old chap, I don't give a damn. My major criterion is the jurisdiction and laws (and de-facto regulations and conventions) under which a service operates, I'd prefer to use Subversion since that's what I'm marginally familiar with, but I've got nothing in particular against Git except that if you're typical of its users then perhaps I ought to have. Losing Google Code is unfortunate, particularly after losing Berlios. Yes, we agree on something. Gitorious will be lost soon too. It is sad seeing these services disappear and taking lots of open source software with them. Thanks for the heads-up. The obvious alternative for a small project would be to run an svn server as a parasite on a router: something like svnserve (possibly with Again, a clear indication that you have NEVER used Git before. Git is infinitely faster and easier to setup. You are very close there to quoting me out of context, which is something that I'm not prepared to tolerate. I agree that in-context, I could probably better have written The obvious alternative for a small project would be to run an svn (or git etc.) server as a parasite on a router: something like svnserve (or equivalent, possibly with an SSH wrapper) is pretty small. There's obviously the risk that the server will be lost, but if collaborative users are persuaded to pull and republish the entire repository (svnsync or whatever) that can be mitigated. HOWEVER, the thing that I was trying to emphasise was the next paragraph, where I warned that from recent experience exposing SSH will result in undesired traffic, and even if Subversion (or Git, or anything else) has as good implicit security as SSH if it's considered to offer a potential entry point for hackers then /it/ /will/ be attacked. If there are constant hacker attacks it will inflate the amount of data that passes through the routers (DSL, leased line or whatever) even if it's rejected by the firewalls, and this might attract ISP charges which are obviously highly undesirable. This could possibly be avoided by using an unfamiliar port, but at best this is security by obscurity and it has the disadvantage that published data probably won't be noticed by people like archive.org or Google. -- Mark Morgan Lloyd markMLl .AT. telemetry.co .DOT. uk [Opinions above are the author's, not those of his employers or colleagues] ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] [fpc-pascal] Google Code closing down
On 15/03/2015 20:32, Martin Frb wrote: I'm not talking about just installing it and not doing anything with it - that's NOT using a product, so you can't review it based on that. I forget that in my reply: That is what some people do (and what I pointed out): install, but not really use. I did *not* judge GIT on that. I did judge your statement on it, that /As 99% of developers would tell you, Git is simply// the better product./ 1) How would those none users even judge that, what value would there statement have. 2) Should they really be told that GIT was best for them? If they do not want/care to use all the features. If for example all they want is an online backup, with access to all previous backups (revisions): Should I tell them GIT is the best product for that task? I am willing to believe that 99% of the developers you know / you have asked say that (and even that, when they said it, it was correct in the situation.) But the developers you know / you have asked are not a random selected group, they are not representative of *all* developers. If you state the above, without clarification of what group of developers, in oher word, if you refer to *all* developers then I disagree. So I am convinced that: - either a lesser percentage does say so - they are giving bad advice (telling someone to use git, who would be better off without) ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] [fpc-pascal] Google Code closing down
On 15 March 2015 at 16:13, Sven Barth pascaldra...@googlemail.com wrote: On 15.03.2015 15:11, vfclists . wrote: I think the main FPC developers need to realize that sooner or later they are allow going to retire from FPC development and move onto other things, or just retire form working life, or finally to the great happy retirement home in the sky, and a new generation will have to take over FPC development. They have to plan and workout a succession, and that succession will have to involve a new generation of programmers who learned different ways of working, and that more or less involves Git and a whole lot of other tools. Somehow all this indifference to Git bothers me because it seems they are ignoring the greater realities of life. If a new generation are going to get involved with FPC and Lazarus development, and the main developers are really concerned with all the time and effort they put into this great product not going to waste when they retire then they ought to reconsider the indifference or aversion to Git. This is what the aversion or indifference to Git signifies me. It doesn't mean that I don't think they don't have any plans for how the project will be continued in the long term future, but there seems to an indifference in the appeal the working culture has for newer generation. They need foster a passion and a commitment (fanboy fanaticism may be the right word) to Lazarus and FPC in a new generation. Users that want to be developers for FPC should first and foremost love the language. What backend we use to manage the code should not be important then. There are even successful projects out there that still use CVS, so don't come with if it's not Git then no one will come. Regards, Sven My reply is not so much about Git being superior to SVN, its more about how to broaden the appeal of Lazarus and FreePascal to a new generation who will carry it forward into the future. I know that FreePascal developers are grizzled veterans who have seen lots of new fads come and go, but how do you draw in a new generation of users to a good product, when there are so many competing (and mostly inferior) alternatives around? The 'real men use the DOS/Git command line', 'real men use SVN', 'real men don't drink Diet Coke', 'real men use Emacs' image doesn't help. It is more about image rather than substance. I am not saying that switching from Git to SVN will popularize FreePascal and Lazarus, but choice of version control aside, what can broaden the appeal of FreePascal and Lazarus to a new generation. It probably warrants a different thread. I know this isn't the style of FreePascal and Lazarus's developers who are a group of dedicated volunteers, but Pascal is still quite popular in Europe, and it may be time to seek some funds from some European funding agency and give FreePascal and Lazarus developers, together with the whole Pascal ecosystem the major push it definitely deserves. -- Frank Church === http://devblog.brahmancreations.com ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] [fpc-pascal] Google Code closing down
El 15/03/15 a les 11:10, Graeme Geldenhuys ha escrit: Hello Mark Morgan, I wasn't going to reply because I've had enough fruitless debates in these mailing lists. But here I go again - I just can't help myself - especially if I see false statement being thrown around as if they are fact. [snipped lengthy part about git features] Again, a clear indication that you have NEVER used Git before. Git is infinitely faster and easier to setup. Start a new Git repository for an existing code base $ cd /path/to/my/codebase $ git init (1) $ git add . (2) $ git commit(3) 1. Create a /path/to/my/codebase/.git directory. 2. Add all existing files to the index. 3. Record the pristine state as the first commit in the history. Congratulations, you have a fully working and 100% setup Git repository! No server required, no parasite service/daemon required etc. I don't dispute that, I even tentatively migrated my googlecode projects to github (though I might reconsider and use bitbucket instead), but the same can be said about mercurial. I still cannot wrap my head around git, though I had no difficulty picking up mercurial (at least for basic functionality). I don't really see the advantages of using git instead of mercurial (other than going with the flow, but then I would stop using pascal if that was my main motivation). Bye -- Luca ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] [fpc-pascal] Google Code closing down
Reading the replies I can clearly see that neither of you have ever used Git for actual work. I have, and I do. That said, only for maybe 6 to 9 month by now, and in that time I might well only have scratched the surface of it, and yet much to discover. But never mind how well I know it, that was never the point. I did at *no* time say that git was not good, or could not be useful. I said that, it is not always the best choice, for that: read on below: I'm not talking about just installing it and not doing anything with it - that's NOT using a product, so you can't review it based on that. / Look around. I have seen many git repositories (svn probably too), where // the (sole) committer uses git in a way, that cvs would allow to do more. // How is git better for them? / Your statement is so ridiculous I had to laugh out loud. Git is magnitudes better that CVS and SubVersion combined. And yes it is extremely useful even for a sole developer. That has nothing to do with what I wrote. And I never said that this was not the case. Yes it *can* be very useful for a single developer. But that does not change, that there are developers who store their projects in GIT, but who do not use the features at all. For such a developer it can be said, that even CVS has more feature, than the set of features they use in GIT. This is one case, where GIT was clearly not the best choice. (Assuming they had choice) It is not about what GIT can do, but what a developer makes out of it. And also what a developer actually wants or needs. then please stop spreading FUD Read what I wrote, before falsely accusing me of spreading FUD. if you actually tried git, you would soon realise it is a vital tool I tried it, not only did I try it, I use it for some projects. I still stand by the statement that I made. I regard Git just as important as a good programmer editor or IDE. Yes, that important! I agree, yet there are many IDEs, and for different tasks different IDE are better suited ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] [fpc-pascal] Google Code closing down
Reading the replies I can clearly see that neither of you have ever used Git for actual work. I have, and I do. That said, only for maybe 6 to 9 month by now, and in that time I might well only have scratched the surface of it, and yet much to discover. But never mind how well I know it, that was never the point. I did at *no* time say that git was not good, or could not be useful. I said that, it is not always the best choice, for that: read on below: I'm not talking about just installing it and not doing anything with it - that's NOT using a product, so you can't review it based on that. / Look around. I have seen many git repositories (svn probably too), where // the (sole) committer uses git in a way, that cvs would allow to do more. // How is git better for them? / Your statement is so ridiculous I had to laugh out loud. Git is magnitudes better that CVS and SubVersion combined. And yes it is extremely useful even for a sole developer. That has nothing to do with what I wrote. And I never said that this was not the case. Yes it *can* be very useful for a single developer. But that does not change, that there are developers who store their projects in GIT, but who do not use the features at all. For such a developer it can be said, that even CVS has more feature, than the set of features they use in GIT. This is one case, where GIT was clearly not the best choice. (Assuming they had choice) It is not about what GIT can do, but what a developer makes out of it. And also what a developer actually wants or needs. then please stop spreading FUD Read what I wrote, before falsely accusing me of spreading FUD. if you actually tried git, you would soon realise it is a vital tool I tried it, not only did I try it, I use it for some projects. I still stand by the statement that I made. I regard Git just as important as a good programmer editor or IDE. Yes, that important! I agree, yet there are many IDEs, and for different tasks different IDE are better suited ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] [fpc-pascal] Google Code closing down
On 03/15/2015 08:21 AM, Florian Klämpfl wrote: Am 15.03.2015 um 13:06 schrieb Paul Breneman: On 03/15/2015 05:44 AM, Florian Klämpfl wrote: Am 15.03.2015 um 11:10 schrieb Graeme Geldenhuys: NOBODY I know has ever considered going back to SubVersion after using Git. Good to know that upper case NOBODY includes me :) Here is a simple introduction to git (as well as Linux, Python, Vim): I know git and I can use it but I cannot get used to it. Besides a lot of other things which annoy me, it still misses good gui tools for me, especially on non-windows. TortoiseGit on Windows is ok, but something like CommitMonitor which I use for fast code reviewing is afaik not avaiblable for git. And yes, I am a gui guy and I refuse to type lengthy command line message which I've always to look up in some self made cheat sheet or in the man pages. http://levinux.com Bad for them that I am not enabling JavaScript (or whatever) for some random site :) Sorry, I'll try to put both links together next time: http://mikelev.in/ux/ ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
