Re: [FRIAM] tools, trollers, and language

, June 12, 2017 3:46 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] tools, trollers, and language At the risk of another discursion: I think I just realized what I've been (almost) seeing of value in all this back and forth: 1.

Re: [FRIAM] tools, trollers, and language

On 06/12/2017 02:03 PM, Nick Thompson wrote: > What you are calling "levels" I am calling "cross sections"? Yes, a cross section would be 1 level. > And it is the partial arbitrariness of what one sees in a cross section that > makes it less valuable than a layer. Not quite. What you see

Re: [FRIAM] tools, trollers, and language

:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Steven A Smith Sent: Monday, June 12, 2017 3:35 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] tools, trollers, and language NST - [NST==>I like “source” and “target”. Let’s use these te

Re: [FRIAM] tools, trollers, and language

om> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] tools, trollers, and language Sorry. I didn't mean anything nefarious with the "repeat a lie often enough" thing. I introduced an onion as an example of a thing, in the real world, that you can look at in terms of levels or layers. And looking at it in

Re: [FRIAM] tools, trollers, and language

Right. My only point was to distinguish the two procedures for examining a thing, because one's choice of procedure can bias one's results. (obviously) With EricS' very detailed throwdown in favor of hierarchical accumulation AND Russ' chosen _target_ of urban systems, I think it's critical

Re: [FRIAM] tools, trollers, and language

At the risk of another discursion: I think I just realized what I've been (almost) seeing of value in all this back and forth: 1. I (and Nick) heard Glen's invocation of the Onion as an attempt to explicate a useful difference between levels and layers in the understanding of Complexity

Re: [FRIAM] tools, trollers, and language

/*NST -*/ */[NST==>I like “source” and “target”. Let’s use these terms here on out. “Domain” is probably unnecessary, and might lead to hand-waving. I still hate “conceptual metaphor” as introducing potential for confusion. Anytime you say “This thing is a That” you are invoking a

Re: [FRIAM] tools, trollers, and language

Sorry. I didn't mean anything nefarious with the "repeat a lie often enough" thing. I introduced an onion as an example of a thing, in the real world, that you can look at in terms of levels or layers. And looking at it in terms of layers produces something different (and presumably more

Re: [FRIAM] tools, trollers, and language

ity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] tools, trollers, and language Nick - To try to offer my own understanding of Glen's position/assertion... I (like you) believe that his mere *invocation* of an onion in this context had a metaphorical quality to it, b

Re: [FRIAM] tools, trollers, and language

ckthompson/naturaldesigns/ -Original Message- From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen ? Sent: Monday, June 12, 2017 1:55 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] tools, trollers, and language Hm.

Re: [FRIAM] tools, trollers, and language

:40 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] tools, trollers, and language FWIW In my parlance (I think well informed by formal usage), A conceptual metaphor has a source and a target domain. The target domain is the doma

Re: [FRIAM] tools, trollers, and language

raldesigns/ -Original Message- From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen ? Sent: Monday, June 12, 2017 12:45 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] tools, trollers, and language Just to clarify, no, t

Re: [FRIAM] tools, trollers, and language

Hm. I guess I'll say it at least one more time. I did NOT offer an onion as a model of complexity. You're using Goebbles on me, aren't you? Here: I did NOT offer an onion as a model of complexity. I did NOT offer an onion as a model of complexity. I did NOT offer an onion as a model of

Re: [FRIAM] tools, trollers, and language

Original Message- From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen ? Sent: Monday, June 12, 2017 12:45 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] tools, trollers, and language Just to clarify, no, that's not at all

Re: [FRIAM] tools, trollers, and language

Just to clarify, no, that's not at all what I did. I did not propose onion as a source and layer as a target. That completely misses my point. An onion is a thing that can be sliced up, thought about, analyzed, by various different methods. No metaphor involved. This tendency to see

Re: [FRIAM] tools, trollers, and language

FWIW In my parlance (I think well informed by formal usage), A /conceptual metaphor/ has a /source/ and a /target/ domain. The /target/ domain is the domain one is trying to understand/explain by comparison to the /source/ domain. The /source/ domain is considered the/image donor/. We use

Re: [FRIAM] tools, trollers, and language

And as I tried to imply in my note about "lamina" being a biased term, DLA is a schematic analog, meaning using the term "DLA" unadorned with context, leaves many variables unbound, one of which is whether it's a parallel or serial implementation. On 06/12/2017 08:36 AM, ┣glen┫ wrote: > So,

Re: [FRIAM] tools, trollers, and language

Thanks for asking. Well, I still don't know what y'all mean when you say "metaphor" because the meaning seems to vary. E.g. you say "a metaphor like 'layer'", indicating that 'layer' is the metaphor. Yet you also say things like "onion metaphor", indicating that onions are the metaphor.

Re: [FRIAM] tools, trollers, and language

THIS MAY BE MOOT, BY NOW; GOT STUCK IN MY OUTBOX. Glen, I like the idea of turning these discussions into publications, although I doubt that I have the firepower. Let's just keep that as a thought. Explicating a metaphor like "layer" is for me a serious and important art. It starts, I

Re: [FRIAM] tools, trollers, and language

Re Troll & OP, like Steve said. Re discussions amongst people who disagree: I just read that analysis of voice & speech patterns could reveal concussion related brain damage far before normal methods. Possibly, like IdeaTree, analysing the structure, grammar, word choice, etc of a conversation,

Re: [FRIAM] tools, trollers, and language

n ? Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2017 6:39 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] tools, trollers, and language I think you and I on the same page. My first thought (before the concept-mapping tools) was to collaboratively develop an onto

Re: [FRIAM] tools, trollers, and language

nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ <http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/> *From:*Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Tom Johnson *Sent:* Thursday, June 08, 2017 7:18 PM *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> *

Re: [FRIAM] tools, trollers, and language

Densmore *Sent:* Thursday, June 08, 2017 6:08 PM *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] tools, trollers, and language No, my troll comment was meant for Nick's OP. Not in an unkind way, but ... On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 4:05 PM,

Re: [FRIAM] tools, trollers, and language

Yes! thanks! The tool is IdeaTreeLive and attempts to address *some* of the issues discussed here. If Ron is still live on this list, I trust he will weigh in. He's clearly thought a lot about these issues (as several of us obviously have) but with a

Re: [FRIAM] tools, trollers, and language

e.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ > > > > > > -Original Message- > From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen ? > Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2017 6:39 PM > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> >

Re: [FRIAM] tools, trollers, and language

com> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] tools, trollers, and language I think you and I on the same page. My first thought (before the concept-mapping tools) was to collaboratively develop an ontology so that we could all talk about the same things. But my guess is that would just cause even more h

Re: [FRIAM] tools, trollers, and language

:18 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] tools, trollers, and language Steve: I think the mind mapping developer you are thinking of is Ron Newman -- <mailto:ron.new...@gmail.com> ron.new..

Re: [FRIAM] tools, trollers, and language

<friam@redfish.com> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] tools, trollers, and language No, my troll comment was meant for Nick's OP. Not in an unkind way, but ... On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 4:05 PM, Steven A Smith <sasm...@swcp.com <mailto:sasm...@swcp.com> > wrote: Glen - I have fou

Re: [FRIAM] tools, trollers, and language

Steve: I think the mind mapping developer you are thinking of is Ron Newman -- ron.new...@gmail.com TJ Tom Johnson Institute for Analytic Journalism -- Santa Fe, NM USA 505.577.6482(c)505.473.9646(h) Society

Re: [FRIAM] tools, trollers, and language

I think you and I on the same page. My first thought (before the concept-mapping tools) was to collaboratively develop an ontology so that we could all talk about the same things. But my guess is that would just cause even more hemming and hawing over terms. Regardless of tools, someone

Re: [FRIAM] tools, trollers, and language

Yes, I suppose that one could say that Nick is the best kind of Troll here... I always appreciate his (deliberately) naive questions and hair splitting even when it IS the hair on my own chinny chin chin! On 6/8/17 4:08 PM, Owen Densmore wrote: No, my troll comment was meant for Nick's OP.

Re: [FRIAM] tools, trollers, and language

No, my troll comment was meant for Nick's OP. Not in an unkind way, but ... On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 4:05 PM, Steven A Smith wrote: > Glen - > > I have found concept mapping tools to be helpful in this context, but > usually in live-brainstorming sessions... with one (or more)

Re: [FRIAM] tools, trollers, and language

Glen - I have found concept mapping tools to be helpful in this context, but usually in live-brainstorming sessions... with one (or more) operators clicking and typing and dragging and connecting while others chatter out loud, then shifting the mouse/keyboard(s) to another(s). I know we