Just saw this in yesterday's National Post:
National Post Online
December 9, 2000
Chretien eyes cradle-to-grave benefits
Longing for a legacy, PM creates committee to study guaranteed annual
income program
James Baxter
Southam News
OTTAWA - Jean Chretien is
We will do a book launch for our new book, Basic Income: Economic security
for all Canadians (Between the Lines, Toronto, 1999) from 7-9 pm on Friday,
January 28 at the Bloor Street United Church, 300 Bloor St. W., Toronto.
All are welcome for some good discussion.
Sally Lerner, Charles Clark
To: John Vandenberg and friends on several mail lists.
Many thanks, John, for sending me the executive summary of
the article by Lucy Sullivan entitled, "Tax Injustice: Keeping the
family cap-in-hand," which can be found at www.cis.org.au
in the Issues Analysis section. I found Ms.
worker is doing.
Now it seems to me that the standard practice of our most capital
intensive industry, electric power, the industry which defines the
lifestyle of industrial societies, provides a powerful argument in favor
of establishing a universal basic income, in four sections, for our
huma
A few months ago I started playing with the idea of
an absolutely universal basic income. I deliberately have not read any of the
literature on it (like Sally's book) so that I could work out the ramifications
of this idea without being influenced (or discouraged) by previous thought
FWers - Just to let you know - a primer on Basic Income is now available
from Between the Lines books in Toronto, Ontario, Canada.. Authors are
Sally Lerner, Charles M.A. Clark and W. Robert Needham. I take no royalties
- the book is meant to be widely circulated and read to stimulate
discussion
) 471 0320.
Keep at it !
j
--
From: "S. Lerner" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: FW New book on Basic Income
Date: Fri, Dec 10, 1999, 3:45 pm
FWers - Just to let you know - a primer on Basic Income is now available
from Between
SASE holds one big international conference every year. The theme of
this one hardly guaranteed that basic income would play a prominent role in
it.
Yet, it did. Among the countless parallel workshops, one was explicitly
devoted to basic income, with a critical review of a number of recent
book
ning means tests.
3) The highest stage of evolution, of simply giving people enough to live
on and letting them do as they please with their own time. In different
countries it is called Mincome, Citizen's income, Guaranteed Annual Income
(GAI), and Basic Income.
The question is then how to stop the
Once again, you have cut through the BS of my thinking. On the one hand, I
can find rational answers such as the Basic Income which I am sure will
provide a corrective for the capitalistic system. I can also agree with
others answers, such as WesBurt's proposals or some of the thoughts
Dear Eva:
Once again, you have cut through the BS of my thinking. On the one hand, I
can find rational answers such as the Basic Income which I am sure will
provide a corrective for the capitalistic system. I can also agree with
others answers, such as WesBurt's proposals or some
in the park we are violating our status in life. Give us a basic
income and get off our back, I think would be endorsed by the majority of
the poor. Allow us to have dreams for our children and we will live
modestly.
Respectfully,
Thomas Lunde
--
From: "S. Lerner" [EMAIL
are violating our status in life. Give us a basic
income and get off our back, I think would be endorsed by the majority of
the poor. Allow us to have dreams for our children and we will live
modestly.
Respectfully,
Thomas Lunde
--
From: "S. Lerner" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Much to my delight, the following appeared in today's Toronto Globe and
Mail: A13 ("J.K.Galbraith, who is 90, delivered this lecture last week on
receiving an honorary doctorate from the London School of Economics. It is
reprinted from The Guardian." )
Excerpt: "I come to two pieces of the
Title: Re Basic Income re JK Galbraith
Tom Walker wrote:
JKG made a further contribution to economics by siring James K., whose book
Created Unequal shows that carefully done equations and regressions can
stand for something after all -- such as debunking the mythology of
mainstream
Title: Basic Income re JK Galbraith
Picking up a book at the local library, my hand was guided to A View from
the Stands by John Kenneth Galbraith. I never really know how to classify
Galbraith whether as an economist, a liberal who happens to be an economist
or a professional writer who
s demoralizing. But even here there is a question:
Why is leisure so uniformly bad for the poor and so uniformly good for the
exceptionally well-to-do?
We can easily afford an income floor. (Thomas: Interesting that in My
Family Basic Income Proposal, I used the metaphor of a Basic Income
provi
Have a look at this
"A Universal Basic Income (UBI) is an unconditional cash payment to
individuals sufficient to meet basic needs."
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.geocities.com/~ubinz/
also
I have developed a model "Widgets in S-Basic" that demonstrates that a
"Citizen
Dear Mark Elliot,
The best source for a philosophical defense of the basic income
concept is Philippe Van Parijs, Real Freedom for All: What (if anything)
can justify capitalism? Oxford U. Press, 1995.
The best person to contact on all matters pertaining to basic
income
A while back on this list there was a discsusion
of basic income schemes. Can anyone give a reference
(web or hard) to work on this. I am particularly interested
in stuff moddelling the tax/national accounts effects,
but general stuff would be good too.
Thanks
Mark
The topic of basic income has come up on the "Third Way" Economic Policy
debate list at http://www.netnexus.org/debates/3wayecon/
I personally find the tone of that third way debate stuffy and unrewarding.
But there is an argument there calculated to raise the hackles of Thomas
Lu
Since when did economists in general defend the system? Some did, others
did not. Marx was an economist who both recognized the tremendous
potential
I agree, there are some good economists (those who know and admit their
limitations) and some bad economists. The problem is that the bad ones
Jay Hanson wrote:
Since when did economists in general defend the system? Some did, others
did not. Marx was an economist who both recognized the tremendous
potential
I agree, there are some good economists (those who know and admit their
limitations) and some bad economists. The
automation causes structural unemployment, the total employed seems to remain
pretty stable. Technology may generate as many "jobs" as it displaces. (Jobs
in quotation marks because this mode of employment is fading as it is replaced
by sets of skills marketed by individuals.)
A guaran
Countries like Sweden which taxed their wealthy heavily, but allowed for
display of wealth, propered, even though the very wealthy left for lower
taxed regimes.
Sweden felt the pinch in the last decades with growing
unemployment and stagnation, though ofcourse, the standard
of living is
ork [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: September 5, 1998 7:55 PM
Subject: Re: Re Basic Income
Thomas Lunde wrote the following quote from Mr. Krugman, economist
at MIT:
"subordinating the needs of finance to those of people"
What a unique idea! It's a refreshing change after the '80's mantra
"Gr
Thomas Lunde:
In summing up this lengthy rebuttal, I have had to do some soul searching
about my concepts. Basically, I believe people come before profit and that
people are more important than profit.
If by this you mean that people should not be economically exploited, and
that they should
ehalf.
Now has appeared Jeff Gates's book, The Ownership Solution, detailing such an
approach. http://www.ownershipsolution.com/
Whereas Tom Lunde's essay, Basic Income, seems to rely on government to issue
and control funds, the solution envisioned by Gates relies on the operation of
business
Thanks very much for the sumup.
Just a couple of notes:
- If someone writes beautifully that does not necessarily
mean that his conclusions are right
- if someone experienced things - same applies.
Otherwise you should all believe me straight away, as I am probably
the only one on this list who
ehalf.
Now has appeared Jeff Gates's book, The Ownership Solution, detailing such an
approach. http://www.ownershipsolution.com/
Whereas Tom Lunde's essay, Basic Income, seems to rely on government to issue
and control funds, the solution envisioned by Gates relies on the operation of
business
, I will use your
comments to share them.
-Original Message-
From: Bob McDaniel [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: FutureWork [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: September 6, 1998 1:49 PM
Subject: FW: Re: Basic Income
Hi all,
Another approach to an income for all:
I once made the simple extrapolation
Ed said:
In Economics 101, under "perfectly
competitive equilibrium", everybody is paid their full worth, and there is
no possibility of monopoly profit, since monopoly does not exist.
However,
like the much maligned economist's assumption of "rationality", perfectly
competitive equilibrium is
nally through education
as each individual desires to the level they desire.
Frankly, I think the aboriginal people will find this acceptable, however,
let us let them speak for themselves. I take away none of their rights
regarding land or status, I suggest the change from Treaty payments to the
Dear Ed;
Just a small continuation of my last post in which I argued that:
In summing up this lengthy rebuttal, I have had to do some soul searching
about my concepts. Basically, I believe people come before profit and that
people are more important than profit. We could still have Capital,
Dear Thomas,
Your digitalized debate with Ed Weick is classic. It's not only
informative (where did you two *get* all that information!?), it's
fun and concise and lively and thought-provoking and everything a
good debate should be. The Lunde-Weick Exchange is right up there
with Benny
Thomas Lunde wrote the following quote from Mr. Krugman, economist
at MIT:
"subordinating the needs of finance to those of people"
What a unique idea! It's a refreshing change after the '80's mantra
"Greed Is Good, Greed Is God" popularized by Oliver's Gecko and the
oil companies'
Durant wrote:
The following article is a masterful
response to pie-thinking (zero-sum mentality):
Szczepanski, J. (1981). Individuality and society.
Impact of science on society, 31(4), 461-466.
any chance of a sum-up or abstract?
[snip]
I'll just try to quote from loving
Thomas Lunde wrote the following quote from Mr. Krugman, economist
at MIT:
"subordinating the needs of finance to those of people"
What a unique idea! It's a refreshing change after the '80's mantra
"Greed Is Good, Greed Is God" popularized by Oliver's Gecko and the
oil companies'
e too many people,
but reality is often very different than a statistic or an experts opinion.
"often"?? Would you quantify that on a % basis? Why should you be the
expert?
T 2:
basic income goes for basic food and shelter
requirements and with some careful budgeting, perhaps the fulfi
Canada, a substantial part of the surplus is distributed via the tax system
and by other means. If the surplus did not exist, there would be no point
to arguing that we should have a basic income. Quite apart from these
surpluses, the various forms of producers' capital need people to run them
I refer to Thomas Lunde's original subject and Ed Weick's comments on it.
I'll abstract one para:
(EW)
This is an idea that goes way back to Major Douglas and the original social
credit. I don't think it can happen that way. The reason that the poor
have no money is that they are not on
in a couple of days to present a paper I
wrote entitled "The Family Basic Income Proposal" at the BIEN Conference.
The genesis of this paper came from a challenge by a FW participant arising
from some comments I made in a thread called "Some Hard Questions on Basic
Income" las
-Original Message-
From: pete [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: September 2, 1998 8:46 PM
Subject: FW: Re: Basic income
"Thomas Lunde" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Thomas: Population is a problem, but
The Numbers
In round numbers, Canadas population is 30 million and if every citizen
received the Basic Income, the total cost would be $450 billion. Canadas
current budget is $150 billion leaving a shortfall of $300 billion. Seems
pretty impossible, doesnt it?
Just for example, lets say
a $25,000 taxable income which amounts to a tax bill of
$6,250. His total income is $15,000 from the Basic Income and $18,750 from
his earned income for a total of $33,750. His tax rate is approx 15%.
Harry is a single man who earns $80,000 per year. The $15,000 deducted at
source, leave him $65,000
The Family Basic Income Proposal
by Thomas Lunde
March 9, 1998
Money, we all need it, but too few of us are getting it. Traditionally, we
got money through work or investment. One of the millennium crises, is the
collapse of work as a means of getting money for many people. Nowhere
live on and cultivate flood-prone
land: the backgrounder states. Well, if they would have had some kind of
Basic Income, perhaps there would not be so many landless or those who are
landless could have used a portion of the Basic Income to get started in
some urban venture. But with no work, no pay
will within our
lifetimes, or even our great grandchildren's.
Thomas: Good question - the answer has to be government. Of course if only
Canada implemented a Basic Income scheme would all the rich leave - perhaps
we might look at it as a good things such as putting all the lepers on an
isolated island
Thomas:
As I said in my intro, this is only half the posting. And it was basically
to answer the middle class knee jerk reactions to the concept of a Basic
Income. My plan was only done for Canada, so I can't respond to your
information. I think when you see the actual concepts
o drop. I think a Basic Income, over time will act as a form of
birth control.
Perhaps, but this is a different situation than that which drives low
birth rates in affluent countries. I wonder what the birth rate is
among the moderately independently wealthy, that is, those whose
fortunes allow th
A Message to the Middle Class on the Financing of:
The Family Basic Income Proposal
by Thomas Lunde
August 27, 1998
There once was a race of people of high achievement who believed that the
value of their Civilization arose from their relationship with the Sun.
They made the Sun their God
You can access this information on the Internet:
http://www.uva.nl/congresbureau
At this site, scroll down to the September 98 listing for this conference
Sally
Brad McCormick wrote in reply to a comment of mine re Marx getting a job
instead of sitting around starving and theorizing:
You bring out a very important consideration. To paraphrase an old
Coca-Cola
ad, what, at the back of our minds, all us scholars (in both senses
of that word...) are
Jay Hanson:
Seriously though, one can't eat infoburgers or Third Wave Stew.
Energy is the prerequisite to complexity in society -- it always
has been and always will be.
The possibility of running out of energy producing resources has to be taken
seriously. See the latest Scientific American
At 09:30 98-03-01 -0500, Thomas Lunde wrote:
To answer Andres multiplication of population by Basic Income Grant is
answered by the explanation that everyone is entitled to the Basic Income,
given that they have no income or income below the basic income amount.
This in essence puts an economic
Bob McDaniel wrote {regarding a synopsis of
some of Marshall McLuhan's ideas]:
[snip]
1) What does it enhance?
2) What does it retrieve?
3) What does it obsolesce?
4) What does it reverse into?
Try it out on the MAI.
[snip]
Montaigne had a "study wall", where he posted adages
worth
So Brad, I disagree, it is not the perks of the office meeting or a
businessman's lunch that keeps capitalism going, it is the perverting of
life to a language that defines reality as a competition which of course is
reinforced with sciences current love affair with evolution. Let me
Brad McCormick corrected me correctly - my apologies for memory
infallibility. On looking up my resource for that statement, I find that I
should have named Descartes rather than Rousseau.
Quote from The Web of Life by Fritjof Capra (Page 19)
Rene Descartes created the method of analytic
--
Hi Eva et al,
I must point out that there is a distinction between companies making
lots of money and CEOs etc. making huge salaries.
The justification for awarding the big bucks is to give an incentive
to those whose efforts lead the company towards profitability.
But I surmise
the viewpoint
of space. Once the mindset was established then came the many conscious
scientific investigations (jobs!!) to reinforce the preconceptions.
And, of course, all this can be directed toward the issue of Basic Income
(which may mean no need for income at all!). Rem
Bob McDaniel wrote:
Eva Durant wrote:
.
Books by Beniger (The Control Revolution) and Kelly (Out of Control)
suggest, to me, the popularization of the ideas of cybernetics
(communication and control). Absorption by the general populace of such
ideas, reflected in current art
yments can be
canceled and replaced with a Basic Income of $9000. Anyone receiving more
from a particular program such as a family of a single mother with two kids
on welfare, would receive $9000 plus $6000 for a total of $15,000. In
Ontario, a single mom in these circumstances currently recei
public intervention fill the vacuum left
by capitalism, without crippling capitalism itself. That's what we
haven't figured out yet.
Her summation here outlines for me the crux of our argument about the "why"
of a Basic Income. Just as business is finding it profitable to move into
Un
Thomas Lunde wrote:
Ed Weick wrote:
We have also witnessed an increasing convergence of
the interests of our universities with the concerns of business
Quoted from a Posting on gdk97 list
My comment on the Private vs. Public Sector Debate:
Bear in mind that one of the five
logic, number and eventually to money to such a degree and has
so perverted language that discussions of any activity become impossible
without a monetized evaluation.
One of the advantages that attracts me to the concept of a Basic Income as a
"right" for every citizen of every c
My suggestion of starting the Basic Income with the 18-25 year old was
hinting at a possible point of departure. Let them (our youth) do with it
the way they see fit. I'm sure it couldn't be worst. Who knows, true
"educators" might just emerge from such a crowd of liberated (financial
At 13:14 98-02-26 -0500, Bob McDaniel wrote:
Books by Beniger (The Control Revolution) and Kelly (Out of Control)
suggest, to me, the popularization of the ideas of cybernetics
(communication and control). Absorption by the general populace of such
ideas, reflected in current art (drugs and
s are substantially equivalent
to the $9000 proposed.
Don't get me wrong - I'm all for a Basic Income as a fundamental right.
However, intuitively it will not happen from cutting up the pie into
smaller pieces for all, but maybe by sharing the bigger pie more equitably.
Automation now allows us to do it, a
Jim Dator wrote:
Many thanks, Tom. No need to send it now. And thanks for the other
information, too.
What in your opinion (and I ask others on the list, too) were the main
reasons, or forces, which prevented the logic of automation moving towards
a shorter work week and eventually the
Jim Dator wrote:
Tor, my youngest son is in the midst of a year-long project on all things
Norwegian--religion, sports, food, rosemailing, music, drama, even
Olympic medals, it turns out--so he will find your words informative, as
do I.
But what happens even in Norway when the oil and
Excuse me if this is a reposting.
--
Jim Dator wrote:
But my concern is for those,
who for whatever reason, do not want to be, or are unable to be,
'knowledge' workers.
Will there be a place for them in our future economy? Sure, you can
retrain many workers, but we need decent jobs
On Fri, 27 Feb 1998, Thomas Lunde wrote:
snip, snip, snip.
I do not think our solution will come from industrialists or from
politicians. I think our solution will come from re-educating the public to
think of what they want and then to demand that in a way that those in power
Andre Gouin wrote,
e.g. let's say the GAI is $1000./year. In Canada, at say 30 millions of us,
that means 30,000 million CAD. Now by the general reaction to Martin's 2.5
billion CAD to students over ten years, I've grave doubts about the chances
of any Basic Income soon, unless it can be shown
But if a 32 hour work week is more expensive
than a 40 hour week, why are we surprised when no one bites?
A 32-hour work week is more expensive only because of the high component of
fixed non-wage labour costs. Most of those fixed costs arise from
legislation, not from market forces. Lars Osberg
I wonder how this one would fare if put to a national referendum?
FWP.
I do not think our solution will come from industrialists or from
politicians. I think our solution will come from re-educating the public to
think of what they want and then to demand that in a way that those in power
become powerless to refuse. That education can come from a disaster
Arthur Cordell wrote,
The change needed is profound. So profound that I have trouble
finding a place to start (this especially now when children are being
taught computer skills in kindergarten so they can become part of the new
'educated' workforce.)
Actually, my four-year old is quite
On Fri, 27 Feb 1998, Durant wrote:
I do not think our solution will come from industrialists or from
politicians. I think our solution will come from re-educating the public to
think of what they want and then to demand that in a way that those in power
become powerless to
--
Hi all,
[Thomas Lunde wrote...]
Excuse me if this is a reposting.
--
But my concern is for those,
who for whatever reason, do not want to be, or are unable to be,
'knowledge' workers.
Will there be a place for them in our future economy? Sure, you can
retrain many workers,
are loose on the land. The Newtonian physics model is dead, it's just
taking a little time to carry the body away. Capitalism is showing major
cracks that were deferred by the cold war, it's like Henry George's Land
Rents in economic thinking, or our idea of a Basic Income, Proportional
voting
Many thanks, Tom. No need to send it now. And thanks for the other
information, too.
What in your opinion (and I ask others on the list, too) were the main
reasons, or forces, which prevented the logic of automation moving towards
a shorter work week and eventually the end of work from playing
Tor, my youngest son is in the midst of a year-long project on all things
Norwegian--religion, sports, food, rosemailing, music, drama, even
Olympic medals, it turns out--so he will find your words informative, as
do I.
But what happens even in Norway when the oil and fish run out? Or have the
At 13:03 98-02-25 -0800, Tom Walker wrote:
Jim Dator expressed his interest in documenting the early debates and
responses to automation. The termed reputedly was coined in the early 1950s
by a guy named Diebold (can't find his first name at the moment). What to
do about automation was a big
.
Books by Beniger (The Control Revolution) and Kelly (Out of Control)
suggest, to me, the popularization of the ideas of cybernetics
(communication and control). Absorption by the general populace of such
ideas, reflected in current art (drugs and music (forms of control!)), may
inspire
--
Hi all,
[Jim Dator wrote..]
Many thanks, Tom. No need to send it now. And thanks for the other
information, too.
What in your opinion (and I ask others on the list, too) were the main
reasons, or forces, which prevented the logic of automation moving towards
a shorter work week and
Brad wrote:
IMO, this is the *key*.
I seem to have lost the meaning of IMO which makes it hard to understand
several of your messages. Sorry about the large print, this blankity blank
program is not following it's set up or I don't know how to set it up. Grey
hairs are multiplying.
Dear Eva:
You seem to have an uncanny knack of directing my attention in your short
messages. You wrote:
I do not agree with mandatory voting,
if there is no democratically controlled
media and free flow of information.
Staying away reflect the reality
of the system and a valid opinion.
Eva
I
Unlike Thomas Lunde, the item in the following that caught my attention
was "with the threat of 'automation.'"
Gail Stewart wrote under the thread Basic Income:
"In the early 1970's in Canada, with the threat of
"automation" in the offing, the social policy strug
Jim Dator expressed his interest in documenting the early debates and
responses to automation. The termed reputedly was coined in the early 1950s
by a guy named Diebold (can't find his first name at the moment). What to do
about automation was a big issue for the newly merged AFL-CIO in the
Yes, Tom, YES. That is what I was thinking about, and I would love to
know more (maybe sending it privately if onthers on this list aren't
intersted).
Here is the book you were probably thinking of: John Diebold, Automation:
the advent of the automatic factory. Van Nostrand, 1952, although he
Bob McDaniel wrote:
A philosophical basis for a guaranteed annual income may have to await an
appropriate context for it to emerge. I suspect that the time is now past
when economic/political theory could be conceived without the explicit
incorporation of its technological context.
I agree.
"Tor Forde" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wrote:
The problem about throwing money to everybody without expecting
anything in return, is that this will throw some people into
isolation. Society ought among other things to be moral relationships
in which everybody is included. And to throw money at people
I recall reading the report of a US Commission (presidential or Senate?)
looking at automation. Was it in the 50's? It seemed to come to the
conclusion 'nothing to worry about.'
On Wed, 25 Feb 1998, Jim Dator wrote:
Yes, Tom, YES. That is what I was thinking about, and I would love to
Arthur Cordell wrote,
I recall reading the report of a US Commission (presidential or Senate?)
looking at automation. Was it in the 50's? It seemed to come to the
conclusion 'nothing to worry about.'
There were hearings of the Subcommittee on Economic Stabilization of the
Joint Economic
I should add the historical note that the congressional committee hearings
and their sanguine conclusion happened before the 1957-58 recession, the
first really big post-war recession. Worries about automation picked up
during and after the recession.
Arthur Cordell wrote,
I recall reading the
And how well it works! Not just to create alienation and political
passivity, but also to keep the lower and lower-middle classes at each
other's throats via racism, sexism, etc. When things are tough, they
attack each other instead of the elite that is the source of their
problems.
On Mon, 23
you could not find
adequate financing for your project and your livelihood. The original
question posed the question that everyone - man - woman - child
receive a Basic Income. Obviously the combined Basic Income for a
family would be higher than for an individual. With that security
Tor Forde wrote:
The danger that a Guaranted Annual Income is posing is that it can
be a
way to put people away.
[snip]
A Guaranteed Annual Income could be regarded as a kind of
scholarship
that lasted as long as it will take for people to be able to make
it on
their own.
You know one
to discontinue it because you could not find
adequate financing for your project and your livelihood. The original
question posed the question that everyone - man - woman - child
receive a Basic Income.
[snip]
I guess I haven't been reading closely enough, because I really *like*
this idea
when a major effort was
made to get the poor to vote, it would have been much simpler to lobby for mandatory voting.
Now in regards to the concept of a Basic Income,
it would seem reasonable to me to tie the right of a Basic Income to
the mandatory right to vote. In
other words, if the state
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