Re: [Geeqie-devel] Project status

[Laurent Monin]

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Hash: SHA1

Le 10/03/2016 23:05, Klaus Ethgen a écrit :
> Hi Zas,
>
> Am Do den 10. Mär 2016 um 16:02 schrieb Laurent Monin:
> >> That would be helpful. But I didn't hear from him since ages.
> > I'm still around, and reading this ml ;)
> > But i have no time to work on geeqie.
>
> That is ok. I know that, my time is also limited.
>
> But I even got no answer from my last mail to you..
>
> However, could you please add my sourceforge recovery account "eecheey6"
> (Yes, it looks like a password but that is my account I created explicit
> for that purpose.) to the sourceforge geeqie project that we can at
> least solve that problem. Vlad also doesn't react.

I don't think i have such rights to do so. I have no way to admin the
project, i guess only Vlad has full access (if sourceforge didn't nuke all).

Sourceforge is definitively dead... that's incredible what "business"
people are able to do once they put their hands on something...

- --
Zas

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Re: [Geeqie-devel] Project status

[Klaus Ethgen]

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Hi Zas,

Am Do den 10. Mär 2016 um 16:02 schrieb Laurent Monin:
> > That would be helpful. But I didn't hear from him since ages.
> I'm still around, and reading this ml ;)
> But i have no time to work on geeqie.

That is ok. I know that, my time is also limited.

But I even got no answer from my last mail to you..

However, could you please add my sourceforge recovery account "eecheey6"
(Yes, it looks like a password but that is my account I created explicit
for that purpose.) to the sourceforge geeqie project that we can at
least solve that problem. Vlad also doesn't react.

> Though i'm quite happy the project still lives.

I try my very best.

> About using github, it isn't as bad you think Klaus ;)

:-)

> Lars made some good points about the current situation, website is awful
> and non-attractive, and users can easily get lost among various source
> repos.

Well, thats the reason why I don't want to move again. The current one
is simple but very stable (As I have full control over it ;-).

> So i'm totally with him on this. A simple user-oriented website, with
> clear information about the current state of the project is a must.

I am with him too. And I already put his page online.

Regards
   Klaus
- -- 
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pub  4096R/4E20AF1C 2011-05-16   Klaus Ethgen 
Fingerprint: 85D4 CA42 952C 949B 1753  62B3 79D0 B06F 4E20 AF1C
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[Geeqie-devel] cleanup of sourceforge references

[Simon Frei]

Hi,

I cleaned up some sourceforge references, not yet including anything 
about the proposed/new github mirroring git repository.


Cheers,
Simon
>From 6a0f33887181ee518202cd09768b85f63b31ff5a Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Simon Frei 
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 21:36:58 +0100
Subject: [PATCH] cleanup of sourceforge references

---
 BUGS   | 4 ++--
 README | 9 -
 TODO   | 2 --
 3 files changed, 6 insertions(+), 9 deletions(-)

diff --git a/BUGS b/BUGS
index 74b1f26..e66f3d3 100644
--- a/BUGS
+++ b/BUGS
@@ -1,2 +1,2 @@
-Bugs and feature requests trackers are available at:
-http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=222125
+Bugs and feature requests are not currently tracked, but can be sent to:
+https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/geeqie-devel
diff --git a/README b/README
index 8d5a4d2..7c152ff 100644
--- a/README
+++ b/README
@@ -18,8 +18,8 @@ Geeqie projects goal is to move the development forward and
 also integrate the existing patches.
 
 Geeqie is currently considered stable.
-Please report any crash or odd behavior to the bugtracker:
-https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=222125=1054680
+Please report any crash or odd behavior to the mailing list:
+https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/geeqie-devel
 
 For more info see:
 http://www.geeqie.org/
@@ -67,7 +67,7 @@ geeqie-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
 
  Notes and changes for this release[section:release_notes]
 
-See http://geeqie.wiki.sourceforge.net/new_features
+See NEWS file.
 
 
   Code hackers:
@@ -271,8 +271,7 @@ in the Preferences dialog.
 
  Editor command macros   [section:editors]
 
-Editors are configured via standard desktop files, see
-https://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/geeqie/wiki/GuideEditorsConfig
+Editors are configured via standard desktop files.
 
 
  Overlay Info[section:overlay]
diff --git a/TODO b/TODO
index a2c290b..456d13d 100644
--- a/TODO
+++ b/TODO
@@ -1,5 +1,3 @@
-For long-term TODO see http://geeqie.wiki.sourceforge.net/TODO
-
 Geeqie 1.0 release plan
 
 1. release 1.0beta1 - feature freeze
-- 
2.7.0

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[Geeqie-devel] unsuscribe

[Mélodie]

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Re: [Geeqie-devel] Project status

[Laurent Monin]

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Le 10/03/2016 15:47, Klaus Ethgen a écrit :
>> I also invited zas.
>
> That would be helpful. But I didn't hear from him since ages.
I'm still around, and reading this ml ;)
But i have no time to work on geeqie.

Though i'm quite happy the project still lives.

About using github, it isn't as bad you think Klaus ;)
Lars made some good points about the current situation, website is awful
and non-attractive, and users can easily get lost among various source
repos.

So i'm totally with him on this. A simple user-oriented website, with
clear information about the current state of the project is a must.

- --
Zas


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Re: [Geeqie-devel] Project status

[Pat David]

Hello all!

I'm Pat David.  I am the person previously referenced by DrSlony (
https://sourceforge.net/p/geeqie/mailman/message/34923257/).

I'm not really qualified to speak at length about the pros/cons of the
infrastructure you're using for the project (git, ML, etc.) but I do have
some thoughts around branding and community building.

As DrSlony mentioned previously, I had built pixls.us as a means for
hopefully consolidating the Free/Libre photographic community into a single
location.  Mostly as a response to similar offerings that are tailored for
commercial/proprietary solutions.  We've got a huge and vibrant community
of photography oriented projects and users, but we were lacking any sort of
place to call home (for tutorials, showcases, communication, and more).  My
hope is that pixls.us can be that place.

The site itself is primarily the (static) website with tutorials/articles,
and a blog at https://pixls.us.  The community aspect is driven by the use
of a discourse forum for both a forum (at https://discuss.pixls.us) and as
a solution to commenting on posts for the website.  Everything on the site
is licensed cc-by-sa and I'll be pushing the code used to build the site to
github (or gitlab - not quite sure yet) soon.

I want to echo DrSlony's offer on points 2 and 3:

2. To help make you a new website.


I am juggling a handful of things at the moment but I'd be happy to help
with this if it's something you'd be interested in.  I just recently
finished porting www.gimp.org to a new design and infrastructure and I feel
like geeqie.org shouldn't be as big an endeavor? :)

I tend to favor static websites personally.  This way the only requirements
on the web server side is just that, a web server (apache, ngnix,
whatever).  If there _is_ interest, I'd be happy to go through things
further to help get a process/infrastructure in place.  (For instance, at
www.gimp.org, we use Pelican (Python static site generator) on the server
and have cronjobs git pull from the repo to rebuild and host on a schedule).

3. You lack a place where users can interact without having to sell a
kidney (mailing lists...).


The offer is absolutely out there if you'd like to host users at the site.
We currently are hosting RawTherapee, G'MIC, LuminanceHDR, PhotoFlow,
Filmulator users in their own categories.  What's nice is the confluence of
users from various OS, projects, and interests all getting a chance to
cross-pollinate ideas and works.  (The depth and breadth of free software
projects for photography never fails to amaze me).

I realize that many of you may not be fans of forums, but if you haven't
had a chance to check out the work that's been done on discourse (
http://www.discourse.org/) I think you may be pleasantly surprised.  For
instance, if we had a category just for Geeqie, all of your interactions
with the forum/community can still be done just like a mailing list.

---

More than anything else what we are trying to do is consolidate the
photographic free-software community in a way which maximizes exposure for
users to projects, workflows, and other users, while also helping to
increase visibility and attention for the ideals of Free Software in
general (and for photography in particular) to new people.

This email is already way too long and I apologize.  Please don't hesitate
to stop by, ask further questions, or just tell me to get stuffed.

Best regards,
Pat David



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http://blog.patdavid.net
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Re: [Geeqie-devel] Project status

[Hartmut Niemann]

Hi Klaus!

If you are looking for a decent bug tracker and run your own server -
do you know redmine? It is an excellent rails-based bug tracker / 
project management
web system. I use it at work with subversion, but as far as I know it 
has a git
integration as well.

Hartmut



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Re: [Geeqie-devel] Project status

[Ian Zimmerman]

On 2016-03-10 15:47 +0100, Klaus Ethgen wrote:

> > I stongly prefer mailinglist to "forums" or other web crap.
> > Anything that makes me use the mouse gets annoyance points ;-)
> 
> I personal feel the same. The mouse is an evil device. :-D

+1

I think I need to put it a bit more strongly.  If the mailing list went
away, I would not be interested in geeqie development anymore, and
probably I would gradually stop using it too.

We should move the list away from sourceforge, though.

> Well, vlad... But he is also retired. And I even don't know if he have
> a github account.

My id is "nobrowser" and I'd be very happy to join.

> I know that there _is_ a way for pull requests. (I don't know how
> recently.) They are similar to gitorious but not identical and I think,
> more hidden.

Yes, same here.  That's the general problem with github and similar Web
2.0 shops; they'll say "you can do everything the old way too" but they
won't document it, probably on purpose, so that they can yank it away at
any future time.

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Re: [Geeqie-devel] Project status

[Lars Ellenberg]

On Thu, Mar 10, 2016 at 03:47:31PM +0100, Klaus Ethgen wrote:
> > I also invited zas.
> 
> That would be helpful. But I didn't hear from him since ages.

Joined ;-)

> 
> > Feel free to invite more devs,
> 
> Well, vlad... But he is also retired. And I even don't know if he have a
> github account.

nadvornik. invited.

> > git clone git://github.com/BestImageViewer/geeqie
> > 
> > push url is: g...@github.com:BestImageViewer/geeqie.git
> 
> Yea, I know that; after long time trying it out.

> > Though I still need some time to remember the cheat sheet ;)
> 
> Would be helpful.

Maybe. Sometime.
I'm doing this to distract myself from the real work right now,
because my head did not come back with the complete results yet...

> > BTW, I did not realize the web page was already part of the geeqie repo.
> > Even better.
> 
> Sure it is. Currently I do manually copy them over but this is just a
> small step.

I used the existing web/* as template for the "gh-pages" branch,
if you want to, you can try it out by messing with your /etc/hosts:

dig +short github.io | sed -e 's/$/ www.geeqie.org/' # >> /etc/hosts
then go to www.geeqie.org (and maybe hit reload a few times).
(don't forget to remove that from hosts again when done, obviously)

If the "Tarball" is gone, but points to "releases",
you see the pages served by github.
You also get the same via bestimageviewer.github.io/geeqie,
without the "fake DNS CNAME using etc hosts".

 ;-)

If you like that,
all you have to do is to
https://help.github.com/articles/setting-up-a-www-subdomain/

And to update: simply push whatever content you like
to the gh-pages branch.

That should make it easy for "webdesigner contributors"
to suggest a complete e.g. jekyll based update,
or simple "incremental" improvements via pull requests.

btw, the "BestImageViewer" organisation was just a teaser for google.
I also claimed the "geeqie" organisation.
Now we just have to figure out how to do "github organisation aliasing".
 ;-)

Cheers,

Lars



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Re: [Geeqie-devel] Project status

[Klaus Ethgen]

Hi,

Am Do den 10. Mär 2016 um 14:45 schrieb Lars Ellenberg:
> > > 3. You lack a place where users can interact without having to sell a 
> > > kidney (mailing lists...).
> > 
> > Well, here I don't agree. What is so bad with registering on a mailing
> > list? Even without registering, you can mail to it although, from the
> > fact that it is on sourceforge, nobody is seing that mails. But the
> > concept of a mailing list allows that.
> 
> I stongly prefer mailinglist to "forums" or other web crap.
> Anything that makes me use the mouse gets annoyance points ;-)

I personal feel the same. The mouse is an evil device. :-D

[Github]
> > - - It does not play well with a own domain
> 
> ... but, github pages ...
> https://help.github.com/articles/custom-domain-redirects-for-github-pages-sites/

That I didn't know. Does it work with SSL too? (Not that geeqie.org is
SSL currently but when TLSA comes more used I have plans to put https
in use.)

> > - - It needs you to switch on javascript, cookies, some cross-domain-stuff
> >   and more insecure technologies.
> > - - It needs a separate account (one more (Oh, I have one but don't like
> >   it))
> 
> I still invited you into the just created Github "organisation"
> BestImageViewer, and you accepted ;-)

:-)

> I also invited zas.

That would be helpful. But I didn't hear from him since ages.

> Feel free to invite more devs,

Well, vlad... But he is also retired. And I even don't know if he have a
github account.

> > - - It is a pain in the ass to use. It takes me always ages to find a
> >   functionality like bugtracker or how to merge pull requests or even
> >   how to fork
> 
> If you agree to use it,
> git clone git://github.com/BestImageViewer/geeqie
> 
> push url is: g...@github.com:BestImageViewer/geeqie.git

Yea, I know that; after long time trying it out.

> Issue and pull request comments work good enough via email.  Both issues
> and pull requests can be dealt with via git command line as well.

I know that there _is_ a way for pull requests. (I don't know how
recently.) They are similar to gitorious but not identical and I think,
more hidden.

Another one is to create forks or simple pull requests. I do not know if
that is possible at all with git command line on github.

For Issues I do not know even that it is possible.

Such Stuff is pretty good hidden away from the user on github. There is
no single documentation (that I know) for that stuff.

> but working with various projects I learned that you can perfectly use
> github without even interacting with its web frontend most of the time.

Yea. I did some with github too. But often I come to the end to send
patches by mail to that author. That is fare more easy.

> Though I still need some time to remember the cheat sheet ;)

Would be helpful.

> > I will not be a complete show stopper for Github. But currently I seem
> > to be the only active developer and I vote strongly against it.
> > And I know that past devs also did. We agreed to not go to github.
> 
> Oh. In that case, apologies for jumping the gun there.
> If it is ok for you, I'd drive it as strict mirror repo for now.

No problem with that. Git allows to have a de central development model.
I just don't want to have unfree github as main source for geeqie.

> BTW, I did not realize the web page was already part of the geeqie repo.
> Even better.

Sure it is. Currently I do manually copy them over but this is just a
small step.

Regards
   Klaus
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Re: [Geeqie-devel] Project status

[Klaus Ethgen]

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Hi,

Am Do den 10. Mär 2016 um 11:27 schrieb DrSlony:
> I propose:
> 1. That Geeqie create a new identity for itself, that it ceases to 
> identify itself as "Image viewer forked from GQView" because that's 
> ancient history, people don't remember what GQView is, and Geeqie is 
> better than GQView. It can of course be mentioned in some "about" 
> section but it does not help attract people who are browsing the web 
> looking for a good image viewer.

Fine for me.

But I think, today most users get the image viewer from the distribution
instead of compiling it themself. So, yes, the page should be more fancy
but not focusing on the casual user to compile themself.

> 2. To help make you a new website. The idea is to keep it simple, neat 
> and modern. No CMS. Static generation using modern tools. Could you 
> provide some info on the server? Is it shared hosting or VPS? Do you 
> have shell access? Does the hosting company speak English?

Well, the server is mine. (particular it is a rent server) Currently it
run on Debian Jessie without systemd.

I have everything what need to be on the server except PHP that I refuse
to install.

I prefer static stuff but have no problem to put dynamic stuff there.

> 3. You lack a place where users can interact without having to sell a 
> kidney (mailing lists...).

Well, here I don't agree. What is so bad with registering on a mailing
list? Even without registering, you can mail to it although, from the
fact that it is on sourceforge, nobody is seing that mails. But the
concept of a mailing list allows that.

On the other hand, all that forums and asocial networks like Facebook,
twitter and others needs you to register with you feet size and such.
You always need a new account with a new password... That is selling a
kidney for me.

Best solution would be a usenet newsgroup where everyone could use
without registering. But today only few users are on usenet anymore;
sadly.

> Pat David recently rewrote GIMP's official website, and also made the
> pixls.us website which is like a mix between a tutorial place and a
> wiki-forum for developers and users of libre graphics software.

I will have a look. I never heard from "pixls.us".

What I found from a first look is some user tracking stuff in the
discuss subdomain. And from a first search I do not see a way to
contribute.

> 4. I do suggest you reconsider using GitHub, even though gitweb is 
> working for you.

Well, github has some major disadvantages:
- - It is closed source
- - It does not play well with a own domain
- - It needs you to switch on javascript, cookies, some cross-domain-stuff
  and more insecure technologies.
- - It needs a separate account (one more (Oh, I have one but don't like
  it))
- - It is a pain in the ass to use. It takes me always ages to find a
  functionality like bugtracker or how to merge pull requests or even
  how to fork
- - It is in .com like commercial domain instead of .org

Some of them are my personal view. But I don't want to pressure others
to use something that I do not like.

> Why? Because gitweb seems like a good place only for developers who
> agree to use the mailing list, but what about normal users who want to
> report a bug?

Well, see above. Normal users come via the distribution normally.

For bugs, I agree that there is no easy platform today. The problem is
two sided one.
1. Users should be able to easily open and manage bugs.
2. Devs should be able to manage and answer bugs.

The second one is as least same important than the first.

My personal view is that only debian bug tracker is good for both sides.
It provides easy way without registering to file a bug and to manage it.
There are commandline as well as web or e-mail frontends.

On the other End is bugzilla which is, in my opinion, a pain in the a...

I searched many years now for a good bugtracker solution that might be
also able to take bug reports from different sides. I think, one that
can resist inside of git would be the best. The most promising for me is
Bugwarrior[0].

> I don't even know where to report a Geeqie bug.
> https://discuss.pixls.us/c/software/geeqie would not be a bug tracker
> (users can occasionally report bugs there, as they do for RawTherapee,
> but that is not the right place).

Hmm.. That is always a problem. But I see that on many projects. (That
pixls.us stuff is one of them)

> And you can't expect normal people to sign up for a mailing list.

That is the point where we disagree. You expect normal people to sign up
on a forum/github/whatever but not on a simple mailing list where they
only need their mail address?

I do not know why you have such a strong attitude against mailinglists.
It is much simpler and easier to get in touch with like most of all that
web 2.0 stuff that needs you to sell your soul every time.

> I definitely wouldn't - the only reason I'm here is because I like
> Geeqie so much I wanted to help make it look 

Re: [Geeqie-devel] Project status

[DrSlony]

Hello

I waited a few days to see what "bounces back" and I'm pleased to see 
that you're friendly folk, that makes me want to help more.

The situations seems to be:

1. Geeqie is very much alive. That is great to hear, and a surprise to 
many, because that is not the impression one gets from visiting the 
http://www.geeqie.org/ (before it was updated yesterday).

2. You prefer to spend time fixing bugs and implementing new features 
than working on the website. That's also great, but the website is 
important, it's your business card, and it needs to shine. People can't 
be expected to dig through mind-bogglingly boring links, subscribe to 
mailing lists or to have to clone the source just to find whether things 
are moving forward and what the contact details to the developers are.

3. You don't use SourceForge because its evil, great. Then we need 
distance Geeqie from SF as we can.

4. You seem to be happy with gitweb.

I propose:
1. That Geeqie create a new identity for itself, that it ceases to 
identify itself as "Image viewer forked from GQView" because that's 
ancient history, people don't remember what GQView is, and Geeqie is 
better than GQView. It can of course be mentioned in some "about" 
section but it does not help attract people who are browsing the web 
looking for a good image viewer.

2. To help make you a new website. The idea is to keep it simple, neat 
and modern. No CMS. Static generation using modern tools. Could you 
provide some info on the server? Is it shared hosting or VPS? Do you 
have shell access? Does the hosting company speak English?

3. You lack a place where users can interact without having to sell a 
kidney (mailing lists...). Pat David recently rewrote GIMP's official 
website, and also made the pixls.us website which is like a mix between 
a tutorial place and a wiki-forum for developers and users of libre 
graphics software. I recently closed down the old RawTherapee forum and 
our users moved to Pat David's place. We share it with developers of 
other software, which is great because users are exposed to more options 
and to more wisdom from other experienced users and developers. I 
propose Geeqie agree to having your own official spot over at 
https://discuss.pixls.us/c/software That way you have the mailing list 
for developer chat, and that place for user chat. Hopefully some of you 
would visit the user place and help out with advice once in a while.

4. I do suggest you reconsider using GitHub, even though gitweb is 
working for you. Why? Because gitweb seems like a good place only for 
developers who agree to use the mailing list, but what about normal 
users who want to report a bug? I don't even know where to report a 
Geeqie bug. https://discuss.pixls.us/c/software/geeqie would not be a 
bug tracker (users can occasionally report bugs there, as they do for 
RawTherapee, but that is not the right place). And you can't expect 
normal people to sign up for a mailing list. I definitely wouldn't - the 
only reason I'm here is because I like Geeqie so much I wanted to help 
make it look alive and well, and my email didn't make it to your mailing 
list the first time I sent it before signing up. I honestly can't wait 
to sign out of the mailing list - they're a thing from the 90s. If you 
use GitHub you get to retain your commit history, you get a fast and 
well-working bug tracking facility which is tightly integrated with git 
(you can even close an issue/ticket directly though a commit, by putting 
"closes #123" in the commit message), you get a wiki, and perhaps most 
importantly you become immediately exposed to hundreds of other 
developers who will then have less "resistance" to contribute a patch or 
even just a good bug report to Geeqie. We (RawTherapee) have been 
through a number of source code management services, most recently 
google-code, and GitHub is by far the best.

Kind regards
DrSlony


On 2016-03-09 16:18, Klaus Ethgen wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA512
> 
> Am Mi den  9. Mär 2016 um 21:14 schrieb Lars Ellenberg:
>> Feel free to use it, or massage it some more.  Or not.
>>  ;-)
> 
> Thanks again. I only had to do some small massage; see [0] and [1].
> 
> Regards
>Klaus
> 
> [0]
> http://www.geeqie.org/cgi-bin/gitweb.cgi?p=geeqie.git;a=commitdiff;h=b333c04435380dfce208e795c4b148700d6faee3
> [1]
> http://www.geeqie.org/cgi-bin/gitweb.cgi?p=geeqie.git;a=commitdiff;h=cbcf4618c412e45eb3c7a9fe24fca349e9d2d583
> - --
> Klaus Ethgen  http://www.ethgen.ch/
> pub  4096R/4E20AF1C 2011-05-16   Klaus Ethgen 
> Fingerprint: 85D4 CA42 952C 949B 1753  62B3 79D0 B06F 4E20 AF1C
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