Re: [gentoo-user] [O/T] netstat security puzzle

[Tom H]

On Sun, Dec 18, 2016 at 2:26 AM, Mick  wrote:
>
> I've grep-ped the whole of /etc, no mention of "Knoppix" there.
>
> I've also looked in /var/lib/NetworkManager/dhclient-enp6s8.conf to see what
> hostname NetworkManager sends to dhclient. No trace of "Knoppix" in there
> either.
>
> What else could it be creating or overriding a Local Address with one called
> "Knoppix", rather than what was set at installation time?

I connected my laptop to a friend's wifi network using dhcp and my
laptop was renamed "Tessa's iPhone". I didn't investigate further
(except that I set up a static address) but I suspect that some dhcp
servers push out a hostname along with an ip address without checking
the requester's mac address.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Tom H]

On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 6:58 PM, Grant Edwards
 wrote:
> On 2016-12-17, Alan McKinnon  wrote:
>>
>> But the VMS I like most are the FreeBSD ones; they run good
>> old-fashioned rc.
>
> It's been a while since I ran VMS, but it had little very resemblance
> to FreeBSD[1] and the init system was nothing like it the BSD one. :)

I read "VMS" as "VMs."

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Tom H]

On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 1:20 PM, Heiko Baums  wrote:
>
> I didn't ask for a howto for installing Gentoo on a Pi, I asked for a
> howto for getting rid of systemd on recent versions of Arch Linux,
> Debian, Raspbian, Ubuntu, Fedora etc. You said it's possible and I'm
> not forced to use systemd, so I guess you know how and can explain it
> to me.

On Debian, you simply install "sysv-rc" and you're good to go because
it'll uninstall "systemd-sysv" and ensure that "/sbin/init" is
sysvinit's.

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Tom H]

On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 4:36 AM, Daniel Campbell  wrote:
> On 12/17/2016 12:53 AM, Neil Bothwick wrote:
>> On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 00:55:21 -0500, Walter Dnes wrote:
>>>
>>> Again, the average home user is being jerked around for
>>> a corporate agenda.
>>
>> Yes, it is disgusting that developers add the options desired by those
>> that pay their wages while completely ignoring the users that give them
>> nothing! It's almost like they are scratching their employer's itch while
>> ignoring yours.
>
> I get where you're coming from, but Walter's talking about a real
> concern when it comes to libre software and corporate involvement. The
> profit motive has the potential to devastate community-oriented
> operations, be they libre software, swimming pools, common areas,
> municipal Internet, or even housing efforts. That potential for damage
> should be baked into any community-based operation's decision-making
> process.

Greg KH has (IIRC) made the argument that it's the involvement of
corporations that has helped Linux grow exponentially, unlike the
BSDs. (IIRC, he attributed their involvement to the GPL, but that's a
different topic.)

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Tom H]

On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 12:55 AM, Walter Dnes  wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 02:16:27PM -0500, Rich Freeman wrote
>> On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 11:51 AM, Miroslav Rovis 
>>  wrote:


>>> It's been discussed over and over again. Lots of people are firm in
>>> their understanding that Lennart is an actor by and for the big
>>> business. Me too.
>>
>> Well, he is a Red Hat employee. Nobody really debates that.
>
> Maybe it's not intentional spyware malice, but rather that home users
> are being jerked around while Redhat re-writes linux as a corporate OS.

In what way are home users being jerked around? How many care about
the guts of their system?

I (unfortunately) manage four linux laptops for my parents and two
friends. They just want to boot thei machines and use them in the same
way that they use their iPhones and iPads - and they couldn't care
less about anything less.

There are of course people who want to change and customize their
setups (like you) and for whom the advent of and domination by
systemd's a PitA. Please don't generalize.


> Similarly, the vast majority of home users have a machine with one
> ethernet port, and in the past it's always been eth0. Now the name
> varies in each machine depending on the motherboard layout; oogabooga11?
> foobar42? It may be static, but you don't know what it'll be, without
> first booting the machine. In a truly Orwellian twist, this "feature"
> is referred to as "Predictable" Network Interface Names. It only makes
> things easier for corporate machines acting as gateways/routers, with
> multiple ports. Again, the average home user is being jerked around for
> a corporate agenda.

Do "regular" home users know the name of the NIC that they're using?!

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Alan McKinnon]

On 18/12/2016 01:58, Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2016-12-17, Alan McKinnon  wrote:
> 
>> But the VMS I like most are the FreeBSD ones; they run good
>> old-fashioned rc.
> 
> It's been a while since I ran VMS, but it had little very resemblance
> to FreeBSD[1] and the init system was nothing like it the BSD one.  :)
> 
> [1] Unless you installed DECShell, and then it looked more like v7
> than FreeBSD.
> 

See that's what happens when a poster forgets to do proof checking.

VMs, not VMS.

Good catch :-)

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckin...@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] [O/T] netstat security puzzle

[Mick]

On Friday 16 Dec 2016 19:19:11 Poison BL. wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 7:14 PM, Mick  wrote:
> > I am looking at a Mint 18 installation and noticed when running netstat
> > that
> > all tcp connections are showing not the PC name, but "Knoppix":.
> > 
> > What might be the cause of this?  The installation was performed using a
> > Mint
> > LiveCD iso.
> > --
> > Regards,
> > Mick
> 
> My first check would be /etc/hosts for an entry there. That, or lazily
> grepping all of /etc for Knoppix.
> 
> It is strange that it's not using either the hostname as given during
> setup, or an auto-generated potentially unique one, wherever it's pulling
> that from.

I've grep-ped the whole of /etc, no mention of "Knoppix" there.

I've also looked in /var/lib/NetworkManager/dhclient-enp6s8.conf to see what 
hostname NetworkManager sends to dhclient.  No trace of "Knoppix" in there 
either.

What else could it be creating or overriding a Local Address with one called 
"Knoppix", rather than what was set at installation time?

-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Daniel Campbell]

On 12/17/2016 08:58 PM, Andrej Rode wrote:
> 
>> Funtoo, knoppix and devuan are not serious professional grade distros,
>> two of those are in beta and gentoo isn't something you want on most
>> production servers.
>>
>> You can't be seriously suggesting that hobbyist distros with one or two
>> developers and bad security policies is a serious replacement for the
>> systemd corrupted distros can you?
> 
> So bascially you want to have a professinal grade distribution developed
> by independent hobbyists for free?
> Somehow distro maintainers have to be fed and live from something. So
> either you have a corporate-free hobbyist distro with a handful of devs
> or you have to suck it up and deal with it that people get paid by
> companies to develop free software (which is actually a good thing). And
> their company can give them directions how to develop free software they
> are working on.
> 
> Cheers,
> Andrej
> 

I don't think it's that clear-cut (companies paying for libre software
devs == good). Moneyed interests in something *can* be good for both
sides, if fair business is conducted. Frankly, most businesses get it
wrong, as can be expected from a profit-oriented entity.

Paying devs to work on libre software and telling them what to work on,
while mostly normal practice in the profit-driven world, can create
effects (unintended or otherwise) that guide other software; especially
if a business is employing a developer working on pivotal, important
projects. A business's direction of that employee can create ripples
throughout the rest of the libre software ecosystem that other projects
may have to work around or be forced to depend on the corporate work to
continue existing. Innocent enough at first, sure. Projects become
obsolete or have to change their dependencies all the time. But if a
business is targeting specific parts of the stack, replacing it with
theirs, and urging others to depend on their new stack, it's blatantly
obvious that they're not interested in collaboration or playing fairly.
They want to own the stack and every mechanism in it. For what ends, I
have no clue. Possibly to peddle their stack as the *only* stack to
clients so they can rake in more business while the libre software world
gets stuck maintaining it. In short, it's a form of crowd-sourcing labor
that they wouldn't otherwise pay for. And the average programmer will
fall for it because it makes them feel important and, like the rest of
us, has this pesky need for a home, food, and enough cash to save away
for emergencies and/or retirement.

I agree with your opinion otherwise. It's not reasonable to expect
volunteers to be available, on-call, and alert to news 24-7; that's the
level of commitment you need to be a serious security worker, and nobody
has the spare funds to sit around and stay up to date on stuff without a
paycheck coming in.

I'm reluctant to point to them, but sports may have a good idea with
sponsorships. Some people in libre software could be sponsored, and some
companies could sponsor someone in a hands-off fashion, just letting the
developer do their thing while the dev does support, consulting, or
maybe patches for the company for their internal projects. That's a
relationship that could work, though just like any other monetization
scheme, it's prone to abuse from the money holder. Maybe CS curricula
should have Contract Law 101 or something to protect them from being
fleeced or manipulated.

The next best model is public sponsorship through platforms like Flattr,
Gittip, Patreon, and so on. It gives the developer full autonomy, but a
less dependable cash flow.

Giving talks and publishing books has been super successful for a few
people, but naturally takes up a lot of time and can be draining.

Business models aside, the only real fix for this is to get to a
post-industrial and post-labor world, where people aren't forced to work
to survive. There's no telling how long that will take, however, as
those with money naturally want to maintain their powerful position in
society. That change won't come peacefully, and unfortunately probably
not in our lifetimes.


-- 
Daniel Campbell - Gentoo Developer
OpenPGP Key: 0x1EA055D6 @ hkp://keys.gnupg.net
fpr: AE03 9064 AE00 053C 270C  1DE4 6F7A 9091 1EA0 55D6



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Re: [gentoo-user] Reading the (SSL) traffic with Pale Moon, WAS: from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA? Youtube... Audio: No

[Walter Dnes]

> How come people are so little interested to read the traffic, to learn
> how sites behave which they visit, and often to discover what sites
> really do to them?
> 
> I'll go and inquire at the Pale Moon forum about the issues above, and
> will post there this exact question above, I think.

  This is a very obscure topic.  Maybe nobody who knows about it read
that post.  I only read 3 sub-forums...

* Announcements... for new versions, etc
* Pale Moon for Linux... because I run the linux version
* Contributed builds... I do an SSE-only contributed 32-bit build.  It
  is useful for older Pentium 3 class machines, which will not run the
  regular Pale Moon build.

  I couldn't find anything about NSS logging on Google... except your
question.  I followed the instructions in your post here, and that's how
I got it to work.  I did not know about it until you told me.

> Wait... Did you need to patch the nss library to get the $SSLKEYLOGFILE
> being written to? Like in this bug:
> 
> >=dev-libs/nss-3.24 - Add USE flag to enable SSL key logging
> https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=587116
> 
> Did you? (That's about the only patch there, that I submitted to
> Bugzilla anywhere ;-) btw.)

  No patches required to the source code for that.  I do my own custom
manual build, to eliminate the dependancy on dbus, plus other tweaks.
That involves setting options in the mozconfig file, but no source code
changes.  If you want to do your own build, see my post on December 9th
https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?f=37=13898=20#p100625
Note; this is version 2 of my build environment.  You should see an
attached file "pmmain.tgz" on that post.  Do not use version 1, with
(utils.tgz) in the first post of that thread.

-- 
Walter Dnes 
I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications

[gentoo-user] Reading the (SSL) traffic with Pale Moon, WAS: from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA? Youtube... Audio: No

[Miroslav Rovis]

On 161217-20:56-0500, Walter Dnes wrote:
>   I'm running Pale Moon.  In an xterm, I did...
> 
> export SSLKEYLOGFILE=/dev/shm/sslkeylogfile.txt
> 
> ...and launched Pale Moon manually from the commandline. nd visited a
> couple of https sites.  I did get /dev/shm/sslkeylogfile.txt which
> begins with the line...
> 
> # SSL/TLS secrets log file, generated by NSS
> 
>   Following that are a bunch of lines starting with...
> 
> CLIENT_RANDOM
> 
> ...followed by a space, followed by 161 random hex-numeric characters
> i.e. [0-9a-f].
> 
>   I also saw a line beginning with...
> 
> RSA
> 
> ...followed by a space, followed by 113 random hex-numeric characters
> i.e. [0-9a-f].

The very usual and familiar text that I take all --really all-- the
time. Ever since I was pwned:
System attacked, Konqueror went on window-popping spree!
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-905472.html
(
Ah, and my Vimeo videos are back; not the Youtube ones, and it happened
relatively recently that my vimeo videos are back, linked from that
five, 5, years old topic on Gentoo Forums, as I informed here when they
too were removed:
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-905472-start-25.html#7881412

Plus, no way for me to update the Forums, since some people, like one of
the Site Admins there, really don't like me:
Was I really hijacking topics from other members?
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-1041614.html
Ctrl-F "your account has been banned.", currently still the very last
line, date was: "Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 3:14 am"
)

[Ever since I was pwned], I inquired a lot about this capabilitiy, and
some btwn 1 and 2 years ago I learned that since some times 2013 or
around there (so I was just around 2 years late from the beeding edge
development), Wireshark can read what Firefox SSL-keys captures, and
since then I capture SSL-keys all the time time.

>   If you plan to do this regularly, your program launcher will need to
> launch bash scripts with seperate filenames for each profile.  Maybe
> append date-time stamp to filenames to avoid multiple sessions
> overwriting each other.
In Firefox, you just need very little settings on the outside, :
https://wiki.wireshark.org/SSL
> 
>   As for privacy, there are the usual features, like...
> 
> * asking sites to not track (don't trust that)
> * control of which sites to accept/refuse regular cookies, and 3rd-party
>   cookies, from
> * whether or not to clear browsing and download history
> * private browsing session
I think some of the suggested extensions/addons here:
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Tor
(sadly) use Australis I currently have eff-https everywhere,
RequestPolicy-continued, Privacy Badger, NoScript and Agent Spoofer.
Some of them, I read (but don't remember which ones), use Australis...

But...
> -- 
> Walter Dnes 
> I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications
> 
...But thanks, why was this so hard to tell... See there in the Pale
Moon forums, nobody replied (yet)...

How come people are so little interested to read the traffic?

I have all kinds of traces posted (
far from expert talk, but still
useful stuff in somebody wants to learn to read the traffic of his own:
http://www.croatiafidelis.hr/foss/cap/
)...

How come people are so little interested to read the traffic, to learn
how sites behave which they visit, and often to discover what sites
really do to them?

I'll go and inquire at the Pale Moon forum about the issues above, and
will post there this exact question above, I think.

Also, if this is really true, the Wireshark SSL wiki (the link above)
needs to be updated...

And more, wait...

Wait... Did you need to patch the nss library to get the $SSLKEYLOGFILE
being written to? Like in this bug:

>=dev-libs/nss-3.24 - Add USE flag to enable SSL key logging
https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=587116

Did you? (That's about the only patch there, that I submitted to
Bugzilla anywhere ;-) btw.)

I'm puzzled... And overwhelmed with work, because I must now find time
to install and set Pale Moon to the (SSL) traffic (and I'm really a slow
worker).

(Still half-disbelieving... so surprised I am.)
-- 
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr


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Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Andrej Rode]

> Funtoo, knoppix and devuan are not serious professional grade distros,
> two of those are in beta and gentoo isn't something you want on most
> production servers.
> 
> You can't be seriously suggesting that hobbyist distros with one or two
> developers and bad security policies is a serious replacement for the
> systemd corrupted distros can you?

So bascially you want to have a professinal grade distribution developed
by independent hobbyists for free?
Somehow distro maintainers have to be fed and live from something. So
either you have a corporate-free hobbyist distro with a handful of devs
or you have to suck it up and deal with it that people get paid by
companies to develop free software (which is actually a good thing). And
their company can give them directions how to develop free software they
are working on.

Cheers,
Andrej



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Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Andrej Rode]

> Because compiling takes quite a lot of time and power. Of course that
> may depend on how and how often you use your computer. Proably doesn't
> such a difference if your computer is running 24/7 anyway.

And why are you compiling your software on a low-power embedded
platform? That's the point where you are doing it wrong. I'll bet power
consumption with Gentoo is even better because you don't have all
features enabled.

If you install OSes compile software for embedded stuff usually you
should compile your stuff somewhere else. Gentoo even provides a
framework for it with BINHOST stuff.

Cheers,
Andrej



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[gentoo-user] [OT] SCSII Adapter ?

[Meino . Cramer]

Hi,

I searched for this on the Web and the only one I found, which
is available, seems to be a Windows-only product (needs Windows
drivers).

May be someone on this list knows a solution:
Is there any "something"-to-SCSII-adapter, which can be used with
Linux, and which is not a "hardisk only" one?

With "something" I mean an interface, which is common on modern
PCs like USB, SATA, Firewire...

Thank you very much for any help in advance!
Cheers
Meino

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[taii...@gmx.com]

On 12/17/2016 08:56 PM, Walter Dnes wrote:


   I'm running Pale Moon.  In an xterm, I did...

export SSLKEYLOGFILE=/dev/shm/sslkeylogfile.txt

...and launched Pale Moon manually from the commandline. nd visited a
couple of https sites.  I did get /dev/shm/sslkeylogfile.txt which
begins with the line...

# SSL/TLS secrets log file, generated by NSS

   Following that are a bunch of lines starting with...

CLIENT_RANDOM

...followed by a space, followed by 161 random hex-numeric characters
i.e. [0-9a-f].

   I also saw a line beginning with...

RSA

...followed by a space, followed by 113 random hex-numeric characters
i.e. [0-9a-f].

   If you plan to do this regularly, your program launcher will need to
launch bash scripts with seperate filenames for each profile.  Maybe
append date-time stamp to filenames to avoid multiple sessions
overwriting each other.


   As for privacy, there are the usual features, like...

* asking sites to not track (don't trust that)
* control of which sites to accept/refuse regular cookies, and 3rd-party
   cookies, from
* whether or not to clear browsing and download history
* private browsing session
random - I have always wondered why none of the "user respecting" forks 
nor mozilla have any serious efforts to thwart browser fingerprinting, 
private browsing session is simply a misnomer without it.

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[taii...@gmx.com]

On 12/17/2016 04:57 PM, Marc Joliet wrote:


On Saturday 17 December 2016 19:20:03 Heiko Baums wrote:

Am 17.12.2016 um 15:58 schrieb Rich Freeman:

[...]

If you don't think the guides on how to install Gentoo on a Pi are
good enough, then play around with it until you figure it out, and
then post an article on the Wiki.

Didn't you read my e-mail? I don't want to have Gentoo on my Pi, because
this would destroy the advantage of the Pi, its low power consumption.

Well, maybe I will install Gentoo on the Pi once, just for fun, but
that's not the question here.

Looks like somebody hasn't heard of cross-compiling!  Perhaps check out sys-
devel/crossdev and/or ask on the gentoo-embedded mailing list.  In fact, in
this particular case I *will* provide you with a link:

https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Raspberry_Pi_Cross_building


I didn't ask for a howto for installing Gentoo on a Pi, I asked for a
howto for getting rid of systemd on recent versions of Arch Linux,
Debian, Raspbian, Ubuntu, Fedora etc. You said it's possible and I'm not
forced to use systemd, so I guess you know how and can explain it to me.

Aha, so it's not enough that there are distros *right now* that let you avoid
systemd (e.g., Gentoo, Funtoo, Devuan, Knoppix), it has to be one of *those
particular* distros.

[...]

Viele Grüße
Funtoo, knoppix and devuan are not serious professional grade distros, 
two of those are in beta and gentoo isn't something you want on most 
production servers.


You can't be seriously suggesting that hobbyist distros with one or two 
developers and bad security policies is a serious replacement for the 
systemd corrupted distros can you?



For some reason everyone in this thread also seems to be making this 
about sysvinit vs systemd rather than systemd vs sysvinit and openRC...

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Walter Dnes]

  I'm running Pale Moon.  In an xterm, I did...

export SSLKEYLOGFILE=/dev/shm/sslkeylogfile.txt

...and launched Pale Moon manually from the commandline. nd visited a
couple of https sites.  I did get /dev/shm/sslkeylogfile.txt which
begins with the line...

# SSL/TLS secrets log file, generated by NSS

  Following that are a bunch of lines starting with...

CLIENT_RANDOM

...followed by a space, followed by 161 random hex-numeric characters
i.e. [0-9a-f].

  I also saw a line beginning with...

RSA

...followed by a space, followed by 113 random hex-numeric characters
i.e. [0-9a-f].

  If you plan to do this regularly, your program launcher will need to
launch bash scripts with seperate filenames for each profile.  Maybe
append date-time stamp to filenames to avoid multiple sessions
overwriting each other.


  As for privacy, there are the usual features, like...

* asking sites to not track (don't trust that)
* control of which sites to accept/refuse regular cookies, and 3rd-party
  cookies, from
* whether or not to clear browsing and download history
* private browsing session

-- 
Walter Dnes 
I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Walter Dnes]

On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 11:58:45PM +, Grant Edwards wrote
> On 2016-12-17, Alan McKinnon  wrote:
> 
> > But the VMS I like most are the FreeBSD ones; they run good
> > old-fashioned rc.
> 
> It's been a while since I ran VMS, but it had little very resemblance
> to FreeBSD[1] and the init system was nothing like it the BSD one.  :)
> 
> [1] Unless you installed DECShell, and then it looked more like v7
> than FreeBSD.

  I think he was referring to more than 1 VM (i.e. Virtual Machines),
not VMS the OS.

-- 
Walter Dnes 
I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Daniel Campbell (zlg)]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On December 17, 2016 11:10:04 AM PST, Walter Dnes  wrote:
> A note; the developers have stated in the Pale Moon forum that they're
>working on getting rid of gstreamer, and having Pale Moon talk directly
>to ffmpeg and libav.  This gets rid of one layer of middleware, and the
>associated security problems.

Thanks for sharing more about Pale Moon. I thought it was Windows-exclusive and 
64-bit oriented. Good to see it's cross-platform. Do you guys still write C++?
- --
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Walter Dnes]

On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 09:51:07PM +0100, Marc Joliet wrote
> On Saturday 17 December 2016 14:10:04 Walter Dnes wrote:
> >   A note; the developers have stated in the Pale Moon forum that they're
> > working on getting rid of gstreamer, and having Pale Moon talk directly
> > to ffmpeg and libav.  This gets rid of one layer of middleware, and the
> > associated security problems.
> 
> FWIW, that's most likely because Firefox did that a few releases
> ago (I unset the gstreamer USE flag with 44.0, and AFAIK gstreamer
> support was completely removed with 46.0).

  Not "because Firefox did that", but because it's a good idea.  Yes,
Firefox sometimes makes the right choice.  While Pale Moon does not
blindly follow Firefox (e.g. Australis), gstreamer is a pain and a
security problem.  First Pale Moon had to migrate from gstreamer 0.10.x
(inherited from Firefox code) to gstreamer 1.x.  And now they have to
blacklist certain gstreamer plugins.  Enough already.

-- 
Walter Dnes 
I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Heiko Baums]

Am 18.12.2016 um 00:17 schrieb Heiko Baums:
> Btw., I hope that the Devuan people once will make a release for the Pi,
> too.

They already did.

Heiko Baums

[gentoo-user] Re: from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Grant Edwards]

On 2016-12-17, Alan McKinnon  wrote:

> But the VMS I like most are the FreeBSD ones; they run good
> old-fashioned rc.

It's been a while since I ran VMS, but it had little very resemblance
to FreeBSD[1] and the init system was nothing like it the BSD one.  :)

[1] Unless you installed DECShell, and then it looked more like v7
than FreeBSD.

-- 
Grant

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Heiko Baums]

Am 18.12.2016 um 00:23 schrieb Andrej Rode:
> For reference did you try to write an init script for a piece of
> software in SysVInit, systemd and OpenRC to be able to compare them?

Yes, at least I had to read a lot of them. And init scripts are really a
lot easier to write and read than such a systemd service file,
particularly you can separate the configuration to another file while
you need to copy the whole service file to another place in which it
won't be updated by the package manager if a new version would be released.

Heiko Baums

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Miroslav Rovis]

On 161217-00:55-0500, Walter Dnes wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 02:16:27PM -0500, Rich Freeman wrote
> > On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 11:51 AM, Miroslav Rovis 
> >  wrote:
> >
> > > It's been discussed over and over again. Lots of people are firm in
> > > their understanding that Lennart is an actor by and for the big
> > > business. Me too.
> > 
> > Well, he is a Red Hat employee.  Nobody really debates that.
> 
>   Maybe it's not intentional spyware malice, but rather that home users
> are being jerked around while Redhat re-writes linux as a corporate OS.
> 
It's as much created-by-chance spyware, as accidentally-happened spyware,
IMO, as the google android/iphone/windoze phone and others are
eavesdropper devices by chance and by accident. I.e.: not in the least.

While lots of people involved are not (plain) malicious, there is, from
analysis of the big picture, no escaping the conclusion that the
one-ring-cravers needed it, and so they planned it, just like the
aforementioned eavesdropper devices.

Even though, longer term, very very few people knew, or envisaged, say
20-30 years ago, that this Total Surveillance Age was coming.
-- 
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr


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Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Heiko Baums]

Am 17.12.2016 um 23:57 schrieb Andrej Rode:
> And why should a Gentoo based system draw more power than any other
> Linux distro?

Because compiling takes quite a lot of time and power. Of course that
may depend on how and how often you use your computer. Proably doesn't
such a difference if your computer is running 24/7 anyway.

Heiko Baums

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Heiko Baums]

Am 17.12.2016 um 23:53 schrieb Alan McKinnon:
> No, I'm not a Poetering fanboy,

Ok, then I'm sorry.

> and you seem to be seeing the world in a
> way that fits your biases.

No, I don't.

> And you really need to go back and read the thread. Of course nobody
> said Neil is offering you a solution; it is you that are demanding one
> from people that never said they would.

I'm not demanding any solution. I'm just proving that it's wrong what
those Poettering fanboys let loose.

If this would be possible, then it should be easy for them to just
explain how this can be done or provide a link to a howto. They simply
can't because it is not possible to switch from systemd to another init
system, at least not for quite a lot of distros like Debian, Raspbian,
Ubuntu etc.

So I'm not demanding a solution, I just want proof. If they claim
something then I think they should proof it. That's all.

Btw., I've never seen that Poettering and his fanboys have proven
anything they claim so far.

Heiko Baums

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Andrej Rode]

> And there's always this silly argument by these Poettering fanboys, that
> they don't force systemd onto anybody, and that's always possible to
> switch from systemd to another init system. Then this must be possible
> under - at least - almost every distro.

For sure it is possible for a distro to ship with different init system.
The thing is the maintainers would have to jump through hoops to support
all init systems and keep the init scripts and all the distro specific
handling up to date.

And for now most distribution maintainers decided that it is not worth
the hassle.

For reference did you try to write an init script for a piece of
software in SysVInit, systemd and OpenRC to be able to compare them?

Cheers,
Andrej



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Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Heiko Baums]

Am 17.12.2016 um 22:57 schrieb Marc Joliet:
> Looks like somebody hasn't heard of cross-compiling!  Perhaps check out sys-
> devel/crossdev and/or ask on the gentoo-embedded mailing list.  In fact, in 
> this particular case I *will* provide you with a link:
> 
> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Raspberry_Pi_Cross_building

Thanks, but I already know this link. Nevertheless, compiling everything
is quit power consuming and takes a lot of time. And you need another
computer for this to be done.

That said, generally speaking I love Gentoo, but I'm still not sure if I
really want it on my Pi. Maybe I'll reconsider this once.

> Aha, so it's not enough that there are distros *right now* that let you avoid 
> systemd (e.g., Gentoo, Funtoo, Devuan, Knoppix), it has to be one of *those 
> particular* distros.

You forgot Slackware.

No that's not enough, because at least Gentoo and Funtoo are not for
beginners. Well, I'm not a beginner, but I would like to have a distro
without systemd which can be used by beginners. Well, maybe Devuan will
be such a distro.

There's another reason. In my opinion there should always be a choice,
not only between the distros but between the software. And different
distros follow different goals.

And there's always this silly argument by these Poettering fanboys, that
they don't force systemd onto anybody, and that's always possible to
switch from systemd to another init system. Then this must be possible
under - at least - almost every distro.

As you can see, even the Poettering fanboys here refuse to explain how
this can be done. Obviously they don't admit that they are proven wrong
by this.

Btw., I hope that the Devuan people once will make a release for the Pi,
too.

Heiko Baums

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Andrej Rode]

> No he isn't offering a solution. He claims that nobody is forcing me to
> using systemd. Well, Gentoo isn't indeed, but the other distros are.
> 
> I just asked him for a solution. I couldn't find one so far.
> 
If you want to use Debian but want to ditch systemd people already
mentioned a couple of posts above how to do it. If you are blind in your
rage nobody can help you. I'd say you can for the latest debian with
sysvinit support and maintain your own sets of start and stop scripts
for new software. You will even have examples written for systemd. But
luckily for you somebody has already scarified time to do so. You could
also port OpenRC to Debian or any distribution which pleases you. Maybe
you even find funding to do so.
> But I guess you are also one of those Poettering fanboys when I read
> your arguments.

Not everyone who disagrees with you is a Poettering fanboy.

And why should a Gentoo based system draw more power than any other
Linux distro?

Cheers,
Andrej



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Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Alan McKinnon]

On 17/12/2016 20:22, Heiko Baums wrote:
> Am 17.12.2016 um 16:44 schrieb Alan McKinnon:
>> It's not Neil's job to solve your problems. It's your job.
>>
>> Neil isn't offering a solution to you, he's trying to guide your
>> thoughts in a direction where you can see solutions, so please stop
>> asking him (or anyone else) to find them for you.
> 
> No he isn't offering a solution. He claims that nobody is forcing me to
> using systemd. Well, Gentoo isn't indeed, but the other distros are.
> 
> I just asked him for a solution. I couldn't find one so far.
> 
> But I guess you are also one of those Poettering fanboys when I read
> your arguments.

No, I'm not a Poetering fanboy, and you seem to be seeing the world in a
way that fits your biases.

None of my Gentoo machines have systemd. One of them has pulseaudio. My
work laptop runs Mint and that has systemd because ... that's what it
comes with.

All my Ubuntu 16.04 VMs have systemd (they ship like that), the Ubuntu
14.04 VMs have upstart.

But the VMS I like most are the FreeBSD ones; they run good
old-fashioned rc.

And you really need to go back and read the thread. Of course nobody
said Neil is offering you a solution; it is you that are demanding one
from people that never said they would. And of all the stupid places to
do it, the one place almost certain to not give you what you want - on a
public mailing list! Please, grow up and stop whining. It's getting tiresom.

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckin...@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Marc Joliet]

On Saturday 17 December 2016 19:20:03 Heiko Baums wrote:
> Am 17.12.2016 um 15:58 schrieb Rich Freeman:
[...]
> > If you don't think the guides on how to install Gentoo on a Pi are
> > good enough, then play around with it until you figure it out, and
> > then post an article on the Wiki.
> 
> Didn't you read my e-mail? I don't want to have Gentoo on my Pi, because
> this would destroy the advantage of the Pi, its low power consumption.
> 
> Well, maybe I will install Gentoo on the Pi once, just for fun, but
> that's not the question here.

Looks like somebody hasn't heard of cross-compiling!  Perhaps check out sys-
devel/crossdev and/or ask on the gentoo-embedded mailing list.  In fact, in 
this particular case I *will* provide you with a link:

https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Raspberry_Pi_Cross_building

> I didn't ask for a howto for installing Gentoo on a Pi, I asked for a
> howto for getting rid of systemd on recent versions of Arch Linux,
> Debian, Raspbian, Ubuntu, Fedora etc. You said it's possible and I'm not
> forced to use systemd, so I guess you know how and can explain it to me.

Aha, so it's not enough that there are distros *right now* that let you avoid 
systemd (e.g., Gentoo, Funtoo, Devuan, Knoppix), it has to be one of *those 
particular* distros.

[...]

Viele Grüße
-- 
Marc Joliet
--
"People who think they know everything really annoy those of us who know we
don't" - Bjarne Stroustrup


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Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Marc Joliet]

On Saturday 17 December 2016 14:10:04 Walter Dnes wrote:
>   A note; the developers have stated in the Pale Moon forum that they're
> working on getting rid of gstreamer, and having Pale Moon talk directly
> to ffmpeg and libav.  This gets rid of one layer of middleware, and the
> associated security problems.

FWIW, that's most likely because Firefox did that a few releases ago (I unset 
the gstreamer USE flag with 44.0, and AFAIK gstreamer support was completely 
removed with 46.0).

Greetings
-- 
Marc Joliet
--
"People who think they know everything really annoy those of us who know we
don't" - Bjarne Stroustrup


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[gentoo-user] capabilities

[Ian Zimmerman]

On a detour from the setuid X problem, I wanted to play with Linux
capabilities.  But the simplest possible example from libcap README
fails:

root@matica ~ # getcap /bin/ping
Failed to get capabilities of file `/bin/ping' (Operation not supported)
root@matica ~ # 

Any idea what could be wrong?  It looks like the kernel code is always
built in nowadays - there is no kernel build option or loadable module
that I might have forgotten.

-- 
Please *no* private Cc: on mailing lists and newsgroups
Personal signed mail: please _encrypt_ and sign
Don't clear-text sign: http://cr.yp.to/smtp/8bitmime.html

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Walter Dnes]

On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 03:08:36AM -0500, taii...@gmx.com wrote
> What makes it better than icecat, iceweasel, foxcat, and so on?

  I don't use any of them, so I can't do a comparison.  BTW, Iceweasel
is no more https://wiki.debian.org/Iceweasel

> As of 9th of June, 2016 the package Firefox-ESR replaces Iceweasel,
> and is in Wheezy and Jessie security repositories.

  Pale Moon is an independant fork of Firefox.  It was based on Firefox
code as a starting point but is going its own way; e.g. no
Atrocious^H^H^H^H^H^H Austraulis UI.  That was what drove me away from
it.  I've always customised the menus for maximum usable screen space,
plus text (not icons) for the menu.

  I wasn't initially concerned when that version of Firefox showed up.
What shocked me was the fact that Firefox removed the ability to
customize the UI to the "classic" look.  They must've realized that
people would hate Austraulis.  Soon, the most-downloaded addons were
"classic UI restorer" addons.

  I switched to Sea Monkey for a while, and eventually to Pale Moon.

-- 
Walter Dnes 
I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Rich Freeman]

On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 1:20 PM, Heiko Baums  wrote:
>
> And the next silly argument which always comes from these Poettering
> fanboys. As if everybody is a programmer, and as if everybody who uses a
> computer and/or Linux has to be a programmer.
>

Well, beggars can't be choosers.  That's just life.  If you want
somebody else to solve your problems for you, and you have nothing to
offer in trade, then you probably should at least try being nice.

Yeah, I get that it is frustrating when nobody else wants to do it
your way.  It happens to all of us.  You'll get further in life if you
learn to work within these constraints than if you merely yell at
people when it happens.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Walter Dnes]

  A note; the developers have stated in the Pale Moon forum that they're
working on getting rid of gstreamer, and having Pale Moon talk directly
to ffmpeg and libav.  This gets rid of one layer of middleware, and the
associated security problems. 

-- 
Walter Dnes 
I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Heiko Baums]

Am 17.12.2016 um 16:44 schrieb Alan McKinnon:
> It's not Neil's job to solve your problems. It's your job.
> 
> Neil isn't offering a solution to you, he's trying to guide your
> thoughts in a direction where you can see solutions, so please stop
> asking him (or anyone else) to find them for you.

No he isn't offering a solution. He claims that nobody is forcing me to
using systemd. Well, Gentoo isn't indeed, but the other distros are.

I just asked him for a solution. I couldn't find one so far.

But I guess you are also one of those Poettering fanboys when I read
your arguments.

Heiko  Baums

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Heiko Baums]

Am 17.12.2016 um 15:58 schrieb Rich Freeman:
> Well, how much did you pay for systemd, and who did you pay it to?

And there it is. The second most stupid and second most frequently
argument of those Poettering fanboys.

You don't expect an answer to this, do you?

> And as far as how to switch to something usable goes, the last time I
> checked sysvinit was still open source.

And what? Systemd is open source, too, but is a pain in the ass.

>> So tell me, how to get rid of systemd on Arch Linux, Debian, Raspbian,
>> XBian, Ubuntu, Fedora etc. in their most recent releases.
>>
> 
> Are you willing to:
> 1. Do the work yourself?

What is that supposed to mean? I just asked you to tell me how to get
rid of systemd on those distros. If you explain it to me, I of course do
it myself.

> 2. Pay somebody else to do the work for you?

And there it is again this stupid argument.

> This really comes across as whining because a bunch of volunteers
> decided to volunteer their time building things the way they would
> prefer to build it, instead of the way you preferred that they build
> it.

And the next of those stupid arguments of those Poettering fanboys if
they are running out of "technical" arguments. But aren't the Poettering
fanboys regularly asking for "technical" arguments? Then xhy don't you
give such silly answers instead of "technical" one? And why do just
explain to me how to get rid of systemd on recent distros? A links would
probably do it, too.

> If you don't like the options out there, then make your own.

And the next silly argument which always comes from these Poettering
fanboys. As if everybody is a programmer, and as if everybody who uses a
computer and/or Linux has to be a programmer.

Still no "technical" argument. Don't you Poettering fanboys always ask
for "technical" arguments? Why again such a silly non-technical argument?

> If you don't think the guides on how to install Gentoo on a Pi are
> good enough, then play around with it until you figure it out, and
> then post an article on the Wiki.

Didn't you read my e-mail? I don't want to have Gentoo on my Pi, because
this would destroy the advantage of the Pi, its low power consumption.

Well, maybe I will install Gentoo on the Pi once, just for fun, but
that's not the question here.

I didn't ask for a howto for installing Gentoo on a Pi, I asked for a
howto for getting rid of systemd on recent versions of Arch Linux,
Debian, Raspbian, Ubuntu, Fedora etc. You said it's possible and I'm not
forced to use systemd, so I guess you know how and can explain it to me.

Btw., would have cost you not more time than writing those silly answers
that every Poettering fanboy regularly gives since the beginning.

Still nothing has changed so far.

> Look around Gentoo, or Arch, or Debian.  Everything you see is the
> result of somebody sacrificing their time to create something and make
> it free for everybody.  If something seems to be missing, it is
> because somebody didn't sacrifice their time to create it.  If you
> care strongly about something, then at some point you need to get your
> hands dirty and create the future you want to see.

Those stereotypical silly answers of the Poettering fanboys have been
boring from the beginning and still are boring.

I just asked you a simple question, about something you volunteered
information about.

You volunteered saying that it is possible to switch from systemd to
another system and that nobody is forcing anybody to using systemd.

I just asked you how I can do this. And you? You seemingly can only give
those silly, stereotypical, non-technical answers which have absolutely
nothing to do with my question and your first statement.

That's typical for those Poettering fanboys. Still nothing new.

> Complaining on a mailing list isn't going to motivate somebody to help you.

Now I'm complaining? Just twist my words so that it fits to your needs.

There's still the question: How do I get rid of systemd on the mentioned
distros? You said it is possible.

Maybe I will get an answer someday. Honestly, I believe not.

Heiko Baums

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Corbin Bird]

On 12/17/2016 09:44 AM, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On 17/12/2016 16:35, Heiko Baums wrote:
>> Am 17.12.2016 um 14:17 schrieb Neil Bothwick:
>>
>>> I'm running the Debian 7 version of Raspbian on a number of Pis, all
>>> without systemd. Yes, I am happy using systemd, but I can't be arsed
>>> changing them when they continue to work perfectly well.
>> Then explain me how this is done. Btw., Debian's and Raspbian's software
>> repositories are somewhat outdated. But that's a different Debian
>> related subject.
> It's not Neil's job to solve your problems. It's your job.
>
> Neil isn't offering a solution to you, he's trying to guide your
> thoughts in a direction where you can see solutions, so please stop
> asking him (or anyone else) to find them for you.
>
> Nobody ever guaranteed that you would have, or not have, systemd. It is
> simply there and it is what it is. Software comes and goes, but you
> always have the original promise - there is nothing in this world
> stopping you from building software the way you want it. That's what
> Stallman did - he didn't like the current landscape so did something
> about it. You have that same right.
>
> You have the right to use the code anyway you see fit. Red Hat has the
> same right, and they are only answerable to their users. Nowhere does it
> say Red Hat has to listen to you and write code for your benefit; also
> nowhere does it say that Red Hat is permitted to stop you doing whatever
> you want.
>
> So now you know what your job is, get cracking.
>
> Started coding yet?
>

Slight change of topic  Or is it back to the original topic?

FYI :
Using Palemoon compiled from the overlay,
a XonarDX sound card ( 192Khz Record/Playback, 7.1 sound capable, 8
channels ),
ALSA without either PulseAudio or apulse,
JACK not being used,
No .asoundrc being used,
I am able to watch videos and HEAR them in Palemoon.
Audio with Adobe Flash works as well.
( the caveat : mplayer is compiled / mplayer.conf adjusted / nsplugin
installed )


The trick  seems to be reading the docs for ALSA in the bundled
kernel source code docs.

1 : Make corrections to "/etc/modprobe.d/alsa.conf"
2 : list ALL modules for ALSA/OSS in "/etc/conf.d/modules" for loading.
3 : If using "media-sound/timidity++" do the same for its modules.

I hope this information helps for those who want alternatives.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Portage vs Qt

[Alan McKinnon]

On 17/12/2016 14:51, Mick wrote:
> On Saturday 17 Dec 2016 12:27:18 Kai Krakow wrote:
>> Am Wed, 14 Dec 2016 00:06:00 -0500
>>
>> schrieb Philip Webb :
>>> I just updated Qt5 to 5.6.2 & ran into a familiar Portage problem.
>>>
>>> The emerge command responds with a list of "conflicts",
>>> all involving 5.6.1 vs 5.6.2 versions of the  c 15  pkgs.
>>> The only way to get around this is to unmerge the existing pkgs via
>>> '-C', then install the new versions.  That works, but it's brute
>>> force.
>>>
>>> Portage sb able to resolve this kind of conflict for itself.
>>> If not, then at least it should advise users intelligently
>>> to do what I've just described.  It can happen with other sets of
>>> pkgs.
>>>
>>> Yes, I did do 'backtrack==30'.
>>>
>>> Before I send in a bug, does anyone else have useful comments ?
>>
>> I constantly see the same conflict and haven't nailed it down exactly
>> right now. It seems to happen when one package requires a binary
>> compatibility to an older version of a depend but can also be built
>> against the newer version. Usually, emerge should trigger a rebuild
>> then. But this doesn't seem to work when both packages (the depend and
>> the depender) are updated at the same time. Portage then pulls in the
>> old and the new version of the same package at the same time, resulting
>> in a conflict.
>>
>> Upgrading the depends with "-1a" first sometimes helps but usually I'll
>> also resolv it by unmerging the conflicting package first.
> 
> Or, I usually end up unmerging the older version and emerge then picks up the 
> latest stable version of the dependency.  I'm not saying this is the correct 
> way to do it but either of these two methods get me out of the woods 
> eventually.  
> 


It is the "correct" way, but not because it has some stamp of approval :-)

It's correct because it's the easiest way out of a tricky problem that
is really hard to solve any other way.

It's a lot like doors - removing them is not exactly what they were
built for but if you need to get a 92cm couch through a 90cm door the
only way to get that extra 2cm is to take the door off it's hinges :-)

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckin...@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Alan McKinnon]

On 17/12/2016 16:35, Heiko Baums wrote:
> Am 17.12.2016 um 14:17 schrieb Neil Bothwick:
> 
>> I'm running the Debian 7 version of Raspbian on a number of Pis, all
>> without systemd. Yes, I am happy using systemd, but I can't be arsed
>> changing them when they continue to work perfectly well.
> 
> Then explain me how this is done. Btw., Debian's and Raspbian's software
> repositories are somewhat outdated. But that's a different Debian
> related subject.

It's not Neil's job to solve your problems. It's your job.

Neil isn't offering a solution to you, he's trying to guide your
thoughts in a direction where you can see solutions, so please stop
asking him (or anyone else) to find them for you.

Nobody ever guaranteed that you would have, or not have, systemd. It is
simply there and it is what it is. Software comes and goes, but you
always have the original promise - there is nothing in this world
stopping you from building software the way you want it. That's what
Stallman did - he didn't like the current landscape so did something
about it. You have that same right.

You have the right to use the code anyway you see fit. Red Hat has the
same right, and they are only answerable to their users. Nowhere does it
say Red Hat has to listen to you and write code for your benefit; also
nowhere does it say that Red Hat is permitted to stop you doing whatever
you want.

So now you know what your job is, get cracking.

Started coding yet?

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckin...@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Rich Freeman]

On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 9:35 AM, Heiko Baums  wrote:
> Am 17.12.2016 um 14:17 schrieb Neil Bothwick:
>
>>> So tell me how I
>>> get a full refund for systemd and how to switch to something usable.
>>
>> I've answered the latter, your refund is attached :)
>
> No, you didn't.

Well, how much did you pay for systemd, and who did you pay it to?

And as far as how to switch to something usable goes, the last time I
checked sysvinit was still open source.

>
> The solution can't be to just install a totally outdated version of a
> distro from times before they started forcing systemd onto their users.
> This has to be possible with recent versions, too.
>
> So tell me, how to get rid of systemd on Arch Linux, Debian, Raspbian,
> XBian, Ubuntu, Fedora etc. in their most recent releases.
>

Are you willing to:
1. Do the work yourself?
or
2. Pay somebody else to do the work for you?

This really comes across as whining because a bunch of volunteers
decided to volunteer their time building things the way they would
prefer to build it, instead of the way you preferred that they build
it.

If you don't like the options out there, then make your own.

If you don't think the guides on how to install Gentoo on a Pi are
good enough, then play around with it until you figure it out, and
then post an article on the Wiki.

Look around Gentoo, or Arch, or Debian.  Everything you see is the
result of somebody sacrificing their time to create something and make
it free for everybody.  If something seems to be missing, it is
because somebody didn't sacrifice their time to create it.  If you
care strongly about something, then at some point you need to get your
hands dirty and create the future you want to see.

Complaining on a mailing list isn't going to motivate somebody to help you.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Heiko Baums]

Am 17.12.2016 um 14:17 schrieb Neil Bothwick:

> I'm running the Debian 7 version of Raspbian on a number of Pis, all
> without systemd. Yes, I am happy using systemd, but I can't be arsed
> changing them when they continue to work perfectly well.

Then explain me how this is done. Btw., Debian's and Raspbian's software
repositories are somewhat outdated. But that's a different Debian
related subject.

> Boot from a live CD, like Ubuntu, and read the journals. There's always
> a solution that doesn't involve flaming.

Why would I boot from a Live CD if I have a PC with an installed OS
particularly just to be able to read some simple log files?

So, no that's not a reasonable solution.

And that doesn't have anything to do with flaming. But that's typical
for those Poettering fanboys, too, since the beginning. They ask for
"technical" arguments. If "technical" arguments are given to them, then
those arguments suddenly are no technical arguments. Then this is
flaming. And Poettering and his fanboys just insult their critics, even
in the official "technical" systemd documentation.

I see, nothing has changed so far.

> When I first tried systemd, I wasn't confident of my ability to work
> with the journal, so I installed syslog-ng and had traditional log files
> alongside the journal. In fact I ran it like that for quite some because
> the log monitor I was using didn't work with the journal.

Yes, that's the solution. Install an old very well tested and useful
system logger which does the job perfectly on its own alongside of a
crappy system logger just to be able to read the binary log files again
with simple system tools which come along with EVERY distro like cat,
less, grep etc. And running two programs which have the same purpose in
the background don't need more system resources then just running one of
them, particularly on hardware like the Pi?

Did you and the other Poettering fanboys think about this logic? I guess
not.

> I don't use Firefox or semi-professional audio hardware, so I won't
> comment on this.

But that's the original subject of this thread. And PulseAudio is one of
Poettering's crap.

> With Debian, and Raspbian, just use version 7. It's Debian so it will be
> supported for years to come. Or you could run Gentoo on your Pi.

How do I compile Gentoo on the Pi? Even compiling it with distcc on
another computer would be a lot more power consuming. What's one of the
benefits of the Pi? Power-saving?

> They're not. You are assuming you have to use it because you don't see an
> alternative.

I know a lot of good alternatives to systemd. But I don't see a way to
get rid of systemd in favor of the good alternatives in the distros I
mentioned.

>> So tell me how I
>> get a full refund for systemd and how to switch to something usable.
> 
> I've answered the latter, your refund is attached :)

No, you didn't. But I guess you can't. Same again. The Poettering
fanboys deny that they are forcing their crap onto the users but can't
or don't want to say how to get rid of this crap and how to convert
their systems to something that is working well.

The solution can't be to just install a totally outdated version of a
distro from times before they started forcing systemd onto their users.
This has to be possible with recent versions, too.

So tell me, how to get rid of systemd on Arch Linux, Debian, Raspbian,
XBian, Ubuntu, Fedora etc. in their most recent releases.

Where do I get this Debian or Raspbian 7? I guess the software for those
outdated distro versions are even more outdated than the software for
the latest releases.

> I never said it was easy.

Should be easy.

Heiko Baums

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Neil Bothwick]

On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 13:35:54 +0100, Heiko Baums wrote:

> Am 17.12.2016 um 09:53 schrieb Neil Bothwick:
> > On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 00:55:21 -0500, Walter Dnes wrote:
> > 
> > Really, no one is forcing you to use anything. If you don't like the
> > way particular piece of software is going, you can get a full refund
> > and switch to something else.  
> 
> Not this argument again. It's the most stupid argument (of a lot of
> other stupid ones) which was give most frequently by Poettering and
> those Poettering fanboys from the beginning of this systemd crap until -
> seemingly - now.

So you don't have a choice?
 
> And yes, it is still crap. Unfortunately I am forced to using it,
> because there is no usable distro for the Raspberry Pi which does not
> use systemd. I again went into trouble with it, if it's only those
> crappy binary log files. It's of course not only the binary log files.

I'm running the Debian 7 version of Raspbian on a number of Pis, all
without systemd. Yes, I am happy using systemd, but I can't be arsed
changing them when they continue to work perfectly well.
 
> For some reason I couldn't boot the Pi anymore. What do you usually do
> in such a case? Right! You pull the sd card out of the Pi, mount it on
> another computer, and... bang! No log files can't be read, because they
> are binary and my Gentoo PC doesn't have systemd - for good reasons.

Boot from a live CD, like Ubuntu, and read the journals. There's always
a solution that doesn't involve flaming.
 
> Without this systemd crap, with the good old, very well tested system
> loggers I would have easily been able to read the the log files and to
> fix the problem.

When I first tried systemd, I wasn't confident of my ability to work
with the journal, so I installed syslog-ng and had traditional log files
alongside the journal. In fact I ran it like that for quite some because
the log monitor I was using didn't work with the journal.
 
> Regarding this really stupid decision of Mozilla's to only support
> PulseAudio...

> PulseAudio still doesn't work with (semi-)professional audio cards. It
> never did,

I don't use Firefox or semi-professional audio hardware, so I won't
comment on this.

> Just forgot to ask. Tell me how to easily get rid of systemd on - say -
> Arch Linux, Debian, OpenSUSE, Redhat, Fedora, Ubuntu and its
> derivatives. And how do I get rid of systemd on my Raspberry Pi?

With Debian, and Raspbian, just use version 7. It's Debian so it will be
supported for years to come. Or you could run Gentoo on your Pi.

> You said no one is forcing me to use this systemd crap.

They're not. You are assuming you have to use it because you don't see an
alternative.

> So tell me how I
> get a full refund for systemd and how to switch to something usable.

I've answered the latter, your refund is attached :)
 
> You said it's possible and easily done and I'm not forced to using it.

I never said it was easy.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

I am McCoy of Bo...Damnit! I'm a doctor, not a collective!


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Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Neil Bothwick]

On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 01:36:21 -0800, Daniel Campbell wrote:

> > Really, no one is forcing you to use anything. If you don't like the
> > way particular piece of software is going, you can get a full refund
> > and switch to something else.

> That argument doesn't really offer anything of substance in return.
> Yeah, "just use something else", until whatever entity has completely
> owned the platform. What then? Switch platforms ad nauseum?

We're not really talking about platforms. It's not like this is being
baked into the kernel.

> At some
> point, you need to take some sort of action. Talking about it is a good
> start. It helps formulate and refine ideas that can turn into real,
> tangible action. Usually it just ends in a fork; though there's nothing
> wrong with that. It's a feature, not a bug.

Taking action is good, but too many of these threads are just people
blowing off steam and result in nothing useful.

> I get where you're coming from, but Walter's talking about a real
> concern when it comes to libre software and corporate involvement. The
> profit motive has the potential to devastate community-oriented
> operations, be they libre software, swimming pools, common areas,
> municipal Internet, or even housing efforts. That potential for damage
> should be baked into any community-based operation's decision-making
> process. Sometimes a partnership can be great (like getting hosting from
> a reseller for a rebate in return for some consulting or mentoring on
> the side),

As long as the software remains libre, which is usually ensured by the
GPL, there is no requirement for the community to follow the direction of
the corporates. But it takes someone to do something tangible about it,
not just complain on a mailing list that I doubt any of the Red Hat
management read. Adding in personal accusations and insults (not that
Walter did such but other in this thread have) only serves to further
dilute any effectiveness it may have had.

> sometimes it's bad (losing license to a given piece of
> software because you wanted to improve or correct it (Linus and
> BitKeeper, for the uninitiated)))

That's a very good example, because Linus did just the right thing and
created an acceptable alternative.
 
> Just consider the source of all the 'innovations' coming down the pike,
> and ask yourself why they wrote that software. I think that's solid
> advice no matter what your opinion of corporations is.

Indeed.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

I'm firm. You're obstinate. He's a pigheaded fool.


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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Portage vs Qt

[Mick]

On Saturday 17 Dec 2016 12:27:18 Kai Krakow wrote:
> Am Wed, 14 Dec 2016 00:06:00 -0500
> 
> schrieb Philip Webb :
> > I just updated Qt5 to 5.6.2 & ran into a familiar Portage problem.
> > 
> > The emerge command responds with a list of "conflicts",
> > all involving 5.6.1 vs 5.6.2 versions of the  c 15  pkgs.
> > The only way to get around this is to unmerge the existing pkgs via
> > '-C', then install the new versions.  That works, but it's brute
> > force.
> > 
> > Portage sb able to resolve this kind of conflict for itself.
> > If not, then at least it should advise users intelligently
> > to do what I've just described.  It can happen with other sets of
> > pkgs.
> > 
> > Yes, I did do 'backtrack==30'.
> > 
> > Before I send in a bug, does anyone else have useful comments ?
> 
> I constantly see the same conflict and haven't nailed it down exactly
> right now. It seems to happen when one package requires a binary
> compatibility to an older version of a depend but can also be built
> against the newer version. Usually, emerge should trigger a rebuild
> then. But this doesn't seem to work when both packages (the depend and
> the depender) are updated at the same time. Portage then pulls in the
> old and the new version of the same package at the same time, resulting
> in a conflict.
> 
> Upgrading the depends with "-1a" first sometimes helps but usually I'll
> also resolv it by unmerging the conflicting package first.

Or, I usually end up unmerging the older version and emerge then picks up the 
latest stable version of the dependency.  I'm not saying this is the correct 
way to do it but either of these two methods get me out of the woods 
eventually.  
-- 
Regards,
Mick

signature.asc
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Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Heiko Baums]

Am 17.12.2016 um 09:53 schrieb Neil Bothwick:
> On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 00:55:21 -0500, Walter Dnes wrote:
> 
> Really, no one is forcing you to use anything. If you don't like the way
> particular piece of software is going, you can get a full refund and
> switch to something else.

Not this argument again. It's the most stupid argument (of a lot of
other stupid ones) which was give most frequently by Poettering and
those Poettering fanboys from the beginning of this systemd crap until -
seemingly - now.

And yes, it is still crap. Unfortunately I am forced to using it,
because there is no usable distro for the Raspberry Pi which does not
use systemd. I again went into trouble with it, if it's only those
crappy binary log files. It's of course not only the binary log files.

For some reason I couldn't boot the Pi anymore. What do you usually do
in such a case? Right! You pull the sd card out of the Pi, mount it on
another computer, and... bang! No log files can't be read, because they
are binary and my Gentoo PC doesn't have systemd - for good reasons.

Without this systemd crap, with the good old, very well tested system
loggers I would have easily been able to read the the log files and to
fix the problem.

Thanks systemd I had to reinstall the whole distro.

Regarding this really stupid decision of Mozilla's to only support
PulseAudio...

PulseAudio still doesn't work with (semi-)professional audio cards. It
never did, Poettering closed the corresponding bug report, blamed the
ALSA developers and claimed that their ALSA has a bug. ALSA supported
those audio cards perfectly out of the box long way before. The bug
report was reopened and I never heard anything of it anymore. I was
subscribed to this bug report.

Instead Poettering then eventually said that PulseAudio was designed
only for consumer sound cards, not for professional audio cards.

This was years ago and nothing has changed since then.

It's audio cards like M-Audio Audiophile 24/96 and RME Hammerfall I'm
talking about, btw.

So ditching native ALSA support would mean that users with such an audio
card wouldn't be able to hear any sound within Firefox.

Thanks to Lennart Poettering and their fanboys.

Just forgot to ask. Tell me how to easily get rid of systemd on - say -
Arch Linux, Debian, OpenSUSE, Redhat, Fedora, Ubuntu and its
derivatives. And how do I get rid of systemd on my Raspberry Pi?

You said no one is forcing me to use this systemd crap. So tell me how I
get a full refund for systemd and how to switch to something usable.

You said it's possible and easily done and I'm not forced to using it.
So show me. A nice little howto for the distros I mentioned would be nice.

Heiko Baums

[gentoo-user] Re: Portage vs Qt

[Kai Krakow]

Am Wed, 14 Dec 2016 00:06:00 -0500
schrieb Philip Webb :

> I just updated Qt5 to 5.6.2 & ran into a familiar Portage problem.
> 
> The emerge command responds with a list of "conflicts",
> all involving 5.6.1 vs 5.6.2 versions of the  c 15  pkgs.
> The only way to get around this is to unmerge the existing pkgs via
> '-C', then install the new versions.  That works, but it's brute
> force.
> 
> Portage sb able to resolve this kind of conflict for itself.
> If not, then at least it should advise users intelligently
> to do what I've just described.  It can happen with other sets of
> pkgs.
> 
> Yes, I did do 'backtrack==30'.
> 
> Before I send in a bug, does anyone else have useful comments ?

I constantly see the same conflict and haven't nailed it down exactly
right now. It seems to happen when one package requires a binary
compatibility to an older version of a depend but can also be built
against the newer version. Usually, emerge should trigger a rebuild
then. But this doesn't seem to work when both packages (the depend and
the depender) are updated at the same time. Portage then pulls in the
old and the new version of the same package at the same time, resulting
in a conflict.

Upgrading the depends with "-1a" first sometimes helps but usually I'll
also resolv it by unmerging the conflicting package first.

-- 
Regards,
Kai

Replies to list-only preferred.

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Daniel Campbell]

On 12/17/2016 12:53 AM, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 00:55:21 -0500, Walter Dnes wrote:
> 
>>> Well, he is a Red Hat employee.  Nobody really debates that.  
>>
>>   Maybe it's not intentional spyware malice, but rather that home users
>> are being jerked around while Redhat re-writes linux as a corporate OS.
>>
>>   Systemd does all sorts of management that isn't really required by the
>> regular home user, but Redhat doesn't give a hoot about their experience
>> being made more difficult.  Redhat only cares about their paying
>> customers.
> 
> Any non-trivial, off the shelf software does more than you need it to,
> it's the only way to be sure it does not do less than you need it to. I'd
> rather a program have ten features I don't need than be missing one that
> I do.
> 
>>   Similarly, the vast majority of home users have a machine with one
>> ethernet port, and in the past it's always been eth0.  Now the name
>> varies in each machine depending on the motherboard layout; oogabooga11?
>> foobar42?  It may be static, but you don't know what it'll be, without
>> first booting the machine.  In a truly Orwellian twist, this "feature"
>> is referred to as "Predictable" Network Interface Names.  It only makes
>> things easier for corporate machines acting as gateways/routers, with
>> multiple ports.
> 
> It wouldn't be so bad if they had provided an easy way to revert to the
> old behaviour like maybe a boot option or touching a file in /etc :(
> 
>> Again, the average home user is being jerked around for
>> a corporate agenda.
> 
> Yes, it is disgusting that developers add the options desired by those
> that pay their wages while completely ignoring the users that give them
> nothing! It's almost like they are scratching their employer's itch while
> ignoring yours.
> 
> Really, no one is forcing you to use anything. If you don't like the way
> particular piece of software is going, you can get a full refund and
> switch to something else.
> 
> 
That argument doesn't really offer anything of substance in return.
Yeah, "just use something else", until whatever entity has completely
owned the platform. What then? Switch platforms ad nauseum? At some
point, you need to take some sort of action. Talking about it is a good
start. It helps formulate and refine ideas that can turn into real,
tangible action. Usually it just ends in a fork; though there's nothing
wrong with that. It's a feature, not a bug.

I get where you're coming from, but Walter's talking about a real
concern when it comes to libre software and corporate involvement. The
profit motive has the potential to devastate community-oriented
operations, be they libre software, swimming pools, common areas,
municipal Internet, or even housing efforts. That potential for damage
should be baked into any community-based operation's decision-making
process. Sometimes a partnership can be great (like getting hosting from
a reseller for a rebate in return for some consulting or mentoring on
the side), sometimes it's bad (losing license to a given piece of
software because you wanted to improve or correct it (Linus and
BitKeeper, for the uninitiated)))

Just consider the source of all the 'innovations' coming down the pike,
and ask yourself why they wrote that software. I think that's solid
advice no matter what your opinion of corporations is.
-- 
Daniel Campbell - Gentoo Developer
OpenPGP Key: 0x1EA055D6 @ hkp://keys.gnupg.net
fpr: AE03 9064 AE00 053C 270C  1DE4 6F7A 9091 1EA0 55D6



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Re: [gentoo-user] [O/T] netstat security puzzle

[Mick]

On Friday 16 Dec 2016 19:19:11 Poison BL. wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 7:14 PM, Mick  wrote:
> > I am looking at a Mint 18 installation and noticed when running netstat
> > that
> > all tcp connections are showing not the PC name, but "Knoppix":.
> > 
> > What might be the cause of this?  The installation was performed using a
> > Mint
> > LiveCD iso.
> > --
> > Regards,
> > Mick
> 
> My first check would be /etc/hosts for an entry there. That, or lazily
> grepping all of /etc for Knoppix.
> 
> It is strange that it's not using either the hostname as given during
> setup, or an auto-generated potentially unique one, wherever it's pulling
> that from.

Yes, I the same thoughts but due to time pressure I only grep-ped the whole of 
/etc.  I didn't find anything.  I'll have another look when I get access to 
this machine again.

-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Neil Bothwick]

On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 00:55:21 -0500, Walter Dnes wrote:

> > Well, he is a Red Hat employee.  Nobody really debates that.  
> 
>   Maybe it's not intentional spyware malice, but rather that home users
> are being jerked around while Redhat re-writes linux as a corporate OS.
> 
>   Systemd does all sorts of management that isn't really required by the
> regular home user, but Redhat doesn't give a hoot about their experience
> being made more difficult.  Redhat only cares about their paying
> customers.

Any non-trivial, off the shelf software does more than you need it to,
it's the only way to be sure it does not do less than you need it to. I'd
rather a program have ten features I don't need than be missing one that
I do.

>   Similarly, the vast majority of home users have a machine with one
> ethernet port, and in the past it's always been eth0.  Now the name
> varies in each machine depending on the motherboard layout; oogabooga11?
> foobar42?  It may be static, but you don't know what it'll be, without
> first booting the machine.  In a truly Orwellian twist, this "feature"
> is referred to as "Predictable" Network Interface Names.  It only makes
> things easier for corporate machines acting as gateways/routers, with
> multiple ports.

It wouldn't be so bad if they had provided an easy way to revert to the
old behaviour like maybe a boot option or touching a file in /etc :(

> Again, the average home user is being jerked around for
> a corporate agenda.

Yes, it is disgusting that developers add the options desired by those
that pay their wages while completely ignoring the users that give them
nothing! It's almost like they are scratching their employer's itch while
ignoring yours.

Really, no one is forcing you to use anything. If you don't like the way
particular piece of software is going, you can get a full refund and
switch to something else.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

If ignorance is bliss, you must be orgasmic.


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Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[taii...@gmx.com]

What makes it better than icecat, iceweasel, foxcat, and so on?

On 12/17/2016 12:59 AM, Walter Dnes wrote:

On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 11:27:08PM +0100, Miroslav Rovis wrote


There, the few sentences, but the topic really is serious, will
Firefox, from Firefox52, in my machine, and in people who don't want
Pulseaudio, like I don't want it, be silent really from Firefox52,
as some Mozilla devs of a ...particular kind, promised, repeatedly
on that Mozilla bug page.

   An alternative to Firefox is Pale Moon, http://linux.palemoon.org/
Disclosure... I'm involved as a volunteer with the Pale Moon project.