Re: [gentoo-user] alsa not working with hda intel sound card

[Lee]

And have you checked that nothing is muted in alsamixer?

Lee 

On Thu, Nov 9, 2023, 1:57 PM John Covici  wrote:

> Yep, the card is listed as the first one.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Lee 
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 9, 2023 4:53 PM
> *To:* gentoo-user 
> *Subject:* Re: [gentoo-user] alsa not working with hda intel sound card
>
>
>
> OP: Are the cards listed in 'aplay -l' ?
>
> Lee 
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 9, 2023, 8:49 AM Todd Goodman  wrote:
>
>
> On 11/8/2023 5:10 PM, John Covici wrote:
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Michael Orlitzky 
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2023 4:32 PM
> > To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
> > Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] alsa not working with hda intel sound card
> >
> > On Wed, 2023-11-08 at 14:53 -0500, John Covici wrote:
> >> Hi all.
> >>
> >> I have run into a problem, where I am getting no sound out of the jack
> >> on my sound card.  I think this happened since the last major reboot
> >> after my world update.
> > The last time I did this to myself, it was by disabling all of the
> > codecs in the kernel. Search for CONFIG_SND_HDA_CODEC and make sure
> > they're enabled?
> >
> > Yep, all there.  I may try with older kernel and see if that makes a
> difference, but I suspect alsa.
>
>
> FWIW, I lost sound on one machine when I moved to the 6.x kernel series.
>
> I only did a little bit of debugging off and on and never got it back.
>
> It was an Intel HDA.
>
> Booting a 5.x kernel had sound.
>
> I always figured it was a kernel config issue but I did have the codec
> enabled and everything else I checked.
>
> Todd
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

Re: [gentoo-user] alsa not working with hda intel sound card

[Lee]

OP: Are the cards listed in 'aplay -l' ?

Lee 

On Thu, Nov 9, 2023, 8:49 AM Todd Goodman  wrote:

>
> On 11/8/2023 5:10 PM, John Covici wrote:
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Michael Orlitzky 
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2023 4:32 PM
> > To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
> > Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] alsa not working with hda intel sound card
> >
> > On Wed, 2023-11-08 at 14:53 -0500, John Covici wrote:
> >> Hi all.
> >>
> >> I have run into a problem, where I am getting no sound out of the jack
> >> on my sound card.  I think this happened since the last major reboot
> >> after my world update.
> > The last time I did this to myself, it was by disabling all of the
> > codecs in the kernel. Search for CONFIG_SND_HDA_CODEC and make sure
> > they're enabled?
> >
> > Yep, all there.  I may try with older kernel and see if that makes a
> difference, but I suspect alsa.
>
>
> FWIW, I lost sound on one machine when I moved to the 6.x kernel series.
>
> I only did a little bit of debugging off and on and never got it back.
>
> It was an Intel HDA.
>
> Booting a 5.x kernel had sound.
>
> I always figured it was a kernel config issue but I did have the codec
> enabled and everything else I checked.
>
> Todd
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

Re: [gentoo-user] 6.1.53-gentoo-r1 kernel not booting

[Lee]

I found this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Gentoo/comments/168qrbx/gentoosources_6146_kernel_reports_io_error/


Lee 

On Mon, Oct 2, 2023, 12:14 AM Valmor F. de Almeida 
wrote:

>
>
> On 10/1/23 20:29, Håkon Alstadheim wrote:
> >
> > Den 01.10.2023 21:31, skrev Frank Steinmetzger:
> >> Am Sat, Sep 30, 2023 at 11:25:46PM +0200 schrieb Håkon Alstadheim:
> >>> Den 30.09.2023 22:57, skrev Valmor F. de Almeida:
> >>>> Hello,
> >>>>
> >>>> For a while now (3 weeks or so) I have been upgrading the linux kernel
> >>>> on a Dell XPS laptop starting from 6.1.41-gentoo (which is my current
> >>>> working kernel) to 6.1.53-gentoo-r1. No kernel I have built since is
> >>>> able to boot. I have been following the same method for many years:
> >>>> make
> >>>> oldconfig, etc...
> >>>>
> >>>> The booting error starts at:
> >>>>
> >>>> [snip]
> >>>>
> >>>> * INIT: Entering runlevel: 3
> >>>> [snip]
> >>>> * Starting cronie ...
> >>>> * Starting DHCP Client Daemon ...
> >>>> * Starting laptop_mode ...
> >>>> * Mounting network filesystems ...
> >>>> /etc/init.d/netmount: line 45 /lib/rc/bin/ewend: Input/output error
> >>>> /lib/rc/sh/rc-cgroup.sh: line 184: rmdir: command not found
> >>>> INIT:
> >>>> INIT: cannot execute "/sbin/agetty"
> >>>> INIT: cannot execute "/sbin/agetty"
> >>>> INIT: cannot execute "/sbin/agetty"
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> Can you show /etc/fstab and the console-log for the entire boot?
> >>> Seems /sbin
> >>> is not readable. You sure you have the kernel modules loaded? Are you
> >>> using
> >>> an initramfs? If so, does that build without errors ?
> >> The input/output error – to me – indicates a hardware problem. When you
> >> mounted the FS by hand, can you read ewend? For instance with md5sum.
> >>
> > except it boots ok with older kernels. When you've eliminated the
> > impossible, whatever remains, however improbable has to be a kernel
> > config change (missing or erroneous and unintended) , or
> > initramfs failing to build/install correctly. Check error output from
> > your kernel build.
> >
>
> Right it boots with 6.1.41. I started again from the config of 6.1.41
> and unset SRSO:
>
> ->  diff linux/.config /boot/config-6.1.41-gentoo
> 3c3
> < # Linux/x86 6.1.53-gentoo-r1 Kernel Configuration
> ---
>  > # Linux/x86 6.1.41-gentoo Kernel Configuration
> 5c5
> < CONFIG_CC_VERSION_TEXT="gcc (Gentoo 13.2.1_p20230826 p7) 13.2.1 20230826"
> ---
>  > CONFIG_CC_VERSION_TEXT="gcc (Gentoo 12.3.1_p20230526 p2) 12.3.1
> 20230526"
> 7c7
> < CONFIG_GCC_VERSION=130201
> ---
>  > CONFIG_GCC_VERSION=120301
> 455d454
> < # CONFIG_CPU_SRSO is not set
> 457d455
> < # CONFIG_GDS_FORCE_MITIGATION is not set
> 646d643
> < CONFIG_ARCH_HAS_CPU_FINALIZE_INIT=y
> 3136d3132
> < CONFIG_VIDEO_V4L2_SUBDEV_API=y
> 3139,3140d3134
> < CONFIG_V4L2_FWNODE=m
> < CONFIG_V4L2_ASYNC=m
> 3236c3230,3233
> < CONFIG_VIDEO_CAMERA_SENSOR=y
> ---
>  >
>  > #
>  > # Camera sensor devices
>  > #
> 3295a3293
>  > # end of Camera sensor devices
>
> Still no luck; kernel build has no errors. Boot hangs.
> Thanks for the replies. Maybe 6.2 will not have this problem for my system.
> --
> Valmor
>
>

Re: [gentoo-user] 6.1.53-gentoo-r1 kernel not booting

[Lee]

I found this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Gentoo/comments/168qrbx/gentoosources_6146_kernel_reports_io_error/


Lee 

On Sun, Oct 1, 2023, 7:56 PM Håkon Alstadheim 
wrote:

>
> Den 01.10.2023 21:31, skrev Frank Steinmetzger:
> > Am Sat, Sep 30, 2023 at 11:25:46PM +0200 schrieb Håkon Alstadheim:
> >> Den 30.09.2023 22:57, skrev Valmor F. de Almeida:
> >>> Hello,
> >>>
> >>> For a while now (3 weeks or so) I have been upgrading the linux kernel
> >>> on a Dell XPS laptop starting from 6.1.41-gentoo (which is my current
> >>> working kernel) to 6.1.53-gentoo-r1. No kernel I have built since is
> >>> able to boot. I have been following the same method for many years:
> make
> >>> oldconfig, etc...
> >>>
> >>> The booting error starts at:
> >>>
> >>> [snip]
> >>>
> >>> * INIT: Entering runlevel: 3
> >>> [snip]
> >>> * Starting cronie ...
> >>> * Starting DHCP Client Daemon ...
> >>> * Starting laptop_mode ...
> >>> * Mounting network filesystems ...
> >>> /etc/init.d/netmount: line 45 /lib/rc/bin/ewend: Input/output error
> >>> /lib/rc/sh/rc-cgroup.sh: line 184: rmdir: command not found
> >>> INIT:
> >>> INIT: cannot execute "/sbin/agetty"
> >>> INIT: cannot execute "/sbin/agetty"
> >>> INIT: cannot execute "/sbin/agetty"
> >>>
> >>>
> >> Can you show /etc/fstab and the console-log for the entire boot? Seems
> /sbin
> >> is not readable. You sure you have the kernel modules loaded? Are you
> using
> >> an initramfs? If so, does that build without errors ?
> > The input/output error – to me – indicates a hardware problem. When you
> > mounted the FS by hand, can you read ewend? For instance with md5sum.
> >
> except it boots ok with older kernels. When you've eliminated the
> impossible, whatever remains, however improbable has to be a kernel
> config change (missing or erroneous and unintended) , or
> initramfs failing to build/install correctly. Check error output from
> your kernel build.
>
>

Re: [gentoo-user] 6.1.53-gentoo-r1 kernel not booting

[Lee K]

On Mon, Oct 02, 2023 at 02:29:05AM +0200, Håkon Alstadheim wrote:
> 
> Den 01.10.2023 21:31, skrev Frank Steinmetzger:
> > Am Sat, Sep 30, 2023 at 11:25:46PM +0200 schrieb Håkon Alstadheim:
> >> Den 30.09.2023 22:57, skrev Valmor F. de Almeida:
> >>> Hello,
> >>>
> >>> For a while now (3 weeks or so) I have been upgrading the linux kernel
> >>> on a Dell XPS laptop starting from 6.1.41-gentoo (which is my current
> >>> working kernel) to 6.1.53-gentoo-r1. No kernel I have built since is
> >>> able to boot. I have been following the same method for many years: make
> >>> oldconfig, etc...
> >>>
> >>> The booting error starts at:
> >>>
> >>> [snip]
> >>>
> >>> * INIT: Entering runlevel: 3
> >>> [snip]
> >>> * Starting cronie ...
> >>> * Starting DHCP Client Daemon ...
> >>> * Starting laptop_mode ...
> >>> * Mounting network filesystems ...
> >>> /etc/init.d/netmount: line 45 /lib/rc/bin/ewend: Input/output error
> >>> /lib/rc/sh/rc-cgroup.sh: line 184: rmdir: command not found
> >>> INIT:
> >>> INIT: cannot execute "/sbin/agetty"
> >>> INIT: cannot execute "/sbin/agetty"
> >>> INIT: cannot execute "/sbin/agetty"
> >>>
> >>>
> >> Can you show /etc/fstab and the console-log for the entire boot? Seems 
> >> /sbin
> >> is not readable. You sure you have the kernel modules loaded? Are you using
> >> an initramfs? If so, does that build without errors ?
> > The input/output error – to me – indicates a hardware problem. When you
> > mounted the FS by hand, can you read ewend? For instance with md5sum.
> >
> except it boots ok with older kernels. When you've eliminated the 
> impossible, whatever remains, however improbable has to be a kernel 
> config change (missing or erroneous and unintended) , or 
> initramfs failing to build/install correctly. Check error output from 
> your kernel build.
> 

I found this: 

https://www.reddit.com/r/Gentoo/comments/168qrbx/gentoosources_6146_kernel_reports_io_error/

-- 
Lee

Re: [gentoo-user] trying to get sd card reader to work

[Lee]

Modern kernels support damn near everything these days, the trick is
finding the right things to enable in the kernel! 

Lee 

On Fri, Jun 9, 2023, 7:58 AM John Blinka  wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Jun 9, 2023 at 9:09 AM Michael  wrote:
>
>>
>> Have you also enabled CONFIG_MMC_REALTEK_USB in your kernel?
>
>
> Not until you suggested it. Works perfectly now. Thanks!
>
> John
>
>>

Re: [gentoo-user] using Wifi in a new machine : progress

[Lee K]

On Thu, Jun 01, 2023 at 11:09:50PM -0400, Philip Webb wrote:
> Thanks for all the help so far.
> 
> I've solved the firmware problem.
> The needed files weren't in the latest stable version of  linux-firmware
> nor in the masked version (after much hassle unmasking it),
> but they are in both System Rescue + Mint /lib/firmware/mediatek .
> They are versions  7922  and  7961  with corresponding RAM_CODE files.
> 
> I copied them into the new machine in the same-named dir, 'unxz' them
> & after reboot 'dmesg' announced that it had loaded  7961 
> & 'ip a' showed a 4th interface 'wlp5s0'.  So far, so good.
> 
> What is still not good is that that interface has "NO-CARRIER".
> Also, 'rc-status' after a reboot shows  wpa_supplicant  as STOPPED.
> 
> 'rc-service -v wpa_supplicant start' gets it STARTED,
> but 'ip a' still shows "NO-CARRIER".
> I tried 'ip link set wlp5s0 carrier on',
> but was told "operation not supported".
> 
> w_s seems to be finding its conf file
> at  /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf ,
> but 'wpa_cli' continues to say "can't link to wpa_supplicant".
> 
> I have checked the service name + password are correct in the conf file.
> 
> It's approaching supper time & I've run out of ideas for today anyway.
> 
> Any further advice is most welcome (smile).
> 
> -- 
> ,,
> SUPPORT ___//___,   Philip Webb
> ELECTRIC   /] [] [] [] [] []|   Cities Centre, University of Toronto
> TRANSIT`-O--O---'   purslowatchassdotutorontodotca
> 
> 

I don't know if you've already done so, but if not, can you post the
contents of wpa_supplicant.conf..?

-- 
Lee

Re: [gentoo-user] updating /boot directory EFI

[Lee]

Never mix Windows with real OS's if you can avoid it. I have separate
machine for Windows.

Lee 

On Mon, Apr 17, 2023, 1:41 PM Wols Lists  wrote:

> On 17/04/2023 17:52, Mark Knecht wrote:
> > Later on a Kubuntu update found Windows, updated the EFI
> > stuff on the Windows drive and then, I see this morning,
> > erased everything out of the Kubuntu EFI partition but
> > left the partition there.
>
> I had a similar problem trying to install SUSE to dual boot a laptop. I
> made the mistake of letting Windows wipe the disk and install itself,
> with the result I was left with a tiny EFI partition. I couldn't install
> linux because there was no room.
>
> My latest attempt (when I get gentoo video working) will be to *add*
> Windows to a working system.
>
> Cheers,
> Wol
>
>

Re: [gentoo-user] Can some config files be automatically protected from etc-update?

[Lee]

Really, etc update has a facility for skipping whatever files you want.

Lee 

On Mon, Apr 17, 2023, 12:28 PM Mark Knecht  wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, Apr 17, 2023 at 11:26 AM Walter Dnes 
> wrote:
> >
> >   Now that the (no)multilib problem in my latest update has been solved,
> > I have a somewhat minor complaint.  Can I get etc-update to skip certain
> > files?  My latest emerge world wanted to "update"...
> >
> > 1) /etc/hosts (1)
> > 2) /etc/inittab (1)
> > 3) /etc/mtab (1)
> > 4) /etc/conf.d/consolefont (1)
> > 5) /etc/conf.d/hwclock (1)
> > 6) /etc/default/grub (1)
> > 7) /etc/ssh/sshd_config (1)
> >
> > ...hosts is critical for networking.  consolefont allows me tp use the
> > true text console with a readable font, etc, etc.  I have my reasons
> > for making certain settings, and keeping them that way.
> >
> In my experience with all distros I go outside the distro for this
> sort of issue. Put a copy somewhere, white a little script that
> does a diff on the files you feel are important enough and run
> a cron job hourly that looks for any differences.
>
> HTH,
> Mark
>

Re: [gentoo-user] updating /boot directory EFI

[Lee K]

Also, learn how to boot a kernel from the grub cli, and keep a printed
version of these instructions in a handy place. This has saved my butt
countless times. :)

-- 
Lee

Re: [gentoo-user] Fwd: Installing: Boot partition: /boot or /boot/efi ?

[Lee K]

On Fri, Mar 31, 2023 at 02:08:47PM -0700, Alan E. Davis wrote:
> Hello:
> 
> It's time to try running Gentoo again, after over a decade.
> 
> I have gone through, I think, the steps, using the Gentoo LiveCD as a
> launchpad.
> 
> Installing and configuring Grub has presented a little confusion, regarding
> the correct boot partition.  I have other GNU/Linux installs on this
> machine; for all of them, I've fallen into the practice of setting up grub
> in /boot/efi.  However, the Gentoo Handbook does not mention this approach,
> so I tried using just "/boot".  As it turned out, when I
> rebooted---thinking all steps had been completed---the Gentoo system does
> not appear in the Grub Menu.
> 
> I have found that manjaro's grub setup has been good at picking up any
> other installs, and, once a particular one has been booted, manjaro's grub
> defaults to that other install.  Thinking that even if grub is not working,
> perhaps Manjaro would see Gentoo, I tried that.
> 
> So far, no luck.  I am planning to try to mount the boot partition to
> /boot/efi, now, and see what happens.
> 
> Any problems with this?
> 
> Thank you,

It should indeed pick it up, if you have properly built your kernel and it
is in the /boot directory. Have you tried running grub-mkconfig manually on
your manjaro distro?


-- 
Lee

Re: [gentoo-user] Playing .wav files?

[Lee]

Doesnt cmus play wav files?

Lee 

On Thu, Dec 1, 2022, 10:57 AM Mark Knecht  wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Dec 1, 2022 at 10:28 AM Peter Humphrey 
> wrote:
> >
> > Hello list,
> >
> > What do you use to play .wav files? I've come across a collection which
> I'd
> > like to be able to play, but I can't find a usable player in Gentoo.
> Media-
> > sound/wavplay doesn't do it.
> >
> > --
> > Regards,
> > Peter.
> >
>
> VLC
>

Re: [gentoo-user] I915 mobile firmware

[Lee]

And lsusb, lspci,..(I think they're both readily available)

Lee 

On Tue, Nov 15, 2022, 3:53 PM William Kenworthy  wrote:

> Install lshw - might give more info.
>
> Boot off of an install, ubuntu, sysrescue or other live USB and
> investigate dmesg.
>
> BillK
>
>
> On 16/11/22 00:59, Peter Humphrey wrote:
> > Hello list,
> >
> > My new laptop shows this from /proc/cpuinfo:
> >
> > --->8
> > processor   : 0
> > vendor_id   : GenuineIntel
> > cpu family  : 6
> > model   : 154
> > model name  : 12th Gen Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-12700H
> > stepping: 3
> > microcode   : 0x421
> > --->8
> >
> > I've been hunting around to find which modules I need to load from
> sys-kernel/
> > linux-firmware, and it isn't at all clear.
> >
> > Some sources say that the processor is a mobile complement to Alder Lake
> 11th
> > gen, but I also see it as just Tiger Lake. The web seems full of helpful
> > information, but not quite helpful enough for me.:-(
> >
>
>

Re: [gentoo-user] qbittorrent crashes after to many files open error

[Lee]

Divine punishment perhaps?

Lee 

On Wed, Sep 7, 2022, 10:26 PM Dale  wrote:

> Howdy,
>
> As some know, I discovered torrentting a while back.  It has caused
> issues ever since.  LOL  I recently upgraded qbittorrent.  Other than
> having to limit some speed settings since it would make my desktop
> response slow, it has worked OK, better than ktorrent at least.  Then a
> couple days ago, perhaps related to a upgrade, it would crash.  In the
> notifications I would find a error like below.  I have changed the names
> to protect the innocent.  ;-)
>
> An I/O error occurred for torrent 'ABCDEF'.
> Reason: ABCDEF file_open (/home/dale/Desktop/Videos/ABCDEF error: Too
> many open files
>
>
> I did a google search and found out more info which lead me to this
> eventually:
>
>
> https://www.tecmint.com/increase-set-open-file-limits-in-linux/
>
> Then this:
>
> root@fireball / # sysctl fs.file-max
> fs.file-max = 3289952
> root@fireball / # sysctl -w fs.file-max=32899520
> fs.file-max = 32899520
> root@fireball / # cat /proc/sys/fs/file-max
> 32899520
>
>
> So, I increased the limit on open files by a factor of ten, I added a
> zero on the end.  It was easy enough and didn't require a calculator or
> other fancy maths.  Question is, is this a better fix or could it just
> be qbittorrent itself having issues?  Could there be more to this or
> something else causing this error?
>
> I was using qbittorrent-4.4.5 but downgraded to qbittorrent-4.4.4.  I'm
> hoping one or the other will fix this crashing issue.  It did only start
> after the upgrade but could be a coincidence to I guess.
>
>
> By the way, the 10TB drive I bought a couple weeks or so ago, well, this
> is it now.
>
> /dev/mapper/10tb   9.1T  8.7T  345G  97% /mnt/10tb
>
>
> The 14TB is supposed to be here this weekend.  I have really got to
> create a solution to this.  My current plan, make the 14TB my backup
> drive.  Put the 10TB in my rig, for now.  It's getting full too.  ROFL
> I could cut off the internet I guess.  ROFLMBO
>
>
> Thoughts on the files open error?  Qbittorrent crashing?  Anyone else
> ran into this before?  Proper solution?  Better solution?
>
>
> Dale
>
> :-)  :-)
>
>
>

Re: [gentoo-user] Getting printer working, the road of Pain.

[Lee]

Who needs to go to the hassle maintaining a printer of their own, buying
cartridges, paper etc? I set up an online account at my neighborhood
Kinkos, and I just upload whatever docs I need and they print out in HD
whatever I need for pennies a page. Ymmv.

Lee 

On Thu, Sep 8, 2022, 11:05 AM tastytea  wrote:

> On 2022-09-08 12:52-0400 Alan Grimes  wrote:
>
> > […]
> >
> > Right now linux is so broken that the CUPS web interface will deny
> > all attempts to administer the printer and reject any password. The
> > config file is written in moonspeak, I just need the motherfucking
> > thing to say yes when I tell it to do a thing. I expect it to take
> > 2-3 days just to get over this hurdle.
>
> I solved this problem by replacing the contents of every 
> block with:
>
>   Order allow,deny
>   Allow localhost
>   Allow from fd69:0:0:0:*
>   Allow from 192.168.69.*
>
> > How can people actually go around installing linux on people's
> > computers as if they were doing them a favor when it really is this
> > bad?
>
> It's not bad at all if you use a distribution with a better default
> configuration, pre-installed drivers and a pre-installed GUI for setting
> up the automatically detected printer in less than 5 clicks.
> Unless you have a printer from a shitty company, of course.
>
>

Re: [gentoo-user] --sync

[Lee]

Given the speed improvement in using git for --sync, I wonder why that
isn't the default in the portage section of the manual

On Sun, Jul 31, 2022 at 4:49 PM Peter Humphrey 
wrote:

> On Sunday, 31 July 2022 21:43:12 BST Neil Bothwick wrote:
>
> > I switched to using git for syncing, from github, and haven't looked
> > back. It is *much* faster, several times faster syncing from github than
> > using rsync to sync from a local mirror, and github is always there.
>
> One thing to note, if you do change to git syncing, is that you'll have to
> delete your entire portage tree: 'rm -r /var/db/repos/portage'. That may
> seem
> like a bad idea if you're having sync problems, but it isn't really. After
> that, the sync will take just seconds, as Neil said.
>
> You'll never look back.
>
> --
> Regards,
> Peter.
>
>
>
>
>

-- 
Lee 

Re: [gentoo-user] --sync

[Lee]

Had a similar issue to the OP, and it turned out to be a flaky internet
connection. I switched ISP's and, while sync's still take longer than I'd
like, I don't have the failures, time outs I did before.

On Sun, Jul 31, 2022 at 1:54 PM Stefan Schmiedl  wrote:

> Sonntag, 31. Juli 2022 21:51:
>
>
>
> I've been running gentoo for years now, and every time I go to --sync,
> it's really a painful process.
>
>
> The process can take *very* [long] before you find out if it succeeded or
> not.
>
> ...
>
>
> It can take several hours before it finally works
>
>
>
> Use a tool like atop to get some info about the throughput
>
> of your network connection. Something like "ss -ntp" might
>
> show interesting info about the state of the connection
>
> between your machine and the server, too.
>
>
>
> You might have problems with DNS name resolution or your
>
> box patiently trying to establish an IPv6 connection when
>
> your internet connection is IPv4 only.
>
>
>
> But switching to git, like Neil said, does make things faster.
>
>
>
> FWIW, my config file reads like this:
>
>
>
> # cat /etc/portage/repos.conf/gentoo.conf
>
> [DEFAULT]
>
> main-repo = gentoo
>
>
> [gentoo]
>
> location = /var/db/repos/gentoo
>
> sync-type = git
>
> sync-uri = https://github.com/gentoo-mirror/gentoo.git
>
> auto-sync = yes
>
> sync-git-verify-commit-signature = yes
>
> sync-openpgp-key-path = /usr/share/openpgp-keys/gentoo-release.asc
>
>
>
> good luck,
>
> s.
>
>
> It seems like a time-out problem.  Or maybe a memory problem ... In any
> case, it doesn't seem like it ought to be difficult to at least know
> what the problem is.
>
>
> Or?
>
>
>
>
>
>

-- 
Lee 

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Boot has no space left.

[Lee]

The OP should read the section of the Gentoo manual on kernel install to
learn what files are installed where. Yea, but just rm the kernels and
initramfs's from /boot and you're golden. FWIW, I usually only upgrade my
kernel when it's a major revision.

On Thu, Jun 30, 2022 at 12:39 PM Wols Lists 
wrote:

> On 30/06/2022 19:23, Michael wrote:
> > On Thursday, 30 June 2022 19:15:33 BST Guillermo wrote:
> >> Hello,
> >>
> >> I still have the same problem, but the command worked fine.
> > The command "emerge -a --depclean" will only remove uninstall the kernel
> > packages, but will not remove files from/usr/src/, or old kernel images
> and
> > files from/boot/.
>
> As far as I'm aware, depclean only installs files it installed, so it
> leaves quite a lot of garbage lying around from kernels, including the
> /usr/src/kernel-xx-xx-xx directory and various files involved in making
> your kernel, that you've modified.
>
> Cheers,
> Wol
>
>

-- 
Lee 

Re: [gentoo-user] applications cannot access anything on youtube

[Lee]

Have you checked the contents of /etc/resolv.conf? Everything look OK?

On Sun, Mar 6, 2022 at 4:28 AM John Covici  wrote:

> On Sun, 06 Mar 2022 06:18:33 -0500,
> Wols Lists wrote:
> >
> > On 06/03/2022 09:39, John Covici wrote:
> > > Hi.  On my gentoo box, no application including ping can access
> > > www.youtube.com.  However, a dig is doing it correctly, so I can not
> > > understand what is happening.  A restart of named, gives me the same
> > > result.  This is very baffling to me.  If I change the URL to just
> > > youtube.com, it tries to work till the redirect to www.youtube.com and
> > > then stops dead.
> > >
> > > Am I doing something wrong?  My windows box is doing this correctly.
> > >
> > > Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
> > >
> > cat /etc/hosts?
> >
> > I'm sure you'd remember if you'd messed about with it, but a
> > redirect there would explain it ...
>
> No joy there, it looks like anything on the web under youtube
> redirects to www.youtube.com, what I can't figure out is even if I
> ping it, it says name or service not known, but dig sees it.
>
> --
> Your life is like a penny.  You're going to lose it.  The question is:
> How do
> you spend it?
>
>  John Covici wb2una
>  cov...@ccs.covici.com
>
>

-- 
Lee 

Re: [gentoo-user] OT: whats a good laptop for gentoo these days?

[Lee K]

On Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 12:59:09AM +0100, Marco Rebhan wrote:
> Take a look at the Framework laptop if you value repairability and 
> customizability! I don't have one myself (yet, it's going to be my next 
> laptop though), but there seems to be great Linux support and an active 
> Linux support community.
> https://frame.work/blog/linux-on-the-framework-laptop
> 
> -Marco


I've had a good experience with AVADirect. They also have very good online
reviews. They will tell you if a particular laptop is compatible with linux,
and will even install Ubuntu if you request. They use mainly rebranded
Clevo's (made in Taiwan I believe).

Re: [gentoo-user] What is the difference between emerge's --changed-deps=y and @changed-deps?

[Lee K]

On Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 01:59:13AM +0100, Morgan Wesström wrote:
> On a freshly updated system (emerge -uDN @world):
> 
> "emerge @changed-deps" wants to reinstall 0 packages.
> 
> "emerge -u --changed-deps=y" wants to reinstall 24 packages.
> 
> "emerge -uD --changed-deps=y" wants to reinstall 181 packages.
> 
> A couple of years ago there was a build breakage in Portage because, as I 
> understood it at the time, some developer changed the dependencies in an 
> existing ebuild without bumping its revision level. The solution was to use 
> --changed-deps=y to catch these occurrences and I've been using it in my 
> regular update routine since then. But as you can see in the third example 
> above, it usually wants to reinstall hundreds of packages that doesn't have 
> any 
> updated versions and I'm wondering if this is working as intended. I have a 
> hard time believing that gentoo devs are pushing changes to existing ebuilds 
> in 
> such numbers on a regular basis without bumping the revision level.
> 
> Some time ago I became aware that Portage now has a @changed-deps set, which 
> I 
> assumed was accomplishing the same thing, but it doesn't produce the same 
> result as --changed-deps=y - usually just a dozen reinstalls or so.
> 
> Can someone please elaborate on what's going on here, what the difference is 
> between --changed-deps=y and @changed-deps, if that difference is intended 
> and 
> what the recommended update procedure is these days to catch these and other 
> kinds of inconsistencies in Portage?
> 
> Regards
> Morgan

Don't know if it's relevant or not but recently upstream deprecated the
"KERNEL" USE flag, resulting in many rebuilds for packages.

[gentoo-user]

[jaeyoung lee]

unsubscribe--
Only freebsd openbsd gentoo-linux windows2008

Re: [gentoo-user] Coming up with a password that is very strong.

[Lee Clagett]

On Sun, 3 Feb 2019 23:47:35 -0600
Dale  wrote:

> Howdy,
> 
[...snip...]
> 
> How do you, especially those who admin systems that are always being
> hacked at, generate strong passwords that meet the above?  I've
> googled and found some ideas but if I use the same method, well, how
> many others are using that same method, if you know what I
> mean.  ;-)  Just looking for ideas. 

Search for diceware. Memorizing 7-10 word passwords is possible and
fairly strong.

Lee

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: replacement for ftp?

[lee]

Kai Krakow <hurikha...@gmail.com> writes:

> Am Sun, 14 May 2017 01:25:24 +0100
> schrieb lee <l...@yagibdah.de>:
>
>> "Poison BL." <poiso...@gmail.com> writes:
>> 
>> > On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 9:11 PM, lee <l...@yagibdah.de> wrote:  
>> >>
>> >> "Poison BL." <poiso...@gmail.com> writes:  
>>  [...]  
>> > trust  
>>  [...]  
>> >>
>> >> Why not?  (12GB are nowhere close to half a petabyte ...)  
>> >
>> > Ah... I completely misread that "or over 50k files in 12GB" as 50k
>> > files *at* 12GB each... which works out to 0.6 PB, incidentally.
>> >  
>> >> The data would come in from suppliers.  There isn't really anything
>> >> going on atm but fetching data once a month which can be like
>> >> 100MB or 12GB or more.  That's because ppl don't use ftp ...  
>> >
>> > Really, if you're pulling it in from third party suppliers, you
>> > tend to be tied to what they offer as a method of pulling it from
>> > them (or them pushing it out to you), unless you're in the unique
>> > position to dictate the decision for them.  
>> 
>> They need to use ftp to deliver the data, we need to use ftp to get
>> the data.  I don't want that any other way.
>> 
>> The problem is that the ones supposed to deliver data are incompetent
>> and don't want to use ftp because it's too complicated.  So what's the
>> better solution?
>
> Use an edge router appliance with proper VPN support.

That's what I'm doing, and it doesn't make VPN easy.  I guess that lies
in the nature of VPN.

> You are from Germany? I can recommend Securepoint appliances. You pay
> for the hardware and support, they support you with setting everything
> up. You can also find a distributor who can install this for
> you. Securepoint works with competent partners all around Germany.

That would probably cost a lot of money, and external support always
involves significant delays.  I'll just have to learn it myself.

> There's also other alternatives like Watchguard (but their OpenVPN
> support is not that good), and a lot of free router/firewall softwares
> you can deploy to semi-professional equipment by firmware replacement.
> But at least with the latter option, you're mostly on your own and need
> to invest a lot of effort to make it work properly and secure.

Yes, that would make it much more complicated than it needs to be.

> Depending on what data is transferred, you should also take into
> account if your solution is certificated to transfer such data. E.g.
> medical data may only be transferred through properly certificated VPN
> appliances. Otherwise, you should fall back to sneakernet. I'm not sure
> how that is any more secure but that's how things are.

Interesting, who certifies such appliances?  What if I, as a patient, do
not want my data transferred that way, and how do I know if they didn't
make a mistake when certifying the equipment?

It's not medical data, and nobody in Germany actually cares about
protecting peoples data anyway.  The little that is being done towards
that is nothing but pretense.


-- 
"Didn't work" is an error.

Re: [gentoo-user] replacement for ftp?

[lee]

Alan McKinnon <alan.mckin...@gmail.com> writes:

> On 03/05/2017 22:04, lee wrote:
>> Alan McKinnon <alan.mckin...@gmail.com> writes:
>> 
>>> On 30/04/2017 03:11, lee wrote:
>>>> "Poison BL." <poiso...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 3:24 PM, lee <l...@yagibdah.de> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Mick <michaelkintz...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tuesday 25 Apr 2017 16:45:37 Alan McKinnon wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 25/04/2017 16:29, lee wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> since the usage of FTP seems to be declining, what is a replacement
>>>>>>>>> which is at least as good as FTP?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm aware that there's webdav, but that's very awkward to use and
>>>>>>>>> missing features.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why not stick with ftp?
>>>>>>>> Or, put another way, why do you feel you need to use something else?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There's always dropbox
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Invariably all web hosting ISPs offer ftp(s) for file upload/download.
>>>>>> If you
>>>>>>> pay a bit more you should be able to get ssh/scp/sftp too.  Indeed, many
>>>>>> ISPs
>>>>>>> throw in scp/sftp access as part of their basic package.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Webdav(s) offers the same basic upload/download functionality, so I am
>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> sure what you find awkward about it, although I'd rather use lftp
>>>>>> instead of
>>>>>>> cadaver any day. ;-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As Alan mentioned, with JavaScript'ed web pages these days there are 
>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>> webapp'ed ISP offerings like Dropbox and friends.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What is the use case you have in mind?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> transferring large amounts of data and automatization in processing at
>>>>>> least some of it, without involving a 3rd party
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Large amounts" can be "small" like 100MB --- or over 50k files in 12GB,
>>>>>> or even more.  The mirror feature of lftp is extremely useful for such
>>>>>> things.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wouldn't ever want having to mess around with web pages to figure out
>>>>>> how to do this.  Ftp is plain and simple.  So you see why I'm explicitly
>>>>>> asking for a replacement which is at least as good as ftp.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> "Didn't work" is an error.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Half petabyte datasets aren't really something I'd personally *ever* trust
>>>>> ftp with in the first place.
>>>>
>>>> Why not?  (12GB are nowhere close to half a petabyte ...)
>>>>
>>>>> That said, it depends entirely on the network
>>>>> you're working with. Are you pushing this data in/out of the network your
>>>>> machines live in, or are you working primarily internally? If internal,
>>>>> what're the network side capabilities you have? Since you're likely 
>>>>> already
>>>>> using something on the order of CEPH or Gluster to back the datasets where
>>>>> they sit, just working with it all across network from that storage would
>>>>> be my first instinct.
>>>>
>>>> The data would come in from suppliers.  There isn't really anything
>>>> going on atm but fetching data once a month which can be like 100MB or
>>>> 12GB or more.  That's because ppl don't use ftp ...
>>>
>>> I have the opposite experience.
>>> I have the devil's own time trying to convince people to NOT use ftp for
>>> anything and everything under the sun that even remotely resembles
>>> getting data from A to B...
>> 
>> I guess you're lucky then.
>> 
>>> (especially things that are best done over a
>>> message bus)
>> 
>> Why would anyone t

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: replacement for ftp?

[lee]

Kai Krakow <hurikha...@gmail.com> writes:

> Am Sun, 14 May 2017 01:28:55 +0100
> schrieb lee <l...@yagibdah.de>:
>
>> Kai Krakow <hurikha...@gmail.com> writes:
>> 
>> > Am Sat, 29 Apr 2017 22:02:51 -0400
>> > schrieb "Walter Dnes" <waltd...@waltdnes.org>:
>> >  
>> >>   Then there's always "sneakernet".  To quote Andrew Tanenbaum from
>> >> 1981
>> >>   
>>  [...]  
>> >
>> > Hehe, with the improvements in internet connections nowadays, we
>> > almost stopped transferring backups via sneakernet. Calculating the
>> > transfer speed of the internet connection vs. the speed calculating
>> > miles per hour, internet almost always won lately. :-)
>> >
>> > Most internet connections are faster than even USB sticks these
>> > days.  
>> 
>> Wow, you must be living in some sort of paradise.  Here, internet is
>> more like being cut off from the rest of the world.
>> 
>> But then, there's a manufacturer that makes incredibly slow USB sticks
>> which I won't buy anymore ...
>
> Okay, it really depends. I shouldn't say "most"... ;-)

Intenso --- pretty cheap, but awfully slow; however, it does
work. Better don't buy anything they make unless your time is entirely
worthless to you.

> I compared my really crappy (but most reliable yet) old USB stick to my
> internet connection. My USB stick doesn't do 48 MByte/s, more like 5-10.
> And don't even ask when writing data.

5--10MB/s?  How do you get that much?

> Even my rusty hard disk (read: not SSD) has a hard time writing away a
> big download with constantly high download rate.

It must be really old then, about 20 years.

> But I guess that a good internet connection should be at least 50 MBit
> these days.

I'd say 100, but see above.  The advantage is that you have sufficient
bandwidth to do several things at the same time.  I've never seen fast
internet.

> And most USB sticks are really crappy at writing. That also counts when
> you do not transfer the file via network. Of course, most DSL
> connections have crappy upload speed, too. Only lately, Telekom offers
> 40 MBit upload connections in Germany.

They offer 384kbit/s downstream and deliver 365.  It's almost
symmetrical, yet almost unusable.

They also offer 50Mbit and deliver between 2 and 12, and upstream is
awfully low.  Tell them you could pay for 16 instead of 50 because you
don't get even that much, and they will tell you that you would get even
less than you do now.  That is unacceptable.

And try to get a static IP so you could really use your connection ...

> I'm currently on a 400/25 MBit link and can saturate the link only with
> proper servers like the Steam network which can deliver 48 MByte/s.

You must be sitting in a data center and be very lucky to have that.


-- 
"Didn't work" is an error.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: replacement for ftp?

[lee]

Kai Krakow <hurikha...@gmail.com> writes:

> Am Sun, 14 May 2017 02:18:56 +0100
> schrieb lee <l...@yagibdah.de>:
>
>> Kai Krakow <hurikha...@gmail.com> writes:
>> 
>> > Am Sat, 29 Apr 2017 20:02:57 +0100
>> > schrieb lee <l...@yagibdah.de>:
>> >  
>> >> Alan McKinnon <alan.mckin...@gmail.com> writes:
>> >>   
>>  [...]  
>>  [...]  
>>  [...]  
>> >> 
>> >> The intended users are incompetent, hence it is too difficult to
>> >> use ...  
>> >
>> > If you incompetent users are using Windows: Have you ever tried
>> > entering ftp://u...@yoursite.tld in the explorer directory input
>> > bar?  
>> 
>> I tried at work and it said something like that the service cannot be
>> accessed.
>> 
>> 
>> > [...]
>> > Debian is not the king to rule the internet. You shouldn't care when
>> > they shut down their FTP services. It doesn't matter to the rest of
>> > the world using the internet.  
>> 
>> Who can say what their influence actually is?  Imagine Debian going
>> away, and all the distributions depending on them as well because they
>> loose their packet sources, then what remains?  It is already rather
>> difficult to find a usable distribution, and what might the effect on
>> upstream sources be.
>
> The difference is: They only shut down a service. They are not
> vanishing from the internet. You cannot conclude from that, they are:
>
> (a) shutting down all their service
> (b) ftp is deprecated and nobody should use it any longer
>
> And I didn't write that you shouldn't care if Debian vanishes. I only
> said it shouldn't mean anything to you if they shut down their FTP
> services for probably good reasons. It's not the end of life, the
> universe, and everything. And you can keep your towel.
>
> What I wanted to say: Debian is not that important that everyone will
> shut down FTP now and kill FTP support from client software. That
> simply won't happen. That is not what it means when Debian is shutting
> down a service.

I didn't say that Debian is vanishing, only that I doubt that they are
without influence and that their influence might easily be
underestimated.


-- 
"Didn't work" is an error.

Re: [gentoo-user] Pseudo first impressions

[lee]

Daniel Frey <djqf...@gmail.com> writes:

> On 04/29/2017 06:23 PM, lee wrote:
>> Daniel Frey <djqf...@gmail.com> writes:
>>> Do a --depclean and that will resolve itself.
>> 
>> Last time I tried that, it wanted to remove the source of the kernel I'm
>> using, along with other things.  It would have made sense if I had
>> upgraded the kernel, too, but I didn't have the time to do that yet.
>> 
>> 
>
> It will only remove things that it deems not needed. Usually these are
> packages that have just been upgraded.

Yes, the sources wouldn't be needed if I had upgraded the kernel.  Still
one might expect it to figure out which kernel is in use and to not try
to delete it --- that would make some sense.

> For kernel sources, tell portage to not remove it:
>
> `emerge --noreplace sys-kernel/gentoo-sources:4.4.52`
>
> as an example.
>
> If you do that, --depclean will not remove the sources for 4.4.52 (as an
> example.)

Thanks, I couldn't find an option like this.

It worked --- now some time when I do upgrade the kernel, I somehow need
to remove these sources from the world list, I guess ...


-- 
"Didn't work" is an error.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: replacement for ftp?

[lee]

Kai Krakow <hurikha...@gmail.com> writes:

> Am Sat, 29 Apr 2017 20:38:24 +0100
> schrieb lee <l...@yagibdah.de>:
>
>> Kai Krakow <hurikha...@gmail.com> writes:
>> 
>> > Am Tue, 25 Apr 2017 15:29:18 +0100
>> > schrieb lee <l...@yagibdah.de>:
>> >  
>> >> since the usage of FTP seems to be declining, what is a replacement
>> >> which is at least as good as FTP?
>> >> 
>> >> I'm aware that there's webdav, but that's very awkward to use and
>> >> missing features.  
>> >
>> > If you want to sync files between two sites, try rsync. It is
>> > supported through ssh also. Plus, it's very fast also.  
>> 
>> Yes, I'm using it mostly for backups/copies.
>> 
>> The problem is that ftp is ideal for the purpose, yet users find it
>> too difficult to use, and nobody uses it.  So there must be something
>> else as good or better which is easier to use and which ppl do use.
>
> Well, I don't see how FTP is declining, except that it is unencrypted.
> You can still use FTP with TLS handshaking, most sites should support
> it these days but almost none forces correct certificates because it is
> usually implemented wrong on the server side (by giving you
> ftp.yourdomain.tld as the hostname instead of ftp.hostingprovider.tld
> which the TLS cert has been issued for). That makes it rather pointless
> to use. In linux, lftp is one of the few FTP clients supporting TLS
> out-of-the-box by default, plus it forces correct certificates.

These certificates are a very stupid thing.  They are utterly
complicated, you have to self-sign them which produces warnings, and
they require to have the host name within them as if the host wasn't
known by several different names.

> But I found FTP being extra slow on small files, that's why I suggested
> to use rsync instead. That means, where you could use sftp (ssh+ftp),
> you can usually also use ssh+rsync which is faster.

That requires shell access.

What do you consider "small files"?  I haven't observed a slowdown like
that, but I haven't been looking for it, either.

> There's also the mirror command in lftp, which can be pretty fast, too,
> on incremental updates but still much slower than rsync.
>
>> I don't see how they would transfer files without ftp when ftp is the
>> ideal solution.
>
> You simply don't. FTP is still there and used. If you see something
> like "sftp" (ssh+ftp, not ftp+ssl which I would refer to as ftps), this
> is usually only ftp wrapped into ssh for security reasons. It just
> using ftp through a tunnel, but to the core it's the ftp protocol. In
> the end, it's not much different to scp, as ftp is really just only a
> special shell with some special commands to setup a file transfer
> channel that's not prone to interact with terminal escape sequences in
> whatever way those may be implemented, something that e.g. rzsz needs
> to work around.
>
> In the early BBS days, where you couldn't establish a second transfer
> channel like FTP does it using TCP, you had to send special escape
> sequences to put the terminal into file transfer mode, and then send
> the file. By that time, you used rzsz from the remote shell to initiate
> a file transfer. This is more the idea of how scp implements a file
> transfer behind the scenes.

IIRC, I used xmodem or something like that back then, and rzsz never
worked.

> FTP also added some nice features like site-to-site transfers where the
> data endpoints both are on remote sites, and your local site only is
> the control channel. This directly transfers data from one remote site
> to another without going through your local connection (which may be
> slow due to the dial-up nature of most customer internet connections).

Interesting, I didn't know that.  How do you do that?

> Also, FTP is able to stream multiple files in a single connection for
> transferring many small files, by using tar as the transport protocol,
> thus reducing the overhead of establishing a new connection per file.
> Apparently, I know only few clients that support that, and even fewer
> servers which that would with.
>
> FTP can be pretty powerful, as you see. It's just victim of its poor
> implementation in most FTP clients that makes you feel it's mostly
> declined. If wrapped into a more secure tunnel (TLS, ssh), FTP is still
> a very good choice for transferring files, tho not the most efficient.
> Depending on your use case, you get away much better using more
> efficient protocols like rsync.

So there isn't a better solution than ftp.  That's good to know because
I can say there isn't a better solution, and if ppl don't want to use
it, they can send emails or DVDs.


-- 
"Didn't work" is an error.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: replacement for ftp?

[lee]

Kai Krakow  writes:

> Am Sat, 29 Apr 2017 22:02:51 -0400
> schrieb "Walter Dnes" :
>
>>   Then there's always "sneakernet".  To quote Andrew Tanenbaum from
>> 1981
>> 
>> > Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes
>> > hurtling down the highway.  
>
> Hehe, with the improvements in internet connections nowadays, we
> almost stopped transferring backups via sneakernet. Calculating the
> transfer speed of the internet connection vs. the speed calculating
> miles per hour, internet almost always won lately. :-)
>
> Most internet connections are faster than even USB sticks these days.

Wow, you must be living in some sort of paradise.  Here, internet is
more like being cut off from the rest of the world.

But then, there's a manufacturer that makes incredibly slow USB sticks
which I won't buy anymore ...


-- 
"Didn't work" is an error.

Re: [gentoo-user] replacement for ftp?

[lee]

Alan McKinnon <alan.mckin...@gmail.com> writes:

> On 30/04/2017 03:11, lee wrote:
>> "Poison BL." <poiso...@gmail.com> writes:
>> 
>>> On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 3:24 PM, lee <l...@yagibdah.de> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Mick <michaelkintz...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On Tuesday 25 Apr 2017 16:45:37 Alan McKinnon wrote:
>>>>>> On 25/04/2017 16:29, lee wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> since the usage of FTP seems to be declining, what is a replacement
>>>>>>> which is at least as good as FTP?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm aware that there's webdav, but that's very awkward to use and
>>>>>>> missing features.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why not stick with ftp?
>>>>>> Or, put another way, why do you feel you need to use something else?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There's always dropbox
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Invariably all web hosting ISPs offer ftp(s) for file upload/download.
>>>> If you
>>>>> pay a bit more you should be able to get ssh/scp/sftp too.  Indeed, many
>>>> ISPs
>>>>> throw in scp/sftp access as part of their basic package.
>>>>>
>>>>> Webdav(s) offers the same basic upload/download functionality, so I am
>>>> not
>>>>> sure what you find awkward about it, although I'd rather use lftp
>>>> instead of
>>>>> cadaver any day. ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>> As Alan mentioned, with JavaScript'ed web pages these days there are many
>>>>> webapp'ed ISP offerings like Dropbox and friends.
>>>>>
>>>>> What is the use case you have in mind?
>>>>
>>>> transferring large amounts of data and automatization in processing at
>>>> least some of it, without involving a 3rd party
>>>>
>>>> "Large amounts" can be "small" like 100MB --- or over 50k files in 12GB,
>>>> or even more.  The mirror feature of lftp is extremely useful for such
>>>> things.
>>>>
>>>> I wouldn't ever want having to mess around with web pages to figure out
>>>> how to do this.  Ftp is plain and simple.  So you see why I'm explicitly
>>>> asking for a replacement which is at least as good as ftp.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> "Didn't work" is an error.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Half petabyte datasets aren't really something I'd personally *ever* trust
>>> ftp with in the first place.
>> 
>> Why not?  (12GB are nowhere close to half a petabyte ...)
>> 
>>> That said, it depends entirely on the network
>>> you're working with. Are you pushing this data in/out of the network your
>>> machines live in, or are you working primarily internally? If internal,
>>> what're the network side capabilities you have? Since you're likely already
>>> using something on the order of CEPH or Gluster to back the datasets where
>>> they sit, just working with it all across network from that storage would
>>> be my first instinct.
>> 
>> The data would come in from suppliers.  There isn't really anything
>> going on atm but fetching data once a month which can be like 100MB or
>> 12GB or more.  That's because ppl don't use ftp ...
>
> I have the opposite experience.
> I have the devil's own time trying to convince people to NOT use ftp for
> anything and everything under the sun that even remotely resembles
> getting data from A to B...

I guess you're lucky then.

> (especially things that are best done over a
> message bus)

Why would anyone try to transfer data over a message bus?  Doesn't that
require extra wiring and specialized hardware?

> I'm still not understanding why you are asking your questions. What you
> describe looks like the ideal case for ftp:

it is

Still nobody uses it, and apparently ftp usage is generally declining,
so I would expect there to be a better alternative.

>
> - supplier pushes a file or files somewhere
> - you fetch those files later at a suitable time
>
> it looks like a classic producer/consumer scenario and ftp or any of
> it's webby clones like dropbox really it still the best tool overall.
> Plus it has the added benefit that no user needs extra software - all
> OSes have ftp clients even if it's just a browser

The users don't know about that.


-- 
"Didn't work" is an error.

Re: [gentoo-user] replacement for ftp?

[lee]

"Poison BL." <poiso...@gmail.com> writes:

> On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 9:11 PM, lee <l...@yagibdah.de> wrote:
>>
>> "Poison BL." <poiso...@gmail.com> writes:
>> > Half petabyte datasets aren't really something I'd personally *ever*
> trust
>> > ftp with in the first place.
>>
>> Why not?  (12GB are nowhere close to half a petabyte ...)
>
> Ah... I completely misread that "or over 50k files in 12GB" as 50k files
> *at* 12GB each... which works out to 0.6 PB, incidentally.
>
>> The data would come in from suppliers.  There isn't really anything
>> going on atm but fetching data once a month which can be like 100MB or
>> 12GB or more.  That's because ppl don't use ftp ...
>
> Really, if you're pulling it in from third party suppliers, you tend to be
> tied to what they offer as a method of pulling it from them (or them
> pushing it out to you), unless you're in the unique position to dictate the
> decision for them.

They need to use ftp to deliver the data, we need to use ftp to get the
data.  I don't want that any other way.

The problem is that the ones supposed to deliver data are incompetent
and don't want to use ftp because it's too complicated.  So what's the
better solution?


> [...]
>
>> > How often does it need moved in/out of your facility, and is there no
> way
>> > to break up the processing into smaller chunks than a 0.6PB mass of
> files?
>> > Distribute out the smaller pieces with rsync, scp, or the like, operate
> on
>> > them, and pull back in the results, rather than trying to shift around
> the
>> > entire set. There's a reason Amazon will send a physical truck to a
> site to
>> > import large datasets into glacier... ;)
>>
>> Amazon has trucks?  Perhaps they do in other countries.  Here, amazon is
>> just another web shop.  They might have some delivery vans, but I've
>> never seen one, so I doubt it.  And why would anyone give them their
>> data?  There's no telling what they would do with it.
>
> Amazon's also one of the best known cloud computing suppliers on the planet
> (AWS = Amazon Web Services). They have everything from pure compute
> offerings to cloud storage geared towards *large* data archival. The latter
> offering is named "glacier", and they offer a service for the import of
> data into it (usually the "first pass", incremental changes are generally
> done over the wire) that consists of a shipping truck with a rather nifty
> storage system in the back of it that they hook right into your network.
> You fill it with data, and then they drive it back to one of their data
> centers to load it into place.

They might not have that here.  And who would want to give their data
out of hands?


-- 
"Didn't work" is an error.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: replacement for ftp?

[lee]

Kai Krakow <hurikha...@gmail.com> writes:

> Am Sat, 29 Apr 2017 20:30:03 +0100
> schrieb lee <l...@yagibdah.de>:
>
>> Danny YUE <sheepd...@gmail.com> writes:
>> 
>> > On 2017-04-25 14:29, lee <l...@yagibdah.de> wrote:  
>> >> Hi,
>> >>
>> >> since the usage of FTP seems to be declining, what is a replacement
>> >> which is at least as good as FTP?
>> >>
>> >> I'm aware that there's webdav, but that's very awkward to use and
>> >> missing features.  
>> >
>> > What about sshfs? It allows you to mount a location that can be
>> > accessed via ssh to your local file system, as if you are using
>> > ssh.  
>> 
>> Doesn't that require ssh access?  And how do you explain that to ppl
>> finding it too difficult to use Filezilla?  Is it available for
>> Windoze?
>
> Both, sshfs and scp, require a full shell (that may be restricted but
> that involves configuration overhead on the server side).

I wouldn't want them to have that.

> You can use sftp (FTP wrapped into SSH), which is built into SSH. It
> has native support in many Windows clients (most implementations use
> PuTTY in the background). It also has the advantage that you can
> easily restrict users on your system to SFTP-only with an easy
> server-side configuration.

>From what I've been reading, sftp is deprecated and has been replaced by
ftp with TLS.

>> > Also samba can be a replacement. I have a samba server on my OpenWRT
>> > router and use mount.cifs to mount it...  
>> 
>> Does that work well, reliably and securely over internet connections?
>
> It supports encryption as transport security, and it supports kerberos
> for secure authentication, the latter is not easy to setup in Linux,
> but it should work with Windows clients out-of-the-box.
>
> But samba is a pretty complex daemon and thus offers a big attack
> surface for hackers and bots. I'm not sure you want to expose this to
> the internet without some sort of firewall in place to restrict access
> to specific clients - and that probably wouldn't work for your scenario.

At least it's a possibility.  I don't even know if they have static IPs,
though.

> But you could offer access via OpenVPN and tunnel samba through that.

I haven't been able yet to figure out what implications creating a VPN
has.  I understand it's supposed to connect networks through a secured
tunnel, but what kind of access to the LAN does someone get who connects
via VPN?  Besides, VPN is extremely complicated and difficult to set
up.  I consider it an awful nightmare.

Wireguard seems a lot easier.

> By that time, you can as easily offer FTP, too, through the tunnel
> only, as there should be no more security concerns now: It's encrypted
> now.

The ftp server already doesn't allow unencrypted connections.

Now try to explain to ppl for whom Filezilla is too complicated how to
set up a VPN connection and how to secure their LAN once they create the
connection (if we could ever get that to work).  I haven't been able to
figure that out myself, and that is one of the main reasons why I do not
have a VPN connection but use ssh instead.  The only disadvantage is
that I can't do RDP sessions with that ---  I probably could and just
don't know how to --- but things might be a lot easier if wireguard
works.

> OpenVPN also offers transparent compression which can be a big
> plus for your scenario.

Not really, a lot of data is images, usually JPEG, some ZIP files, some
PDF.  All that doesn't compress too well.

> OpenVPN is not too difficult to setup, and the client is available for
> all major OSes. And it's not too complicated to use: Open VPN
> connection, then use your file transfer client as you're used to. Just
> one simple extra step.

I'm finding it a horrible nightmare, see above.  It is the most
difficult thing you could come up with.  I haven't found any good
documentation that explains it, the different types of it, how it works,
what to use (apparently there are many different ways or something, some
of which require a static IP on both ends, and they even give you
different disadvantages in performance ...), how to protect the
participants and all the complicated stuff involved.  So far, I've
managed to stay away from it, and I wouldn't know where to start.  Of
course, there is some documentation, but it is all confusing and no
good.

The routers even support it.  In theory, it shouldn't be difficult to
set up, but that's only theory.  They do not have any documentation as
to how to protect the connected networks from each other.  I could
probably get it to work, but I wouldn't know what I'm doing, and I don't
like that.


I admit that I don't really want to know how VPN works because it's
merely an annoyance and not what I need.  What's needed is a simple,
encrypted connection between networks, and VPN is anything but that.

Wireguard sounds really simple.  Since I need to set up a VPN or
VPN-like connection sooner than later, I'm considering using it.


-- 
"Didn't work" is an error.

Re: [gentoo-user] replacement for ftp?

[lee]

"Walter Dnes"  writes:

>> transferring large amounts of data and automatization in processing at
>> least some of it, without involving a 3rd party
>> 
>> "Large amounts" can be "small" like 100MB --- or over 50k files in 12GB,
>> or even more.  The mirror feature of lftp is extremely useful for such
>> things.
>> 
>> I wouldn't ever want having to mess around with web pages to figure out
>> how to do this.  Ftp is plain and simple.  So you see why I'm explicitly
>> asking for a replacement which is at least as good as ftp.
>
>   How about "wget"?  It can handle ftp and http, and it can be scripted.

Explain to someone unable to use Filezilla how to do that ...

I'd have to look up if wget can do ftp with TLS.

> And it can discriminate on timestamps, i.e. only download a file if it
> has been changed since the latest download at your site.
>
>   Then there's always "sneakernet".  To quote Andrew Tanenbaum from 1981
>
>> Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes
>> hurtling down the highway.

Hm, I'll suggest that, thanks.  Ppl might be more likely to think they
should be able to burn DVDs and send them in the mail than they are to
think they could use something much simpler, easier, faster and more
secure, like ftp ...


-- 
"Didn't work" is an error.

Re: [gentoo-user] How to get memtest onto a USB drive

[lee]

Peter Humphrey  writes:

> Hello list,
>
> I have a nearly new machine which is already showing signs of hardware 
> failure. I'd like to check its memory, for which memtest86+ seems suitable. 
> But I can't install it via portage because this is a UEFI machine and so its 
> boot partition is vfat; the install phase fails because symbolic links can't 
> be done.
>
> I downloaded an ISO image from http://www.memtest.org/#downiso and used 
> unetbootin to write it to the USB. It won't boot. I then tried dd but got 
> the same result.
>
> What's the recommended way to put a bootable memtest86+ image, or 
> equivalent, on a USB stick?

dd if=image.iso of=/dev/sdX

... where /dev/sdX is the USB stick.  Make sure the stick isn't mounted,
and write to the stick itself, not to any partition that may be on it.

In some cases, the stick won't boot:  Use another stick, or try writing
the ISO again.


-- 
"Didn't work" is an error.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Pseudo first impressions

[lee]

Kai Krakow  writes:

> Am Sat, 29 Apr 2017 14:39:13 +
> schrieb Alan Mackenzie :
>
>> For a start, I could barely read parts of it, which were displayed in
>> dark blue text on a black background.  Setting
>> up /etc/portage/color.map is not the first thing a new user should
>> have to do to be able to read messages from emerge.  This is,
>> however, something I knew had to be done, and I did it.
>
> This is a problem with most terminal emulators having a much too dark
> "dark blue".

Gentoo is being designed by and for ppl using CRTs?


-- 
"Didn't work" is an error.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: replacement for ftp?

[lee]

Kai Krakow <hurikha...@gmail.com> writes:

> Am Sat, 29 Apr 2017 20:02:57 +0100
> schrieb lee <l...@yagibdah.de>:
>
>> Alan McKinnon <alan.mckin...@gmail.com> writes:
>> 
>> > On 25/04/2017 16:29, lee wrote:  
>> >> 
>> >> Hi,
>> >> 
>> >> since the usage of FTP seems to be declining, what is a replacement
>> >> which is at least as good as FTP?
>> >> 
>> >> I'm aware that there's webdav, but that's very awkward to use and
>> >> missing features.
>> >> 
>> >>   
>> >
>> > Why not stick with ftp?  
>> 
>> The intended users are incompetent, hence it is too difficult to
>> use ...
>
> If you incompetent users are using Windows: Have you ever tried
> entering ftp://u...@yoursite.tld in the explorer directory input bar?

I tried at work and it said something like that the service cannot be
accessed.


> [...]
> Debian is not the king to rule the internet. You shouldn't care when
> they shut down their FTP services. It doesn't matter to the rest of the
> world using the internet.

Who can say what their influence actually is?  Imagine Debian going
away, and all the distributions depending on them as well because they
loose their packet sources, then what remains?  It is already rather
difficult to find a usable distribution, and what might the effect on
upstream sources be.

>> > There's always dropbox  
>> 
>> Well, dropbox sucks.  I got a dropbox link and it didn't work at all,
>> and handing out the data to some 3rd party is a very bad idea.  It's
>> also difficult to automate things with that.
>
> There's also owncloud (or whatever it is called now). You can automate
> things by deploying a sync application on your clients side.

The problem is that they would need to do that themselves.  It would be
much easier to show them how to use Filezilla ...


-- 
"Didn't work" is an error.

Re: [gentoo-user] replacement for ftp?

[lee]

Nils Freydank  writes:

> On Sat, 30 Apr 2017 19:04:06 +0200 Andrew Savchenko wrote:
>> [...]
>> I fail to see why FTP needs to be replaced: it works, it is
>> supported, it is secure when used with care, it is damn fast.
>
> I’ll just drop the somewhat popular rant “FTP must die“[1] and a follow-up
> discussion about it[2]. IMHO the main reasons are missing data integrity and
> authentication security issues. The latter one can be solved with FTPS[3] - 
> but honestly
> I never saw FTPS somewhere actually used in the wild.

I've done it that way because I didn't want unencrypted transfers and
sftp appears to be deprecated.  It's working fine, and I don't want to
replace it unless there were a better solution.


>
>
> [1] http://mywiki.wooledge.org/FtpMustDie
> [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11251907
> [3] i.e. FTP over SSL/TLS (not to mix up with SFTP, which comes from the SSH 
> family)
>
> Greetings,
> Nils

-- 
"Didn't work" is an error.

Re: [gentoo-user] Pseudo first impressions

[lee]

Daniel Frey <djqf...@gmail.com> writes:

> On 04/29/2017 01:38 PM, lee wrote:
>> !!! existing preserved libs:
>>>>> package: sys-libs/binutils-libs-2.27
>>  *  - /usr/lib64/libbfd-2.25.1.so
>>  *  used by 
>> /usr/lib64/binutils/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/2.25.1/libopcodes-2.25.1.so 
>> (sys-devel/binutils-2.25.1-r1)
>> Use emerge @preserved-rebuild to rebuild packages using these libraries
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> It's not possible to emerge net-dns/bind (I'm guessing that might be
>> because of binutils having some issue) and mysql-workbench.  The old
>> version of bind is still working, but what if it wasn't already
>> installed?  Also, I had to patch dev-perl/GD to get that to work.  What
>> will fail next?
>> 
>> So yes, it's not only about updates but about installing something in
>> general: It may work or not, and it may break other things or not, or it
>> may require you to do something because something has been pulled into
>> something by something, or you need to remove something, or something
>> doesn't work because of something ...
>> 
>> 
>
> Do a --depclean and that will resolve itself.

Last time I tried that, it wanted to remove the source of the kernel I'm
using, along with other things.  It would have made sense if I had
upgraded the kernel, too, but I didn't have the time to do that yet.


-- 
"Didn't work" is an error.

Re: [gentoo-user] having unavailable packages installed

[lee]

Dale <rdalek1...@gmail.com> writes:

> lee wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> how is it possible that a package is installed which is not available?
>>
>>
>> eix glibmm
>> [?] dev-cpp/glibmm
>>  Verfügbare Versionen:   (2) 2.44.0 2.46.4 2.48.1 ~2.50.0
>>{debug doc examples test ABI_MIPS="n32 n64 o32" ABI_PPC="32 64" 
>> ABI_S390="32 64" ABI_X86="32 64 x32"}
>>  Installierte Versionen: 2.50.1(2)(16:58:00 24.04.2017)(-debug -doc 
>> -test ABI_MIPS="-n32 -n64 -o32" ABI_PPC="-32 -64" ABI_S390="-32 -64" 
>> ABI_X86="64 -32 -x32")
>>  Startseite: http://www.gtkmm.org
>>  Beschreibung:   C++ interface for glib2
>>
>>
>> 2.50.1(2) appears to be installed but is not available.
>>
>>
>
> Usually when you see that, it was removed from the tree.  Some packages
> are upgraded in the tree then a little while later, older versions are
> removed from the tree.  I've seen that several times.  There may be
> other reasons for that but that is the one I see quite often. 

You mean one of the not-so-old version was removed?  That could be.

> By the way, if for some reason you have to have that version, you can
> grab the ebuild and put it in a local overlay.  Make sure you don't let
> that get updated/removed before you do that tho. 

I don't know, I only came across it when trying to get mysql-workbench
to compile.  I don't know why it's installed.

> Hope that helps.

ty :)

> Dale
>
> :-)  :-) 
>
>
>

-- 
"Didn't work" is an error.

Re: [gentoo-user] replacement for ftp?

[lee]

"Poison BL." <poiso...@gmail.com> writes:

> On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 3:24 PM, lee <l...@yagibdah.de> wrote:
>
>> Mick <michaelkintz...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>> > On Tuesday 25 Apr 2017 16:45:37 Alan McKinnon wrote:
>> >> On 25/04/2017 16:29, lee wrote:
>> >> > Hi,
>> >> >
>> >> > since the usage of FTP seems to be declining, what is a replacement
>> >> > which is at least as good as FTP?
>> >> >
>> >> > I'm aware that there's webdav, but that's very awkward to use and
>> >> > missing features.
>> >>
>> >> Why not stick with ftp?
>> >> Or, put another way, why do you feel you need to use something else?
>> >>
>> >> There's always dropbox
>> >
>> >
>> > Invariably all web hosting ISPs offer ftp(s) for file upload/download.
>> If you
>> > pay a bit more you should be able to get ssh/scp/sftp too.  Indeed, many
>> ISPs
>> > throw in scp/sftp access as part of their basic package.
>> >
>> > Webdav(s) offers the same basic upload/download functionality, so I am
>> not
>> > sure what you find awkward about it, although I'd rather use lftp
>> instead of
>> > cadaver any day. ;-)
>> >
>> > As Alan mentioned, with JavaScript'ed web pages these days there are many
>> > webapp'ed ISP offerings like Dropbox and friends.
>> >
>> > What is the use case you have in mind?
>>
>> transferring large amounts of data and automatization in processing at
>> least some of it, without involving a 3rd party
>>
>> "Large amounts" can be "small" like 100MB --- or over 50k files in 12GB,
>> or even more.  The mirror feature of lftp is extremely useful for such
>> things.
>>
>> I wouldn't ever want having to mess around with web pages to figure out
>> how to do this.  Ftp is plain and simple.  So you see why I'm explicitly
>> asking for a replacement which is at least as good as ftp.
>>
>>
>> --
>> "Didn't work" is an error.
>>
>>
> Half petabyte datasets aren't really something I'd personally *ever* trust
> ftp with in the first place.

Why not?  (12GB are nowhere close to half a petabyte ...)

> That said, it depends entirely on the network
> you're working with. Are you pushing this data in/out of the network your
> machines live in, or are you working primarily internally? If internal,
> what're the network side capabilities you have? Since you're likely already
> using something on the order of CEPH or Gluster to back the datasets where
> they sit, just working with it all across network from that storage would
> be my first instinct.

The data would come in from suppliers.  There isn't really anything
going on atm but fetching data once a month which can be like 100MB or
12GB or more.  That's because ppl don't use ftp ...

> How often does it need moved in/out of your facility, and is there no way
> to break up the processing into smaller chunks than a 0.6PB mass of files?
> Distribute out the smaller pieces with rsync, scp, or the like, operate on
> them, and pull back in the results, rather than trying to shift around the
> entire set. There's a reason Amazon will send a physical truck to a site to
> import large datasets into glacier... ;)

Amazon has trucks?  Perhaps they do in other countries.  Here, amazon is
just another web shop.  They might have some delivery vans, but I've
never seen one, so I doubt it.  And why would anyone give them their
data?  There's no telling what they would do with it.


-- 
"Didn't work" is an error.

[gentoo-user] having unavailable packages installed

[lee]

Hi,

how is it possible that a package is installed which is not available?


eix glibmm
[?] dev-cpp/glibmm
 Verfügbare Versionen:   (2) 2.44.0 2.46.4 2.48.1 ~2.50.0
   {debug doc examples test ABI_MIPS="n32 n64 o32" ABI_PPC="32 64" 
ABI_S390="32 64" ABI_X86="32 64 x32"}
 Installierte Versionen: 2.50.1(2)(16:58:00 24.04.2017)(-debug -doc -test 
ABI_MIPS="-n32 -n64 -o32" ABI_PPC="-32 -64" ABI_S390="-32 -64" ABI_X86="64 -32 
-x32")
 Startseite: http://www.gtkmm.org
 Beschreibung:   C++ interface for glib2


2.50.1(2) appears to be installed but is not available.


-- 
"Didn't work" is an error.

Re: [gentoo-user] replacement for ftp?

[lee]

"Poison BL." <poiso...@gmail.com> writes:

> On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 10:29 AM, lee <l...@yagibdah.de> wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> since the usage of FTP seems to be declining, what is a replacement
>> which is at least as good as FTP?
>>
>> I'm aware that there's webdav, but that's very awkward to use and
>> missing features.
>>
>>
>> --
>> "Didn't work" is an error.
>>
>>
> The one issue I have with all the answers I've seen is that they all lack
> the most important question. You're asking for alternatives for an old tool
> that was used for many use cases that, these days, have evolved to have
> very different requirements for security, integration of access methods,
> and general workflows for use. FTP used to be the go-to for long distance
> file sharing for *all* use cases, one to one (user managing a website's
> content), many to one (upload site), one to many (download site), etc.
> What's your use case?

all of them, with encrypted transfers and users needing a password for
access

I don't know anything better than ftp for this.  Alternatively, there
would need to be several different services for each group of users
accommodating their particular use case, and being a nightmare to deploy,
to maintain and to use.


-- 
"Didn't work" is an error.

Re: [gentoo-user] Pseudo first impressions

[lee]

Alan Mackenzie  writes:

> For a start, I could barely read parts of it, which were displayed in
> dark blue text on a black background.

Yes, that always annoys me, too.  You need to copy it from the terminal
and paste it into emacs, and then it's still not exactly readable or
even understandable.

> Setting up /etc/portage/color.map is not the first thing a new user
> should have to do to be able to read messages from emerge.  This is,
> however, something I knew had to be done, and I did it.

I didn't know that there's such a thing.  That should be mentioned in
the docs.

> The error message was "Multiple package instances within a single
> package slot have been pulled into the dependency graph, resulting in a
> slot conflict:".  Uhh???

Yeah, I never saw that graph.

> Is this gobbledegook really what a new user should be seeing, having not
> yet installed any packages, bar a very few, beyond what is requisite to
> bringing a new machine up?

The common answer to this is that the devs don't have time and/or can't
be bothered to improve this, and it's too complicated anyway.

> The actual conflict packages are:
> dev-lang/perl-5.24.1-r1:0/5.24::gentoo
>   and
> dev-lang/perl-5.22.3-rc4:0/5.22::gentoo
> , "pulled in" by internal system packages I've got no direct interest
> in, plus, shockingly, "and 2 more with the same problem" and "and 5 more
> with the same problem".

It's usually hundreds, not only 2 or 5.

> I'm glad I've got the experience with Gentoo to know it's worth
> ploughing on through these messes.

How's all the pain worth it?  It's not even all about the pain, it's
about keeping things working and up to date.  Even just that may be
impossible with Gentoo, even if you have the time.

> Other than that, it seems like a pretty ghastly mistake by Gentoo's
> quality control.  I know none of you get paid for it, and you all do it
> for love.  I admit I probably wouldn't have done the job much better
> myself.  But for Gentoo's sake, something needs to get better.

Being able to update at all would be a good start.


BTW, what's with this:


emerge -a feh
[...]
!!! existing preserved libs:
>>> package: sys-libs/binutils-libs-2.27
 *  - /usr/lib64/libbfd-2.25.1.so
 *  used by 
/usr/lib64/binutils/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/2.25.1/libopcodes-2.25.1.so 
(sys-devel/binutils-2.25.1-r1)
Use emerge @preserved-rebuild to rebuild packages using these libraries

emerge @preserved-rebuild
[...]
>>> Emerging (1 of 1) sys-devel/binutils-2.25.1-r1::gentoo
[...]
>>> Installing (1 of 1) sys-devel/binutils-2.25.1-r1::gentoo
>>> Jobs: 1 of 1 complete   Load avg: 3.41, 1.36, 0.60
[...]
!!! existing preserved libs:
>>> package: sys-libs/binutils-libs-2.27
 *  - /usr/lib64/libbfd-2.25.1.so
 *  used by 
/usr/lib64/binutils/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/2.25.1/libopcodes-2.25.1.so 
(sys-devel/binutils-2.25.1-r1)
Use emerge @preserved-rebuild to rebuild packages using these libraries



It's not possible to emerge net-dns/bind (I'm guessing that might be
because of binutils having some issue) and mysql-workbench.  The old
version of bind is still working, but what if it wasn't already
installed?  Also, I had to patch dev-perl/GD to get that to work.  What
will fail next?

So yes, it's not only about updates but about installing something in
general: It may work or not, and it may break other things or not, or it
may require you to do something because something has been pulled into
something by something, or you need to remove something, or something
doesn't work because of something ...


-- 
"Didn't work" is an error.

Re: [gentoo-user] replacement for ftp?

[lee]

Alan McKinnon <alan.mckin...@gmail.com> writes:

> On 25/04/2017 16:29, lee wrote:
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> since the usage of FTP seems to be declining, what is a replacement
>> which is at least as good as FTP?
>> 
>> I'm aware that there's webdav, but that's very awkward to use and
>> missing features.
>> 
>> 
>
> Why not stick with ftp?

The intended users are incompetent, hence it is too difficult to use ...

> Or, put another way, why do you feel you need to use something else?

I don't want to use anything else.

Yet even Debian has announced that they will shut down their ftp
services in November, one of the reasons being that almost no one uses
them.  Of course, their application is different from what I'm looking
for because they only have downloads and no uploads.

However, another reason given was that ftp isn't exactly friendly to
firewalls and requires "awkward kludges" when load balancing is used.
That is a pretty good reason.

Anyway, when pretty much nobody uses a particular software anymore, it
won't be very feasible to use that software.

> There's always dropbox

Well, dropbox sucks.  I got a dropbox link and it didn't work at all,
and handing out the data to some 3rd party is a very bad idea.  It's
also difficult to automate things with that.


-- 
"Didn't work" is an error.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: replacement for ftp?

[lee]

Kai Krakow <hurikha...@gmail.com> writes:

> Am Tue, 25 Apr 2017 15:29:18 +0100
> schrieb lee <l...@yagibdah.de>:
>
>> since the usage of FTP seems to be declining, what is a replacement
>> which is at least as good as FTP?
>> 
>> I'm aware that there's webdav, but that's very awkward to use and
>> missing features.
>
> If you want to sync files between two sites, try rsync. It is supported
> through ssh also. Plus, it's very fast also.

Yes, I'm using it mostly for backups/copies.

The problem is that ftp is ideal for the purpose, yet users find it too
difficult to use, and nobody uses it.  So there must be something else
as good or better which is easier to use and which ppl do use.  I don't
see how they would transfer files without ftp when ftp is the ideal
solution.


-- 
"Didn't work" is an error.

Re: [gentoo-user] replacement for ftp?

[lee]

Danny YUE <sheepd...@gmail.com> writes:

> On 2017-04-25 14:29, lee <l...@yagibdah.de> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> since the usage of FTP seems to be declining, what is a replacement
>> which is at least as good as FTP?
>>
>> I'm aware that there's webdav, but that's very awkward to use and
>> missing features.
>
> What about sshfs? It allows you to mount a location that can be accessed
> via ssh to your local file system, as if you are using ssh.

Doesn't that require ssh access?  And how do you explain that to ppl
finding it too difficult to use Filezilla?  Is it available for Windoze?

> Also samba can be a replacement. I have a samba server on my OpenWRT
> router and use mount.cifs to mount it...

Does that work well, reliably and securely over internet connections?


-- 
"Didn't work" is an error.

Re: [gentoo-user] replacement for ftp?

[lee]

Mick <michaelkintz...@gmail.com> writes:

> On Tuesday 25 Apr 2017 16:45:37 Alan McKinnon wrote:
>> On 25/04/2017 16:29, lee wrote:
>> > Hi,
>> > 
>> > since the usage of FTP seems to be declining, what is a replacement
>> > which is at least as good as FTP?
>> > 
>> > I'm aware that there's webdav, but that's very awkward to use and
>> > missing features.
>> 
>> Why not stick with ftp?
>> Or, put another way, why do you feel you need to use something else?
>> 
>> There's always dropbox
>
>
> Invariably all web hosting ISPs offer ftp(s) for file upload/download.  If 
> you 
> pay a bit more you should be able to get ssh/scp/sftp too.  Indeed, many ISPs 
> throw in scp/sftp access as part of their basic package.
>
> Webdav(s) offers the same basic upload/download functionality, so I am not 
> sure what you find awkward about it, although I'd rather use lftp instead of 
> cadaver any day. ;-)
>
> As Alan mentioned, with JavaScript'ed web pages these days there are many 
> webapp'ed ISP offerings like Dropbox and friends.
>
> What is the use case you have in mind?

transferring large amounts of data and automatization in processing at
least some of it, without involving a 3rd party

"Large amounts" can be "small" like 100MB --- or over 50k files in 12GB,
or even more.  The mirror feature of lftp is extremely useful for such
things.

I wouldn't ever want having to mess around with web pages to figure out
how to do this.  Ftp is plain and simple.  So you see why I'm explicitly
asking for a replacement which is at least as good as ftp.


-- 
"Didn't work" is an error.

[gentoo-user] replacement for ftp?

[lee]

Hi,

since the usage of FTP seems to be declining, what is a replacement
which is at least as good as FTP?

I'm aware that there's webdav, but that's very awkward to use and
missing features.


-- 
"Didn't work" is an error.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: mysql-workbench

[lee]

Martin Vaeth  writes:

>> Alan McKinnon >| [ebuild  N ] dev-cpp/cairomm-1.12.0-r1  USE="svg -X (-aqua) -doc"
>>[???]
>>| # required by dev-cpp/cairomm-1.12.0-r1::gentoo
>>| >=x11-libs/cairo- -X
>
> eix -vle cairomm

Oh, that gives nice output, thanks!

> ???RDEPEND:  >=x11-libs/cairo-1.12.10[aqua=,svg=,X=,???
>
> So your selected cairomm[-X] requires cairo[-X].
> A solution might be to select cairomm[X]

cairomm now uses X.  That it won't compile must be some other problem.

BTW, bind needs


LDFLAGS="$LDFLAGS -ldl" emerge bind


to compile, is that a bug?

Re: [gentoo-user] mysql-workbench

[lee]

Alan McKinnon <alan.mckin...@gmail.com> writes:

> On 17/04/2017 19:12, lee wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> mysql-workbench requires a USE flag of '>=x11-libs/cairo- -X' while
>> lots of other packages apparently require cairo with X:
>
> no it doesn't. With a fresh tree:
>
> khamul mysql-workbench # grep cairo *ebuild
> mysql-workbench-6.3.3.ebuild:   >=x11-libs/cairo-1.5.12[glib,svg]
> mysql-workbench-6.3.4-r1.ebuild:
>>=x11-libs/cairo-1.5.12[glib,svg]
> mysql-workbench-6.3.4-r2.ebuild:
>>=x11-libs/cairo-1.5.12[glib,svg]
> mysql-workbench-6.3.4.ebuild:   >=x11-libs/cairo-1.5.12[glib,svg]
> # grep  *ebuild
> #
>

Emerge said I need to make above use change.

There are some entries about cairo in package.use, yet commenting them
out didn't help.


, [ grep cairo /etc/portage/package.use ]
| =x11-libs/cairo-1.12.16 xcb
| =x11-libs/cairo-1.12.16 X
| =x11-libs/cairo-1.12.16 opengl
| =x11-libs/cairo-1.12.16-r4 X xcb
| =x11-libs/cairo-1.12.18-r1 xcb X
| >=x11-libs/cairo-1.14.2 xcb X
| >=app-text/poppler-0.42.0 cairo
| # required by dev-cpp/cairomm-1.12.0-r1::gentoo
| >=x11-libs/cairo- X
| # required by dev-cpp/cairomm-1.12.0-r1::gentoo
| =x11-libs/cairo-1.14.8 -X
`


> Are you using an overlay that provides someone's latest greatest
> mysql-workbench?
>
> This is what the tree has right now, what does your machine say?
>
> # eix mysql-workbench
> * dev-db/mysql-workbench
>  Available versions:  6.3.3 (~)6.3.4 6.3.4-r1 (~)6.3.4-r2 {debug doc
> gnome-keyring PYTHON_TARGETS="python2_7"}
>  Homepage:http://dev.mysql.com/workbench/
>  Description: MySQL Workbench
>

same here:

, [ eix mysql-workbench ]
| * dev-db/mysql-workbench
|  Verfügbare Versionen:   6.3.3 ~6.3.4 6.3.4-r1 ~6.3.4-r2 {debug doc 
gnome-keyring PYTHON_TARGETS="python2_7"}
|  Startseite: http://dev.mysql.com/workbench/
|  Beschreibung:   MySQL Workbench
`


, [ emerge -a mysql-workbench ]
| 
|  * IMPORTANT: 1 news items need reading for repository 'gentoo'.
|  * Use eselect news read to view new items.
| 
| 
|  * IMPORTANT: 3 config files in '/etc/portage' need updating.
|  * See the CONFIGURATION FILES and CONFIGURATION FILES UPDATE TOOLS
|  * sections of the emerge man page to learn how to update config files.
| 
| These are the packages that would be merged, in order:
| 
| Calculating dependencies... done!
| [ebuild  N ] sci-libs/proj-4.8.0  USE="-java -static-libs" 
| [ebuild  N ] sys-apps/baselayout-java-0.1.0 
| [ebuild  N ] dev-python/pexpect-3.3  USE="-doc -examples {-test}" 
PYTHON_TARGETS="python2_7 python3_4 (-pypy) (-pypy3) (-python3_5) (-python3_6)" 
| [ebuild  N ] dev-java/java-config-2.2.0-r3  USE="{-test}" 
PYTHON_TARGETS="python2_7 python3_4 (-python3_5)" 
| [ebuild  N ] dev-python/paramiko-2.1.2  USE="-doc -examples" 
PYTHON_TARGETS="python2_7 python3_4 (-python3_5) (-python3_6)" 
| [ebuild  N ] app-eselect/eselect-java-0.3.0 
| [ebuild  N ] dev-lang/lua-5.1.5-r4  USE="deprecated readline -emacs 
-static" 
| [ebuild  N ] dev-cpp/ctemplate-2.3-r1  USE="-doc -emacs -static-libs 
{-test} -vim-syntax" 
| [ebuild  N ] dev-db/vsqlite++-0.3.13-r1  USE="-static-libs" 
| [ebuild  N ] dev-libs/libzip-1.0.1  USE="-static-libs" 
| [ebuild  N ] sci-libs/libgeotiff-1.4.0  USE="-debug -doc -static-libs" 
| [ebuild  N ] dev-libs/json-c-0.12  USE="-doc -static-libs" 
| [ebuild  N ] sci-libs/gdal-2.0.2-r3  USE="aux_xml threads -armadillo 
-curl -debug -doc -fits -geos -gif -gml -hdf5 -java -jpeg -jpeg2k -mdb -mysql 
-netcdf -odbc -ogdi -opencl -pdf -perl -png -postgres -python -spatialite 
-sqlite -xls" PYTHON_TARGETS="python2_7 python3_4" 
| [ebuild  N ] app-admin/sudo-1.8.18_p1  USE="nls pam sendmail -ldap 
-offensive (-selinux) -skey" 
| [ebuild  N ] dev-db/mysql-connector-c++-1.1.6  USE="-debug -examples 
-gcov -static-libs" 
| [ebuild U *] x11-libs/cairo- [1.14.8] USE="-X* -utils%" 
| [ebuild  N ] dev-cpp/atkmm-2.24.2  USE="-doc" 
| [ebuild  N ] dev-cpp/cairomm-1.12.0-r1  USE="svg -X (-aqua) -doc" 
| [ebuild  N ] dev-cpp/pangomm-2.40.1  USE="-doc" 
| [ebuild  N ] dev-cpp/gtkmm-2.24.5  USE="-doc -examples {-test}" 
| [ebuild  N ] dev-java/icedtea-bin-3.3.0  USE="alsa cups gtk webstart -doc 
-examples -headless-awt (-multilib) -nsplugin -pulseaudio (-selinux) -source" 
| [ebuild  N ] virtual/jdk-1.8.0-r3 
| [ebuild  N ] virtual/jre-1.8.0-r1 
| [ebuild  N ] dev-java/icedtea-web-1.6.1-r1  USE="-doc -javascript 
-nsplugin -tagsoup {-test}" 
| [ebuild  N ] d

[gentoo-user] mysql-workbench

[lee]

Hi,

mysql-workbench requires a USE flag of '>=x11-libs/cairo- -X' while
lots of other packages apparently require cairo with X:


x11-libs/cairo:0

  (x11-libs/cairo-:0/0::gentoo, ebuild scheduled for merge) conflicts with
>=x11-libs/cairo-1.8.4[X] required by 
(dev-dotnet/libgdiplus-4.2-r3:0/0::gentoo, installed)
   ^ 
>=x11-libs/cairo-1.12.14-r4:0/0=[svg,X,abi_x86_64(-)] required by 
(x11-libs/gtk+-2.24.31-r1:2/2::gentoo, installed)
 ^   
>=x11-libs/cairo-1.12.14-r4:0/0=[X,abi_x86_64(-)] required by 
(x11-libs/pango-1.40.4:0/0::gentoo, installed)
 ^   
x11-libs/cairo[X,-xlib-xcb(-)] required by 
(app-office/libreoffice-5.2.3.3-r1:0/0::gentoo, installed)
   ^  
>=x11-libs/cairo-1.12.14-r4:=[X,abi_x86_64(-)] required by 
(x11-libs/pango-1.40.4:0/0::gentoo, installed)
  ^   
>=x11-libs/cairo-1.10:0/0=[X] required by 
(net-libs/webkit-gtk-2.4.11-r200:2/2::gentoo, installed)
   ^ 
>=x11-libs/cairo-1.14[glib,svg,X,abi_x86_64(-)] required by 
(x11-libs/gtk+-3.22.11:3/3::gentoo, installed)
   ^   
>=x11-libs/cairo-1.12.14-r4:=[svg,X,abi_x86_64(-)] required by 
(x11-libs/gtk+-2.24.31-r1:2/2::gentoo, installed)
  ^   
>=x11-libs/cairo-1.10[X] required by 
(www-client/seamonkey-2.46-r1:0/0::gentoo, installed)
  ^ 
>=x11-libs/cairo-1.10:=[X] required by 
(net-libs/webkit-gtk-2.4.11-r200:2/2::gentoo, installed)


Is there a good way to get mysql-workbench installed without removing
the other packages?

[gentoo-user] squid delay pools?

[lee]

Hi,

are delay pools somehow entirely disabled in Gentoos version of squid?
I'm seeing no USE flag to enable them.

Even with very low bandwidth allowed, squid fetches at full speed:


delay_pools 1
delay_class 1 1
delay_access 1 allow all
delay_parameters 1 8000/8000


That should limit it to 8kbit/s, but it has no effect.

Re: [gentoo-user] conky failed to build: Missing unknown library/application/whatever

[lee]

Daniel Pielmeier  writes:

> Afaik nvidia-settings is on it's way out of portage thus considered
> deprecated.

What's is replacing it?

Re: [gentoo-user] kvm/qemu no-multilib

[lee]

Alec Ten Harmsel <a...@alectenharmsel.com> writes:

> El 02/01/2017 a las 12:02 p. m., lee escribió:
>> Hi,
>>
>> is it possible to install kvm/qemu (and virsh) on a no-multilib profile?
>
> Yes

Cool, thanks :)

>> I'm hitting the disadvantages of containers too much and would like to
>> migrate to VMs ...
>>
>
> Which disadvantages? Just curious...

They can be a bit tricky to start in that not all services come up after
rebooting the system.  With one of them, /dev/null gets sometimes
removed for unknown reasons.  When you want to do something with
iptables, you can't.

Other than that, they work great and have many advantages.

[gentoo-user] kvm/qemu no-multilib

[lee]

Hi,

is it possible to install kvm/qemu (and virsh) on a no-multilib profile?

I'm hitting the disadvantages of containers too much and would like to
migrate to VMs ...

[gentoo-user] squidguard db directory

[lee]

Hi,

what would be the Gentoo place to put blocklists for squidguard?  The
example configs suggest /etc/squidguard/db, and I'm finding that rather
odd.  I'll use /var/lib/squidguard instead, which seems more adequate.

But what's the Gentoo place to put the blocklists?

Re: [gentoo-user] New box

[lee]

"taii...@gmx.com" <taii...@gmx.com> writes:

> On 12/30/2016 11:43 AM, lee wrote:
>
>> "taii...@gmx.com" <taii...@gmx.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 12/30/2016 08:39 AM, lee wrote:
>>>
>>>> the...@sys-concept.com writes:
>>>>
>>>>> I'm putting a new system, it will be running mainly, VirtualBox,
>>> [...]
>>>> If you want a rock solid machine with lots of cores and RAM and very
>>>> capable of powering VMs, the HP Z800 is worthwhile to check out.
>>> [...]
>>> You can build a system with a (new) KGPE-D16, two used 6276 processors
>>> and used 64gb ecc ram for only around $500 which will net you a 32
>>> core computer that can run blob free no microcode coreboot that
>>> supports max 256GB RDIMM RAM.
>> Including an excellent 850W power supply, a good case, SAS RAID
>> controller and a graphics card?
>>
>> The 6276 is a more power hungry than a Xeon and runs at only 2.3GHz
>> (though I don't know how that compares to the Xeon).  Power consumption
>> is an issue for me because electricity is way too expensive here.
>>
>> Asus doesn't seem to say anything about coreboot?
>>
>>> There is another coreboot compatible (theoretically, but not tested)
>>> QP max 1TB (jesus christ) RDIMM RAM G34 motherboard, so you could have
>>> 64 cores for only $20 or so per 16 cores. (plus the $30 for a cpu
>>> cooler)
>> It's good to have so many options to choose from :)  Considering all
>> this, is there a good reason to go for an FX-8350?
>>
> Ahh good point, I was assuming he already had a case like I did. I

It's on the list ...  When you add it up, you pay about the same for a
Z800 with 64GB, more when you account for your work of putting the parts
together.

> have a single 6274 plus graphics card with a *quality* 500watt PSU and
> it works fine at full load.
> 6 cores vs 16 cores and coreboot with zero blobs or microcode, IMO the
> power consumption is greatly worth it.

Well, the FX-8350 is probably not exactly a power-saving CPU, either, so
what would count is the difference.

> Asus didn't implement coreboot on the kgpe-d16 (asus sucks), it was

Yeah, I say that too ever since I had an Asus board with a fan on it
that started making noise after a short time, and it wasn't possible to
update the BIOS, either, because that required windoze.  I won't buy
Asus anymore since then.

> done by the firmware heroes at raptor engineering.
>
> 6276 actually runs at 2.6ghz with turbo assuming you have proper
> cooling, and 8 cores can turbo to 3.2ghz if the other 8 are in CC6.
>
>
> If you care about linux you will care about free firmware, if we do
> not care one day microsoft will simply flip a switch and shut us out
> for good ("secure" boot 2.0 spec does not mandate the option to
> disable it)

The problem is getting a board with coreboot.  I definitely don't want
an UEFI board, and so far I got away with not having any, but what
choice do you really have?

Re: [gentoo-user] New box

[lee]

"taii...@gmx.com" <taii...@gmx.com> writes:

> On 12/30/2016 08:39 AM, lee wrote:
>
>> the...@sys-concept.com writes:
>>
>>> I'm putting a new system, it will be running mainly, VirtualBox,
> [...]
>> If you want a rock solid machine with lots of cores and RAM and very
>> capable of powering VMs, the HP Z800 is worthwhile to check out.
> [...]
>>
> You can build a system with a (new) KGPE-D16, two used 6276 processors
> and used 64gb ecc ram for only around $500 which will net you a 32
> core computer that can run blob free no microcode coreboot that
> supports max 256GB RDIMM RAM.

Including an excellent 850W power supply, a good case, SAS RAID
controller and a graphics card?

The 6276 is a more power hungry than a Xeon and runs at only 2.3GHz
(though I don't know how that compares to the Xeon).  Power consumption
is an issue for me because electricity is way too expensive here.

Asus doesn't seem to say anything about coreboot?

> There is another coreboot compatible (theoretically, but not tested)
> QP max 1TB (jesus christ) RDIMM RAM G34 motherboard, so you could have
> 64 cores for only $20 or so per 16 cores. (plus the $30 for a cpu
> cooler)

It's good to have so many options to choose from :)  Considering all
this, is there a good reason to go for an FX-8350?

Re: [gentoo-user] Weird warning message when emerging gcc

[lee]

Nikos Chantziaras  writes:

> A world update emerged gcc-5.4.0-r2 (update from 5.4.0). At the end of
> the build, I got this:
>
>  * Python seems to be broken, attempting to locate CHOST ourselves ...
>  * Switching native-compiler to x86_64-pc-linux-gnu-5.4.0
> ...PORTAGE_BZIP2_COMMAND setting is invalid: 'bzip2'
> PORTAGE_BZIP2_COMMAND setting from make.globals is invalid: 'bzip2'
>
> I'm not seeing how python is broken here (works fine), and why
> PORTAGE_BZIP2_COMMAND is invalid. Can someone explain what's going on
> here?

Since there is such a command, is it possible (and worthwhile) to use
lbzip2 instead of bzip2 with portage?  (lbzip2 is ridiculously fast when
you have the cores and the RAM ...)

Re: [gentoo-user] New box

[lee]

the...@sys-concept.com writes:

> I'm putting a new system, it will be running mainly, VirtualBox,
> Asterisk, Hylafax etc. (nothing graphic intensive).
>
> - IN WIN BL631 Low Profile Micro ATX Case w/ 300W Power Supply,
> - AMD FX-8350 Processor 4.0GHz w/ 16MB Cache
> - Gigabyte GA-78LMT-USB3 w/ DDR3, 7.1 Audio, Gigabit Lan
> - Kingston HyperX Fury 16GB DDR3-1866MHz CL10 Dual Channel Kit
> - Samsung 850 EVO Series mSATA Solid State Drive, 1TB
> - Asus GeForce GT 720 Silent CSM, 2GB, PCI-E w/ D-Sub VGA, DVI, HDMI
>
> Will I have any problems installing Gentoo on this configuration, eg.
> with Video Card etc.?
> Do I need more RAM?

If you want a rock solid machine with lots of cores and RAM and very
capable of powering VMs, the HP Z800 is worthwhile to check out.

You can get them for good prices here from resellers/ebay, and they are
IMO currently the best you can get for your money if you want something
like that.  Technology has moved on a bit, but you'd spend about twice
the money if you buy something new that offers comparable overall
performance.  The Z820s are still rather pricey.

"Top speed" may be higher with the AMD, but I think it will have a hard
time beating the overall performance of 2 Xeons with 6x2 cores each and
48GB RAM (or whatever configuration you get) when you load it with VMs
and start compiling stuff.

IF that's an issue for you: I've measured the power consumption of a
Z800 with two X5675, 48GB RAM and a GTX770: 130W at idle, which I think
is amazing.  It can reach about 600W when compiling, with the graphics
card working hard and 6 spinning 3.5" disks.

There are no issues with temperatures or anything, and they are pretty
quiet.

The power supplies they have are impressive.  I've seen the lights go
out for like half a second or so, and I expected the machines to go
down, but they kept running as if nothing happened.

You can run Gentoo, Debian and Fedora on them.  If you run Xen on it,
limit cstates to 1 or you may see random freezes.

I wouldn't change mine for anything less than a Z820.  I used to build
my machines from parts, and I quit doing that because it isn't
worthwhile when you can just get a Z800 which offers more for half the
money.


Other than that, as others have already said, you're probably better off
with at least 32GB and a better PSU.  I also don't store data or a
system on a single disk with no redundancy, except for backups.

(A Z800 has four 3.5" bays, and you can get adapters for 2.5" disks that
plug in.  You could use 2x72GB 2.5" 15k SAS disks which you can get very
cheaply for the system, put everything else on your SSD and use a 3.5"
SATA disk for backups.)

Re: mailer "module" for 'eselect news' (Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?,

[lee]

Neil Bothwick <n...@digimed.co.uk> writes:

> On Wed, 28 Dec 2016 17:20:50 +0100, lee wrote:
>
>> > #!/bin/sh
>> >
>> > if [ $( eselect news count new ) != "0" ]; then
>> >eselect news list | mail y...@wherever.you.are
>> >fi  
>> 
>> Thanks!  To actually read the news as email, I wrote this:
>> 
>> #!/usr/bin/perl
> [massive snip]
>
> What does this actually do? Does it separate each news item into a
> separate mail, which sounds a neat idea. If you just want all the news
> news items, you could replace "list" with "read new" in my
> script^H^H^H^H^^Hhack.

You can set it up either way, i. e. all in one email, or each item in
one, or several items in several mails, by setting $msglen.  I didn't
know there is 'read new' ...

mailer "module" for 'eselect news' (Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No)

[lee]

Neil Bothwick <n...@digimed.co.uk> writes:

> On Tue, 27 Dec 2016 20:21:19 +0100, lee wrote:
>
>> >  Even more reasonable:
>> >
>> >  eselect news read new
>> >
>> > will only come up with the latest as yet unread news, rather than a
>> > long list which could have accumulated over the years.  
>> 
>> It seems to be clearing out the list automatically.
>> 
>> [1] says the mailer module of eselect was removed.  Is there a better
>> way to read them than with eselect?
>
> Put this script in /etc/portage/postsync.d and make it executable
>
> #!/bin/sh
>
> if [ $( eselect news count new ) != "0" ]; then
>eselect news list | mail y...@wherever.you.are
>fi

Thanks!  To actually read the news as email, I wrote this:


#!/usr/bin/perl
#
#
# This program is free software: you can redistribute it and/or modify
# it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by
# the Free Software Foundation, either version 3 of the License, or
# (at your option) any later version.
#
# This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but
# WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of
# MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.  See the GNU
# General Public License for more details.
#
# You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License
# along with this program.  If not, see <http://www.gnu.org/licenses/>.
#
#
# You may need to emerge dev-perl/Email-MIME and dev-perl/Email-Sender
# for this to work.
#

use strict;
use warnings;
use Email::MIME;
use Email::Sender::Simple qw(sendmail);


 configure this 

my @rcpt = ('l...@yagibdah.de');
my $from = 'r...@yagibdah.de';
my $subj = 'eselect news';
#
# you can set this to 0 to get an email for every news item
#
my $msglen = 65536;

#
# set to 1 to get only items listed as new
#
my $only_new = 1;

 / configure this ###


my @list = qx/eselect news list/;
my @numbers = $only_new ? map(m/\A\s*\[(\d+)\]\s*N\s*\d/, @list) : map(m/\A\s*\[(\d+)\]/, @list);
my $content = join('', @list) . "\n" . ('#' x 70) . "\n\n";
undef @list;

foreach (@numbers) {
  my $do = "eselect news read $_";
  $content .= qx/$do/;
  $content .= "\n" . ('#' x 70) . "\n\n";

  if (length($content) > $msglen) {
my $message = Email::MIME->create(
  header_str => [
		 From=> $from,
		 To  => @rcpt,
		 Subject => $subj
		],
  attributes => {
		 encoding => 'quoted-printable',
		 charset  => 'UTF-8'
		},
  body_str => $content
 );
sendmail($message);

$content = '';
  }
}

if (length($content)) {
  my $message = Email::MIME->create(
header_str => [
		   From=> $from,
		   To  => @rcpt,
		   Subject => $subj
		  ],
attributes => {
		   encoding => 'quoted-printable',
		   charset  => 'UTF-8'
		  },
body_str => $content
   );
  sendmail($message);
}


exit 0;

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Alan McKinnon <alan.mckin...@gmail.com> writes:

> On 27/12/2016 01:02, lee wrote:
>> Alan McKinnon <alan.mckin...@gmail.com> writes:
>> 
>>> On 26/12/2016 21:42, lee wrote:
>>>> Well, I guess you haven't realised yet that reality doesn't exist.
>>>> Bubbles are a self-imposed limit for those who believe in reality.
>>>> You probably hit that wall and now try hard to remain confined.
>>>>
>>>> Unfortunately, this won't make sense to you until you come to realise.
>>>
>>>
>>> I *strongly* recommend you cease insulting people's intelligence on this
>>> list.
>> 
>> It was not my intention to do that, and if I did, I apologize.
>> 
>> Different people realise different things.  There are many things I will
>> never realise and others I have.  There are things I won't understand
>> before I have realised what is necessary to realise to understand them.
>> Finding that someone won't understand something before they have
>> realised something doesn't insult anyones intelligence.
>
>
> OK.
>
> I think you need to step back a little and apply the above to this
> situation. By that I mean how you are interacting with others, not the
> various questions about systemd, how many NICs a board has in general
> and so on.
>
> The results you are getting are far from optimum - you may eventually
> get an answer that satisfies you but in general it is involving long
> winding threads that frustrate others.
>
> So I suggest you apply reason and investigation to determine why that
> might be so.
>
> One highly workable method is when you find yourself taking a contrary
> position and about to explain why you think what you think, then reverse
> it. Instead, state that you disagree, that you think something else and
> invite the other to explain why they are saying what they are saying.
> This method has high success in revealing to you what it is you have to
> realise first, as you mention above)
>
>
>> 
>> 
>>> This list (gentoo-user) contains the brightest minds, widest range of
>>> experience (both CS-related and just generally in life), most articulate
>>> and surprisingly, most tolerant, bunch of people I have ever come across
>>> online; and I've been here for 10 years and doing online for 20+ years
>>> and the above is not meant idly.
>>>
>>> I can't watch you type and I can't get in your headspace but based just
>>> on what I read from you, your communications say something that is
>>> frankly, very insulting to those individuals. There is no need to
>>> disparage someone else just because their frame of reference differs
>>> from yours.
>>>
>>> Alan
>>>
>>> p.s. You have a very long way to go still before you begin to match
>>> Dale's contributions here.
>> 
>> So this is supposed to be a competition?
>
> No, it's about people and how people communicate concepts and ideas.
> It's about how Dale is a long term contributor and people generally
> think well of him and how statistically he is right more often than he
> is wrong. He's worth paying attention to.

I see what you mean.  Dale must be pretty annoyed by me.

Sorry, Dale.

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Neil Bothwick <n...@digimed.co.uk> writes:

> On Mon, 26 Dec 2016 21:01:22 +0100, lee wrote:
>
>> > AFAIK, you have three possibilities.
>> >
>> > 1) If you're renaming a NIC via its MAC address, you have to edit the
>> > config file thatlinks the NIC's names and its MAC address.
>> >
>> > 2) If you're using udev's predictable names, the NIC'll have the same
>> > (more or less complex) name if you use the same slot.
>> >
>> > 3) If you're using the kernel names, you have no guarantee that ethX
>> > will be assigned to the same NIC at every bot.  
>> 
>> So there's no good option because names may change unless you make and
>> maintain an assignment.  I wonder why that isn't the default ...
>
> I would imagine because it cannot be used without some initial
> configuration. The default provides the greatest reliability out of the
> box, at the expense of less readable (which is not the same as
> unrecognisable, a value judgement you are imposing on the names) names.

I call them unrecognisable because they are hard to recognise, as in
hard to read and impossible to remember.  I find that annoying.  I can
call them "annoying names" if you prefer that :)

> There is nothing wrong with wanting things to work as you do, but it
> requires input to do so. It you have to start editing files to make it
> work properly, there is little point in making it the default.

Right, and it could work without editing files manually.  A
configuration file assigning editable names to the annoying names could
be created automatically and filled by assigning the name an interface
already has to it (because when it has a name, the name is known, which
is easier than trying to make up all possible names in advance).  Then
only if you wanted you would edit the configuration file to assign the
name(s) of your choosing, and if you don't want to do that, you simply
get the names you get now.  There would be no change to how the names
are now, only an additional option.

That would also have the advantage that when the annoying name of an
interface changes, you can choose to either adjust all configuration
files in which you have specified a particular interface or simply
adjust the one configuration file that assigns the names.

I actually wonder why they didn't virtualise the names.  It makes too
much sense for not to do it, and you could do likewise with other
devices (especially disks).

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Mick <michaelkintz...@gmail.com> writes:

> On Tuesday 27 Dec 2016 08:21:53 lee wrote:
>> Rich Freeman <ri...@gentoo.org> writes:
>> > On Mon, Dec 26, 2016 at 5:47 PM, lee <l...@yagibdah.de> wrote:
>> >> Yes, and that doesn't show me news before I sync, or does it?
>> > 
>> > Correct.
>> > 
>> > The order to do this in is:
>> > 
>> > Sync
>> > Read news.
>> > Apply updates.
>> 
>> sounds reasonable
>
> Even more reasonable:
>
>  eselect news read new
>
> will only come up with the latest as yet unread news, rather than a long list 
> which could have accumulated over the years.

It seems to be clearing out the list automatically.

[1] says the mailer module of eselect was removed.  Is there a better
way to read them than with eselect?


[1]: https://gitweb.gentoo.org/proj/eselect.git/plain/NEWS

Re: [gentoo-user] kernel 4.9.0 + nvidia problem

[lee]

Philip Webb  writes:

> I successfully configured, compiled & installed Kernel 4.9.0 (testing)
> & compiled Nvidia 375.26 (testing) to match ;
> there was a problem trying to use 4.9.0 with 361.28 (below).
> After reboot, X started, but with a primitive display (overlarge chars etc).
> I tried it with KDE 5 & with Fluxbox, but no difference :
> KDE couldn't start Plasma, but showed a few apps.
> There was a warning msg re Opengl, but nothing helpful.
>
> Previously & now again, everything is ok with Kernel 4.2.0-r1 + Nvidia 361.28.
>
> There are many kernel versions available & many Nvidia versions ;
> there are also many USE flags & many kernel options.
> Before I try permutating them all (smile), has anyone else had trouble here ?

4.4.6 and 375.26 seem to work fine here.


 * Found these USE flags for x11-drivers/nvidia-drivers-375.26:
 U I
 + + X   : Install the X.org driver, OpenGL libraries, XvMC libraries, 
and VDPAU libraries
 - - acpi: Add support for Advanced Configuration and Power Interface
 - - compat  : Install non-GLVND libGL for backwards compatibility
 + + driver  : Install the kernel driver module
 + + gtk3: Install nvidia-settings with support for GTK+ 3
 + + kms : Enable support for kernel mode setting (KMS)
 - - pax_kernel  : PaX patches from the PaX project
 - - static-libs : Build static versions of dynamic libraries as well
 + + tools   : Install additional tools such as nvidia-settings
 - - uvm : Install the Unified Memory kernel module (nvidia-uvm) for 
sharing memory between CPU and GPU in CUDA programs
 - - wayland : Enable dev-libs/wayland backend


For kernel options, I followed the wiki.

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Alan McKinnon <alan.mckin...@gmail.com> writes:

> On 26/12/2016 20:35, lee wrote:
>> Tom H <tomh0...@gmail.com> writes:
>> 
>>> On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 9:07 PM, lee <l...@yagibdah.de> wrote:
>>>> Tom H <tomh0...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>> On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 3:07 PM, Daniel Frey <djqf...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is even more frustrating that these so-called predictable network
>>>>>> names actually can change on a reboot, it's happened to me more than
>>>>>> once when multiple network cards are detected in a different order.
>>>>>
>>>>> >From Kay Sievers in [1]:
>>>>>
>>>>> 
>>>>> Btw, predictable means it will not change between reboots, that names
>>>>> will not depend on enumeration order within the same setup. It does
>>>>> not mean or promise, that added kernel/driver/firmware features will
>>>>> not result in different names. That is expected behavior.
>>>>> 
>>>>>
>>>>> [1] 
>>>>> https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2015-October/034614.html
>>>>
>>>> So the names will not change when rebooting and are to be expected to
>>>> possibly change at any time.
>>>>
>>>> How is that more reliable?
>>>
>>> It's more reliable than using the kernel's names because the names
>>> won't change UNLESS there's kernel/driver/firmware change for that
>>> NIC. I doubt that these changes occur that often. Perhaps someone else
>>> knows.
>> 
>> What happens more often:  That a network card is replaced with a
>> different one or that the software changes?
>> 
>
>
> OK, let me try explain this again.
>
> NIC names are tricky, several posters (myself included) have laid out
> various methods and options by which it can be done. Experience shows
> that in real life the simple traditional names are easy to remember but
> prone to changing and (worse) prone to race conditions. Other methods
> change less often in reality but the names are somewhat trickier to
> remember.
>
> Opinions on these things differ; experience on these things differ and
> people's use cases on these things differ greatly. A coder working in
> this area has to decide what sort of cases they want to support, what
> problems they want to attempt to solve and what new features they want
> to introduce; then they have to write the code.
>
> Once the code is written, the coder then has to decide what nomenclature
> to use when describing the software and the effects it has. In this case
> centered around systemd a word was chosen: "reliable".
>
> Some will think it's a good name, some don't care, some will think it's
> a bad name; and all of those things are basically irrelevant because the
> name doesn't tell you much abut what the software will do. Reading the
> fine manual will tell you that. It's all a part of being human because
> our languages are imprecise, heavily overloaded and hugely redundant. So
> are our spellings. But we are stuck with it because that's the general
> emergent behaviour of a homo sapiens brain.
>
> Arguing abut this is about as nonsensical as arguing about whether "lee"
> is a good handle on a forum or not. To a pedant it's a bad name, one
> can't tell if you are male, female or if it's actually an Asian family
> name
>
> Or one could do what most folk do, and not see a problem with 3 letters

I agree.

What I don't agree with is that unrecognisable names generally make
things easier (though they can, depending on the circumstances).

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Rich Freeman <ri...@gentoo.org> writes:

> On Mon, Dec 26, 2016 at 5:47 PM, lee <l...@yagibdah.de> wrote:
>>
>> Yes, and that doesn't show me news before I sync, or does it?
>>
>
> Correct.
>
> The order to do this in is:
>
> Sync
> Read news.
> Apply updates.

sounds reasonable

> Syncing doesn't affect anything other than /usr/portage (or wherever
> you're keeping it).

Well, kinda?  When you emerge something after syncing, a newer version
might be picked than otherwise?

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: should everything compile?

[lee]

Holger Hoffstätte <hol...@applied-asynchrony.com> writes:

> On Mon, 26 Dec 2016 22:25:59 +0100, lee wrote:
>
>> Holger Hoffstätte <hol...@applied-asynchrony.com> writes:
>> 
>>> On Mon, 26 Dec 2016 21:09:08 +0100, lee wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>> 
>>>> there are some things that refuse to compile.  One of them is
>>>> openimageio.
>>>> 
>>>> Is this a bug, or am I missing something?  Do I need to update something
>>>> else first?
>>>
>>> The latter, sort of. The error in question..
>>>
>> 
>>> [...]
>>>> | ../libOpenImageIO/libOpenImageIO.so.1.6.13: undefined reference to 
>>>> `Imf_2_1::Header::name[abi:cxx11]() const'
>>>> | ../libOpenImageIO/libOpenImageIO.so.1.6.13: undefined reference to 
>>>> `Imf_2_1::Header::setType(std::__cxx11::basic_string<char, 
>>>> std::char_traits, std::allocator > const&)'
>>>> | ../libOpenImageIO/libOpenImageIO.so.1.6.13: undefined reference to
>>>> | `Imf_2_1::TypedAttribute<std::__cxx11::basic_string<char,
>>>> | std::char_traits, std::allocator >
>>>> | >::writeValueTo(Imf_2_1::OStream&, int) const'
>>>> | collect2: error: ld returned 1 exit status
>>> [..]
>>>
>>> ..indicates a mismatch in C++11 ABI which changed in gcc5. What happens is 
>>> that one the
>>> dependencies of openimageio was built against the old C++11 std::string ABI 
>>> (hence the
>>> link errors), and needs to be rebuilt. It looks to be "Imf" aka libIlmImf,
>>> whatever that is. Try to rebuild it with --oneshot and it should work.
>>> If a similar error pops up for a different dependency, repeat. :)
>> 
>> Hm, this is really bad because it's difficult to figure out what needs
>> to be rebuilt.  Is there a way to rebuild everything in some order that
>> works?
>
> equery b  or epm -qif tells you which package a file belongs to.
> Purely by searching vie emerge -s it looks like libIlmImf could be
> media-libs/ilmbase.

Yes, I have rebuilt those, and others, using trial and error to figure
out what needs to be rebuilt.

> A full-system approach (probably better in your case) is explained here:
> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Upgrading_from_gcc-4.x_to_gcc-5.x

Thanks!  Seems all I need to do is the 'revdep-rebuild', which is now
running.

I hope I don't end up with an unbootable system ...

>> Here's the next one already, and what would I need to rebuild for that?
>
> That looks like a completely different problem (hard to tell from the error)
> but in any case _fix one problem at a time_.

That was some more packages that needed to be rebuilt.

The only thing that doesn't compile yet is cinelerra, which I don't
need for now.  Maybe it works once all the libraries are rebuilt.

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Alan McKinnon <alan.mckin...@gmail.com> writes:

> On 26/12/2016 20:24, lee wrote:
>> Rich Freeman <ri...@gentoo.org> writes:
>> 
>>> On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 8:52 PM, lee <l...@yagibdah.de> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I didn't see portage or anything else give me any instructions or
>>>> warnings about this.  The names just suddenly changed, and that screwed
>>>> things up.
>>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.gentoo.org/support/news-items/2013-03-29-udev-upgrade.html
>>>
>>> This shows up in eselect news list (and so on), and portage will tell
>> 
>> I never use that because I find it very awkward.  Why doesn't portage
>> just send me the news by email?
>
> It will if you set it up that way.

Oh I should do that then.

> It's not a default because portage
> doesn't know your email address (unless you want to deliver mail locally
> to root's mbox)

It could simply ask me.  Now I need to figure out how to make it send
mails.

>>> you when you have unread news items.  Note that it only shows up if
>>> you have >>
>>> Generally you want to read those BEFORE you go installing packages,
>>> since it may pertain to a package you're about to update.
>> 
>> Updating usually affects over 200 packages.  What's a good way to read
>> the news in advance?
>
> I think you are conflating news with something else, perhaps elogs. Rich
> means to run "eselect news list".

Yes, and that doesn't show me news before I sync, or does it?

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Alan McKinnon <alan.mckin...@gmail.com> writes:

> On 26/12/2016 21:42, lee wrote:
>> Well, I guess you haven't realised yet that reality doesn't exist.
>> Bubbles are a self-imposed limit for those who believe in reality.
>> You probably hit that wall and now try hard to remain confined.
>> 
>> Unfortunately, this won't make sense to you until you come to realise.
>
>
> I *strongly* recommend you cease insulting people's intelligence on this
> list.

It was not my intention to do that, and if I did, I apologize.

Different people realise different things.  There are many things I will
never realise and others I have.  There are things I won't understand
before I have realised what is necessary to realise to understand them.
Finding that someone won't understand something before they have
realised something doesn't insult anyones intelligence.


> This list (gentoo-user) contains the brightest minds, widest range of
> experience (both CS-related and just generally in life), most articulate
> and surprisingly, most tolerant, bunch of people I have ever come across
> online; and I've been here for 10 years and doing online for 20+ years
> and the above is not meant idly.
>
> I can't watch you type and I can't get in your headspace but based just
> on what I read from you, your communications say something that is
> frankly, very insulting to those individuals. There is no need to
> disparage someone else just because their frame of reference differs
> from yours.
>
> Alan
>
> p.s. You have a very long way to go still before you begin to match
> Dale's contributions here.

So this is supposed to be a competition?

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Dale <rdalek1...@gmail.com> writes:

> lee wrote:
>> Dale <rdalek1...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> lee wrote:
>>>> Dale <rdalek1...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> lee wrote:
>>>>>> Dale <rdalek1...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> lee wrote:
>>>>>>>> Dale <rdalek1...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I didn't go look at boards I had around here.  I went to a major
>>>>>>>> computer supplier, newegg, and looked at what they had.  Go back and
>>>>>>>> read again what I did and maybe read it more carefully. 
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Might I also add, it's more than just me that has pointed out that you
>>>>>>>> are not correct on this.  It's a few others as well.  You ever stop to
>>>>>>>> think that what you observe is not the normal and certainly not the
>>>>>>>> default?  If what you claim was even remotely accurate, newegg would
>>>>>>>> have had a lot larger number of boards with two ports on it.  Thing is,
>>>>>>>> they didn't.  Kai pointed out that the same is true in Europe.  
>>>>>>>> Why would I assume that what someone else observes is a default?
>>>>>>>> Besides, I don't see what problem you're having with this.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then why would what you observe also be claimed to be the default?   As
>>>>>>> I also pointed out, it's not just what I observe, it's what I and others
>>>>>>> have observed as well.  So far, you are the only person claiming that
>>>>>>> two ports on a home user board is the default.  I have not seen anyone
>>>>>>> else post that you are correct.  Others have posted that you are not
>>>>>>> correct tho. 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The problem is, you claim that having two ports is the default.  It is
>>>>>>> not the default.  I've said it, even researched it and explained how I
>>>>>>> researched it, others have also posted the same point.  Just because you
>>>>>>> have boards with two ports does not mean it is a default.  Given the
>>>>>>> research I did, it isn't even close.  Boards with two ports for a home
>>>>>>> user is not only not the default, it's somewhat rare.  Out of the top 72
>>>>>>> boards I checked, only a couple or so had two ports.  That is far from
>>>>>>> being the default.  That is quite rare.  Even if it was 5 boards, that
>>>>>>> would be under 10%.  That is hardly something to call a default.  If it
>>>>>>> were say 50%, then one could at least argue that the default is moving
>>>>>>> to having two ports.  It's just not the case. 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The sooner you figure that out the better for you. 
>>>>>> And eating rice is the default because so many people do it ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> .
>>>>>>
>>>>> You can claim that having two ports is the default but that isn't
>>>>> supported by a single fact.  As I said, the only person who thinks it is
>>>>> a default is you.  The default would be set by the manufacturers.  Since
>>>>> what is manufactured has to be sold, one good way to find out what the
>>>>> default is, go look at what is being sold.  When you see something that
>>>>> is common, like say four USB ports, then that is the default.  Another
>>>>> example, if most all boards have five PCI-e slots, then that is the
>>>>> default.  If you want six slots, seven slots or more, then you are
>>>>> likely going to pay extra and have fewer buying options because that is
>>>>> not the default. 
>>>>>
>>>>> Using your logic, no one eats rice since so much of it is grown and
>>>>> sold.  If rice was not grown and not sold, then your logic would work. 
>>>>> So, your post doesn't even make sense.  The manufacturers of boards by a
>>>>> large margin puts one ethernet port on a home use board and even most
>>>>> office computers only need one port.  If one goes and looks at what is
>>>>> being manufactured and

Re: [gentoo-user] Installing Gentoo on a VPS with little RAM

[lee]

Francesco Turco  writes:

> Hello.
>
> I have a Vultr VPS instance with Arch Linux but I'd like to replace it
> with Gentoo Linux. The last time I tried that I couldn't build some
> packages because the kernel killed gcc after a while. Please notice this
> VPS instance has only 768 MiB of RAM. What can I try besides removing
> -pipe from C(XX)FLAGS and setting MAKEOPTS to -j1? Should I add a swap
> partition? Currently there's only a single root btrfs filesystem with @,
> @boot and @home subvolumes. Btrfs doesn't support a swap file as far as
> I know.

You could verify if it really does run out of memory.  If that happens,
adding a swap file or a swap partition or more memory might help.

> My VPS is currently used for the following things:
> - Static personal website
> - Shaarli (PHP application with no database)
> - Tiny Tiny RSS (PHP application with database)
> - ZNC server
>
> Thanks.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: should everything compile?

[lee]

Holger Hoffstätte <hol...@applied-asynchrony.com> writes:

> On Mon, 26 Dec 2016 21:09:08 +0100, lee wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>> 
>> there are some things that refuse to compile.  One of them is
>> openimageio.
>> 
>> Is this a bug, or am I missing something?  Do I need to update something
>> else first?
>
> The latter, sort of. The error in question..
>

> [...]
>> | ../libOpenImageIO/libOpenImageIO.so.1.6.13: undefined reference to 
>> `Imf_2_1::Header::name[abi:cxx11]() const'
>> | ../libOpenImageIO/libOpenImageIO.so.1.6.13: undefined reference to 
>> `Imf_2_1::Header::setType(std::__cxx11::basic_string<char, 
>> std::char_traits, std::allocator > const&)'
>> | ../libOpenImageIO/libOpenImageIO.so.1.6.13: undefined reference to
>> | `Imf_2_1::TypedAttribute<std::__cxx11::basic_string<char,
>> | std::char_traits, std::allocator >
>> | >::writeValueTo(Imf_2_1::OStream&, int) const'
>> | collect2: error: ld returned 1 exit status
> [..]
>
> ..indicates a mismatch in C++11 ABI which changed in gcc5. What happens is 
> that one the
> dependencies of openimageio was built against the old C++11 std::string ABI 
> (hence the
> link errors), and needs to be rebuilt. It looks to be "Imf" aka libIlmImf,
> whatever that is. Try to rebuild it with --oneshot and it should work.
> If a similar error pops up for a different dependency, repeat. :)

Hm, this is really bad because it's difficult to figure out what needs
to be rebuilt.  Is there a way to rebuild everything in some order that
works?

Here's the next one already, and what would I need to rebuild for that?
I can remove the package, though there will probably many more that
don't compile.


,
| >>> Emerging (19 of 109) dev-ml/camlp4-4.02.1_p3::gentoo
|  * camlp4-4.02.1_p3.tar.gz SHA256 SHA512 WHIRLPOOL size ;-) ...   

 [ ok ]
| >>> Unpacking source...
| >>> Unpacking camlp4-4.02.1_p3.tar.gz to 
/var/tmp/portage/dev-ml/camlp4-4.02.1_p3/work
| >>> Source unpacked in /var/tmp/portage/dev-ml/camlp4-4.02.1_p3/work
| >>> Preparing source in 
/var/tmp/portage/dev-ml/camlp4-4.02.1_p3/work/camlp4-4.02.1-3 ...
| >>> Source prepared.
| >>> Configuring source in 
/var/tmp/portage/dev-ml/camlp4-4.02.1_p3/work/camlp4-4.02.1-3 ...
| >>> Source configured.
| >>> Compiling source in 
/var/tmp/portage/dev-ml/camlp4-4.02.1_p3/work/camlp4-4.02.1-3 ...
| make -j16 byte 
| ocamlbuild -classic-display -no-ocamlfind  `./build/camlp4-byte-only.sh`
| + echo camlp4/Camlp4.cmo camlp4/Camlp4Top.cmo camlp4/camlp4prof.byte 
camlp4/mkcamlp4.byte camlp4/camlp4.byte camlp4/camlp4fulllib.cma 
camlp4/camlp4boot.byte camlp4/camlp4boot.cma camlp4/camlp4r.byte 
camlp4/camlp4r.cma camlp4/camlp4rf.byte
|  camlp4/camlp4rf.cma camlp4/camlp4o.byte camlp4/camlp4o.cma 
camlp4/camlp4of.byte camlp4/camlp4of.cma camlp4/camlp4oof.byte 
camlp4/camlp4oof.cma camlp4/camlp4orf.byte camlp4/camlp4orf.cma 
camlp4/Camlp4Parsers/Camlp4AstLoader.cmo camlp4/Cam
| lp4Parsers/Camlp4DebugParser.cmo camlp4/Camlp4Parsers/Camlp4GrammarParser.cmo 
camlp4/Camlp4Parsers/Camlp4ListComprehension.cmo 
camlp4/Camlp4Parsers/Camlp4MacroParser.cmo 
camlp4/Camlp4Parsers/Camlp4OCamlOriginalQuotationExpander.cmo camlp4
| /Camlp4Parsers/Camlp4OCamlParser.cmo 
camlp4/Camlp4Parsers/Camlp4OCamlParserParser.cmo 
camlp4/Camlp4Parsers/Camlp4OCamlReloadedParser.cmo 
camlp4/Camlp4Parsers/Camlp4OCamlRevisedParser.cmo 
camlp4/Camlp4Parsers/Camlp4OCamlRevisedParserParser
| .cmo camlp4/Camlp4Parsers/Camlp4OCamlRevisedQuotationExpander.cmo 
camlp4/Camlp4Parsers/Camlp4QuotationCommon.cmo 
camlp4/Camlp4Parsers/Camlp4QuotationExpander.cmo 
camlp4/Camlp4Printers/Camlp4AstDumper.cmo camlp4/Camlp4Printers/Camlp4AutoPr
| inter.cmo camlp4/Camlp4Printers/Camlp4NullDumper.cmo 
camlp4/Camlp4Printers/Camlp4OCamlAstDumper.cmo 
camlp4/Camlp4Printers/Camlp4OCamlPrinter.cmo 
camlp4/Camlp4Printers/Camlp4OCamlRevisedPrinter.cmo 
camlp4/Camlp4Filters/Camlp4AstLifter.cmo 
| camlp4/Camlp4Filters/Camlp4ExceptionTracer.cmo 
camlp4/Camlp4Filters/Camlp4FoldGenerator.cmo 
camlp4/Camlp4Filters/Camlp4LocationStripper.cmo 
camlp4/Camlp4Filters/Camlp4MapGenerator.cmo 
camlp4/Camlp4Filters/Camlp4MetaGenerator.cmo camlp4/Ca
| mlp4Filters/Camlp4Profiler.cmo camlp4/Camlp4Filters/Camlp4TrashRemover.cmo
| /usr/bin/ocamlopt.opt unix.cmxa -I /usr/lib64/ocaml/ocamlbuild 
/usr/lib64/ocaml/ocamlbuild/ocamlbuildlib.cmxa myocamlbuild_config.ml 
myocamlbuild.ml /usr/lib64/ocaml/ocamlbuild/ocamlbuild.cmx -o myocamlbuild
| /usr/bin/ocamldep.opt -modules camlp4/boot/camlp4boot.ml > 
camlp4/boot/camlp4boot.ml.depends
| /usr/bin/ocamldep.opt -modules camlp4/boot/Camlp4.ml

[gentoo-user] should everything compile?

[lee]

Hi,

there are some things that refuse to compile.  One of them is
openimageio.

Is this a bug, or am I missing something?  Do I need to update something
else first?


, [ emerge -a -k @preserved-rebuild ]
| [...]
| >>> Emerging (27 of 35) media-libs/openimageio-1.6.13::gentoo 

[1450/94379]
|  * openimageio-1.6.13.tar.gz SHA256 SHA512 WHIRLPOOL size ;-) ... 

 [ ok ]
| >>> Unpacking source...
| >>> Source unpacked in /var/tmp/portage/media-libs/openimageio-1.6.13/work
| >>> Preparing source in 
/var/tmp/portage/media-libs/openimageio-1.6.13/work/openimageio-1.6.13 ...
| >>> Source prepared.
| >>> Configuring source in 
/var/tmp/portage/media-libs/openimageio-1.6.13/work/openimageio-1.6.13 ...
| >>> Working in BUILD_DIR: 
"/var/tmp/portage/media-libs/openimageio-1.6.13/work/openimageio-1.6.13_build"
| cmake -C 
/var/tmp/portage/media-libs/openimageio-1.6.13/work/openimageio-1.6.13_build/gentoo_common_config.cmake
 -G Unix Makefiles -DCMAKE_INSTALL_PREFIX=/usr -DLIB_INSTALL_DIR=/usr/lib64 
-DBUILDSTATIC=OFF -DLINKSTATIC=OFF -DINSTALL_DOCS=
| OFF -DOIIO_BUILD_TESTS=OFF -DSTOP_ON_WARNING=OFF -DUSE_EXTERNAL_PUGIXML=ON 
-DUSE_FIELD3D=OFF -DUSE_FREETYPE=yes -DUSE_FFMPEG=no -DUSE_GIF=yes 
-DUSE_OCIO=no -DUSE_OPENCV=no -DUSE_OPENGL=yes -DUSE_OPENJPEG=yes 
-DUSE_OPENSSL=yes -DUSE_PYTHON
| =no -DUSE_LIBRAW=no -DUSE_QT=no -DUSE_PYTHON3=OFF -DCMAKE_BUILD_TYPE=Gentoo 
-DCMAKE_USER_MAKE_RULES_OVERRIDE=/var/tmp/portage/media-libs/openimageio-1.6.13/work/openimageio-1.6.13_build/gentoo_rules.cmake
 -DCMAKE_TOOLCHAIN_FILE=/var/tmp/p
| 
ortage/media-libs/openimageio-1.6.13/work/openimageio-1.6.13_build/gentoo_toolchain.cmake
  /var/tmp/portage/media-libs/openimageio-1.6.13/work/openimageio-1.6.13
| loading initial cache file 
/var/tmp/portage/media-libs/openimageio-1.6.13/work/openimageio-1.6.13_build/gentoo_common_config.cmake
| -- The C compiler identification is GNU 5.3.0
| -- The CXX compiler identification is GNU 5.3.0
| -- Check for working C compiler: /usr/bin/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu-gcc
| -- Check for working C compiler: /usr/bin/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu-gcc -- works
| -- Detecting C compiler ABI info
| -- Detecting C compiler ABI info - done
| -- Detecting C compile features
| -- Detecting C compile features - done
| -- Check for working CXX compiler: /usr/bin/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu-g++
| -- Check for working CXX compiler: /usr/bin/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu-g++ -- works
| -- Detecting CXX compiler ABI info
| -- Detecting CXX compiler ABI info - done
| -- Detecting CXX compile features
| -- Detecting CXX compile features - done
| -- Project build dir = 
/var/tmp/portage/media-libs/openimageio-1.6.13/work/openimageio-1.6.13_build
| -- CMAKE_CXX_COMPILER is /usr/bin/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu-g++
| -- CMAKE_CXX_COMPILER_ID is GNU
| -- Setting Namespace to: OpenImageIO
| -- platform = linux64
| -- Boost python support not found -- will not build python components!
| -- OpenColorIO disabled
| -- No Qt4 -- skipping components that need Qt4.
| -- Field3d will not be used
| -- Not using LibRaw
| -- Found OpenSSL: /usr/lib64/libssl.so;/usr/lib64/libcrypto.so (found version 
"1.0.2j") 
| -- OpenSSL enabled
| -- OPENSSL_INCLUDES: /usr/include
| -- FFmpeg plugin will not be built
| -- Field3D plugin will not be built
| -- Raw plugin will not be build
| -- PTex plugin will not be built
| -- 
| 
|WARNING: Qt, OpenGL, or GLEW not found -- 'iv' will not be built!
| 
| -- Could not Find Nuke. Skipping build of Nuke plugins.
| -- 
| 
| Did not find 
/var/tmp/portage/media-libs/openimageio-1.6.13/work/openimageio-1.6.13/../bmpsuite
| --   -> Will not run tests bmp
| --   -> You can find it at http://entropymine.com/jason/bmpsuite/bmpsuite.zip
| 
| -- 
| 
| Did not find 
/var/tmp/portage/media-libs/openimageio-1.6.13/work/openimageio-1.6.13/../libtiffpic
| --   -> Will not run tests tiff-suite;tiff-depths;tiff-misc
| --   -> You can find it at http://www.remotesensing.org/libtiff/images.html
| 
| -- 
| 
| Did not find 
/var/tmp/portage/media-libs/openimageio-1.6.13/work/openimageio-1.6.13/../openexr-images
| --   -> Will not run tests 
openexr-suite;openexr-multires;openexr-chroma;openexr-v2;perchannel
| --   -> You can find it at http://www.openexr.com/downloads.html
| 
| -- 
| 
| Did not find 
/var/tmp/portage/media-libs/openimageio-1.6.13/work/openimageio-1.6.13/../oiio-images
| --   -> Will not run tests gif
| --   -> You can find it at Recent checkout of oiio-images
| 
| -- 
| 
| Did not find 
/var/tmp/portage/media-libs/openimageio-1.6.13/work/openimageio-1.6.13/../j2kp4files_v1_5
| --   -> Will not run tests jpeg2000
| --   -> You can find it at 
http://www.itu.int/net/ITU-T/sigdb/speimage/ImageForm-s.aspx?val=10100803
| 

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Dale <rdalek1...@gmail.com> writes:

> lee wrote:
>> Dale <rdalek1...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> lee wrote:
>>>> Dale <rdalek1...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> lee wrote:
>>>>>> Dale <rdalek1...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I didn't go look at boards I had around here.  I went to a major
>>>>>> computer supplier, newegg, and looked at what they had.  Go back and
>>>>>> read again what I did and maybe read it more carefully. 
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Might I also add, it's more than just me that has pointed out that you
>>>>>> are not correct on this.  It's a few others as well.  You ever stop to
>>>>>> think that what you observe is not the normal and certainly not the
>>>>>> default?  If what you claim was even remotely accurate, newegg would
>>>>>> have had a lot larger number of boards with two ports on it.  Thing is,
>>>>>> they didn't.  Kai pointed out that the same is true in Europe.  
>>>>>> Why would I assume that what someone else observes is a default?
>>>>>> Besides, I don't see what problem you're having with this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Then why would what you observe also be claimed to be the default?   As
>>>>> I also pointed out, it's not just what I observe, it's what I and others
>>>>> have observed as well.  So far, you are the only person claiming that
>>>>> two ports on a home user board is the default.  I have not seen anyone
>>>>> else post that you are correct.  Others have posted that you are not
>>>>> correct tho. 
>>>>>
>>>>> The problem is, you claim that having two ports is the default.  It is
>>>>> not the default.  I've said it, even researched it and explained how I
>>>>> researched it, others have also posted the same point.  Just because you
>>>>> have boards with two ports does not mean it is a default.  Given the
>>>>> research I did, it isn't even close.  Boards with two ports for a home
>>>>> user is not only not the default, it's somewhat rare.  Out of the top 72
>>>>> boards I checked, only a couple or so had two ports.  That is far from
>>>>> being the default.  That is quite rare.  Even if it was 5 boards, that
>>>>> would be under 10%.  That is hardly something to call a default.  If it
>>>>> were say 50%, then one could at least argue that the default is moving
>>>>> to having two ports.  It's just not the case. 
>>>>>
>>>>> The sooner you figure that out the better for you. 
>>>> And eating rice is the default because so many people do it ...
>>>>
>>>> .
>>>>
>>> You can claim that having two ports is the default but that isn't
>>> supported by a single fact.  As I said, the only person who thinks it is
>>> a default is you.  The default would be set by the manufacturers.  Since
>>> what is manufactured has to be sold, one good way to find out what the
>>> default is, go look at what is being sold.  When you see something that
>>> is common, like say four USB ports, then that is the default.  Another
>>> example, if most all boards have five PCI-e slots, then that is the
>>> default.  If you want six slots, seven slots or more, then you are
>>> likely going to pay extra and have fewer buying options because that is
>>> not the default. 
>>>
>>> Using your logic, no one eats rice since so much of it is grown and
>>> sold.  If rice was not grown and not sold, then your logic would work. 
>>> So, your post doesn't even make sense.  The manufacturers of boards by a
>>> large margin puts one ethernet port on a home use board and even most
>>> office computers only need one port.  If one goes and looks at what is
>>> being manufactured and sold, they would be able to see that.  Of course,
>>> some people can't see it even when several people post the facts.  It
>>> seems some will never get the idea. 
>> Rice is not eaten much around here, so it's not the default type of
>> food.
>>
>> Besides, people buy what is being manufactured.  If all boards were
>> manufactured with 4 ports, it wouldn't stop ppl from buying them, and if
>> no rice was grown, it wouldn't stop ppl from eating (if sufficient
>> quantities of other types of food were available).
>>
&g

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Tom H <tomh0...@gmail.com> writes:

> On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 9:07 PM, lee <l...@yagibdah.de> wrote:
>> Tom H <tomh0...@gmail.com> writes:
>>> On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 3:07 PM, Daniel Frey <djqf...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> It is even more frustrating that these so-called predictable network
>>>> names actually can change on a reboot, it's happened to me more than
>>>> once when multiple network cards are detected in a different order.
>>>
>>>>From Kay Sievers in [1]:
>>>
>>> 
>>> Btw, predictable means it will not change between reboots, that names
>>> will not depend on enumeration order within the same setup. It does
>>> not mean or promise, that added kernel/driver/firmware features will
>>> not result in different names. That is expected behavior.
>>> 
>>>
>>> [1] 
>>> https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2015-October/034614.html
>>
>> So the names will not change when rebooting and are to be expected to
>> possibly change at any time.
>>
>> How is that more reliable?
>
> It's more reliable than using the kernel's names because the names
> won't change UNLESS there's kernel/driver/firmware change for that
> NIC. I doubt that these changes occur that often. Perhaps someone else
> knows.

What happens more often:  That a network card is replaced with a
different one or that the software changes?

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Rich Freeman <ri...@gentoo.org> writes:

> On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 8:52 PM, lee <l...@yagibdah.de> wrote:
>>
>> I didn't see portage or anything else give me any instructions or
>> warnings about this.  The names just suddenly changed, and that screwed
>> things up.
>>
>
> https://www.gentoo.org/support/news-items/2013-03-29-udev-upgrade.html
>
> This shows up in eselect news list (and so on), and portage will tell

I never use that because I find it very awkward.  Why doesn't portage
just send me the news by email?

> you when you have unread news items.  Note that it only shows up if
> you have 
> Generally you want to read those BEFORE you go installing packages,
> since it may pertain to a package you're about to update.

Updating usually affects over 200 packages.  What's a good way to read
the news in advance?


> The original news item was less detailed, and IMO probably a bit
> easier to read.  Additional stuff was added to it later from the looks
> of it.  It isn't hard to read per-se, but there is a lot more going on
> in it.
>
> If you want to disable predictable network names then that is covered in #4.

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Tom H <tomh0...@gmail.com> writes:

> On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 8:57 PM, lee <l...@yagibdah.de> wrote:
>> Tom H <tomh0...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>
>>> [1] There's no need to learn/use the udev rules syntax. I use the
>>> following in "/etc/systemd/network/" on a Debian 8 system with
>>> sysvinit-as-pid1:
>>>
>>> [Match]
>>> MACAddress=can't_be_bothered_to_look_it_up
>>> [Link]
>>> Name=en0
>>
>> Thanks!
>
> You're welcome.
>
>
>> What happens when you replace the card with another one that has a
>> different MAC? Shouldn't an assignment like this rather go by the
>> unrecognisable name? I'd find that more consistent.
>
> AFAIK, you have three possibilities.
>
> 1) If you're renaming a NIC via its MAC address, you have to edit the
> config file thatlinks the NIC's names and its MAC address.
>
> 2) If you're using udev's predictable names, the NIC'll have the same
> (more or less complex) name if you use the same slot.
>
> 3) If you're using the kernel names, you have no guarantee that ethX
> will be assigned to the same NIC at every bot.

So there's no good option because names may change unless you make and
maintain an assignment.  I wonder why that isn't the default ...

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Neil Bothwick <n...@digimed.co.uk> writes:

> On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 02:52:54 +0100, lee wrote:
>
>> >> I only know what the names are when I can look them up when the
>> >> computer is running.  I don't call that "predictable".  
>
> That's because you are using a different definition of predictable from
> that intended.

I'm not using a definition but understanding.  If you are about
definitions, then you should invent a new word by using the intended
definition and call the unrecognisable names by your new word.

>> > If they are constructed according to specific rules, they are
>> > predictable, by definition.  
>> 
>> You're overlooking that you need to know exactly, in advance, what the
>> rules are applied to, and all the rules, for having a chance that your
>> prediction turns out to be correct.
>
> So how do you write udev rules to rename ports without knowing the
> specifics of the hardware?

I don't.

> How do you know which port will be eth0 and which will be eth1 the first
> time you boot if you use no renaming?

I don't, I only know that they will be called eth0 and eth1.  With
unrecognisable names, I don't know anything.

> I really don't see your objection to a setting that, while a default, is
> trivial to change, even before you boot the installed distro for the
> first time. It is clearly useful to others, otherwise they would not have
> invested time and effort in implementing. If, in doing so, they had ruled
> out all alternatives, you would have a point. Those alternative are still
> there, so all you are doing is whining.

That's the usual method of calling something "whining" when someone has
run out of arguments and/or doesn't understand what someone else is
saying.

> No one has taken away your choice to do things how you see fit, why do
> you want to do the same for others.
>
> The choices are there, why not just use the one you want and leave others
> to use what they want.

Where did I say that anyone must use particular names for their network
interfaces?

It's the other way round in that the unrecognisable names have been
forced upon everyone because they were made the default.  You can either
use them or change them, and both requires additional work.  Why wasn't
the extra work forced upon those who want to use the unrecognisable
names?

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Alan McKinnon <alan.mckin...@gmail.com> writes:

> On 24/12/2016 03:52, lee wrote:
>> Neil Bothwick <n...@digimed.co.uk> writes:
>> 
>>> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 04:15:50 +0100, lee wrote:
>>>
>>>>> There are no config files to edit with the predictable names, the
>>>>> names are created from the physical location of the port.  That's why
>>>>> they are called predictable,  
>>>>
>>>> I only know what the names are when I can look them up when the computer
>>>> is running.  I don't call that "predictable".
>>>
>>> If they are constructed according to specific rules, they are
>>> predictable, by definition.
>> 
>> You're overlooking that you need to know exactly, in advance, what the
>> rules are applied to, and all the rules, for having a chance that your
>> prediction turns out to be correct.  Provided you know all that, you can
>> predict the universe, assuming that everything always goes according to
>> rules.  You can not prove that it does and only disprove that it does
>> when you find a case in which it doesn't.  So what's your definition and
>> your predictions worth?
>
> You keep mis-defining what "predictable" means in this context. It does
> not mean, in the style of Newton, that you will always know everything
> about it. Neither is it the same meaning as prediction in the context of
> a scientific theory.
>
> "prediction" here simply means that the interface name is guaranteed to
> be the same as it was on last boot, and the somewhat random nature of
> kernael names (ethX, wlanX) is not in play.
>
> It does NOT mean that you are guaranteed to know exactly what an
> interface will be called before you boot it for the first time.
>
> Rename "predictable names" to "already known names" if it makes you feel
> better. There's nothing wrong with this definition of predictable, as it
> satisfies it's own rules and is consistent within itself. It is not
> complete though but we already know that from Godel.
>
> As long as you keep trying to apply the wrong meaning of predictable to
> this situation, you will keep typing mails like this one I'm replying to
> where you argue about something that is not even there. You also can't
> realistically argue about what "predictable" means because like almost
> all human concepts it is not a singularity, rather it is a spectrum
> where it means what the author says it means.
>
> And the quote for that meaning has already been posted in this thread
> somewhere.

Seriously?

Predicting something means to tell something in advance.  You are trying
to defend a wrong usage of language here.

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Dale <rdalek1...@gmail.com> writes:

> lee wrote:
>> Dale <rdalek1...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> lee wrote:
>>>> Dale <rdalek1...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>> I didn't go look at boards I had around here.  I went to a major
>>>> computer supplier, newegg, and looked at what they had.  Go back and
>>>> read again what I did and maybe read it more carefully. 
>>>>
>>>> Might I also add, it's more than just me that has pointed out that you
>>>> are not correct on this.  It's a few others as well.  You ever stop to
>>>> think that what you observe is not the normal and certainly not the
>>>> default?  If what you claim was even remotely accurate, newegg would
>>>> have had a lot larger number of boards with two ports on it.  Thing is,
>>>> they didn't.  Kai pointed out that the same is true in Europe.  
>>>> Why would I assume that what someone else observes is a default?
>>>> Besides, I don't see what problem you're having with this.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Then why would what you observe also be claimed to be the default?   As
>>> I also pointed out, it's not just what I observe, it's what I and others
>>> have observed as well.  So far, you are the only person claiming that
>>> two ports on a home user board is the default.  I have not seen anyone
>>> else post that you are correct.  Others have posted that you are not
>>> correct tho. 
>>>
>>> The problem is, you claim that having two ports is the default.  It is
>>> not the default.  I've said it, even researched it and explained how I
>>> researched it, others have also posted the same point.  Just because you
>>> have boards with two ports does not mean it is a default.  Given the
>>> research I did, it isn't even close.  Boards with two ports for a home
>>> user is not only not the default, it's somewhat rare.  Out of the top 72
>>> boards I checked, only a couple or so had two ports.  That is far from
>>> being the default.  That is quite rare.  Even if it was 5 boards, that
>>> would be under 10%.  That is hardly something to call a default.  If it
>>> were say 50%, then one could at least argue that the default is moving
>>> to having two ports.  It's just not the case. 
>>>
>>> The sooner you figure that out the better for you. 
>> And eating rice is the default because so many people do it ...
>>
>> .
>>
>
> You can claim that having two ports is the default but that isn't
> supported by a single fact.  As I said, the only person who thinks it is
> a default is you.  The default would be set by the manufacturers.  Since
> what is manufactured has to be sold, one good way to find out what the
> default is, go look at what is being sold.  When you see something that
> is common, like say four USB ports, then that is the default.  Another
> example, if most all boards have five PCI-e slots, then that is the
> default.  If you want six slots, seven slots or more, then you are
> likely going to pay extra and have fewer buying options because that is
> not the default. 
>
> Using your logic, no one eats rice since so much of it is grown and
> sold.  If rice was not grown and not sold, then your logic would work. 
> So, your post doesn't even make sense.  The manufacturers of boards by a
> large margin puts one ethernet port on a home use board and even most
> office computers only need one port.  If one goes and looks at what is
> being manufactured and sold, they would be able to see that.  Of course,
> some people can't see it even when several people post the facts.  It
> seems some will never get the idea. 

Rice is not eaten much around here, so it's not the default type of
food.

Besides, people buy what is being manufactured.  If all boards were
manufactured with 4 ports, it wouldn't stop ppl from buying them, and if
no rice was grown, it wouldn't stop ppl from eating (if sufficient
quantities of other types of food were available).

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Martin Vaeth <mar...@mvath.de> writes:

> lee <l...@yagibdah.de> wrote:
>>
>> So the names will not change when rebooting and are to be expected to
>> possibly change at any time.
>
> /at any time/when you open the computer and mess around with the hardware/

That's not what is said the quote.

> Your whining in many postings becomes meanwhile unbearable.

Ah, again the usual method of bringing up "whining" when someone runs
out of arguments and/or doesn't understand.

> Just face the facts:
> Unless somebody comes up with an ingenious new idea there are
> essentially only 3 possibilities:

I have brought up another idea which you have chosen to ignore.

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Neil Bothwick <n...@digimed.co.uk> writes:

> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 04:15:50 +0100, lee wrote:
>
>> > There are no config files to edit with the predictable names, the
>> > names are created from the physical location of the port.  That's why
>> > they are called predictable,  
>> 
>> I only know what the names are when I can look them up when the computer
>> is running.  I don't call that "predictable".
>
> If they are constructed according to specific rules, they are
> predictable, by definition.

You're overlooking that you need to know exactly, in advance, what the
rules are applied to, and all the rules, for having a chance that your
prediction turns out to be correct.  Provided you know all that, you can
predict the universe, assuming that everything always goes according to
rules.  You can not prove that it does and only disprove that it does
when you find a case in which it doesn't.  So what's your definition and
your predictions worth?

>> They were much more predictable before because I could be reasonably
>> sure that each of the ports would be called 'ethN', starting with N = 0,
> "Reasonably sure" is not predictable.

It's still better than something entirely unpredictable.

Show me that the names are predictable by writing them down, then
grabbing an arbitrary computer and plugging in a network card the
port(s) of which will then have the names you wrote down.

> A lot of this stuff is designed to
> make automated management easier, so editing rules or config files is
> undesirable. It is more about being able to automatically provision and
> configure new systems, whether hardware or virtual.

How does it help with that?  Wouldn't it help even more if you could
just give them the names you wanted them to have?

Like if you have N machines with an interface each you want to do
something with, the only thing you'd have to do is make sure that this
interface gets the right name assigned.

With unrecognisable names, the interface can still have a different name
on each machine.  What's the advantage of that?

>> unless I changed a card for a different one after an udev rule had
>> already been created.
>
> and being able to make changes without messing with the rest of your
> system. I stand by my previous analogy of disk devices nodes vs UUIDs.

Are they predictable?

> One is readable the other is safe. Yes, you can use filesystem labels,
> which can be both, but that requires intervention, just like your udev
> rules. That doesn't make either approach wrong, just suited to different
> purposes.

And I would find it much better if network ports had recognisable names
without intervention.

>> > unless you move the NIC to a different PCI slot, it will always have
>> > the same name, no matter what other hardware you add or remove. Yes,
>> > the names are cumbersome, but they have to be like that to guarantee
>> > their uniqueness.  
>> 
>> You don't need to defend the unrecognisable names.  The names used for
>> referring to network ports don't need to be like that.
>
> No they don't. It is merely one solution to the problem, and the names
> are recognisable, Alan posted the key earlier. They are complex and may
> look cryptic until you understand them, but so is English.

They don't become any more recognisable by knowing the rules.  They
simply remain a combination of letters and numbers which is difficult to
recognise.

>> The perceived advantage lies in being able to refer to network ports in
>> a more reliable way, and I don't see how using unrecognisable names
>> instead of recognisable ones would make anything easier.
>
> See above re automation. It doesn't really matter whether you see the
> need or not. If you don't have the need, don't use it, they are an
> option for those who do want them.

Unfortunately, that option has been made the default.

>> It would have made things easier if the problem had been solved by
>> giving them recognisable names (or aliases) by default --- or even if
>> the default names (aliases) were the same as the unrecognisable names
>> --- and allowing to easily configure the names (aliases) actually used
>> to refer to the ports.
>
> That's a good point, and surely doable with udev rules, making the whole
> argument moot. I haven't investigated because I don't have the need, but
> I would be interested to hear what you discover.
>  and not that unrecognisable once you understand the systax.

I haven't investigated either because I figured there isn't much point
in it because if I wanted recognisable names, I would have to put some
extra work into every machine, which isn't a good option.  In the long
run, it might be less time consuming to use recognisable names, but who
knows 

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Dale <rdalek1...@gmail.com> writes:

> lee wrote:
>> Dale <rdalek1...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>> I didn't go look at boards I had around here.  I went to a major
>> computer supplier, newegg, and looked at what they had.  Go back and
>> read again what I did and maybe read it more carefully. 
>>
>> Might I also add, it's more than just me that has pointed out that you
>> are not correct on this.  It's a few others as well.  You ever stop to
>> think that what you observe is not the normal and certainly not the
>> default?  If what you claim was even remotely accurate, newegg would
>> have had a lot larger number of boards with two ports on it.  Thing is,
>> they didn't.  Kai pointed out that the same is true in Europe.  
>> Why would I assume that what someone else observes is a default?
>> Besides, I don't see what problem you're having with this.
>>
>>
>
> Then why would what you observe also be claimed to be the default?   As
> I also pointed out, it's not just what I observe, it's what I and others
> have observed as well.  So far, you are the only person claiming that
> two ports on a home user board is the default.  I have not seen anyone
> else post that you are correct.  Others have posted that you are not
> correct tho. 
>
> The problem is, you claim that having two ports is the default.  It is
> not the default.  I've said it, even researched it and explained how I
> researched it, others have also posted the same point.  Just because you
> have boards with two ports does not mean it is a default.  Given the
> research I did, it isn't even close.  Boards with two ports for a home
> user is not only not the default, it's somewhat rare.  Out of the top 72
> boards I checked, only a couple or so had two ports.  That is far from
> being the default.  That is quite rare.  Even if it was 5 boards, that
> would be under 10%.  That is hardly something to call a default.  If it
> were say 50%, then one could at least argue that the default is moving
> to having two ports.  It's just not the case. 
>
> The sooner you figure that out the better for you. 

And eating rice is the default because so many people do it ...

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Tom H  writes:

> On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 3:07 PM, Daniel Frey  wrote:
>>
>> It is even more frustrating that these so-called predictable network
>> names actually can change on a reboot, it's happened to me more than
>> once when multiple network cards are detected in a different order.
>
>>From Kay Sievers in [1]:
>
> 
> Btw, predictable means it will not change between reboots, that names
> will not depend on enumeration order within the same setup. It does
> not mean or promise, that added kernel/driver/firmware features will
> not result in different names. That is expected behavior.
> 
>
> [1] 
> https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2015-October/034614.html

So the names will not change when rebooting and are to be expected to
possibly change at any time.

How is that more reliable?

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Tom H <tomh0...@gmail.com> writes:

> On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 3:56 AM, Neil Bothwick <n...@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 04:15:50 +0100, lee wrote:
>>>
>>> The perceived advantage lies in being able to refer to network ports
>>> in a more reliable way, and I don't see how using unrecognisable
>>> names instead of recognisable ones would make anything easier.
>>
>> See above re automation. It doesn't really matter whether you see the
>> need or not. If you don't have the need, don't use it, they are an
>> option for those who do want them.
>
> All of this whining about predictable NIC names would be more or less
> OK if there wasn't an easy way to override them in
> "/{lib,etc}/systemd/network/" (even on a non-systemd system, see [1])
> or in "/etc/udev/rules.d/"!
>
> [1] There's no need to learn/use the udev rules syntax. I use the
> following in "/etc/systemd/network/" on a Debian 8 system with
> sysvinit-as-pid1:
>
> [Match]
> MACAddress=can't_be_bothered_to_look_it_up
> [Link]
> Name=en0

Thanks!

What happens when you replace the card with another one that has a
different MAC?  Shouldn't an assignment like this rather go by the
unrecognisable name?  I'd find that more consistent.

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Neil Bothwick <n...@digimed.co.uk> writes:

> On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 22:48:29 +0100, lee wrote:
>
>> > You can't switch any two names because the udev rules are run singly,
>> > so at one point you will be trying to rename an interface with a name
>> > that is already in use.  
>> 
>> I mean more like renaming them on the fly --- or by having a
>> configuration file with key:value pairs like 'enp69s0f1:eth3' --- or
>> perhaps triples like 'enp69s0f1:eth3:"DMZ Interface"'.
>
> In that case you may as well leave the unique names in place and set up
> recognisable aliases.

Sure, you can call the names you pick aliases.  Can that be done?  Not
as in "going back to the old way", but as described.

>> That way, you could have a recognisable name (or several names) for
>> every unrecognisable one and assume that "eth3" or "foo" or however you
>> want to call it is the same interface just as much as you would with
>> unrecognisable names --- plus the advantage that when you ever need to
>> change an interface, you only need to edit one small file rather than
>> various configurations files having the unrecognisable name(s) in them.
>
> There are no config files to edit with the predictable names, the
> names are created from the physical location of the port.  That's why
> they are called predictable,

I only know what the names are when I can look them up when the computer
is running.  I don't call that "predictable".

They were much more predictable before because I could be reasonably
sure that each of the ports would be called 'ethN', starting with N = 0,
unless I changed a card for a different one after an udev rule had
already been created.  Now I can only assume that they will be called
something.

> unless you move the NIC to a different PCI slot, it will always have
> the same name, no matter what other hardware you add or remove. Yes,
> the names are cumbersome, but they have to be like that to guarantee
> their uniqueness.

You don't need to defend the unrecognisable names.  The names used for
referring to network ports don't need to be like that.

The perceived advantage lies in being able to refer to network ports in
a more reliable way, and I don't see how using unrecognisable names
instead of recognisable ones would make anything easier.

It would have made things easier if the problem had been solved by
giving them recognisable names (or aliases) by default --- or even if
the default names (aliases) were the same as the unrecognisable names
--- and allowing to easily configure the names (aliases) actually used
to refer to the ports.

Being able to refer to things in more reliable ways improves the quality
of the software.  Using unrecognisable names for things reduces the
quality.

This is like you're defending a type of new pliers.  The old ones didn't
hold stuff as securely as the new ones do, but the new ones require that
you use both hands to use them.  The new pliers can provide an advantage
for instances in which you do have to hold something very securely ---
and in which another tool, like a vice, might be more appropriate anyway
--- but for most of the time, they hinder you doing your work because
they're so unwieldy.  Of course, you call the new pliers "more secure
pliers" rather than "unwieldy pliers", because that makes them easier to
sell.

Alas, "improvements" just like this seem to become more and more common,
replacing actual improvements: The king gets new garments not seldom
times, yet twice a day, and those who cry deceit are called not children
but trolls.

But who knows, perhaps it is now possible to easily, on the fly, name
the network ports through a neat configuration file.  I'm merely asking
if there is because I don't know and would find that very useful.

> How often you you have to type interface names anyway, and how many of
> those are in a shell with tab completion that takes care of it for
> you?

None of them are, and I don't type the names.  They require copy and
paste, or very careful and tedious typing after looking them up.

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Neil Bothwick <n...@digimed.co.uk> writes:

> On Tue, 20 Dec 2016 23:11:08 +0100, lee wrote:
>
>> >> But you already heard of udev rules? I guess I mentioned them
>> >> already. They are not so hard to write and they only need to be
>> >> written once.  
>> >
>> > It's too late by then, if eth0 and eth1 already exist, you cannot
>> > switch them with udev rules - as anyone who had worked with dual NICs
>> > would have discovered.  
>> 
>> Can you switch them when they have unrecognisable names?
>
> You can't switch any two names because the udev rules are run singly, so
> at one point you will be trying to rename an interface with a name that
> is already in use.

I mean more like renaming them on the fly --- or by having a
configuration file with key:value pairs like 'enp69s0f1:eth3' --- or
perhaps triples like 'enp69s0f1:eth3:"DMZ Interface"'.

That way, you could have a recognisable name (or several names) for
every unrecognisable one and assume that "eth3" or "foo" or however you
want to call it is the same interface just as much as you would with
unrecognisable names --- plus the advantage that when you ever need to
change an interface, you only need to edit one small file rather than
various configurations files having the unrecognisable name(s) in them.
And you would also have descriptions.

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Dale <rdalek1...@gmail.com> writes:

> lee wrote:
>> Dale <rdalek1...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> lee wrote:
>>>> Dale <rdalek1...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> lee wrote:
>>>>>> Daniel Frey <djqf...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 12/19/2016 10:15 AM, lee wrote:
>>>>>>>> "Walter Dnes" <waltd...@waltdnes.org> writes:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>   Similarly, the vast majority of home users have a machine with one
>>>>>>>>> ethernet port, and in the past it's always been eth0.
>>>>>>>> Since 10 years or so, the default is two ports.
>>>>>>> Not in any of the computers I've built. Generally only high end or
>>>>>>> workstation/server boards have two ports.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> i.e. not what the typical home user would buy.
>>>>>> It is not reasonable to assume that a "typical home user" would want a
>>>>>> computer with a crappy board to run Linux on it (or for anything
>>>>>> else). If they are that cheap, they're better off buying a used one.
>>>>>> When they are sufficiently clueless to want something like that, what
>>>>>> does it matter what the network interfaces are called.
>>>>>>
>>>>> I built my current rig just a few years ago.  It has one ethernet port
>>>>> on it.  Since it didn't work right, bad drivers I guess, I added a card
>>>>> to have the second port.  The rig I built before that, it also had one
>>>>> ethernet port. 
>>>>>
>>>>> I might add, I didn't buy a "crappy board" either.  The first was Abit
>>>>> which was the top rated brand at the time and my current board is
>>>>> Gigabyte, another highly rated board at the time I bought it.
>>>> I have no experience with Abit, and I can tell you from experience with
>>>> a couple of them that Gigabyte is the worst junk for a board you can
>>>> buy and that their support has no idea what they are doing.
>>> Well, I have two of them and they work just fine.  I might add, Abit
>>> gave me many years of 24/7 service.  Being outdated was its only
>>> problem.  Also, Gigabyte and Asus were the top rated boards when I
>>> bought my board.  Some who have been here long enough may even recall me
>>> posting my buy list here on this mailing list.  So, you thinking
>>> Gigabyte is junk can go in the same place as your thinking two ports on
>>> every board is the default.   It's your opinion and not based on
>>> reality.   I've learned the same usually applies to hard drives as well. 
>> You must be assuming that the Gigabyte boards I've had my hands on
>> somehow existed outside of reality.
>
> I think you are outside reality at this point. 
>
>
>>
>>>>> As Daniel
>>>>> points out, you have to get into some pretty high end boards before you
>>>>> get two ethernet ports. 
>>>>>
>>>>> Just for giggles, I went and looked at Asus boards, currently highly
>>>>> rated.  I had to get up around the $400 range to find two ports.  Most
>>>>> computers built for home use, and even some, maybe most, business
>>>>> computers, only have one port.  It's all they need. 
>>>>>
>>>>> I might also add, I have a lot of friends that give me their old
>>>>> computers.  Of all the puters I have ever seen, they had one ethernet
>>>>> port.  Over the past decade or so, I've likely stripped out a few dozen
>>>>> computers for parts.  Not one of them had two ethernet ports. 
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm with Daniel on this one. 
>>>> The last time I got a board that didn't have two ports is about 20 years
>>>> ago, and I never bought one for 400.  They all just have 2, needed or
>>>> not, even cheap ones.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Odd.  Just for giggles, I went to Newegg.  I pulled up both AMD and
>>> Intel boards.  I then looked at the pictures of the top sellers listed
>>> there.  With my settings, it lists 36 on each page.  Out of the first
>>> page for each type, only a couple or so had two ports and only one that
>>> I saw was under $200.00.  The rest were more expensive than that.  I
>>> think that one $200.00 board was a Gigabyte by

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Dale <rdalek1...@gmail.com> writes:

> lee wrote:
>> Dale <rdalek1...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> lee wrote:
>>>> Daniel Frey <djqf...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On 12/19/2016 10:15 AM, lee wrote:
>>>>>> "Walter Dnes" <waltd...@waltdnes.org> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   Similarly, the vast majority of home users have a machine with one
>>>>>>> ethernet port, and in the past it's always been eth0.
>>>>>> Since 10 years or so, the default is two ports.
>>>>> Not in any of the computers I've built. Generally only high end or
>>>>> workstation/server boards have two ports.
>>>>>
>>>>> i.e. not what the typical home user would buy.
>>>> It is not reasonable to assume that a "typical home user" would want a
>>>> computer with a crappy board to run Linux on it (or for anything
>>>> else). If they are that cheap, they're better off buying a used one.
>>>> When they are sufficiently clueless to want something like that, what
>>>> does it matter what the network interfaces are called.
>>>>
>>> I built my current rig just a few years ago.  It has one ethernet port
>>> on it.  Since it didn't work right, bad drivers I guess, I added a card
>>> to have the second port.  The rig I built before that, it also had one
>>> ethernet port. 
>>>
>>> I might add, I didn't buy a "crappy board" either.  The first was Abit
>>> which was the top rated brand at the time and my current board is
>>> Gigabyte, another highly rated board at the time I bought it.
>> I have no experience with Abit, and I can tell you from experience with
>> a couple of them that Gigabyte is the worst junk for a board you can
>> buy and that their support has no idea what they are doing.
>
> Well, I have two of them and they work just fine.  I might add, Abit
> gave me many years of 24/7 service.  Being outdated was its only
> problem.  Also, Gigabyte and Asus were the top rated boards when I
> bought my board.  Some who have been here long enough may even recall me
> posting my buy list here on this mailing list.  So, you thinking
> Gigabyte is junk can go in the same place as your thinking two ports on
> every board is the default.   It's your opinion and not based on
> reality.   I've learned the same usually applies to hard drives as well. 

You must be assuming that the Gigabyte boards I've had my hands on
somehow existed outside of reality.

>>> As Daniel
>>> points out, you have to get into some pretty high end boards before you
>>> get two ethernet ports. 
>>>
>>> Just for giggles, I went and looked at Asus boards, currently highly
>>> rated.  I had to get up around the $400 range to find two ports.  Most
>>> computers built for home use, and even some, maybe most, business
>>> computers, only have one port.  It's all they need. 
>>>
>>> I might also add, I have a lot of friends that give me their old
>>> computers.  Of all the puters I have ever seen, they had one ethernet
>>> port.  Over the past decade or so, I've likely stripped out a few dozen
>>> computers for parts.  Not one of them had two ethernet ports. 
>>>
>>> I'm with Daniel on this one. 
>> The last time I got a board that didn't have two ports is about 20 years
>> ago, and I never bought one for 400.  They all just have 2, needed or
>> not, even cheap ones.
>>
>>
>
> Odd.  Just for giggles, I went to Newegg.  I pulled up both AMD and
> Intel boards.  I then looked at the pictures of the top sellers listed
> there.  With my settings, it lists 36 on each page.  Out of the first
> page for each type, only a couple or so had two ports and only one that
> I saw was under $200.00.  The rest were more expensive than that.  I
> think that one $200.00 board was a Gigabyte by the way.  I doubt you
> want to claim owning that, right?  Looked at 72 boards, only found a
> couple or so with two ethernet ports. 
>
> So, looking at a large website that has likely millions of customers,
> carries about every brand of board there is, I could only find a very
> small percentage of boards that have two ethernet ports built in.  That
> is not what a reasonable person would call the default.  If it was the
> default as you claim, then there should only be a few that don't have
> two ports.  You add in that Daniel, Taiidan and myself have not seen
> such a default, then I think you are mistaken. 

That may very well be so, yet the boards around here usually have two
ports.  If the ones around you usually have one port, it's not
surprising that you would assume a different default number of ports.
So what?

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Neil Bothwick  writes:

> On Tue, 20 Dec 2016 19:22:44 +0100, Heiko Baums wrote:
>
>> > eth0 is the first card found by software, and not always the one you
>> > think it is.  
>> 
>> But you already heard of udev rules? I guess I mentioned them already.
>> They are not so hard to write and they only need to be written once.
>
> It's too late by then, if eth0 and eth1 already exist, you cannot switch
> them with udev rules - as anyone who had worked with dual NICs would have
> discovered.

Can you switch them when they have unrecognisable names?

Re: [gentoo-user] xterm menu

[lee]

Jorge Almeida <jjalme...@gmail.com> writes:

> On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 7:49 PM, lee <l...@yagibdah.de> wrote:
>
>>>>
>>> The menu has the same fonts when the first in the path is
>>> /usr/share/fonts/100dpi or /usr/share/fonts/Type1/; when
>>> /usr/share/fonts/75dpi it uses smaller fonts. So it seems that it
>>> wants /usr/share/fonts/?dpi. But if /usr/share/fonts/misc/ comes
>>> first, xterm crashes.
>>
>> That sounds like a bug in xterm, picking a font that makes it crash,
>> depending on in which order they appear (are being searched through).
>>
>> Even when there is a buggy font it picks, it shouldn't crash.
>>
> Sure, but it doesn't seem to happen to anyone else. I'm reluctant to
> blame the software if I'm not sure I didn't do something wrong...

Compiling a version of xterm with debugging info or using strace on it
might give a hint as to where things go wrong.  Perhaps it is a
particular font, or something not related to fonts at all.

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Andrej Rode  writes:

> Why
>> Or can you explain how unrecognisable names make things easier?
>
> Yeah they make life easier. From your talk you never had a problem with
> eth<0,10> switching names after boot. Everyone who had them appreciates
> predictable network interfaces.

Right, I've never had a problem like that.

> If you don't like them you can disable them in udev (I actually was
> wrong about only systemd).
> And actually I couldn't care less how my devices are named. Because
> ranting about them on a mailing list already takes more time and
> characters than typing `ip a`
>
> But yeah, I stop feeding the trolls right here :)

You have missed the point.

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Andrej Rode  writes:

>>> It is even more frustrating that these so-called predictable network
>>> names actually can change on a reboot, it's happened to me more than
>>> once when multiple network cards are detected in a different order.
>
> Then you might found a bug? With predictable network names the name of
> your device depends on the PCIe slot/address it is in. If you change
> positions in the board your names should change, not on reboot.

It wasn't me who said that.

> And you might believe it or not, running Linux on servers is much more
> popular than running Linux on your home desktop. Thus I'd guess things
> tend to be made easier for people with more than one network card.
> Certainly you don't want rely on random device enumeration order on
> reboot if you run a webserver with multiple network devices.

The point is that replacing recognisable names with unrecognisable ones
doesn't make things easier, regardless of how many network ports you
have.

Or can you explain how unrecognisable names make things easier?

> If you want to disable this on hosts running systemd read [0].

I'm not using systemd.

> Cheers,
> Andrej
>
> [0]
> https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/PredictableNetworkInterfaceNames/

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

"taii...@gmx.com"  writes:

> It is just another swell example of the pottering-eqsue corruption of
> the free software movement.

Was that really his idea?

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Dale <rdalek1...@gmail.com> writes:

> lee wrote:
>> Daniel Frey <djqf...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 12/19/2016 10:15 AM, lee wrote:
>>>> "Walter Dnes" <waltd...@waltdnes.org> writes:
>>>>
>>>>>   Similarly, the vast majority of home users have a machine with one
>>>>> ethernet port, and in the past it's always been eth0.
>>>> Since 10 years or so, the default is two ports.
>>> Not in any of the computers I've built. Generally only high end or
>>> workstation/server boards have two ports.
>>>
>>> i.e. not what the typical home user would buy.
>> It is not reasonable to assume that a "typical home user" would want a
>> computer with a crappy board to run Linux on it (or for anything
>> else). If they are that cheap, they're better off buying a used one.
>> When they are sufficiently clueless to want something like that, what
>> does it matter what the network interfaces are called.
>>
>
> I built my current rig just a few years ago.  It has one ethernet port
> on it.  Since it didn't work right, bad drivers I guess, I added a card
> to have the second port.  The rig I built before that, it also had one
> ethernet port. 
>
> I might add, I didn't buy a "crappy board" either.  The first was Abit
> which was the top rated brand at the time and my current board is
> Gigabyte, another highly rated board at the time I bought it.

I have no experience with Abit, and I can tell you from experience with
a couple of them that Gigabyte is the worst junk for a board you can
buy and that their support has no idea what they are doing.

> As Daniel
> points out, you have to get into some pretty high end boards before you
> get two ethernet ports. 
>
> Just for giggles, I went and looked at Asus boards, currently highly
> rated.  I had to get up around the $400 range to find two ports.  Most
> computers built for home use, and even some, maybe most, business
> computers, only have one port.  It's all they need. 
>
> I might also add, I have a lot of friends that give me their old
> computers.  Of all the puters I have ever seen, they had one ethernet
> port.  Over the past decade or so, I've likely stripped out a few dozen
> computers for parts.  Not one of them had two ethernet ports. 
>
> I'm with Daniel on this one. 

The last time I got a board that didn't have two ports is about 20 years
ago, and I never bought one for 400.  They all just have 2, needed or
not, even cheap ones.

Re: [gentoo-user] xterm menu

[lee]

Jorge Almeida <jjalme...@gmail.com> writes:

> On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 12:40 PM, lee <l...@yagibdah.de> wrote:
>> Jorge Almeida <jjalme...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>
>>>
>>> It is a voodoo (i.e. fonts)  problem. Things work for me now, with -fp
>>> in the Xserver command line and /usr/share/fonts/Type1/ before
>>> /usr/share/fonts/misc/. I would prefer to understand what happens
>>> rather than blindly apply a fix, but anyway.
>>
>> Does xterm use different fonts for the menu depending on in which order
>> the directories appear in the font path?
>>
>>
> The menu has the same fonts when the first in the path is
> /usr/share/fonts/100dpi or /usr/share/fonts/Type1/; when
> /usr/share/fonts/75dpi it uses smaller fonts. So it seems that it
> wants /usr/share/fonts/?dpi. But if /usr/share/fonts/misc/ comes
> first, xterm crashes.

That sounds like a bug in xterm, picking a font that makes it crash,
depending on in which order they appear (are being searched through).

Even when there is a buggy font it picks, it shouldn't crash.

Re: [gentoo-user] xterm menu

[lee]

Jorge Almeida <jjalme...@gmail.com> writes:

> On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 10:46 AM, lee <l...@yagibdah.de> wrote:
>
>>>
>> I'm using fvwm.  I was having trouble with xterm once when I still used
>> Fedora, and though I'm not sure, results might be different with
>> different WMs (I seem to remember something about that).
>
> I tried fvwm and there was no difference. Not a WM problem. Never
> thought it would be, really.
>
> It is a voodoo (i.e. fonts)  problem. Things work for me now, with -fp
> in the Xserver command line and /usr/share/fonts/Type1/ before
> /usr/share/fonts/misc/. I would prefer to understand what happens
> rather than blindly apply a fix, but anyway.

Does xterm use different fonts for the menu depending on in which order
the directories appear in the font path?


> [...]
>> perl -e 'print "$_\n" foreach(split(/,/, 
>> "/usr/share/fonts/misc/,/usr/share/fonts/TTF/,/usr/share/fonts/OTF/,/usr/share/fonts/Type1/,/usr/share/fonts/100dpi/,/usr/share/fonts/75dpi/,built-ins"));'
>>  | xargs ls
>>
>> ... shows files in each directory, except 'built-ins', of course.
>>
>>
>> That brings up the question if there is some alternative to perls split
>> in coreutils or bash.  The split of coreutils appears to be supposed to
>> be doing something rather useless?
>>
> Well, let's use Perl, by all means :) BTW, what does the busybox version do?

Sure, yet it can't be the only way for doing this.