On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 6:49 PM Michael Cordover wrote:
>
> The black in black hole and the white in whitespace are descriptions of the
> actual colors of these things.
> There's no value judgement there.
> Blacklist, on the other hand, is explicitly making a judgement that things on
> that
I might suggest that we at least confine any renaming to things that
are user-visible and not worry about the source code. Except they're
going to need aliases for all time, that's just a fact. Although I'm
all about addressing the injustices of the past and present, I think
it would be a lot
On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 11:06:17AM +0200, Eliot Lear wrote:
> Hi the peanut gallery...
>
> I can't say that blacklist/whitelist -> something else is a meaningless
> change. The challenge we as technologists (nevermind our color) have is
> that we don't really have good guidance from
On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 10:09 AM Peter Bowyer
wrote:
>
> So if we want to do this, let's:
>
> 1. Ask the black community what they find offensive in PHP
> 2. Listen
> 3. Prioritise the responses and judge which are feasible to act on
> 4. Act
>
This points out the obvious, people are stuck in
Hi the peanut gallery...
I can't say that blacklist/whitelist -> something else is a meaningless
change. The challenge we as technologists (nevermind our color) have is
that we don't really have good guidance from psychologists and
sociologists (I know, I tried chasing down those links last year
On Mon, 15 Jun 2020 at 20:07, Thomas Nunninger
wrote:
> Before discussing technical aspects about what changes would be required
> and what are the consequences, I'd like to point out some other aspect:
>
> I'm a white guy. I can't tell women how they should feel about male
> wordings,
Thanks Kalle.
--
Cheers,
Daniel Rodrigues.
geek...@php.net
https://twitter.com/geekcom2
De: Kalle Sommer Nielsen
Enviado: segunda-feira, 15 de junho de 2020 21:43
Para: Daniel Rodrigues Lima
Cc: PHP Internals
Assunto: Re: [PHP-DEV] About the use of the terms
Den tir. 16. jun. 2020 kl. 03.30 skrev Daniel Rodrigues Lima
:
>
> How is it in the process of creating an RFC...
>
> "1. Email internals@lists.php.net to measure reaction to your intended
> proposal. "
That is the thing, do you intend to provide no upgrade path for your
proposal? You don't
Hi Internals,
The problem with proposal and arguments about these "fixes" is that it's
usually white people arguing about what is and what isn't offensive to
black people. And isn't that the most racist thing about this: white
people deciding for black people?
No, it doesn't make you a better
How is it in the process of creating an RFC...
"1. Email internals@lists.php.net to measure reaction to your intended
proposal. "
--
Cheers,
Daniel Rodrigues.
geek...@php.net
https://twitter.com/geekcom2
De: Kalle Sommer Nielsen
Enviado: segunda-feira, 15 de
Den tir. 16. jun. 2020 kl. 03.09 skrev Daniel Rodrigues Lima
:
>
> I fully understand the consequences of the discussion we are having here.
> Sorry, but it is not nice to assume things about any PHP member. I didn't
> "throw a ball in the air at random", and I'm not scared by the negative
>
I fully understand the consequences of the discussion we are having here.
Sorry, but it is not nice to assume things about any PHP member. I didn't
"throw a ball in the air at random", and I'm not scared by the negative
responses themselves, I'm just surprised in a negative way.
--
Cheers,
Den tir. 16. jun. 2020 kl. 02.39 skrev Daniel Rodrigues Lima
:
>
> The simple fact that we don't know how to deal with this type of discussion
> can say a lot about of our community.
> Anyway when I started this discussion I didn't imagine that I would receive
> so many negative feedbacks.
I am
> Last, regarding neutrality. This proposal is literally aimed at adopting
> more-
> neutral language. It's not a partisan move to say that harmful language
> should be avoided.
The problem (imo) is projecting/tying relations and social interactions (past
and present) between people onto
The simple fact that we don't know how to deal with this type of discussion can
say a lot about of our community.
Anyway when I started this discussion I didn't imagine that I would receive so
many negative feedbacks.
--
Cheers,
Daniel Rodrigues.
geek...@php.net
https://twitter.com/geekcom2
Den tir. 16. jun. 2020 kl. 02.12 skrev Deleu :
>
> > I am sorry but I do not think you understand the scale of which the
> > PHP project is at.
>
> I'm sorry but you did not get my point. As mentioned above theres 170 places
> mentioning the term blacklist. When I said "the argument of BC without
> I am sorry but I do not think you understand the scale of which the
> PHP project is at.
I'm sorry but you did not get my point. As mentioned above theres 170
places mentioning the term blacklist. When I said "the argument of BC
without knowing the scope" I meant to express that perhaps 1, 10
Hi
Den tir. 16. jun. 2020 kl. 00.41 skrev Deleu :
> People arguing BC breaks without even knowing the scope of the change
> clearly show biased.
I am sorry but I do not think you understand the scale of which the
PHP project is at. Any change we make to the language has consequences
for hundreds
Hi!
> Last, regarding neutrality. This proposal is literally aimed at adopting
> more-neutral language. It's not a partisan move to say that harmful
> language should be avoided.
It is a decidedly political claim that long-time industry standard term
with established neutral meaning is
On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 4:41 PM Deleu wrote:
> As white men, we're being dismissive, insensitive and strongly suggesting
> we don't want change. While people may not feel offended by any of these
> terms being discussed, this thread alone already serves as reason for
> people to feel like
As additional information, i would like to add that Michał Brzuchalski
(brzuchal), has an open PR in order to change the blacklist terminology in PHP.
https://github.com/php/php-src/pull/5685
--
Greets,
Daniel Rodrigues.
geek...@php.net
https://twitter.com/geekcom2
On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 10:41 PM Deleu wrote:
> People arguing BC breaks without even knowing the scope of the change
> clearly show biased.
>
Bold assumption there. There is at least one PR suggesting similar changes
and you can gauge the amount of BC based on it. Unless "blacklist" is not
+1.
While I agree that the status of the php project makes the discussion much
more productive by having an actionable process in place, I do sympathize
with the original author in the thread. You can see that with a simple and
small action that is highlighted in the RFC guide as step 1 (gauge
On Mon, Jun 15, 2020, at 4:11 PM, Daniel Rodrigues Lima wrote:
> Hi Larry,
>
> I appreciate your answer, thank you, but i would like to clarify some points:
>
> 1. I found 170 occurrences of the term blacklist - grep -rni
> "blacklist" php-src/, i'm working to understand the impact of changes;
Hi Larry,
I appreciate your answer, thank you, but i would like to clarify some points:
1. I found 170 occurrences of the term blacklist - grep -rni "blacklist"
php-src/, i'm working to understand the impact of changes;
2. It’s not about politics, i believe it’s about learning how to be better
On Mon, Jun 15, 2020, at 2:11 PM, G. P. B. wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Jun 2020 at 20:05, Lynn wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 7:46 PM Alain D D Williams
> > wrote:
> >
> > > It is very easy to take offence when none is meant at all. One needs to
> > > look at intent.
> > >
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I'm
Hi,
Am 15.06.20 um 21:14 schrieb Stanislav Malyshev:
Hi!
I was surprised by the many negative responses: Partly just discussing
the term "blacklist" that is perhaps not the main issue. Or telling
people how they should feel and understand words.
Nobody tells you how to feel. But when you
Hi!
> I was surprised by the many negative responses: Partly just discussing
> the term "blacklist" that is perhaps not the main issue. Or telling
> people how they should feel and understand words.
Nobody tells you how to feel. But when you claim your supposed feelings
are the reason to censor
On Mon, 15 Jun 2020 at 20:05, Lynn wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 7:46 PM Alain D D Williams
> wrote:
>
> > It is very easy to take offence when none is meant at all. One needs to
> > look at intent.
> >
>
> Hi,
>
> I'm going to disagree here. It's not about intent, it's about impact. You
>
Hi,
I was surprised by the many negative responses: Partly just discussing
the term "blacklist" that is perhaps not the main issue. Or telling
people how they should feel and understand words.
Personally, I don't have any issues with "blacklist" - as I do not see
any historical reason for
Hi Chuck,
About the blacklist , I searched the branch master and found 170 occurrences.
✔ grep -rni "blacklist" php-src/ > blacklist_occurrences.txt
--
Cheers,
Daniel Rodrigues
geek...@php.net
https://twitter.com/geekcom2
De: Chuck Adams
Enviado:
Oh man, not this again, not here. Nothing intelligent ever comes out of this.
Looks like most instances in the PHP source refer to mysql constants,
which means the ball would be in mysql's court. Reality is you'd
still need the aliases that contain the offending word.
The other is in
On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 7:46 PM Alain D D Williams
wrote:
> It is very easy to take offence when none is meant at all. One needs to
> look at intent.
>
Hi,
I'm going to disagree here. It's not about intent, it's about impact. You
can have the best intentions with the worst results.
When I
On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 10:00:22AM -0700, Stanislav Malyshev wrote:
> Hi!
>
> > I think the time has come for the PHP internals to discuss the use of
> > master/slave and blacklist terminologies.
> > As everyone can see, we are going through times of change in the world, see
> >
Hi!
> It is now highly likely that M$ will force changes to these in github
> which is probably part of what has prompted the thread. Once 'new
If and when this will happen, we'll see the official message from
Microsoft/Github and decide how to act. There's no point in discussing
such
On 15/06/2020 18:00, Stanislav Malyshev wrote:
While your quest for more just and fair world is noble and laudable, I
think your energies are misplaced in this case. Terms like "blacklist"
are established industry terms (and are used also outside the industry -
It is now highly likely that M$
> On Jun 15, 2020, at 12:10, Daniel Rodrigues Lima
> wrote:
>
> Hi Nikita,
>
> Thanks for suggestions, I didn't mean to be disrespectful.
> Create an RFC is exactly the next step, but first I needed to understand if
> there was support for that.
>
> How is it in the process of creating an
Hi Nikita,
Thanks for suggestions, I didn't mean to be disrespectful.
Create an RFC is exactly the next step, but first I needed to understand if
there was support for that.
How is it in the process of creating an RFC...
"1. Email internals@lists.php.net to measure reaction to your intended
Hi!
> I think the time has come for the PHP internals to discuss the use of
> master/slave and blacklist terminologies.
> As everyone can see, we are going through times of change in the world, see
> #blackLivesMatter for example.
While your quest for more just and fair world is noble and
> On 15 Jun 2020, at 22:43, Daniel Rodrigues Lima
> wrote:
>
> Hi internals,
>
> I think the time has come for the PHP internals to discuss the use of
> master/slave and blacklist terminologies.
> As everyone can see, we are going through times of change in the world, see
>
On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 5:43 PM Daniel Rodrigues Lima <
danielrodrigues...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Hi internals,
>
> I think the time has come for the PHP internals to discuss the use of
> master/slave and blacklist terminologies.
> As everyone can see, we are going through times of change in the
On Mon, Jun 15, 2020, at 12:36, Reinis Rozitis wrote:
> > The word "master" has 18 meanings in English, according to
> > https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/master - do you propose to outlaw those
> > 17 of them that have nothing to do with slavery, too? What about master's
> > degree, for example?
>
Hi!
> The moment we change blacklist to blocklist, we are essentially
> agreeing to the fact that we should censor words because they contain
> a color in its name, something that is totally unrelated to any human
> race. Are we also gonna change the internal values of the Garbage
> Collector for
> The word "master" has 18 meanings in English, according to
> https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/master - do you propose to outlaw those
> 17 of them that have nothing to do with slavery, too? What about master's
> degree, for example?
>
I wonder what will astronomers do with 'black hole' ..
Den man. 15. jun. 2020 kl. 19.15 skrev Daniel Rodrigues Lima
:
>
> Hi Kalle,
>
> I understand your position.
>
> But i believe that changing retrograde terminologies that refer to bad
> feelings,
> doesn't put us anywhere politically.
It exactly puts us in a political area, because the moment we
пн, 15 июн. 2020 г., 19:15 Daniel Rodrigues Lima <
danielrodrigues...@hotmail.com>:
> But i believe that changing retrograde terminologies that refer to bad
> feelings,
> doesn't put us anywhere politically.
>
>
> It's not about sides, it's about people, and our community is made up of
> people.
I don't think that terminology of this type affects people. Or else, they
shouldn't. Comparing "blacklist" with a black person, implying something
pejorative, seems more sick to those who think like that than we actually
understand with the meaning of the word in our midst. I understand that
this
Hi Kalle,
I understand your position.
But i believe that changing retrograde terminologies that refer to bad feelings,
doesn't put us anywhere politically.
It's not about sides, it's about people, and our community is made up of people.
--
Cheers,
Daniel Rodrigues
geek...@php.net
Hi
Den man. 15. jun. 2020 kl. 18.43 skrev Daniel Rodrigues Lima
:
>
> Hi internals,
>
> I think the time has come for the PHP internals to discuss the use of
> master/slave and blacklist terminologies.
> As everyone can see, we are going through times of change in the world, see
>
Hi internals,
I think the time has come for the PHP internals to discuss the use of
master/slave and blacklist terminologies.
As everyone can see, we are going through times of change in the world, see
#blackLivesMatter for example.
Therefore, I propose that we discuss the non-use of terms
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