I have just had a look at this catalogue. Wonderful.
I am especially intrigued by #30/31 - and when brought up in close-up, the
strips of appliqué on her dress appears to be gold and silver Lace - similar
to laces shown in Le Pompe, etc.
What do others think?
I had always felt that the early
I really should join but which one...
Be greedy like me Cearbhael, and join both!!!
You do Not have to be a member of UK Guild to receive the Artefact of the
Month photo.
Just write to them at holl...@laceguild.org and ask to be put on the list
for the Artefact of the Month club.
Maybe there is
The beauty of Brenda's book, is that all the wpi are done by her, -
therefore the same hand and the same tension. This means it is a better
comparison than each of us doing our own measure!
Regards from Liz in Melbourne, Oz
lizl...@bigpond.com
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Firstly, - Doris said I am so pleased to have been a part of it.
Doris, - we are All pleased that you have been, and still are, a part of
it. We owe you, and those other early lacemakers who wrote books, a Huge
Thank you, as without you many of us would not be here making lace!
I am sorry you
I have just remembered that a friend worked a tablecloth from a magazine -
Lace Express, or the Spanish one Encajera (?Spelling) I think, and it was
formed of large squares, and each square was divided diagonally, with one
half in one stitch, and the other half in a different stitch, or just
Sue, if you can't find a teacher for your friend, buy her the Rosemary
Shepherd book, Introduction to Bobbin Lace
http://www.lacedaisypress.com.au/pubs2.html
I know some ladies in the Outback who only had this book, and they all
learned from it, and became excellent lacemakers.
You can pay by
Gil Dye said Not yet found any fish bones that work well as pins, on the
other hand I
have successfully used rabbit and game bird bones as bobbins - but that's
another story.
I would Love to hear that story!! :)
I have used half a clothes peg (the sort with the metal spring in between
.The Lace Guild (England) bulletin #141, January 2011?
Gosh! I must have read that article in my sleep! I have the UK Lace - #5 -
74, then a gap and all since #103!
I will re read it. Gracious!!, I don't know how that slipped my memory.
Thank you for reminding me of it Jeri.
I will Read,
Thank you , Tamara, for the You-tube duo singing about this. It is the best
laugh I have had for a while. They are Very clever.
Must send it to a friend who has to have regular checks!!
Regards from Liz in Melbourne, Oz.
lizl...@bigpond.com
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I keep my selection of tools that I take out and about with me in a
spectacle box - the sort that open sideways with a sprung lid. It Is a
hard case, and just the right length for needle pin, stitch holders, crochet
hook, divider pins, etc and sits close to my pillow with everything handy
when
Thankfully I had to fill my own syringes and those needle covers were much
easier to remove. ..
Those needle covers, - if they are anything like the Aussie ones, - are good
for protecting the points of fine embroidery scissors! A friend had a
diabetic dog, and had to give him injections, and
Sorry, everyone, that should have gone to the lace Chat list.
Regards from Liz in Melbourne
lizl...@bigpond.com
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Apologies, I sent this to the lace list by mistake!
Sue said - Thankfully I had to fill my own syringes and those needle covers
were much easier to remove. ..
Those needle covers, - if they are anything like the Aussie ones, - are good
for protecting the points of fine embroidery scissors! A
My condolences to the family.
Although I never met Margaret, I know the name very well, and have 2 Folio
pattern books that she brought out with Ann Day, that UK Lace sold.
Patterns from the V A museum.
Just recently I bought (or, I should say, was bought for me!) a bobbin of
hers from the
We have a rule at our local show, that mounted entries (mounted on card or
such) should only be stitched on at the top, so the Judge can see the back
of the lace, - or some of it, at least.
Also with regard to classes for lace - I feel that continuous lace - such as
Beds, Bucks, and Torchon
Sue T. you obviously need a small travel pillow! Mine is the size of a
handbag, and folds up with 2 small carry handles.
As it is a roller pillow, I can only do straight lace, - but it is
invaluable for taking out and about, and takes us very little room - even in
a caravan. (Been there, done
I join in with Birthday greetings to this list.
I joined about 2003 (soon after I got my first computer! - This was the
first list I joined!)
One of the Great spin-offs is that at an IOLI convention there is an Arachne
Lunch, and I have been able to come face-to-face with people on this list
We too had a budgie who loved to pull the pins out - and also chew the glue
off the fishing line that I use for spangling!
Regards from Liz in Melbourne, Oz.
lizl...@bigpond.com
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I have just seen a photo of some of the old bobbins that belonged to
Margaret Tite that are for sale.
(Yes I bought one!! - the one with Joseph on the shank - my Great Great
Grandfather's name! - and very similar to the one I already have)
What really surprises me is that the spangles are almost
I received my IOLI Bulletin yesterday, and there is a page with a Yardage
competition to be held in Germany next year.
It does not say how long a piece of lace has to be. - Yes, I know, I thought
a yard - but it says it can have corners in it, - so would the foot side
have to be a yard
I too, was sorry to read of the passing of Dearl. Her tag line always made
me smile.
I had noticed we did not hear from her much recently, and her stroke
explains it.
Oh dear! Another (on-line) friend gone. At least she did not suffer, as
some do. It was a nice quick passing, - and with
Just be careful, with using an Uncovered photocopy, that the ink does not
rub off onto the lace.
I did that once - and Never again!! I Always cover with contact, now, as
the one time I did not, - I got very grubby lace on the underside, where the
ink came off onto the lace.
I was taught
Avital, - That is Brilliant. Thank you Very, Very, much. That will make life
a lot easier!!
I have googled a few of the words, - and got some strange alternatives!!!
I can now have another go at Puncetto, with a bit more understanding.
Regards from Liz in chilly, overcast, Melbourne,
Well done, Avital. An excellent review. I found the diagrams quite clear
when working the one little square I have done so far, and have no
hesitation in trying another piece.
As you say, there are some pretty pieces in the book, - but you have to work
one square at a time, and then compile
Prince William visited Christchurch yesterday, and also the mine where there
was a major disaster a few months ago. He had a private meeting with the
relatives of the miners, and apparently spoke to every one of them. I
believe he is now in Queensland viewing the devastation there, - or he will
I have a cousin and her family in Tokyo, and they are all safe. (Not
lacemakers)
I have also contacted Junko, a lacemaker, who is also safe and well. Many
people may know her as she has lived in the UK and USA I think. She was in
both my classes at the Denver convention in 2005. She has
I Must chip in here - Jenny in Kununurra is a Marvel!
When she started lacemaking she really only had the Aussie lace chat group -
the Gumnuts to turn to for help, and has progressed so quickly and so far
that now she is an accomplished teacher. Her web site is excellent. She has
formed the
Wonderful to hear you are safe and well, Erica. So many people have been
concerned as we did not hear from you.
Where is Darfield in relation to Christchurch? (I could not find it on the
map in Macquarie World Atlas!)
We weep for the people of Christchurch, ever evening when watching the
I have been in contact with a needlelacemaker in Christchurch, - who is OK,
luckily, - and although she does not know Erica, she knows that she lives
in Hokitika on the West coast so she will not be affected like they are in
Christchurch.
I hope this allays some worry.
We are such a
Avital, your tutorials are Marvellous! Thank you SO much for them.
Your instructions are good (and in English - which is a help!!! :-) ) and
the animated graphics are Brilliant! This latest one - the diamond, - well,
it all becomes clear as I watched the line make the loops, etc.
I have
Thank you, Brian, for posting that Ebay number for the Abbott bobbins,. As
soon as I saw them I realized I had a similar one, - had a look for it, -
and Yes! I have one!! So now I can add the makers name to it!! It is fairly
slim, and I see I have spangled it, so it came down from Grandma without
You said, in the original message, that the lady said the girl did a lot of
handcrafts -
Well, I wonder about that! If she had done so much, she should have known
that things take a lot of time to finish, and therefore should have been
even more aware of the fine work you were doing on the
I love that fan, Achim. Whether you paid too much or not, - it is
beautiful, so just enjoy it!!
Sorry I can't give any help re the fan sticks.
Lora, - there is a beaut Water lily pattern that has been worked in both
Point ground and torchon lace. It is an old pattern, and one version is in
Brian asks : [hands up those who remember toasting their
bread on the fire using a long toasting fork! Delicious!]
Well, yes, My hand is held high!! The toast (or crumpets) were Always
better toasted by the fire, - got a bit of a smokey flavour to enhance it.
Lovely!
Maybe The bobbin
Lorri -
I have 2 spools of this thread, - Auriofil, I think it is also called.
Orange spool is 50, and grey spool is 28/2 - according to the little bits of
sticky label I stuck on the bottom of the reels!
I do wish manufacturers would think about when the outer wrapping is
removed, and
Brian, - I have an old bone bobbin with Pharaoh engraved on it. I have
always wondered the what, why, who's about it!! It was one from my
family, - so Grandma's bobbin, or Great Grandmas, or..??
Curious!!!
Re your kayaks - don't you live in the middle of NSW - quite a long way from
I was taught whole stitch - CTC, half stitch,- CT, and double half stitch -
CTCT.
Now, it seems, the recognised wording is cloth stitch, half stitch and whole
stitch for these 3 stitches.
Like the pair that weaves its way across the passives (is there another name
for them, too?!!!) -
My meaning was a thinner (finer), sparsely woven (coarser) cloth. Is
*that* clear?
English is a wonderful language isn't it?!!! :-)
Regards from Liz in Melbourne, Oz.
lizl...@bigpond.com
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David, if you have to remove and re-pin make yourself a felt pad that
becomes larger in the centre than at the front and back edges, then work
onto it (tuck it up under your pricking)
You can them remove the lace, pins and all, and straighten it up on the
roller, push down some of the pins, and
Sue, I print out my pattern on ordinary paper, and cover it with
sticky-backed contact,, or book covering. I have a small stash of heavier,
blue matt-finish contact , which our local supplier seels and I mainly keep
that for needlelace, and use the ordinary contact for bobbin lace!
This covered
I was lucky enough to win a pair of the Parsons Special bobbins - with the 2
Aussie OAM names on them (Rosemary and Norma). They are greatly treasured.
Liz , now back in Melbourne, Oz.
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Happy New Year to everyone.
Christine Springett's fan patterns come with a pattern for pleating the
completed lace fan leaf, and her great little book on making fans give the
instructions on how to do the pleating.
However, I think it is Ann Collier who does not pleat her fan leaves, but
lets
The added $9 on top of postage to USA will certainly put a dint into sending
gifts there.
What also bothers me, - with family in USA - is that many/seemingly most
American stores won't take credit cards from anyone outside USA, so I can't
even buy gifts or vouchers online. Grrr!!
Daughter Helen
Seasons Greetings to everyone, from Sunny Mallacoota (a little tourist and
fishing town at the bottom right hand corner of the continent!)
It is a nice day here, and a lunch with the park owners and some other
friends from town will start soon! There is a covered BBQ area in the middle
of the
My Grandmother always called it Pillow lace , but she only made Bobbin lace.
I think 'Pillow lace' usually refers to 'Bobbin lace'.
I would like to take this opportunity to wish everyone a very Happy Festive
Season, and all the best for the New Year.
Liz in Melbourne - currently away on
I have seen tapes like these at Officeworks, I think. Silly me - I did not
buy it at the time!!
I did not find it last week, when I looked, though!
Brian - I think I sent you a photo some time ago of my W..Worsley hanging
Bobbin, didn't I?
Regards from Liz in Melbourne, Oz.
To Liz and Clay - Yes, You are right! Well done to pick that up.!
If you read the text, Example 1 refers to the fact it has a net ground.
(top page 23), and Example 2 states it has plaited brides.
The photos have obviously been swapped over, - or the text has been swapped.
Whatever - they
Yes, Shirley T. My UK Lace magazine arrived over a week ago.
I wonder where yours has gone, then, if you have not had it yet.
Maybe time to email the Hollies, and tell them.
Regards from Liz in Melbourne
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Janice, the net background on Catherine's beautiful piece was All Hand
Worked.!!
Amazing!! She sets the standard SO high!!
I have not seen the actual piece, but I have a post card with it on, and so
I can see the ground clearly. It is even and just about perfect!
Awesome (In the proper
I received my Lace #140 a couple of days ago, Shirley T.
Usually it is delivered by the normal Postie into the letter box, but this
time it came by the parcel van . It is in the usual plastic envelope, not
different to any other posting of it,. - so why it got the special treatment
I do not
Pene, I believe they do Not allow anyone in to see the lace these days.
Helen I got in to see it in about 1989, when we visited Canberra. We were
going to visit the Lace Group that evening, and during the day went to see
the new Parliament House, and I asked to see the lace that the Canberra
I am allergic to cheese, and find it hard to eat out, as everything seems to
be smothered in it these days.
I can eat butter, and cream, but yoghurt - the fruit variety in small does
is OK, but the Greek style is far too close to cheese for me to eat.
They even have cheese over roast
Mine has not arrived yet, - so that is something to loo out for this week.
I agree with you Pene regarding naming lacemakers.
I have learned something from your letter, though - Daughter, Helen, and I
got in to see the lace made for Sergeant at Arms in the Federal Parliament
- in 1989, I
I think some lace hats are made in 3 pieces, - Brim, the top, and the side
piece, and then sewn together.
Seems a more logical, and easier, way to me!!
Making the top and sides in one piece would be awkward to work, I would
think.
They would not give much shade from the sun, do look
Threads twisting up too much when using a needle can be a pain in the ***!!!
I was in a workshop doing Needlelace with Catherine Barley, and we were
using Brok 100/3 thread. It was Aweful regarding over twisting, and
Catherine suggested I use it from the other (wrong) end. This seemed to
solve
Yes, I know of Bucks thumpers. I have a couple that I use for gimp threads
(though I think I drilled a hole, and added a spangle, to stop them rolling
around.)
Devon's quote seems about right, I think - from my knowledge of history.
The rings of spangles, such a unique feature of East
2- that have a nice squared ceramic insert in the body of
the bobbin. Don't know who the maker of those was, but they're nice.
Helen, John Pollard made bobbins with the inserts, - and often a matching
Bottom Bead for the spangle. Nice!! I have a couple of them. Yours may
well be from him. He
I was pleasantly surprised at the recent IOLI convention at Portland, that
in the lesson I had with Elena Dickson, she was quite happy for us to
photocopy pages from her books, if it was for ourselves, so that we could
just take the necessary pages out with us, and not lug the whole book
around.
Some more Aussie bobbin makers, - besides John Beswick, are:-
Leon Young (our first one , I think!)
Max Meier
Neil Keats,
Bill Lafferty,
?? Gesaitis, (Judy's husband)
Malcolm Fielding
Regards from Liz in Melbourne, Oz.
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and I just found I have one of your cousin's bobbins in huon pine - I
think it was one that Mum bought and gave me for birthday or Christmas one
year).
Yes, Helen and David, I bought bobbins made by David's cousin when we
visited Tasmania, and I found them in a nice little shop...! David had
The Late Gabrielle Pond, had a superb collection of antique lace, and just
before she died (at age 97) she sold her collection through a big auction
house in London. She knew her family was not interested in it, so thought
she would dispose of it herself.
She was happy to talk to me about the
Oh dear! Been there, done that!!!
Not only have I pressed on the wrong end of a pin , and run the eye end of a
needle into my finger, but I have also stitched myself to some fabric!
Ouch!!
Re broken ends in lace - I don't do much Honiton, as I find it too fine and
fiddley!, but I did a nice
Devon, - I am teaching Gros Point, and Point de Gaze needlelace at
Bethesda, - Not Bedforshire bobbin lace.
I have to make a couple of new patterns for both styles.
Regards from Liz in Melbourne, Oz.
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Thank you all for your replies. There is obviously a Huge amount of Gentle
Crafts out there. I had not realized there was so much. Wow!
As I am making up some new patterns for the convention, I thought I could
theme some, perhaps, as I did in Denver some years ago. Patchwork blocks
give me a few
Thank you all for your help.
I have passed on your information to my friend, who lives up country, and a
letter with all your suggestions is in the mail to her.
I know I speak for her when I say a big Thank You.
Regards from Liz in Melbourne, Oz. - where it is cold and grey again!
I admire you chopping all that straw, Mark.
When I made my 2 x 24inch diameter pillows, around 1977/78 in my ignorance,
I did not bother to chop the straw up much. Just stuffed it in, in
handfuls, hammered it down, stuffed some more, more hammering, etc till I
had it more or less filled to the
I noticed, at the Teachers showcase in Portland, (IOLI convention) there was
a fan mo8unted on clear acrylic fan sticks. Clever idea, as they did not
show through the lace.
I wonder if they were hand carved from Perspex, - or does anyone know if
they are commercially available?
Regards from Liz
We are back home at last, after nearly 3 weeks in USA.
The first week was at Convention in Portland, and I thoroughly enjoyed every
moment.
Congratulations to the Portland Lace Group who hosted the event.
Also a big Thank You to everyone I met there for their friendship. My
husband was made
I will be there, Janice, - and have booked in for the Arachne lunch, - and
the other dinners!
I have my bobbins wound, and my other class needs ready, too. I am doing
Milanese with Louise in the mornings, and Knotted lace with Elena in the
afternoons.
I am also sorting out my US dollars for
always used to tell people that I
was 'joining holes together with bits of yarn'
I Love that!! :) Very good!!!
I, too, get confused with Needlepoint and needlelace, Janice. I know a lot
of people use the term Needlepoint, - but to me that is embroidery on canvas
- often called tapestry!!
I
Congratulations Jane and your Group. That Carousel is Gorgeous. Well done
to you all.
What a clever idea and so well turned into a lovely lace project. Very
clever, and a prize well deserved.
Regards from Liz in freezing Melbourne, Oz.
lizl...@bigpond.com
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Oops, Jane, - SO sorry, I mistook Class entry for Group entry. I now
realize your Carousel was all your own work, -- which makes it even more
stunning.
It is Gorgeous, and I marvel at your inventiveness.
Very well done.
I look forward to our next UK Lace which, I hope, will have Lots of
Congratualtions, Claire. That lace is beautiful.
I could not get the pictures to enlarge (Flicker banned it!), so - please -
what sort of lace is it?
It is a beautiful design, and obviously - even from the small photo, was
excellently worked.
Well done, - enjoy your medal - you deserve it!
That lace looks nice, Mark. I love the idea of tallies between the blocks.
I haven't seen that done before in a torchon edge.
As for cutting off and starting something different - I do it all the
time! :)
I have a little travel pillow with a small roller, and always have something
on the go.
Yes, the thread is linen.
I still have small amounts on the cones I bought over 30 years ago, when I
started making lace. We only used linen in those days!
Now I have had a look in the cupboard at them I find I still have some 30,
50, 80, 100, 120 left. White and ecru.
Goodness!! Some
When I came back to Oz m, from Denver after the IOLI convention in 2005, I
carried the bobbins I bought in my hand luggage. I declared them, and after
a moment's thought the customs guy said Oh! You meant those little stick
things? I said
Yes and he waved me away, with a They are alright.
That looks like a very soggy weekend, Mark. What an interesting place,
though. Loved looking at the photos.
And your lace looks Very Nice, too.
Regards from Liz in Melbourne
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I got my letter from the Portland IOLI convention
Lucky people, I will have to wait another week or more to hear how my luck
runs!! Mail takes 7 - 10 days to get here.
Anyway, my UK Lace magazine arrived yesterday (Friday), so I still have some
of that to read!
I have just finished a 2 day
You lucky people! I think I must be the last person in Australia to get
(or Not to get) my magazine. It has not turned up yet, and I know others
both in Melbourne and Interstate have had theirs.
I keep hoping, and looking out for the Postie...! Maybe tomorrow...!
Regards from Liz in very
I have an 18 inch horsehair pillow, and it is my favourite. Lovely to work
on, as the pins just slide in with ease.
The horsehair is Not cut up small, but is curled - frizzy hair!!!
Pins don't rust into the pillow either, if left for ages! Another plus!!!
A few weeks ago I went to the
I always think that my Grandmother lived in the most amazing era. Born in
1879, she saw bicycles come into general use, electricity in every home,
cars, radio, television, and right up to a man walking on the Moon!!! She
died in 1976 - at 97 years old.
I doubt there is another era with such
Dear Pat.
So sorry to hear your sad news.
My thoughts are with you.
I sent to you Off list, but the email was spat back as Undeliverable, so I
send you this message on Lace Chat.
Regards from Liz in Melbourne, Oz.
lizl...@bigpond.com
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With larger prickings on a cookie pillow, such as a square pricking, I pin
down the part that shows, and only one pin per corner, for the lower part
that is covered with a dressing cloth. I just pin at the sides where
needed.
Then as I move down, and move the dressing cloth, those side pins can
I have seen, somewhere, a lace maker using the bottom of ice-cream
containers, cut down to about 1 inch around the sides, but on 3 sides only,
and the other side cut down to the bottom. It is then used as a scoop/tray
for the bobbins, and can stack up on each other. They might be quicker to
use.
Chaos all around, Brenda.
Think about Workers, Weavers, Walkers, Leaders and Runners -- All the same
thing!!! :)
I too, learned Whole stitch (for cloth stitch,) and double half stitch (for
cloth twist) when I started lace making.
Regards from Liz in Melbourne, Oz
lizl...@bigpond.com
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To
When do we hear what classes we have managed to get into for the Portland
IOLI convention? Do we get class requirements at the same time?
I have only been to one convention - as a Teacher, so it was all a bit
different!
I am so looking forward to the trip, and meeting as many of you as
I have seen a photo of a painting where Lady Jane Grey certainly had narrow
torchon-type lace around her cuffs.
Some of the ?embroidery on the clothing was actually a simple lace appliquéd
on - the Early Renaissance lace like in Le Pompe or Rosemary Shepherds
latest book.
So as far as I know
Diana, I have used Aurofil 50 for needlelace and it works up beautifully.
I haven't tried it for bobbin lace - yet, but I am sure it would be excellent.
I have the larger cone of off white/creamy colour, rather than the small reels
that come in a wide variety of colours. I also have a cone of
Lynne, I, too, have multifocal spectacles, and had the same problem as you -
neck and shoulder stiffness.
My method of fixing it, (more or less) was to go and get single focal lenses
set at the distance I sit from my screen - arms length! I took an old pair of
frames, and had the new lenses put
I had a friend who took her honiton pillow into the bathroom when she had a
shower, and uncovered it, so the steam in the room kept her threads moist.
During a very dry weather spell, - Everyone in the family had to shower with
her pillow, to stop the threads breaking!!
It became quite a family
Yesterday I received my Needle 'n' Thread magazine - from the Guild of
Needlelaces, and today the postie has just delivered the UK Lace magazine, -
so I have a continuing feast of lace!!!
I have only openend the envelope so far, - and looked at the front cover - a
beaut fan, and read the lovely
Sorry, Lenore, not to answer your question sooner. I have been away for the
last 3 days, and I only get the digest, - and have only just reached the
question.
I always lay my trace thread (cordonet) in one colour for the whole piece, and
I usually work out beforehand how I can lay the whole
Happy Australia Day to all ex-pats.
I have just enjoyed a lunch of Lamb chops washed down with a glass of beer -
so very Aussie!!!
Orts - a word I have never heard before. I have been saving my cotton threads
from bobbins to fill a pin cushion, - and probably have enough for a small
one!! But I
Francis, what a brilliant idea drop your husband corner wish I had one
near to where I live, then I could shop without hearing are you nearly done
yet? from DH.
I get You don't need that when DH is around. It drove me mad when at the
Denver convention! :))
Need and Want are 2 totally
LEXOPHILES (LOVERS OF WORDS):-
1. A bicycle can't stand alone; it is two tired.
2. A will is a dead giveaway.
3. Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana.
4. A backward poet writes inverse.
5. A chicken crossing the road: poultry in motion.
6. When a clock is hungry it goes back four
Happy New Year to everyone.
I have just returned from holiday, and got back onto Arachne. I have missed
you all, and hope you are all well and safe.
I made a quarter of the Bucks pt. wedding handkie I started in December,(part
of the first corner, and all of one side, and into the 2nd corner) so
Yes, I have signed the petition, too. Easily done online.
We have been chatting about it on the Aussie Lace chat list, and I expect a
few others have signed it too. However , I will give them another gentle
reminder!
I wonder what will happen to the Lace Collection if it closes down. I hope
Oh David! You must either stop buying timber, or shop somewhere
else! :))
What on earth are you going to do with all that timber, anyway ? There must
be an aweful lot of it if you had to go back that many
times You naughty man! :)) :))
Well, the bobbins don't appear to be a Set as I understand it.
The tops and tails indicate - to me - that they were made by different makers,
for a start.
There does not seem to be any continuity between them - Pairs of bobbins, yes,
but not a set.
I don't know anything about the bobbin makers,
Glad we could help, Clay.
I am glad to hear the whole class was entertained and educated by all the
cards.
They make learning at school SO much more interesting these days, don't they.
Lace content - I had a couple of hours at the Powerhouse Museum Lace Stuidy
Centre ain sydney a couple of
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