data or the non-free competition product any less ideological?
Bye
Frederik
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, and you are recorded as having changed
all of the selected objects even if only some of them changed).
Bye
Frederik
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Hi,
On Wed, Feb 06, 2008 at 11:52:24AM +0100, Frederik Ramm wrote:
Let us drop all this nonsense and concentrate on drawing up the moral
guidelines - saying what we consider ok and what not - instead of
fantasizing about having legal powers to enforce anything.
I don't get it : you go
and claim that they are
important pillars of the project and have been chosen after long
and thorough consideration. This is the first time we actually have a
community process going where we try to find the license that serves
us best.
Or at least I thought we had.
Bye
Frederik
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Hi,
On 20.02.2008, at 20:37, Frederik Ramm wrote:
Hm. Suppose we used a restrictive copyleft license lice the ODL,
but at
the same time said that 12 months after being last edited, we release
stuff into the public domain.
[...]
Maybe we can find a compromise along these lines
.
No, because coypright applies to the Linux kernel, and the US law
does recognize that very well. The problem arises only with stuff
that is not copyrightable, such as factual data, onto which you try
to add restrictions.
Bye
Frederik
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be captured by evil guys.
Bye
Frederik
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for non-European
jurisdictions then apply here as well (i.e. I extract the data and
breach the contract, publish it, another guy uses it)?
Bye
Frederik
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Hi,
there is, in my opinion, nothing ethically
wrong with putting a value on intellectual work and demanding
compensation (money, attribution, sex, ...) for it.
Entirely new licensing options come to mind!
Bye
Frederik
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osm.org (e.g. informationfreeway,
cyclemap, ...) whom you cannot force to use your technical solution?
Bye
Frederik
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that their work is not lost to the project. Sounds easiest
to me. Those who don't do that will be included in the general license
change E-Mail process later.
Bye
Frederik
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one about the guy
writing invoices was real.
Bye
Frederik
(PS: Could we please simply go PD because then I wouldn't have to
waste anyone's time with questions like this...?)
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to
make a German translation for the folks on talk-de?
Bye
Frederik
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*
wants.
I'm not saying this is good, or your idea is bad, I'm just saying I
think it is unworkable with the current license.
Bye
Frederik
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on it, thus avoiding importing it to
OSM; *maybe* it would try to put only stuff on the tiles where OSM
hasn't got its own data so this would make an nice extension to OSM
without license problems. But all this is very vague at the moment.
Bye
Frederik
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Frederik Ramm ## eMail [EMAIL PROTECTED
and the other mappers, each of whom
might have a different idea.
And with these words I hand over to Richard F who will tell you how
all this is hoped to improve in the future :-)
Bye
Frederik
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.
Is it relevant to us?
Bye
Frederik
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than copyleft.
Bye
Frederik
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in the database that are likely to be factual and
excluded from the scope of copyright and the Creative Commons license.
(unqoute)
Bye
Frederik
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that there was broad support for it, we would now be one
happy project with all the legal hassles out of the way? It's not to
late to see the light!
Bye
Frederik
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(e.g. forcing people to stick to certain
tagging rules or mapping techniques, forcing edits through a review
process, defining centrally which WMS backgrounds are allowable and
which aren't, etc.). Maybe the world is just not ready for truly open
geodata ;-)
Bye
Frederik
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, and
my birthplace, and my parent's house...?
Bye
Frederik
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by a contributor.
I'm setting a Followup to legal-talk as such things aren't generally of
interest to people on talk.
Bye
Frederik
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it for granted that we can use them. So if the
government puts up signs that have the names of 10 streets on them,
like your example does, we can obviuosly use them as well.
Bye
Frederik
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Frederik Ramm ## eMail [EMAIL PROTECTED] ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33
Hi,
Jukka Rahkonen wrote:
Now the question is if these data can be used. These is this document
about terms of use:
http://dataservice.eea.europa.eu/dataservice/termsofuse.asp
... which explicitly prohibits commercial use unless the agency has
expressly granted the right to do so.
Then in
Hi,
The right place would obviously be user Pranas' inbox. Have you at least
made an attempt talking to him before demanding, in public, that all his
contributions should be deleted?
I have to admit that the very detailed examples that Albertas brought up in
his mail, do look convincing
Hi,
It's not like the current Creative Commons license for OSM forbids
commercial use.
This is true but some commercial uses might become un-viable because of
the SA license.
My standard example is this:
Assume you spend half a year making a nice hiking atlas from OSM data,
putting a lot
whether TeleAtlas or whoever use my data
for their commercial gain, as long as I have full access freedom myself.
Sure, Google could pull all our PD data into their Map Maker... but I'd
read that as a compliment.
Bye
Frederik
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Hi,
Iván Sánchez Ortega wrote:
putting several
layers together is not considered a derivative work but a collaborative work,
collective
Bye
Frederik
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to someone whom I pay to do something with it for
me - as if he were my employee, and (b) giving a data base to a customer
to use as he pleases.
Bye
Frederik
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your point is.
Bye
Frederik
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by osm2pgsql. (Seems I misunderstood you, I thought
you denied that idea.)
Next question... do we *want* that?
Bye
Frederik
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Ivan,
Iván Sánchez Ortega wrote:
Right now, the wording of the ODbL includes the word public a few more
times
than I think it's neccesary, so it works differently (i.e. I think it doesn't
pass the DFSG dissident test).
I agree - could you add something about that dissident test on the
Hi,
Simon Ward wrote:
Merely processing into a different format needs to be clarified. If
someone takes OSM ways + nodes + relations and imports it into PostGIS
without changing any of it, I see that as processing into a different
format. I believe that PostGIS DB should be freely
Hi,
Simon Ward wrote:
On Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 06:20:32PM +0200, Iván Sánchez Ortega wrote:
I cannot speak for everyone, but I do think that the general idea is to make
the ODbL work like a copyleft license (i.e. you're required to distribute
the source data only to the people you distribute
Hi,
let's try to sort this out, I think I still not get your point fully.
Simon Ward wrote:
I’m about creating a world map that’s free for the world and remains
free for the world.
I'll recap the typical concept behind that: If our database were PD then
it would be free but it would not
... this whole discussion is, once again, getting into the
negative, with us discussing all sorts of evil uses that have to be
safeguarded against by implementing measures that will be a burden to
everyone, evil or not evil.)
Bye
Frederik
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provision about the
type of license you want to use derived data under, I guess it should be
possible to create any data that way.
Then again, we wouldn't want Yahoo to get all scared and say if that is
the case then we'd rather re-read our terms again...
Bye
Frederik
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for integrated experiences.
But still the one extra level difference remains and could only be
removed by asking users to contribute directly to Cool New Database.
Bye
Frederik
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Frederik Ramm ## eMail [EMAIL PROTECTED] ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33
though, might be completely off. Mikel Maron is the guy who
had the talks with Yahoo so he's probably best suited to give you details.
Bye
Frederik
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Hi,
SteveC wrote:
Subject: License License License
Can we hear that as a limerick? ;-)
Bye
Frederik
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this database have to be published along
with my integrated experience?
I'm not asking about what the current license draft says, I'm asking
what we (the community) want from the user of our data in such cases.
Bye
Frederik
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Frederik Ramm ## eMail [EMAIL PROTECTED] ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33
database in this
picture and if yes, where? If you save as .pdf - any difference?
Bye
Frederik
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that it might cancel out the advantages.
Bye
Frederik
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Frederik
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where
he's got the data from - not us data providers.
Bye
Frederik
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treatment of
the work if that damages his reputation. Not the author may choose not
to be mentioned in connection with the work if someone decides to use it
in conjunction with human excrements for an art installation or so ;-)
Bye
Frederik
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Frederik
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your
results here before you give them to the lawyers so that we can point
out possible omissions.
Bye
Frederik
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just achieve this.
Bye
Frederik
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and publicy displaying these
- as long as you don't distribute or publicly display, the whole section
4 does not apply.
Bye
Frederik
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is actually the greatest problem with
the CC licenses and I'm happy not to see it repeated here.
Bye
Frederik
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the
name.
I would like to hear from the foundation about their concept of
acceptable use of the trademark. Would you, for example, allow
openstreetmapsucks.org and OpenStreetMap Services, Inc.? Who has a
say in the matter?
Bye
Frederik
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Frederik Ramm ## eMail [EMAIL PROTECTED] ## N49
that
these licenses are somehow all one family until they think about it and
find out that the members of this family don't particularly like each other.
Bye
Frederik
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Frederik Ramm ## eMail [EMAIL PROTECTED] ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33
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Hi,
80n wrote:
The key phrase is cannot be contacted and the import being that if
they were contactable they would probably agree to the new license. If
they subsequently make contact and don't agree to the new license then
they can legitimately claim that their copyright is being
just people like you and me, and
even though we have talked and thought about the licensing stuff
forever, we manage to come up with new and unprecedented license
questions every other day ;-)
Bye
Frederik
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Frederik Ramm ## eMail [EMAIL PROTECTED] ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33
I meant with the number 3 in my original post, yes ;-)
Bye
Frederik
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suggest that anyone editing
the page tries the same; If you think my wording is too strong (we must
decide blah blah) then just change it to something better (it would be
prudent to decide blah blah) or put a whole paragraph into perspective
or whatever.
Bye
Frederik
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Hi,
Peter Miller wrote:
I would however suggest that we avoid the
legal details where possible and try to just describe in plain english
what the problem is.
Well - in plain English there is no problem. The questions I am asking
arise from the legal construct! There is no core non-legal
for
OSMF business? The advantage would then be that half the board already
know how to use it ;-)
Bye
Frederik
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) upgrading scheme?
Bye
Frederik
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draft as published in 2.
6. if vote positive: implement license and ask mappers to sign up
7. if vote negative: back to the drawing board
Is that correct? Mikel?
Bye
Frederik
--
Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33
re-license; otherwise they can
always claim they were not clear about what they were signing.)
Bye
Frederik
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vandalism
and abuse and encouraged all to comment.
It would be interesting for us to have access to this document, as the
potential measures against repeated copyright infringement are probably
similar to those against vandalism and abuse.
Bye
Frederik
--
Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede
its essential capability of being accessed as a database.
And the essential capability of database-ness is protected, as Richard
pointed out, even if the data should be conveyed by means of a Produced
Work.
Bye
Frederik
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to be layered
application.
Bye
Frederik
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independent of the channel through which you
received the original database.
Bye
Frederik
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in
our Wiki but it will be a hell of a lot of work.
Bye
Frederik
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Hi,
Frederik Ramm wrote:
We need to clarify this once and for all: Where exactly in the following
typical rendering chain does the thing cease to be a database in our
definition?
* download (section of) OSM data
* make changes to OSM data
* render OSM data into vector graphics format
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way or another.
Bye
Frederik
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Hi,
80n wrote:
I can imagine a scenario where, for example, Google uses Amazon's Mechanical
Turk to pay lots of people to use Map Maker to trace from OSM's rendered
tiles.
Is this a scenario we could try to fight when it happens, instead of
complicating things upfront, or would it be too
).
Bye
Frederik
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(URI) [...] both in the Database [...]
and in any relevant documentation
Bye
Frederik
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mechanism for those that pop up later, rather than rushing through
something where we already have a list of known bugs.
Bye
Frederik
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manages to strip off the license then all is lost.
Bye
Frederik
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.
(For the record, even though I run a company that is set to benefit from
OSMF reducing service because this would increase the market for
commercial map data providers, I don't advocate such a move.)
Bye
Frederik
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Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33
is perhaps not as concise as you (Steve) would have
liked when you asked for a list to be emailed but I think it is the
best we can do without loss of information.
Bye
Frederik
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Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33
up; think of publishing
an R rated film under CC-BY-SA where you will be required to add the
restriction to not sell it to under-18s (depending on jurisdiction etc etc).
Bye
Frederik
--
Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33
) an OSM dataset licensed
exactly as it is today. Great win!
See also:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Open_Data_License/Suggested_Changes#Possible_solution_.231:_Explicitly_allow_popular_SA_licenses
Bye
Frederik
--
Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33
unfriendly country and
do WTFYW if you're the kind of person so inclined.
Bye
Frederik
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of compatible SA licenses for Produced Works.
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Frederik
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step. So we should perhaps not go over
the top. It is unlikely that we'll ever have a license that works in
North Korea.
Bye
Frederik
[*] (assuming the use-convey blunder is fixed but it if it isn't then
ODbL is unlikely to be used for OSM)
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it
is not any better than CC-BY-SA.
Bye
Frederik
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Hi,
And therefore, I presume the same is true if the program is a Flash
app (running client-side, of course, albeit with a browser frame
around it) which outputs the result as a PDF - which Fred can then
save to his local hard drive and/or print. Right?
Since you're asking me
Hi,
Nick Black wrote:
I've always felt that you were completely aligned behind the aims of OSM -
we can disagree, but at the end of the day we're all here for the same
reason. Right now, its really hard to find anything positive or
constructive in your ongoing bombardment of these lists.
Hi,
Grant Slater wrote:
We're made up of native English and Dutch speakers, we need assistance
from people who speak other languages.
I have already done a lot of translation work into German for the
license process (as have others), and have generally tried to inform the
people on talk-de
Hi,
Russ Nelson wrote:
I don't want a virus, but I like the reciprocal nature of these
licenses.
Reciprocal is not the correct term IMHO. Reciprocal would mean that if
you take our data you will have to give us something in return.
Bye
Frederik
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an informed
decision, then how can Joe Mapper who hasn't even followed the discussion?
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Frederik
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with interpretation and continuous
development of the license. To my understanding OSMF has not yet
nominated anyone for this job. Any volunteers?
Bye
Frederik
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Hi,
Mohamad Ali wrote:
1.We develop a tracking system used for GPS devices, so we display the
vehicles on map in real time,..
Can we have your tracks ;-)
My question is : what are the terms and conditions of using ' OpenStreetMap
' for a tracking system?
I mean can we use it for
by those who are party to it
before it can be of legal relevance.
(Maybe you're reading this on dev and are unaware of the 1000+ postings
in the previous year on legal-talk about the matter...?)
Bye
Frederik
--
Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33
,
just peer through the XML with *any* text editor and Ctrl+F)
your raw XML processing capabilites seem to vastly exceed mine ;-)
Bye
Frederik
--
Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33
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legal
of 237 tile choices depending on
your request characteristics. Surely my.tel cannot be expected to deal
with this, so in my eyes route-me should make sure that if they hand out
OSM tiles, they also hand out the matching attribution...
Bye
Frederik
--
Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org
-license the whole of OSM under ODbL and
CC-BY-SA. Has that been discussed and found to be a good idea?
Or does OSMF not have the intention of declaring CC-BY-SA a compatible
license, and if not, how will CC-BY-SA licensed produced works be made
possible?
Bye
Frederik
--
Frederik Ramm
Hi,
Jukka Rahkonen wrote:
Thus it would be allowed to to take
less than 100 features or area of less than 1000 inhabitants and make PD,
Share
alike or commercial derivatives from that without any restrictions. Is my
interpretation right?
There's the problem of the reverse-engineering
.
Bye
Frederik
--
Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33
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http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Hi,
Frederik Ramm wrote:
What I'm concerned with is mainly: How big is the risk of someone
whitewashing our data from the contractual part of the ODbL,
I should have explained: Such whitewashing would require someone to
breach the contract by removing all licensing information
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