Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Taiwan Open Government Data License

[Simon Poole]

I think you are misunderstanding my concern. Naturally we are not
negating that there may be cases in which we are liable for damages
because a court comes to the conclusion that we negligent in one way or
the other, but that would be in court where we have a chance to defend
ourselves against such a claim (or more likely in which we would
negotiate a settlement). My only question is if the 2nd part of 6.3 does
not  essentially amount to an agreement to indemnify the "Data Providing
Organisation" in situations in which we wouldn't be able to defend
ourselves against the claim of "wrongful misconducting".

"The same reimbursement rule for wrongful misconducting shall be applied
to the User when the damaged one is a third party and the compensations
have already been disbursed by the Data Providing Organization to the
third party due to a legal claim."

IMHO a local Taiwanese counsel needs to answer the question, it is not a
question of my interpretation.

Simon

PS: CC BY is not compatible with the ODbL, see
https://blog.openstreetmap.org/2017/03/17/use-of-cc-by-data/ for more
information

Am 17.05.2017 um 07:03 schrieb Rex Tsai:
> Hi,
>
> Since the open data on data.gov.tw from Taiwan government
> covers only Taiwan, I assumed that any legal case will be following
> Taiwan law and Taiwan Civil Code.
>
> On your concern, "does useful things with the data" does not mean
> a mapper can just import the data negligently. I believe any import
> process or routing algorithms should be designed and implemented
> carefully.
>
> In Article 184 of Taiwan Civil Code[1], it said:
> "A person, who violates a statutory provision enacted for the protection
> of others and therefore prejudice to others, is bound to compensate for
> the injury, EXCEPT NO NEGLIGENCE IN HIS ACT CAN BE PROVIDED."
>
> In the license[2] clause 6.2, it also removes the liable for damage claims
> from "Data Providing Organisation".
>
> 6.2. The Data Providing Organization shall not be liable for damage or
> loss User encounters when he/she makes use of the Open Data provided
> under the License. This disclaimer applies as well when User has third
> parties encountered damage or loss and thus has been claimed for
> remedies.  Unless otherwise specified according to law, the Data
> Providing Organization SHALL NOT BE HELD RESPONSIBLE FO
> ANY DAMAGES OR COMPENSATIONS HEREIN.
>
> I read that as warning said the data importer is responsible if he/she
> intentionally messed up with the data, or not give warning notice about
> the risks of routing algorithms
>
> If you don't feel comfortable about the terms, the Open Government
> Data License also allow the data to be licensed under Creative Commons
> Attribution License 4.0 International in clause 4.2.
>
> [1] http://law.moj.gov.tw/Eng/LawClass/LawAll.aspx?PCode=B001
> [2] http://data.gov.tw/license#eng
> Cheers
> -Rex
>
> 2017-05-17 2:25 GMT+08:00 Simon Poole :
>> Good to see that 6.3 at least raised half an eye brow with the OKFN,
>> they seem to however chosen the most harmless interpretation possible,
>> my reading would be that it could be equivalent to a hold
>> harmless/indemnification clause. Now for probably 99.9% of OKFNs
>> audience the concerns are probably irrelevant, but OpenStreetMap:
>>
>> - does useful things with the data
>>
>> - distributes the data as Open Data further so that other people and
>> organisations can do useful things with it
>>
>> Useful things include maps, routing and so on. As a result the exposure
>> to something going wrong can be quite large, and the scenario in which
>> the "Data Providing Organisation" makes a pay out to a US Tourist suing
>> everybody in sight for whatever mishap and then tries to recover the
>> money by trying to get it from us is not so far fetched. Article 184 is
>> naturally fairly standard fare as legislation goes, but I'm at a bit of
>> a loss seeing were that ties in to the 2nd part of 6.3 which would make
>> us liable for damage claims that we could not directly defend ourselves
>> against.
>>
>> Simon
>>
>>
>> Am 16.05.2017 um 13:23 schrieb Rex Tsai:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> "Open Government Data License Taiwan 1.0" just has been approved as
>>> Open Definition Conformant License[1] last month.
>>>
>>> There were some discussion[2] about clause 6.3, it does not impose any
>>> additional agreement nor does it impose any restrictions, but a
>>> reminding and a corresponding clause to Article 184 of Taiwan Civil
>>> Code[3].
>>>
>>> We also discussed the issue of 3.2, when I proposed to include NLSC tile
>>> into editor-layer-index[4]. However, as the local community does not
>>> have a registered legal entity, we don't have a written agreement on the
>>> attribution requirement.
>>>
>>> If you like to import the data from data.gov.tw, please kindly follow
>>> the import process, so we can notify the copyright holder for the
>>> requested attribution.
>>>
>>> [1] http://opendefinition.org/licenses/
>>> [2] 
>>> 

Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Taiwan Open Government Data License

[積丹尼 Dan Jacobson]

I will be happy to proceed according to Rex's instructions, but not
until Simon says it is OK.

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Taiwan Open Government Data License

[Rex Tsai]

Hi,

Since the open data on data.gov.tw from Taiwan government
covers only Taiwan, I assumed that any legal case will be following
Taiwan law and Taiwan Civil Code.

On your concern, "does useful things with the data" does not mean
a mapper can just import the data negligently. I believe any import
process or routing algorithms should be designed and implemented
carefully.

In Article 184 of Taiwan Civil Code[1], it said:
"A person, who violates a statutory provision enacted for the protection
of others and therefore prejudice to others, is bound to compensate for
the injury, EXCEPT NO NEGLIGENCE IN HIS ACT CAN BE PROVIDED."

In the license[2] clause 6.2, it also removes the liable for damage claims
from "Data Providing Organisation".

6.2. The Data Providing Organization shall not be liable for damage or
loss User encounters when he/she makes use of the Open Data provided
under the License. This disclaimer applies as well when User has third
parties encountered damage or loss and thus has been claimed for
remedies.  Unless otherwise specified according to law, the Data
Providing Organization SHALL NOT BE HELD RESPONSIBLE FO
ANY DAMAGES OR COMPENSATIONS HEREIN.

I read that as warning said the data importer is responsible if he/she
intentionally messed up with the data, or not give warning notice about
the risks of routing algorithms

If you don't feel comfortable about the terms, the Open Government
Data License also allow the data to be licensed under Creative Commons
Attribution License 4.0 International in clause 4.2.

[1] http://law.moj.gov.tw/Eng/LawClass/LawAll.aspx?PCode=B001
[2] http://data.gov.tw/license#eng
Cheers
-Rex

2017-05-17 2:25 GMT+08:00 Simon Poole :
> Good to see that 6.3 at least raised half an eye brow with the OKFN,
> they seem to however chosen the most harmless interpretation possible,
> my reading would be that it could be equivalent to a hold
> harmless/indemnification clause. Now for probably 99.9% of OKFNs
> audience the concerns are probably irrelevant, but OpenStreetMap:
>
> - does useful things with the data
>
> - distributes the data as Open Data further so that other people and
> organisations can do useful things with it
>
> Useful things include maps, routing and so on. As a result the exposure
> to something going wrong can be quite large, and the scenario in which
> the "Data Providing Organisation" makes a pay out to a US Tourist suing
> everybody in sight for whatever mishap and then tries to recover the
> money by trying to get it from us is not so far fetched. Article 184 is
> naturally fairly standard fare as legislation goes, but I'm at a bit of
> a loss seeing were that ties in to the 2nd part of 6.3 which would make
> us liable for damage claims that we could not directly defend ourselves
> against.
>
> Simon
>
>
> Am 16.05.2017 um 13:23 schrieb Rex Tsai:
>> Hi,
>>
>> "Open Government Data License Taiwan 1.0" just has been approved as
>> Open Definition Conformant License[1] last month.
>>
>> There were some discussion[2] about clause 6.3, it does not impose any
>> additional agreement nor does it impose any restrictions, but a
>> reminding and a corresponding clause to Article 184 of Taiwan Civil
>> Code[3].
>>
>> We also discussed the issue of 3.2, when I proposed to include NLSC tile
>> into editor-layer-index[4]. However, as the local community does not
>> have a registered legal entity, we don't have a written agreement on the
>> attribution requirement.
>>
>> If you like to import the data from data.gov.tw, please kindly follow
>> the import process, so we can notify the copyright holder for the
>> requested attribution.
>>
>> [1] http://opendefinition.org/licenses/
>> [2] 
>> https://discuss.okfn.org/t/license-approval-request-open-government-data-license-taiwan-1-0/4593/12
>> [3] http://law.moj.gov.tw/Eng/LawClass/LawAll.aspx?PCode=B001
>> [4] https://github.com/osmlab/editor-layer-index/pull/255
>> [5] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Guidelines
>>
>> Cheers
>> -Rex
>>
>> On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 05:49:46AM +0800, 積丹尼 Dan Jacobson wrote:
>>> OK thanks Simon for the clarification!
>>> I'll ask the participants of
>>> https://www.facebook.com/groups/odtwn/permalink/1927450013936074/?comment_id=1927539973927078
>>>  and
>>> https://discuss.okfn.org/t/license-approval-request-open-government-data-license-taiwan-1-0/4593/12
>>> to chime in here to get this straightened out!
>>>
 "SP" == Simon Poole  writes:
>>> SP> As has already been pointed out 3.2 could be problematic. The
>>> SP> translation is a bit wobbly and unclear, but if I understand it
>>> SP> correctly the intent is to reference a data set specific attribution
>>> SP> requirement that would naturally have to be looked at for any specific
>>> SP> data use.
>>>
>>> SP> The really killer is however 6.3 (which should have a different section
>>> SP> header) which I suspect is incompatible with the Open Definition and a
>>> SP> lot of other stuff (including 

Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Taiwan Open Government Data License

[Simon Poole]

Good to see that 6.3 at least raised half an eye brow with the OKFN,
they seem to however chosen the most harmless interpretation possible,
my reading would be that it could be equivalent to a hold
harmless/indemnification clause. Now for probably 99.9% of OKFNs
audience the concerns are probably irrelevant, but OpenStreetMap:

- does useful things with the data

- distributes the data as Open Data further so that other people and
organisations can do useful things with it

Useful things include maps, routing and so on. As a result the exposure
to something going wrong can be quite large, and the scenario in which
the "Data Providing Organisation" makes a pay out to a US Tourist suing
everybody in sight for whatever mishap and then tries to recover the
money by trying to get it from us is not so far fetched. Article 184 is
naturally fairly standard fare as legislation goes, but I'm at a bit of
a loss seeing were that ties in to the 2nd part of 6.3 which would make
us liable for damage claims that we could not directly defend ourselves
against.

Simon


Am 16.05.2017 um 13:23 schrieb Rex Tsai:
> Hi,
>
> "Open Government Data License Taiwan 1.0" just has been approved as 
> Open Definition Conformant License[1] last month.
>
> There were some discussion[2] about clause 6.3, it does not impose any 
> additional agreement nor does it impose any restrictions, but a 
> reminding and a corresponding clause to Article 184 of Taiwan Civil
> Code[3].
>
> We also discussed the issue of 3.2, when I proposed to include NLSC tile
> into editor-layer-index[4]. However, as the local community does not
> have a registered legal entity, we don't have a written agreement on the
> attribution requirement.
>
> If you like to import the data from data.gov.tw, please kindly follow
> the import process, so we can notify the copyright holder for the 
> requested attribution.
>
> [1] http://opendefinition.org/licenses/
> [2] 
> https://discuss.okfn.org/t/license-approval-request-open-government-data-license-taiwan-1-0/4593/12
> [3] http://law.moj.gov.tw/Eng/LawClass/LawAll.aspx?PCode=B001
> [4] https://github.com/osmlab/editor-layer-index/pull/255
> [5] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Guidelines
>
> Cheers
> -Rex
>
> On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 05:49:46AM +0800, 積丹尼 Dan Jacobson wrote:
>> OK thanks Simon for the clarification!
>> I'll ask the participants of
>> https://www.facebook.com/groups/odtwn/permalink/1927450013936074/?comment_id=1927539973927078
>>  and
>> https://discuss.okfn.org/t/license-approval-request-open-government-data-license-taiwan-1-0/4593/12
>> to chime in here to get this straightened out!
>>
>>> "SP" == Simon Poole  writes:
>> SP> As has already been pointed out 3.2 could be problematic. The
>> SP> translation is a bit wobbly and unclear, but if I understand it
>> SP> correctly the intent is to reference a data set specific attribution
>> SP> requirement that would naturally have to be looked at for any specific
>> SP> data use.
>>
>> SP> The really killer is however 6.3 (which should have a different section
>> SP> header) which I suspect is incompatible with the Open Definition and a
>> SP> lot of other stuff (including common sense :-)).
>>
>> SP> Simon
>>
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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Taiwan Open Government Data License

[Rex Tsai]

Hi,

"Open Government Data License Taiwan 1.0" just has been approved as 
Open Definition Conformant License[1] last month.

There were some discussion[2] about clause 6.3, it does not impose any 
additional agreement nor does it impose any restrictions, but a 
reminding and a corresponding clause to Article 184 of Taiwan Civil
Code[3].

We also discussed the issue of 3.2, when I proposed to include NLSC tile
into editor-layer-index[4]. However, as the local community does not
have a registered legal entity, we don't have a written agreement on the
attribution requirement.

If you like to import the data from data.gov.tw, please kindly follow
the import process, so we can notify the copyright holder for the 
requested attribution.

[1] http://opendefinition.org/licenses/
[2] 
https://discuss.okfn.org/t/license-approval-request-open-government-data-license-taiwan-1-0/4593/12
[3] http://law.moj.gov.tw/Eng/LawClass/LawAll.aspx?PCode=B001
[4] https://github.com/osmlab/editor-layer-index/pull/255
[5] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Guidelines

Cheers
-Rex

On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 05:49:46AM +0800, 積丹尼 Dan Jacobson wrote:
> OK thanks Simon for the clarification!
> I'll ask the participants of
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/odtwn/permalink/1927450013936074/?comment_id=1927539973927078
>  and
> https://discuss.okfn.org/t/license-approval-request-open-government-data-license-taiwan-1-0/4593/12
> to chime in here to get this straightened out!
> 
> > "SP" == Simon Poole  writes:
> 
> SP> As has already been pointed out 3.2 could be problematic. The
> SP> translation is a bit wobbly and unclear, but if I understand it
> SP> correctly the intent is to reference a data set specific attribution
> SP> requirement that would naturally have to be looked at for any specific
> SP> data use.
> 
> SP> The really killer is however 6.3 (which should have a different section
> SP> header) which I suspect is incompatible with the Open Definition and a
> SP> lot of other stuff (including common sense :-)).
> 
> SP> Simon
> 

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Taiwan Open Government Data License

[積丹尼 Dan Jacobson]

OK thanks Simon for the clarification!
I'll ask the participants of
https://www.facebook.com/groups/odtwn/permalink/1927450013936074/?comment_id=1927539973927078
 and
https://discuss.okfn.org/t/license-approval-request-open-government-data-license-taiwan-1-0/4593/12
to chime in here to get this straightened out!

> "SP" == Simon Poole  writes:

SP> As has already been pointed out 3.2 could be problematic. The
SP> translation is a bit wobbly and unclear, but if I understand it
SP> correctly the intent is to reference a data set specific attribution
SP> requirement that would naturally have to be looked at for any specific
SP> data use.

SP> The really killer is however 6.3 (which should have a different section
SP> header) which I suspect is incompatible with the Open Definition and a
SP> lot of other stuff (including common sense :-)).

SP> Simon

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Taiwan Open Government Data License

[Simon Poole]

As has already been pointed out 3.2 could be problematic. The
translation is a bit wobbly and unclear, but if I understand it
correctly the intent is to reference a data set specific attribution
requirement that would naturally have to be looked at for any specific
data use.

The really killer is however 6.3 (which should have a different section
header) which I suspect is incompatible with the Open Definition and a
lot of other stuff (including common sense :-)).

Simon


Am 25.04.2017 um 01:38 schrieb 積丹尼 Dan Jacobson:
> What do you folks think about
> http://data.gov.tw/license#eng ?
> Can we use that data?
>
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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Taiwan Open Government Data License

[積丹尼 Dan Jacobson]

Yes I wrote the legal questions people week ago but nobody replied.
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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Taiwan Open Government Data License

[積丹尼 Dan Jacobson]

Yes I asked legal-questions a week ago and no one answered. Perhaps
someone could ask them for me. Thanks.

> "KL" == Kathleen Lu  writes:

KL> Hi Dan,
KL> The English version, at least, appears less restrictive than CC BY 4.0, and
KL> closer to the Canada Open Government License. The license is not specific
KL> as to the type of attribution required.
KL> The conservative route, is, as Frederik said, to ask the agency if
KL> attribution on the osm.org/copyright webpage is acceptable. If it is, then
KL> I see no other barriers to using the data.  You might also ask the opinion
KL> of the Licensing Working Group at legal-questions at osmfoundation.org
KL> Best,
KL> Kathleen

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Taiwan Open Government Data License

[Kathleen Lu]

Hi Dan,
The English version, at least, appears less restrictive than CC BY 4.0, and
closer to the Canada Open Government License. The license is not specific
as to the type of attribution required.
The conservative route, is, as Frederik said, to ask the agency if
attribution on the osm.org/copyright webpage is acceptable. If it is, then
I see no other barriers to using the data.  You might also ask the opinion
of the Licensing Working Group at legal-questi...@osmfoundation.org
Best,
Kathleen

On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 4:34 AM Frederik Ramm  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On 04/25/2017 01:38 AM, 積丹尼 Dan Jacobson wrote:
> > What do you folks think about
> > http://data.gov.tw/license#eng ?
> > Can we use that data?
>
> Not without further clarification. The way in which we would use the
> data could be seen as violating their 3.2: "[The user] must make an
> explicit notice of statement as attribution requested in the Exhibit
> below by the Data Providing Organization". We *can* make such an
> explicit notice on our osm.org/copyright page but we cannot ensure that
> anyone who downloads our data or who looks at our map sees that notice.
> We have to ask them if that kind of notice is enough.
>
> This is a similar issue as we always have with CC-BY licensed data.
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
> --
> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
>
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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Taiwan Open Government Data License

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 04/25/2017 01:38 AM, 積丹尼 Dan Jacobson wrote:
> What do you folks think about
> http://data.gov.tw/license#eng ?
> Can we use that data?

Not without further clarification. The way in which we would use the
data could be seen as violating their 3.2: "[The user] must make an
explicit notice of statement as attribution requested in the Exhibit
below by the Data Providing Organization". We *can* make such an
explicit notice on our osm.org/copyright page but we cannot ensure that
anyone who downloads our data or who looks at our map sees that notice.
We have to ask them if that kind of notice is enough.

This is a similar issue as we always have with CC-BY licensed data.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
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