Re: [liberationtech] In defense of client-side encryption

2013-08-13 Thread Francisco Ruiz
Hi Steve. I want to thank you for taking your time to help me. Your comments are awesome. May I follow up with some short questions, right after some of your comments? Many thanks in advance. On Mon, Aug 12, 2013 at 7:18 PM, Steve Weis stevew...@gmail.com wrote: Francisco, you assume that all

Re: [liberationtech] In defense of client-side encryption (Guido Witmond)

2013-08-12 Thread Guido Witmond
Thank you for your quick response. I'm not convinced by your arguements yet. I comment in between. On 08/12/13 04:13, Francisco Ruiz wrote: In your message, you wrote: 1. I have to *run* it to get the hash of the application from the help page. That is already a leap of faith to run

Re: [liberationtech] In defense of client-side encryption

2013-08-12 Thread danimoth
On 11/08/13 at 09:37pm, Francisco Ruiz wrote: I still have to read through the references you supply, but I can already see a misconception. They refer to the dangers of carrying out cryptography with javascript-containing dynamic pages. My previous posting referred to _perfectly static_ pages

Re: [liberationtech] In defense of client-side encryption

2013-08-12 Thread Ximin Luo
On 11/08/13 22:28, Nadim Kobeissi wrote: On 2013-08-11, at 10:36 PM, danimoth danim...@cryptolab.net wrote: On 11/08/13 at 01:10pm, Francisco Ruiz wrote: Twice again, privacy has taken a hit across the land. Lavabit and Silent Mail are gone, and to quote Phil Zimmermann, “the writing is on

Re: [liberationtech] In defense of client-side encryption

2013-08-12 Thread Arjen Kamphuis
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 08/11/2013 08:10 PM, Francisco Ruiz wrote: There’s no legal action that can shut down PassLok because it consist of pure code, and pure code is speech, protected from government interference under the 1^st amendment to the US Constitution. For

Re: [liberationtech] In defense of client-side encryption

2013-08-12 Thread Eugen Leitl
On Mon, Aug 12, 2013 at 01:46:26PM +0200, Arjen Kamphuis wrote: Client-side encryption means a Free Software code stack running on a machine that is physically under your control at all time. Anything else is BS. Indeed. And it can be argued that we even need open, fully inspectable hardware,

Re: [liberationtech] In defense of client-side encryption

2013-08-12 Thread Ximin Luo
On 12/08/13 14:02, Ben Laurie wrote: On 12 August 2013 06:14, Ximin Luo infini...@gmx.com wrote: How is it possible to defend against timing attacks in JS? Any language theoretically can be complied into anything, but the JS runtime does not give you much control in what the CPU actually

Re: [liberationtech] In defense of client-side encryption

2013-08-12 Thread Francisco Ruiz
Thanks for a thoughtful and extensive reply. Let me see if I'm understanding your position correctly. Running crypto code in a browser is inherently insecure because we don't really know what the browser is doing with it, regardless of whether it is communicating with a server. Of course, we can't

Re: [liberationtech] In defense of client-side encryption

2013-08-12 Thread Francisco Ruiz
Hey Arjen, you make a huge point. Unfortunately the Netherlands aren't any better this way, are they? Looking around, it seems the only safe place for a crypto server these days would be Switzerland. I'm ready to move my stuff over there. Does anybody know of a good, cheap, SSL-enabled web host

Re: [liberationtech] In defense of client-side encryption

2013-08-12 Thread danimoth
On 12/08/13 at 02:58pm, Francisco Ruiz wrote: Thanks for a thoughtful and extensive reply. Let me see if I'm understanding your position correctly. [snip, snip, snip] So, trusting the OS but not trusting the browser seems to me a curious case of double standard. They are made by the same

Re: [liberationtech] In defense of client-side encryption

2013-08-12 Thread Ali-Reza Anghaie
I'm sorry but aren't we spending a lot of time conflating code quality, secure coding practices, software distribution, .. with ~JavaScript in a browser~? There are alternate pathways, signed and delivered as a Dashboard widget via the Apple App Store for example. I'm not proposing ~that~ as

Re: [liberationtech] In defense of client-side encryption

2013-08-12 Thread Arjen Kamphuis
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi Francisco, On 08/12/2013 10:04 PM, Francisco Ruiz wrote: Hey Arjen, you make a huge point. Unfortunately the Netherlands aren't any better this way, are they? They are not, being a fully signed up member of the Coalition of the Killing. And

Re: [liberationtech] In defense of client-side encryption

2013-08-12 Thread Tom O
So re Germany bring the bastion of Internet freedom blah blah, are we all forgetting about the Staatstrojaner? Or have we forgiven them for that now? On Tuesday, August 13, 2013, Arjen Kamphuis wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi Francisco, On 08/12/2013 10:04 PM,

Re: [liberationtech] In defense of client-side encryption

2013-08-12 Thread Arjen Kamphuis
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 08/13/2013 12:48 AM, Tom O wrote: So re Germany bring the bastion of Internet freedom blah blah, are we all forgetting about the Staatstrojaner? No we are not. But the difference between Germany and many other countries is the outrage and

Re: [liberationtech] In defense of client-side encryption

2013-08-12 Thread Steve Weis
Francisco, you assume that all browsers will save a static version of the page identically. This is not the case. I ran a test using 'wget https://passlok.site44.com' and Chrome's Save As. The former will actually match the hash value you've posted, but the latter does not. I spotted at least 5

Re: [liberationtech] In defense of client-side encryption

2013-08-12 Thread Arjen Kamphuis
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 08/13/2013 01:58 AM, Tom O wrote: That's not a good enough reason to trust Germany. And I don't. I trust the German people to stand up when it counts. Because they know the consequence of failing to do so. Ensuring privacy is not a requirement

[liberationtech] In defense of client-side encryption

2013-08-11 Thread Francisco Ruiz
Twice again, privacy has taken a hit across the land. Lavabit and Silent Mail are gone, and to quote Phil Zimmermann, “the writing is on the wall” for any other encrypted email provider located in US territory. This is sure to be repeated for servers located in Europe and other countries. Is this

Re: [liberationtech] In defense of client-side encryption

2013-08-11 Thread Kyle Maxwell
Side note: please don't use LibTech as a marketing tool. Occasional mentions are good, but I feel like you're flagging it a little too much and too often. Just a friendly note. :) On Sun, Aug 11, 2013 at 1:10 PM, Francisco Ruiz r...@iit.edu wrote: Twice again, privacy has taken a hit across the

Re: [liberationtech] In defense of client-side encryption

2013-08-11 Thread Guido Witmond
On 08/11/13 20:10, Francisco Ruiz wrote: Download it from its source at https://passlok.site44.com (once you have it once, you have it forever), look at it, run it, test it. Get its SHA256 hash from its help page and check it. If you’re as paranoid as I am, you can watch me reading that hash

Re: [liberationtech] In defense of client-side encryption

2013-08-11 Thread danimoth
On 11/08/13 at 01:10pm, Francisco Ruiz wrote: Twice again, privacy has taken a hit across the land. Lavabit and Silent Mail are gone, and to quote Phil Zimmermann, “the writing is on the wall” for any other encrypted email provider located in US territory. This is sure to be repeated for

Re: [liberationtech] In defense of client-side encryption

2013-08-11 Thread Ximin Luo
On 11/08/13 20:36, danimoth wrote: On 11/08/13 at 01:10pm, Francisco Ruiz wrote: Twice again, privacy has taken a hit across the land. Lavabit and Silent Mail are gone, and to quote Phil Zimmermann, “the writing is on the wall” for any other encrypted email provider located in US territory.

Re: [liberationtech] In defense of client-side encryption

2013-08-11 Thread Eduardo Robles Elvira
Hello everyone: I believe we need is an standard way to do client side encryption in the web. We need secure end-to-end communications in the web, so that we don't need to be trust and dependent on the html/css/javascript given by any server. We have a server in the middle security problem. This

Re: [liberationtech] In defense of client-side encryption

2013-08-11 Thread Nadim Kobeissi
On 2013-08-11, at 10:36 PM, danimoth danim...@cryptolab.net wrote: On 11/08/13 at 01:10pm, Francisco Ruiz wrote: Twice again, privacy has taken a hit across the land. Lavabit and Silent Mail are gone, and to quote Phil Zimmermann, “the writing is on the wall” for any other encrypted email

Re: [liberationtech] In defense of client-side encryption (Guido Witmond)

2013-08-11 Thread Francisco Ruiz
In your message, you wrote: 1. I have to *run* it to get the hash of the application from the help page. That is already a leap of faith to run unverified code. Good point. A counterfeit copy of the page might lead to a different server, and the help page thus obtained would display a different

Re: [liberationtech] In defense of client-side encryption

2013-08-11 Thread Francisco Ruiz
Thanks for the warning. I'll be more careful in the future ;-) BTW, I'm having trouble replying to postings in a way that will show in the log. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. Is there a help page detailing best practices for the mail list? -- Francisco Ruiz Associate Professor MMAE

Re: [liberationtech] In defense of client-side encryption

2013-08-11 Thread Francisco Ruiz
Thanks for the warning. I'll be more careful in the future ;-) BTW, I'm having trouble replying to postings in a way that will show in the log. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. Is there a help page detailing best practices for the mail list? -- Francisco Ruiz Associate Professor MMAE

Re: [liberationtech] In defense of client-side encryption

2013-08-11 Thread Francisco Ruiz
@danimoth, sorry if this is duplicate. I'm re-sending this a different way so it can be seen by all. Thanks for the quick feedback. In there, you say, First, it is in Javascript. Who needs cryptography, SHOULD NOT use javascript. Google can help you ([1] for example, [2] if you are coming from a

Re: [liberationtech] In defense of client-side encryption

2013-08-11 Thread Francisco Ruiz
@Edulix (hombre, un paisano ;-) I believe we need is an standard way to do client side encryption in the web. We need secure end-to-end communications in the web, so that we don't need to be trust and dependent on the html/css/javascript given by any server. We have a server in the middle