At 9:38 AM -0600 11/27/04, Edward Martin wrote:
the sources never mention roped
gut. I can imagine that roping gut is a modern invention, rather than a
historical fact. I have found the same results with roping, that it gives
a rather dull sound. The lower tension solution seems to be logical.
Dear Francesco,
I agree completely that the sources suggest even feel across the strings,
and 13N or whatever is implausibly low. I don't know how to resolve the
apparently impossible combination of clear, stiff, non-roped, non-loaded
strings thin enough to go through bridge holes, and
PROTECTED]
la.or.jpcc:
Subject: Re: thoughts on low
tension on Baroque lutes
on low tension on Baroque lutes
Dear Francesco,
I agree completely that the sources suggest even feel across the
strings,
and 13N or whatever is implausibly low. I don't know how to resolve the
apparently impossible combination of clear, stiff, non-roped, non-loaded
strings thin enough
Anyway, I don't care - I haven't even got a baroque lute;-)
Shame on you!
RT
--
http://polyhymnion.org/torban
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
When someone finds out out how to string the things I might think about it.
T(op) C(at)
- Original Message -
From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Tony Chalkley [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute Net
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2004 6:40 PM
Subject: Re: thoughts on low
So we are left with some very difficult problems. I'm glad that more
people
are now taking the debate seriously - who knows, we might end up with some
decent (and historically plausible) lute strings...
Best wishes,
Martin
P.S. But I'd settle for just decent.
Actually, I find the
Tony Chalkley wrote:
Just an idea that I wouldn't know how to put into practice - they couldn't
have roped but left a finer tail to go through the hole, could they? I'm
thinking of a make of guitar and bass strings where only the core lies on
the saddle and of course piano strings.
You
Stephan Olbertz wrote:
this thread led me to re-read Segerman's article on his
website at
http://www.nrinstruments.demon.co.uk/LuSt.html
Thanks for this. There is a lot of food for thought in that article.
He says:
It is possible to approach the original type of sound balance with
modern
27, 2004 9:44 AM
Subject: Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
Stephan Olbertz wrote:
this thread led me to re-read Segerman's article on his
website at
http://www.nrinstruments.demon.co.uk/LuSt.html
Thanks for this. There is a lot of food for thought in that article.
He says
list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2004 9:44 AM
Subject: Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
Stephan Olbertz wrote:
this thread led me to re-read Segerman's article on his
website at
http://www.nrinstruments.demon.co.uk/LuSt.html
Thanks
Damn it to hell Roman, this is getting annoying.
Not quite. Hooks and levers are NOT the same thing. I'm afraid you don't
know enough about hooked harps of the 18th century.
I know quite well that hooks and levers aren't the same thing, and I think I
said that we now call hooks blades. But
Must I make everything as detailed as a primer, or
can you just accept that I might know what I'm talking about?
Yes. Otherwise you get a messageful of inexactitudes and fallacies. It would
have been for your own good.
RT
To get on or off this list see list information at
PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2004 10:09 AM
Subject: Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
Must I make everything as detailed as a primer, or
can you just accept that I might know what I'm talking about?
Yes. Otherwise you get a messageful of inexactitudes and fallacies
Vance,
perishable nature of the objects of our search and the ambiguity of
existing
information.
And herein lies my confusion. I have a good friend (and college classmate)
who is retired from a career as an orchestral flautist and now has a
non-profit Baroque orchestra in Connecticutt,
what's the oldest known recording of a lute? ...or
any other cordophone instrument? anyone know?
- bill
=
and thus i made...a small vihuela from the shell of a creepy crawly... - Don
Gonzalo de Guerrero (1512), Historias de la Conquista del Mayab by Fra Joseph
of San Buenaventura. go
Dear Francesco (and all),
just a few further thoughts, sorry for answering lately.
Francesco wrote:
Perhaps they decided to change to thumb out for other technical
reasons. I guess it's simpler to play thumb out with many courses, due
to the much wider distance the thumb must reach, and
Dear Stephan and all,
At least with my hands it's in no way easier to play thumb-out
on low bass courses. If I want to keep the little finger on
the soundboard and away from the first course, the thumb
virtually is _in_ when lying on e.g. the 11th course.
Interestingly it only seems to
If you join any of the Historical Harp Societies- they would surely
provide
you with an explanatory booklet, but in a nut-shell a Baroque harp is a
instrument in use during the Baroque Era, i.e. a more or less chromatic
instrument with either two or three rows of strings, or a single row
I would think Michel Podolsky's, after the War, at the bad end of the
spectrum, and Walter Gerwig at he good.
RT
__
Roman M. Turovsky
http://polyhymnion.org/swv
what's the oldest known recording of a lute? ...or
any other cordophone instrument? anyone know?
- bill
PROTECTED]; Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2004 3:05 AM
Subject: Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
Vance,
perishable nature of the objects of our search and the ambiguity of
existing
information.
And herein lies my confusion. I have a good friend
Vance,
Aesthetics for the most part. I can't imagine a lute with a set of
Grovers
especially twenty-some-odd of them on one instrument. The issue of weight
would be a real and significant problem.
I concur, I am really more traditionalist than I sometimes sound. But I'm
thinking of looking
to admit that I
have lutes which respond much better when using that position.
Thomas
[EMAIL PROTECTED] am 22.11.2004 22:20:11
An:[EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Kopie:
Thema: Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
In einer eMail vom 22.11.2004 13:13:52 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
Dear Elias,
Gaultier-Portrait shows the little finger even behind the
bridge. 3 different positions, 3 different moments, 3
different painters, etc. How should a painter of our days
do a piano player's hands showing
here's an item to pique the interest of those with
uncompromising views on pinky placement, etc., etc.
in a book i confess to have read once called meetings
with remarkable men by george gurdjieff - which, as a
book, when divorced from the god'swill that
accompanied it, turned out to be an
I have been interested in this for a while. It seems
to me to be a valuable insight into historical lute
construction, i.e to convert a rennaissance lute to a
baroque lute rather than only replicate the final
product. Ed-I think you should now convert the 11c to
a bassrider 13! If I had an 11c
According to luthier-friend this type of sorry expediency is exactly what
was the cause of low survival rate of baroque lutes. This is not as bad as
cello-pins for lutes, but DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME. Earlier lutes just don't
have enough wood to hold 13 courses.
RT
__
Roman M. Turovsky
Obviously I would take it to my neighborhood expert
luthier of course silly:)
Sterling
--- Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
According to luthier-friend this type of sorry
expediency is exactly what
was the cause of low survival rate of baroque lutes.
This is not as bad as
cello-pins
He would never do this, if he were intelligent.
RT
Obviously I would take it to my neighborhood expert
luthier of course silly:)
Sterling
--- Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
According to luthier-friend this type of sorry
expediency is exactly what
was the cause of low survival
So you are saying that J.J. Edlinger and J.C. Hoffman
were not inteligent? That is what they spent most of
their time doing besides making violins.
Sterling
--- Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
He would never do this, if he were intelligent.
RT
Obviously I would take it to my
They were MOSTLY building from scratch, and from time to time putting in a
fake label, for self-evident reasons.
RT
__
Roman M. Turovsky
http://polyhymnion.org/swv
So you are saying that J.J. Edlinger and J.C. Hoffman
were not inteligent? That is what they spent most of
their time
You should read the latest journal of the LSA which
discusses this topic in depth. Surely we can agree
that many baroque lutes didn't begin life with 13
courses.
Sterling
--- Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
They were MOSTLY building from scratch, and from
time to time putting in a
fake
You should read the latest journal of the LSA which
discusses this topic in depth. Surely we can agree
that many baroque lutes didn't begin life with 13
courses.
Sterling
1. That's why so many of them fell apart.
2. Lundberg's opinions are considered dated by some.
3. Too many instruments
RT,
If you join any of the Historical Harp Societies- they would surely
provide
you with an explanatory booklet, but in a nit-shell a Baroque harp is a
instrument in use during the Baroque Era, i.e. a more or less chromatic
instrument with either two or three rows of strings, or single a row
Stephan,
I have over fifty years of playing guitar badly (never took up classical).
But I'm pretty good as a traditional folk guitarist - a finger picker, not a
strummer. Close to the bridge tightens the sound, makes it a bit brighter,
as long as the tension is adequate. But it will do little
Dear all,
it has been argumented that playing close to the bridge
produces better (brighter) basses. However, it occurs to me
that the extreme thumb-out positions we see on old paintings
result in darker basses and brighten the sound of the upper
register. If the aim had been to brighten the
Dear Stephan,
it has been argumented that playing close to the bridge
produces better (brighter) basses. However, it occurs to me
that the extreme thumb-out positions we see on old paintings
result in darker basses and brighten the sound of the upper
register. If the aim had been to
That is the question, Stephan.We just do not know how they valued the
sound.
ed
At 01:10 PM 11/22/2004 +0100, Stephan Olbertz wrote:
Dear all,
it has been argumented that playing close to the bridge
produces better (brighter) basses. However, it occurs to me
that the extreme thumb-out
breaking. Here is where the anomaly occurs, a lighter guage might seem to be
the solution, but the lighter the guage the less the tensile strength, so
the breaking pitch remains approximately the same. (Yes purists, I know
the tensile strength is a function of the material, not the guage -
Steve has given you some numbers on harp tensions, and I can't disagree. I
can only add my own thoughts (and calculations). I'm totally unfamiliar with
orchestral pedal harps - and am not sure how one defines a Baroque harp.
If you join any of the Historical Harp Societies- they would surely
wouldn't it be safe to assume that string quality
varied from region to region and style of play - close
to or far from the bridge, for example - would have
depended on many variables and possible
interpretations available to the performer at the
time?
constants vary.
- bill
--- Edward
constants vary.
- bill
And pigs may fly, and the centre does not hold.
David Cameron
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Right, but actually the possibilities are *not* endless. They are portrayed,
more or less, all in the same position. 8^)
Then what about the portraits of Mouton and Gaultier? They are not exactly
unknown lutenists and if I was a famous master I would have liked to be
portrayed more or less in a
bill kilpatrick wrote:
wouldn't it be safe to assume that string quality
varied from region to region and style of play - close
to or far from the bridge, for example - would have
depended on many variables and possible
interpretations available to the performer at the
time?
It must be
In einer eMail vom 22.11.2004 13:13:52 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt=
=20
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:=20
The question is, why didn't=20
they do the same?
=20
The problem is that even if we knew exactly how they played,=20
maybe we would be unhappy with the result.
It is very difficult for us to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] am 22.11.2004 16:59:02
An:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Kopie:
Thema: RE: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
Right, but actually the possibilities are *not* endless. They are
portrayed,
more or less, all in the same position. 8^)
Then what about the portraits of Mouton and Gaultier
I have not personally tried this approach, as :
1. It would cost a lot of money to buy an entire new set of strings
in low tension, and
2. I have avoided the time it would take to develop a new technique.
How about moving all the fretted strings over one position and the
basses 2 or three
Omigod,
Some excellent explorations of the subject of tension. But I wonder as to
the knowledge involved. It is a tautology that the sound is an interaction
between the soundboard, the body, and the strings. The lute, and all of its
family (including guitar and charango, cittern and oud) depend
tuning down has always sounded authentic to me -
especially when playing arabo-andalusian style, early
christian music.
in a similar thread on the charango.yahoo site someone
mentioned bob brosman's comment that a lower tuning is
wonderful for recording but no so good for playing
live.
- bill
Thanks for your insight, David. I know that Toy is a good friend to you,
and I am certain that you have observed his changes evolution in this
subject. I only know the principles of it, without being involved.
Years ago, I did tune my baroque lute down to 392, and I really liked it
that way
Dear lutenists,
this is an interesting discussion! I have been sometimes thinking
the opposite in theorbo stringing. The tension that for example
A. Lawrence-King uses in his baroque harps seems to be (actually
feels to be, I've tried to pluck his instruments sometimes)
quite a lot more than
Dear all,
this thread led me to re-read Segerman's article on his
website at
http://www.nrinstruments.demon.co.uk/LuSt.html
Apparently he is postulating low tension stringing and
close to the bridge playing for years.
However, lowering the pitch with nylon stringing to my
ears and fingers
Arto wrote:
So what kind of string tension is normal in baroque harps? Our harpists,
please tell us! :-)
Steve writes:
The tension of a baroque harp is indeed much higher than a lute or theorbo.
On a small *lightly* strung arpa doppia the tensions range 2.8 to 9.1 kilos
per string with a
Arto,
Steve has given you some numbers on harp tensions, and I can't disagree. I
can only add my own thoughts (and calculations). I'm totally unfamiliar with
orchestral pedal harps - and am not sure how one defines a Baroque harp. The
earlier harps, Medieval and Celtic, were normally wire strung
Edward Martin mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb:
usual practice at the time. If one tries to do this on a baroque lute
strung conventionally as we string them in our modern times, the results
are a harsh, brittle sound, because playing way back on the bridge, gives
us entirely too much
At 2:31 PM -0600 11/20/04, Edward Martin wrote:
These are good points, and good inquiries, Ed. The entire topic of
tension of baroque lute stringing is fascinating, and we really do
not have all the answers at this point time.
What also interests me are the implications for Renaissance lutes.
56 matches
Mail list logo
