Re: [Marxism] regarding Russian air strikes

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 10/1/15 10:54 AM, Ron Jacobs via Marxism wrote:


Why are we supposed to be bothered that CIA-trained mercenary "rebels" were
attacked?  How are these CIA-trained mercenaries that much different from
the contras or the so-called mujaheddin?


Ron speaks about the FSA as if it were "contras" when in fact the real 
counter-revolution is based in Damascus and is propped up by Iran, 
Hezbollah and the Kremlin. This is hard for "anti-imperialists" to 
since any armed forces that are on the white side  of the chessboard 
like the Russian military represent peace, national sovereignty, 
Enlightenment values, and tolerance even if Pussy Riot had to be put in 
jail to sustain those values.


Last night I was at a dinner to kick off the 2016 Socially Relevant Film 
Festival and found myself sitting next to a filmmaker who had obviously 
been reading Mike Whitney et al. When she told me that Israel was 
backing al-Qaeda in Syria, I asked her to substantiate that. She could not.


What is going on here? Brainwashing? No, I think it is something far 
more interesting. When people like her and Ron Jacobs were young, they 
became profoundly alienated from the USA because of the Vietnam War. 
This led inexorably toward an identification with any government or 
movement that was seen as the enemy of the USA, so much so that the same 
kind of "my country, right or wrong" mentality that typified the yahoos 
who wore American flag pins on their lapels became adopted by young 
radicals. Except that the country became Cuba, Venezuela, Iran, or 
Russia. Half right, I guess, but a miss is as good as a mile. Trying to 
persuade her or Ron Jacobs that Assad and Putin were no different than 
Pinochet or Suharto is virtually impossible because they have settled 
into a comfort zone that makes critical thinking impossible.


I suppose that I was fortunate enough (despite all the shitty baggage 
that went along with it) to have been educated in the Trotskyist 
movement. Joe Hansen published the Soviet dissidents in the 1960s and 
70s no matter that the NY Times took up their cause. If you want to play 
chess, play chess. But if you lack a class analysis, stick to checkers 
or maybe even marbles.

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Re: [Marxism] regarding Russian air strikes

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 10/1/15 12:05 PM, Joseph Catron via Marxism wrote:


And don''t get me started on the rebels. Even worse with the lies!

"The commander of the Liwa Suqour al-Jabal rebel group, which has received
training by the CIA, says a training camp in Idlib province was struck by
about 20 missiles in two separate sorties."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/01/russia-launches-fresh-airstrikes-on-syria-targets



Joseph evidently uses American support as a litmus test for whether a 
group is counter-revolutionary. On that basis, both Mao Zedong and Hi 
Chi Minh were counter-revolutionary for getting arms and training from 
the OSS during WWII.


This kind of reductionist thinking is very seductive for non-Marxist 
radicals like Joseph Catron.


If you are interested in finding out exactly what the FSA is up to in 
Syria, you should look at this:


https://news.vice.com/video/the-battle-for-syrias-south-full-length

Or even better:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuiFGECCmRw
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Re: [Marxism] regarding Russian air strikes

[Tristan Sloughter via Marxism]

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> But given your current outspoken support for al-Qaeda

How quick the "anti-imperalists" are to take part in the US's strategy
of painting ones enemies with the "al-Qaeda" brush. Apparently taking
time to understand why people are fighting under certain factions, like
al Nusra, and how both the fighters, local leadership and foreign
leadership actually relate to al-Qaeda is only to be done for those the
West is fighting. 

But hey, isn't it easier to just say, 'The fighters on the ground in
areas besieged by the regime and with little to no military or financial
backing are simply radical Islamic terrorists who must be defeated to
save the secular government of Assad!' Or as Socialist Unity UK put it,
"The barbarians are at the gates and Russia alone is heeding the call to
intervene in order to save not just the Syrian government or Syria, but
civilisation itself."
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Re: [Marxism] regarding Russian air strikes

[Jeff via Marxism]

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On 2015-10-01 16:54, Ron Jacobs via Marxism wrote:


Why are we supposed to be bothered that CIA-trained mercenary "rebels" 
were

attacked?


Well the easy answer is that almost surely none of those attacked were 
either mercenaries or trained by the CIA. But more generally I would 
surely be "bothered" by any bombing from the air, a form of warfare 
which disproportionally kills the civilian population. And unlike the 
intervention of Hezbollah in Syria, who actually lay their lives down 
(foolishly) in support of the murderer al-Assad, the Russians are ONLY 
engaged in air strikes and explicitly not providing ground troops (which 
I believe).


So the more pertinent question is why anyone would make a HERO of the 
MURDERER Assad? Well in fact I just read a not-bad piece on the 
blindness that allows people to see the worst murderers as "heros." It's 
available here:


http://torturemag.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Torture-V4-N1_column_arrow_on_the_doorpost.pdf

I refer you to the article starting on the second page entitled "The 
Murderer as Hero" by Ron Jacobs. Enjoy!


- Jeff





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Re: [Marxism] regarding Russian air strikes

[Joseph Catron via Marxism]

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On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 12:22 PM, Louis Proyect  wrote:

Joseph evidently uses American support as a litmus test for whether a group
> is counter-revolutionary.


No, I evidently (the word has a meaning you know) responded to an erroneous
factual statement.

But given your current outspoken support for al-Qaeda, I have no idea what
you might consider "revolutionary":

https://twitter.com/LouisProyect1/status/647763922347524098
https://twitter.com/LouisProyect1/status/647764060155572224

In fact, I'm almost certainly happier without knowing. So there's really no
need to explain it.

-- 
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Re: [Marxism] regarding Russian air strikes

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 10/1/15 12:28 PM, Joseph Catron wrote:

On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 12:22 PM, Louis Proyect > wrote:

Joseph evidently uses American support as a litmus test for whether
a group is counter-revolutionary.


No, I evidently (the word has a meaning you know) responded to an
erroneous factual statement.

But given your current outspoken support for al-Qaeda, I have no idea
what you might consider "revolutionary":

https://twitter.com/LouisProyect1/status/647763922347524098
https://twitter.com/LouisProyect1/status/647764060155572224

In fact, I'm almost certainly happier without knowing. So there's really
no need to explain it.


I use the word "revolutionary" in Marxist terms whatever your 
predilection. I don't think there is much difference ideologically 
between Hamas and the al-Nusra front so I would be just as happy seeing 
Hamas using MANPAD's to bring down an IDF F-16 as I would be seeing 
al-Nusra bring down a MIG. I understand that you have one yardstick for 
an Islamist Hamas and another for al-Nusra but that is your problem, not 
mine.




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Re: [Marxism] regarding Russian air strikes

[Joseph Catron via Marxism]

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On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 11:22 AM, Jeff via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

Well the easy answer is that almost surely none of those attacked were
> either mercenaries or trained by the CIA.


Damnable US officials, with their incessant lies!

"One of the airstrikes hit an area primarily held by rebels backed by the
Central Intelligence Agency and allied spy services, U.S. officials said,
catapulting the Syrian crisis to a new level of danger and uncertainty."

http://on.wsj.com/1jAuHdp

"At least one and possibly more Syrian opposition groups that have been
secretly armed and trained by the C.I.A. were among the rebel groups
targeted by the Russian airstrikes, a senior United States official said."

http://nyti.ms/1QN1tlP

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Re: [Marxism] regarding Russian air strikes

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 10/1/15 11:44 AM, Ron Jacobs wrote:

There is no revolution in Syria--that's all, not in Assad's forces or in
the "rebel" forces.



Fine.

But the FSA is not committing war crimes on a massive scale. It came 
into existence to protect civilian populations from being murdered and 
largely performs the same function today as well as fighting to extend 
its influence and control over Baathist-held territory.


If you can't distinguish between lightly armed men trying to defend 
Sunni neighborhoods in Idlib and MIG's firing missiles into apartment 
buildings, you need help.

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Re: [Marxism] regarding Russian air strikes

[Ron Jacobs via Marxism]

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this is just absurd, Clay.  For one thing, they were Marxist.  For another
thing, they weren't being supported by the OSS as soon as their use to
Washington was done and, for another thing, they were fighting the US
military and its puppet regime in Saigon, not trying to set one up.

On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 2:23 PM, Clay Claiborne  wrote:

> Ron Jacobs on Ho Chi Minh's Viet Minh "
>
>> Why are we supposed to be bothered that OSS-trained mercenary "rebels"
>> were
>> attacked?  How are these OSS-trained mercenaries that much different from
>> the contras or the so-called mujaheddin?
>
>
> Clay Claiborne, Director
> Vietnam: American Holocaust 
> Linux Beach Productions
> Venice, CA 90291
> (310) 581-1536
>
> Read my blogs at the Linux Beach 
> 
>
> On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 7:54 AM, Ron Jacobs via Marxism <
> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
>
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>>
>> Why are we supposed to be bothered that CIA-trained mercenary "rebels"
>> were
>> attacked?  How are these CIA-trained mercenaries that much different from
>> the contras or the so-called mujaheddin?
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Re: [Marxism] regarding Russian air strikes

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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Ron Jacobs on Ho Chi Minh's Viet Minh "

> Why are we supposed to be bothered that OSS-trained mercenary "rebels" were
> attacked?  How are these OSS-trained mercenaries that much different from
> the contras or the so-called mujaheddin?


Clay Claiborne, Director
Vietnam: American Holocaust 
Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

Read my blogs at the Linux Beach 


On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 7:54 AM, Ron Jacobs via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
> Why are we supposed to be bothered that CIA-trained mercenary "rebels" were
> attacked?  How are these CIA-trained mercenaries that much different from
> the contras or the so-called mujaheddin?
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Re: [Marxism] regarding Russian air strikes

[Ron Jacobs via Marxism]

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i am not arguing about the intentions of the rebels Gopal wrote about in
his book. (his book on Afghanistan is good--i reviewed it also).  We should
be talking about the current situation, which is partially the result of
the US decision to not support the progressive rebels of Gopal's article,
but the socially reactionary ones.

Look, let's cut the baloney.
>
> The world is divided into two blocs of capitalist nations--one
> headquartered in Washington and the other in Moscow. If you are in a
> country that is part of the Moscow bloc, where the hell are you supposed to
> get weapons? From Venezuela? Cuba? What are the chances that someone in
> Homs could talk a Chavista colonel into shipping them some MANPAD's?
>
> It is only natural that you would turn to the USA or one of the states
> that are allied with it such as Turkey, Saudi Arabia or Qatar (even though
> they are also acting on their own Sunni sectarian motives). Did Ron expect
> them to rely totally on weapons they confiscated from Baathist munitions
> storehouses they overran?
>
> In 1914 M.N. Roy, the founder of the Mexican Communist Party and later the
> Communist Party of India, approached the German imperialists for arms.
> Later on, an Indian nationalist named Subhas Chandra Bose lined up support
> from Adolph Hitler against the British. Unlike Roy, Bose was not a
> socialist but his cause was just.
>
> Finally, there is every evidence that the Syrian rebels had the intention
> of building grass roots democracy every bit as legitimate as the Kurds in
> Rojave. It was absolutely disgusting that at the time it was moving in this
> direction, "anti-imperialists" had talked themselves into believing that
> they were no different than Jonah Savimbi or Adolfo Calero.
>
> The best article describing this process was written by Anand Gopal for
> Harpers in August 2013. I reviewed his excellent book on Afghanistan for CP
> a while back.
>
> I am pretty sure that his article is not behind a paywall (
> http://harpers.org/archive/2012/08/welcome-to-free-syria/) but here is
> the takeaway:
>
> Matar brought me to a mosque that sits next to one of the mass graves.
> Inside, there were heaps of clothes, boxes of Turkish biscuits, and crates
> of bottled water. An old bald man with a walrus mustache studied a ledger
> with intensity while a group of old men around him argued about how much
> charity they could demand from Taftanaz’s rich to rebuild the town. This
> was the public-affairs committee, one of the village’s revolutionary
> councils. The mustached man slammed his hands on the floor and shouted,
> “This is a revolution of the poor! The rich will have to accept that.” He
> turned to me and explained, “We’ve gone to every house in town and
> determined what they need”—he pointed at the ledger—“and compared it with
> what donations come in. Everything gets recorded and can be seen by the
> public.”
>
> All around Taftanaz, amid the destruction, rebel councils like this were
> meeting—twenty-seven in all, and each of them had elected a delegate to sit
> on the citywide council. They were a sign of a deeper transformation that
> the revolution had wrought in Syria: Bashar al-Assad once subdued small
> towns like these with an impressive apparatus of secret police, party
> hacks, and yes-men; now such control was impossible without an occupation.
> The Syrian army, however, lacked the numbers to control the hinterlands—it
> entered, fought, and moved on to the next target. There could be no return
> to the status quo, it seemed, even if the way forward was unclear.
>
> In the neighboring town of Binnish, I visited the farmers’ council, a body
> of about a thousand members that set grain prices and adjudicated land
> disputes. Its leader, an old man I’ll call Abdul Hakim, explained to me
> that before the revolution, farmers were forced to sell grain to the
> government at a price that barely covered the cost of production. Following
> the uprising, the farmers tried to sell directly to the town at almost
> double the former rates. But locals balked and complained to the citywide
> council, which then mandated a return to the old prices—which has the
> farmers disgruntled, but Hakim acknowledged that in this revolution, “we
> have to give to each as he needs.”
>
> It was a phrase I heard many times, even from landowners and merchants who
> might otherwise bristle at the revolution’s egalitarian rhetoric—they
> cannot ignore that many on the front lines come from society’s bottom
> rungs. At one point in March, the citywide council enforced price controls
> on rice and heating oil, undoing, locally, the most unpopular economic
> reforms 

Re: [Marxism] regarding Russian air strikes

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 10/1/15 2:34 PM, Ron Jacobs via Marxism wrote:

this is just absurd, Clay.  For one thing, they were Marxist.  For another
thing, they weren't being supported by the OSS as soon as their use to
Washington was done and, for another thing, they were fighting the US
military and its puppet regime in Saigon, not trying to set one up.


Look, let's cut the baloney.

The world is divided into two blocs of capitalist nations--one 
headquartered in Washington and the other in Moscow. If you are in a 
country that is part of the Moscow bloc, where the hell are you supposed 
to get weapons? From Venezuela? Cuba? What are the chances that someone 
in Homs could talk a Chavista colonel into shipping them some MANPAD's?


It is only natural that you would turn to the USA or one of the states 
that are allied with it such as Turkey, Saudi Arabia or Qatar (even 
though they are also acting on their own Sunni sectarian motives). Did 
Ron expect them to rely totally on weapons they confiscated from 
Baathist munitions storehouses they overran?


In 1914 M.N. Roy, the founder of the Mexican Communist Party and later 
the Communist Party of India, approached the German imperialists for 
arms. Later on, an Indian nationalist named Subhas Chandra Bose lined up 
support from Adolph Hitler against the British. Unlike Roy, Bose was not 
a socialist but his cause was just.


Finally, there is every evidence that the Syrian rebels had the 
intention of building grass roots democracy every bit as legitimate as 
the Kurds in Rojave. It was absolutely disgusting that at the time it 
was moving in this direction, "anti-imperialists" had talked themselves 
into believing that they were no different than Jonah Savimbi or Adolfo 
Calero.


The best article describing this process was written by Anand Gopal for 
Harpers in August 2013. I reviewed his excellent book on Afghanistan for 
CP a while back.


I am pretty sure that his article is not behind a paywall 
(http://harpers.org/archive/2012/08/welcome-to-free-syria/) but here is 
the takeaway:


Matar brought me to a mosque that sits next to one of the mass graves. 
Inside, there were heaps of clothes, boxes of Turkish biscuits, and 
crates of bottled water. An old bald man with a walrus mustache studied 
a ledger with intensity while a group of old men around him argued about 
how much charity they could demand from Taftanaz’s rich to rebuild the 
town. This was the public-affairs committee, one of the village’s 
revolutionary councils. The mustached man slammed his hands on the floor 
and shouted, “This is a revolution of the poor! The rich will have to 
accept that.” He turned to me and explained, “We’ve gone to every house 
in town and determined what they need”—he pointed at the ledger—“and 
compared it with what donations come in. Everything gets recorded and 
can be seen by the public.”


All around Taftanaz, amid the destruction, rebel councils like this were 
meeting—twenty-seven in all, and each of them had elected a delegate to 
sit on the citywide council. They were a sign of a deeper transformation 
that the revolution had wrought in Syria: Bashar al-Assad once subdued 
small towns like these with an impressive apparatus of secret police, 
party hacks, and yes-men; now such control was impossible without an 
occupation. The Syrian army, however, lacked the numbers to control the 
hinterlands—it entered, fought, and moved on to the next target. There 
could be no return to the status quo, it seemed, even if the way forward 
was unclear.


In the neighboring town of Binnish, I visited the farmers’ council, a 
body of about a thousand members that set grain prices and adjudicated 
land disputes. Its leader, an old man I’ll call Abdul Hakim, explained 
to me that before the revolution, farmers were forced to sell grain to 
the government at a price that barely covered the cost of production. 
Following the uprising, the farmers tried to sell directly to the town 
at almost double the former rates. But locals balked and complained to 
the citywide council, which then mandated a return to the old 
prices—which has the farmers disgruntled, but Hakim acknowledged that in 
this revolution, “we have to give to each as he needs.”


It was a phrase I heard many times, even from landowners and merchants 
who might otherwise bristle at the revolution’s egalitarian 
rhetoric—they cannot ignore that many on the front lines come from 
society’s bottom rungs. At one point in March, the citywide council 
enforced price controls on rice and heating oil, undoing, locally, the 
most unpopular economic reforms of the previous decade.


“We have to take from the rich in our 

Re: [Marxism] regarding Russian air strikes

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 10/1/15 3:23 PM, Ron Jacobs wrote:

We should be talking about the current situation, which is partially the
result of the US decision to not support the progressive rebels of
Gopal's article, but the socially reactionary ones.


Syria is a disaster. Bashar al-Assad sought to turn it into a sectarian 
battleground and he largely succeeded. In a way, he developed a strategy 
similar to the British and American's "emptying the ponds" so the fish 
cannot swim. By making nearly all of Syria a living hell except the 
Damascus enclave that is reminiscent of the "Green Zone" in occupied 
Baghdad. he has gained time and leverage over the rebels but in the long 
run he will be defeated. And then there will be something like Libya.


And as far as Libya is concerned, if you argue that American and Russian 
intervention is necessary to prevent it from becoming a "disaster" like 
Libya, you are out of your mind. Syria should only be blessed to look 
like post-Gaddafi Libya.

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Re: [Marxism] regarding Russian air strikes

[Ron Jacobs via Marxism]

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we've been told by US media that it was only against ISof course, the
US press has its own agenda...

On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 4:11 PM, Ken Hiebert  wrote:

> Ron Jacobs said:
>
> Why are we supposed to be bothered that CIA-trained mercenary "rebels" were
> attacked?  How are these CIA-trained mercenaries that much different from
> the contras or the so-called mujaheddin?
>
>
> Ken Hiebert replies:
> I think you are conceding that Russian planes have attacked non-ISIS
> targets.
> This leads me to ask how Russia has presented their presence in Syria.
> Have they presented it as a fight against ISIS?  Or have they presented it
> as a fight against all opponents of the Syrian government?
>
>
>
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