[Marxism] Democratically-chosen government?

[Ken Hiebert via Marxism]

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I have had people say to me that it is hopeless to try and convince this or 
that person that I am arguing with.
In reply I say that I am not necessarily trying to convince that person.  
Rather I am hoping that someone else is reading my messages.
That's why I try to avoid expressions of anger or disdain.  I believe such 
messages make it harder for people to read and accept what I have to say.

I don't want to punish anyone for reading a message of mine.

If you must send angry messages, then you must.  But if you visualize someone 
coming onto the list just at the moment you are writing, someone who is new to 
the debate, you may find it easier to restrain yourself.

ken h
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Re: [Marxism] Democratically-chosen government?

[Andrew Pollack via Marxism]

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I have to agree with Richard (even though it's usually Louis who's telling
me to behave :)
On the UFPJ list, the standard reply of stalinoids to ANYTHING and
EVERYTHING with which they disagree is "how much did the CIA pay you to say
that?"
We can do better.

On Sat, Jan 7, 2017 at 1:08 PM, Richard Taylor via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
> Dear Louis Proyect,
>
> Let me begin by writing that I am a long time subscriber to your website.
> I have considerable respect for your work, your rigor, and your
> conviction.  On the matter of Syria, you have been a beacon of light from
> the onset.
>
> I do have one suggestion: tone down the personal vituperation that creeps
> into your postings.  For example, in your posting below, you conclude by
> writing, "I hope you are getting paid well enough by the Kremlin to assuage
> your conscience.”  This is completely gratuitous.  Let your robust argument
> do the talking.  By adding the last sentence, you deflect attention from
> your argument, and by the inclusion of the last sentence, you needlessly
> insinuate an ad hominem attack that no doubt surely inclines Mr. Hirthler
> to be even less disposed to consider your case.  However tempting it is to
> include ad hominem attacks, they have to be subordinated to the higher task
> of persuasion.
>
> Dick Taylor
> > On Jan 7, 2017, at 11:51 AM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
> >
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> >
> > Jason Hirthler,
> >
> > In your Counterpunch article, you write about the ethnic cleansing of
> East Aleppo:
> >
> > "What else do you call it when a democratically-chosen government clears
> a city of an invading army?"
> >
> > Who in the fuck are you kidding?
> >
> > The current government in Syria owes its existence to a military coup
> that took place in 1970. After Hafez al-Assad died, his son Bashar became
> president with votes of 99.7% and 97.6% support in the 2000 and 2007
> elections, the sort of results that would turn Mayor Daley green with envy.
> Except they weren't actually elections. They were referenda on whether you
> support the only candidate running. You might be aware that Syria is a
> one-party state. If you are not aware of that fact, I might excuse you for
> being in over your head writing about Syria. If you are aware of that fact
> and despite that insist on writing such bilge, I hope you are getting paid
> well enough by the Kremlin to assuage your conscience.
> > _
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Re: [Marxism] Democratically-chosen government?

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 1/7/17 1:08 PM, Richard Taylor wrote:

Dear Louis Proyect,

Let me begin by writing that I am a long time subscriber to your
website.  I have considerable respect for your work, your rigor, and
your conviction.  On the matter of Syria, you have been a beacon of
light from the onset.

I do have one suggestion: tone down the personal vituperation that
creeps into your postings.  For example, in your posting below, you
conclude by writing, "I hope you are getting paid well enough by the
Kremlin to assuage your conscience.”  This is completely gratuitous.
Let your robust argument do the talking.  By adding the last
sentence, you deflect attention from your argument, and by the
inclusion of the last sentence, you needlessly insinuate an ad
hominem attack that no doubt surely inclines Mr. Hirthler to be even
less disposed to consider your case.  However tempting it is to
include ad hominem attacks, they have to be subordinated to the
higher task of persuasion.

Dick Taylor



Actually when I write a public flame like that, it is not with the 
purpose of changing the recipient's mind. It is only designed to keep my 
head from exploding.


Over the past 6 years, however, I have had *many* private exchanges with 
an entirely different tone and that has often changed peoples' minds. 
Truth be told, the main thing working against the Hirthler POV is just 
the sheer bestiality of the Syrian/Russian/Iranian blitzkrieg.

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Re: [Marxism] Democratically-chosen government?

[Richard Taylor via Marxism]

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Dear Louis Proyect,

Let me begin by writing that I am a long time subscriber to your website.  I 
have considerable respect for your work, your rigor, and your conviction.  On 
the matter of Syria, you have been a beacon of light from the onset.

I do have one suggestion: tone down the personal vituperation that creeps into 
your postings.  For example, in your posting below, you conclude by writing, "I 
hope you are getting paid well enough by the Kremlin to assuage your 
conscience.”  This is completely gratuitous.  Let your robust argument do the 
talking.  By adding the last sentence, you deflect attention from your 
argument, and by the inclusion of the last sentence, you needlessly insinuate 
an ad hominem attack that no doubt surely inclines Mr. Hirthler to be even less 
disposed to consider your case.  However tempting it is to include ad hominem 
attacks, they have to be subordinated to the higher task of persuasion. 

Dick Taylor
> On Jan 7, 2017, at 11:51 AM, Louis Proyect via Marxism 
>  wrote:
> 
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> 
> Jason Hirthler,
> 
> In your Counterpunch article, you write about the ethnic cleansing of East 
> Aleppo:
> 
> "What else do you call it when a democratically-chosen government clears a 
> city of an invading army?"
> 
> Who in the fuck are you kidding?
> 
> The current government in Syria owes its existence to a military coup that 
> took place in 1970. After Hafez al-Assad died, his son Bashar became 
> president with votes of 99.7% and 97.6% support in the 2000 and 2007 
> elections, the sort of results that would turn Mayor Daley green with envy. 
> Except they weren't actually elections. They were referenda on whether you 
> support the only candidate running. You might be aware that Syria is a 
> one-party state. If you are not aware of that fact, I might excuse you for 
> being in over your head writing about Syria. If you are aware of that fact 
> and despite that insist on writing such bilge, I hope you are getting paid 
> well enough by the Kremlin to assuage your conscience.
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[Marxism] Democratically-chosen government?

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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Jason Hirthler,

In your Counterpunch article, you write about the ethnic cleansing of 
East Aleppo:


"What else do you call it when a democratically-chosen government clears 
a city of an invading army?"


Who in the fuck are you kidding?

The current government in Syria owes its existence to a military coup 
that took place in 1970. After Hafez al-Assad died, his son Bashar 
became president with votes of 99.7% and 97.6% support in the 2000 and 
2007 elections, the sort of results that would turn Mayor Daley green 
with envy. Except they weren't actually elections. They were referenda 
on whether you support the only candidate running. You might be aware 
that Syria is a one-party state. If you are not aware of that fact, I 
might excuse you for being in over your head writing about Syria. If you 
are aware of that fact and despite that insist on writing such bilge, I 
hope you are getting paid well enough by the Kremlin to assuage your 
conscience.

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