Re: [Marxism] "Ground rent" thesis at the Left forum

[Fred Murphy via Marxism]

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OK I get it, Fred Fuentes. D'oh.

On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 5:45 PM, Fred Murphy  wrote:

> I agree with Patrick's quote, but I don't recall saying it :)
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 5:26 PM, Patrick Bond via Marxism <
> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
>
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>>
>> On 2017/06/09 12:05 AM, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote:
>>
>>> ...I am for all attempts in Latin America to take control of country's
>>> resources and use it for the public good whether it was copper in Allende's
>>> Chile, oil in Venezuela, gas in Bolivia, etc. I thought that Federico
>>> Fuentes and the other Socialist Alliance comrades overprojected what was
>>> possible in Venezuela but I think he was right on this:
>>> http://climateandcapitalism.com/2014/05/19/dangerous-myths-a
>>> nti-extractivism/
>>>
>>
>> As Fred points out,
>>
>>Even some of the keenest critics of extractivism in Latin America...
>>acknowledge the need to differentiate between what they term
>>“predatory”, “sensible” and “indispensable” extractivism. It is also
>>true that most movements against specific extractive projects do not
>>propose ending all extractive industries and that within local
>>communities involved in such campaigns a variety of views exist.
>>
>>
>> Each case needs to be considered separately, but the overall net negative
>> wealth effect once GDP is properly corrected, suggests more caution is
>> needed.
>>
>> The other two factors that are more acute now than in 2014, are the
>> commodity price crash (especially in 2015) which in some cases led to
>> declining Western or BRICS corporate exploitation (especially of greenfield
>> projects) but in others led to more intense exploitation as shareholders
>> demanded profits based on high volumes of extraction rather than on the
>> high prices of prior years; and the imperative of climate change to leave
>> fossil fuels underground.
>>
>>
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Re: [Marxism] "Ground rent" thesis at the Left forum

[Fred Murphy via Marxism]

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I agree with Patrick's quote, but I don't recall saying it :)


On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 5:26 PM, Patrick Bond via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
> On 2017/06/09 12:05 AM, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote:
>
>> ...I am for all attempts in Latin America to take control of country's
>> resources and use it for the public good whether it was copper in Allende's
>> Chile, oil in Venezuela, gas in Bolivia, etc. I thought that Federico
>> Fuentes and the other Socialist Alliance comrades overprojected what was
>> possible in Venezuela but I think he was right on this:
>> http://climateandcapitalism.com/2014/05/19/dangerous-myths-
>> anti-extractivism/
>>
>
> As Fred points out,
>
>Even some of the keenest critics of extractivism in Latin America...
>acknowledge the need to differentiate between what they term
>“predatory”, “sensible” and “indispensable” extractivism. It is also
>true that most movements against specific extractive projects do not
>propose ending all extractive industries and that within local
>communities involved in such campaigns a variety of views exist.
>
>
> Each case needs to be considered separately, but the overall net negative
> wealth effect once GDP is properly corrected, suggests more caution is
> needed.
>
> The other two factors that are more acute now than in 2014, are the
> commodity price crash (especially in 2015) which in some cases led to
> declining Western or BRICS corporate exploitation (especially of greenfield
> projects) but in others led to more intense exploitation as shareholders
> demanded profits based on high volumes of extraction rather than on the
> high prices of prior years; and the imperative of climate change to leave
> fossil fuels underground.
>
>
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Re: [Marxism] "Ground rent" thesis at the Left forum

[Patrick Bond via Marxism]

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On 2017/06/09 12:05 AM, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote:
...I am for all attempts in Latin America to take control of country's 
resources and use it for the public good whether it was copper in 
Allende's Chile, oil in Venezuela, gas in Bolivia, etc. I thought that 
Federico Fuentes and the other Socialist Alliance comrades 
overprojected what was possible in Venezuela but I think he was right 
on this:
http://climateandcapitalism.com/2014/05/19/dangerous-myths-anti-extractivism/ 



As Fred points out,

   Even some of the keenest critics of extractivism in Latin America...
   acknowledge the need to differentiate between what they term
   “predatory”, “sensible” and “indispensable” extractivism. It is also
   true that most movements against specific extractive projects do not
   propose ending all extractive industries and that within local
   communities involved in such campaigns a variety of views exist.


Each case needs to be considered separately, but the overall net 
negative wealth effect once GDP is properly corrected, suggests more 
caution is needed.


The other two factors that are more acute now than in 2014, are the 
commodity price crash (especially in 2015) which in some cases led to 
declining Western or BRICS corporate exploitation (especially of 
greenfield projects) but in others led to more intense exploitation as 
shareholders demanded profits based on high volumes of extraction rather 
than on the high prices of prior years; and the imperative of climate 
change to leave fossil fuels underground.


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Re: [Marxism] "Ground rent" thesis at the Left forum

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 6/8/17 4:28 PM, Fred Murphy via Marxism wrote:

I keep coming back to Richard Smith's "Six Theses..." as an uncompromising
ecosocialist framework for these discussions. It is long past time for
socialists to forgo and critique "productionist," "Promethean," or
"accelerationist" approaches to overcoming the planetary crisis.


I never thought that Venezuela would "go socialist". I was skeptical of 
the idea that Chavez would "follow the Cuban road" as the Jack Barnes 
cult might have put it. I heard them condemn the Nicaraguans for that 
failure in the late 80s and tend to discount a lot of the ISO junk in 
the same way today.


I am for all attempts in Latin America to take control of country's 
resources and use it for the public good whether it was copper in 
Allende's Chile, oil in Venezuela, gas in Bolivia, etc. I thought that 
Federico Fuentes and the other Socialist Alliance comrades overprojected 
what was possible in Venezuela but I think he was right on this:


http://climateandcapitalism.com/2014/05/19/dangerous-myths-anti-extractivism/
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Re: [Marxism] "Ground rent" thesis at the Left forum

[DW via Marxism]

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Well..thank you Fred for posting this. It lays out a vision, at least, to
study and pick apart. I read what you posted and will read, what I assume,
to be the full set of "Six Theses" from the link you provided. I hope there
is a vision of what a 'sustainable' economy is. This is the weakest point
of the so-called "anti-productivist" position at least from a Marxist
perspective that focus, and indeed does focus, on "freeing the productive
forces". I've never seen anyone ever square these two seemingly mutually
exclusive concepts. Not Bellemy, not the eco-socialists.

David
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Re: [Marxism] "Ground rent" thesis at the Left forum

[Fred Murphy via Marxism]

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I keep coming back to Richard Smith's "Six Theses..." as an uncompromising
ecosocialist framework for these discussions. It is long past time for
socialists to forgo and critique "productionist," "Promethean," or
"accelerationist" approaches to overcoming the planetary crisis.

http://thenextsystem.org/six-theses-on-saving-the-planet/

Thesis 2 (for example) - "We would have to 'contract and converge'
production around a globally sustainable and hopefully happy average that
can provide a dignified living standard for all the world’s peoples. To
effect such a balance, we would have to slam the brakes on out-of-control
growth in the Global North. We would need to retrench or shut down
unnecessary, resource-hogging, wasteful, polluting industries like fossil
fuels, autos, aircraft and airlines, shipping, chemicals, bottled water,
processed foods, pharmaceuticals, and so on. We would have to discontinue
harmful processes like industrial agriculture, fishing, and logging. We
would have to close down many services–the banking industry, Wall Street,
the credit card, retail, public relations, and advertising 'industries' —
built to underwrite and promote overconsumption. We would have to abolish
the military-surveillance-police state industrial complex, and all its
manufacturers, as this is just a total waste that’s only purpose is global
domination, state terrorism, destruction abroad, and repression at home. We
can’t build decent societies anywhere when so much of social surplus is
squandered on such waste.

"At the same time, we would be obliged to redirect considerable resources
to ramping up sustainable development in the Global South. We, in the
North, have a responsibility to help the South build basic infrastructure,
electrification, sanitation systems, public schools, health care, and so
on. We would help their citizens achieve a comfortable material standard of
living without repeating all the disastrous wastes of capitalist
consumerism in the North. After all, we owe them a huge debt: much of the
poverty of the South is the result of decades and centuries of the
industrialized North looting their resources. If we just stop this, the
South can use its natural resource wealth for its own sustainable
development. ..."
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Re: [Marxism] "Ground rent" thesis at the Left forum

[DW via Marxism]

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Patrick,
thank you for replying. I'm curious, especially because you are from a
major "extractivist" nation, S. Africa, what the alternatives are? For any
transformation, energy specifically, but technological/industry more
generally, requires some forms of pulling minerals out of the grown. This
is true for solar cell technology as it is for electrical vehicles or mass
transportation. I've never read a serious alternative to this except Green
de-development (and thus anti-Marxist) perspectives on this. Are there any
sources you can refer me to that deals with this issue?

On the issue of Venezuela...I raised this issue of their tar-sands
development here once, and other places, years ago when Chavez had
announced an expansion of investment in the Orinco Oil belt. I know a young
organizer who spent 6 months there back in 2010 or so. He said it was an
insane ecological disaster...extracting oil from the Venezuela's tar sands
(the largest in the world and what Chavez and PDVSA were claiming makes
Venezuela the owner of the largest oil reserves in the world) is
particularly bad, far worse than it is in Alberta, because of it's tropical
and semi-tropical location. Of course I defend the right the government to
develop this oil but always wondered if in the long run...it's a disaster
for the country and the planet if it all gets developed.

Thinking out loudly,

David
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Re: [Marxism] "Ground rent" thesis at the Left forum

[Patrick Bond via Marxism]

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On 2017/06/08 04:07 AM, DW via Marxism wrote:

... what people were
standing online for in truly massive numbers: toilet paper, soap, food,
clothing, medicine, etc. ...
At the end of the day...how could what is happening in Venezuela today
*not* happen??? Anyone?


Today I happen to be in Beirut with eco-social (and a few eco-socialist) 
activists who are fighting mega-project maldevelopment, fossil fuels, 
pipelines and all sorts of environmental injustices - our network is 
connected through https://ejatlas.org/


What often emerges from these local battles is a fairly clear choice for 
a state: investment in extractive-oriented infrastructure with vast 
subsidies that typically benefit multinational corporations, displace 
local residents and wreck the eco-system on the one hand, or on the 
other, shift state resources towards meeting basic needs, including 
infrastructural backlogs in water and sanitation, household electricity, 
clinics and schools.


Finding the proper balance is vital, including nationalisation of 
commodity production and processing, for the sake of planning, retention 
of value and leaving resources underground when necessary, such as 
fossil fuels. (If you want one of the worst cases, I can tell you loads 
about South African ruling class choices along these lines.)


On the basis of a couple of visits to Caracas (2007-08) and discussions 
with people like Michael Lebowitz, Marta Harnecker and their allies 
(including a one-time planning minister) at the Centro Internacional 
Miranda, I was quite convinced of Chavez' desire to do the latter. 
Amazing radical hospitality was on display at CIM in those days, 
especially with Marta and Michael interpreting the complex shifts in 
power within the revolution.


However, there is a body of work by Edgardo Lander and his "Beyond 
Development" allies at the Rosa Luxemburg Foundation Quito office that 
suggests far too much emphasis was placed on extractivism, with all that 
that entails in terms of a political resource curse eating away at 
Chavez' legacy.


Edgardo was offering a comradely critique of this self-destructive 
extractivism well before the 2008 and 2015 oil price crashes, and I hope 
more comrades become familiar with his approach. At RealNews, Paul Jay 
did a fine 9-part interview with Edgardo: 
http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content=view=767=74=11723




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Re: [Marxism] "Ground rent" thesis at the Left forum

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 6/7/17 9:07 PM, DW via Marxism wrote:

rather what people were
standing online for in truly massive numbers: toilet paper, soap, food,
clothing, medicine, etc.


The problem is that for the ground rent theorists, going back to the 
batty Juan Inigo who got the ball rolling on this, investment was geared 
to capital accumulation, not the necessities of life. They saw Venezuela 
as a failure in terms of its inability to develop the economy along the 
lines of South Korea, for example, not to make it easier to wipe your ass.


Just read the guy I cited on this (that capital accumulation is part of 
the URL should tip you off):


https://www.academia.edu/16485735/OIL_RENT_APPROPRIATION_CAPITAL_ACCUMULATION_AND_SOCIAL_EXPENDITURE_IN_VENEZUELA_DURING_CHAVISM
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Re: [Marxism] "Ground rent" thesis at the Left forum

[DW via Marxism]

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Lou, I think what Anthony is talking about in terms of 'self-reliance' is
not medical equipment or heavy machinery (though it may, one can't get more
'heavy industry' than the petroleum industry) but rather what people were
standing online for in truly massive numbers: toilet paper, soap, food,
clothing, medicine, etc. This is not unreasonable and precisely because
they didn't want to end up making Cuba's mistake (10 Million Tons of Sugar
for the Revolution!) in the 1960s. The other point is that for a long
period, when the prices of oil were high, this was less of an issue. The
question I've always had is what DID (the 'action' in Anthony's remarks)
actually DO to alleviate this. As they had to play the Imperialist game and
they had no perspective of a planned economy beyond what Chavez attempted
to do, what choice did they have? They certainly were not going to foment
continental revolution were they?

At the end of the day...how could what is happening in Venezuela today
*not* happen??? Anyone?

David
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Re: [Marxism] "Ground rent" thesis at the Left forum

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 6/7/17 7:52 PM, Anthony Boynton via Marxism wrote:

On top of this, the Chavezistas, despite being aware of the need to use oil
rents to diversify the Venezuelan economy to be more self-reliant


I have problems with this. What exactly does this mean? Self-reliance in 
terms of what? Not having to buy medical equipment from American 
companies or machinery from Germany? Chavez pumped billions into the 
agricultural sector to make Venezuela relatively more self-sufficient in 
food but that sector was not geared to the export market like Cuba's 
tobacco. I'm afraid that a lot of this discussion is 20-20 hindsight.

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