Re: [meteorite-list] living near a strewfield
Hi, MARENGO, an L6, was found September 1991: One stone of 68g was found among rock piles on the side of a cultivated farm field by James A. Wotal and his son, Alex. Mineralogy (E.J. Olsen, Chicago): olivine Fa 25.0^, pyroxene Fs 21.2^. WOODBINE, on the other hand, was found by a deep-plowing tractor (Clunk!) in a single 48,200 gram hunk sometime in 1953. Good place for Steve Arnold (IMB) type metal detector or ground radar. Might be more big hunks. Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: Joe To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 8:21 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] living near a strewfield Steve and list, Is the marengo a strewn field? I think it was found in a rock pile. I do not think it was found in a field. Am I wrong? Maybe we could go to woodbine or maybe even try and find another marengo. Maybe the week after Park Forest? Maybe even this Sunday. Serg and I are down to search anyv possible strewn field in IL, just let me know when you want to go. If anyone else wants to go to any of them they can also contact me on or off list. Thanks, Joe Kerchner http://illinoismeteorites.com - Original Message From: steve arnold [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 7:17:39 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] living near a strewfield It seems that I actually live closer to the MARENGO strewnfield (24 miles) than park forest.I am also only 60 miles from the woodbind strewnfield as well.So I have to set the record straight. steve arnold Steve Arnold,Chicago,USA!! BIG Steve's Meteorites,1999!! Website://:stormbringer60120.tripod.com __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Chondrule formation mechanism (Info Please)
Hi, For those interested in follow-up to Sears' theories but reluctant to pop for the new book: Here's a nice (free) piece by Sears (cheaper than buying the $110 book...) http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc97/pdf/1179.PDF A summary of some of Sears' views (by Bernd Pauli): http://www7.pair.com/arthur/meteor/archive/archive4/Feb98/temp/msg00213.html The best tests are experimental: Chondrules can be made in the laboratory: http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/fiery_rain_000809.html Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: Warin Roger To: Sterling K. Webb ; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: E.P. Grondine Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 11:15 AM Subject: Re : [meteorite-list] Chondrule formation mechanism (Info Please) Hi, all, I am surprised that nobody evoked the theory following which chondrules were formed in relatively very few privileged zones of space. They would then form through one or more impacts of relatively large asteroids, onto the parent body covered with regoliths (and even with megaregoliths). The excellent book of Derek Sears, entitled “The origin of chondrules and chondrites” (Cambridge Planetary Science, 2004) supports this hypothesis. In corollary, ordinary chondrites (85% on Earth) would be quite rare in cosmos, and only few parent bodies would produce chondrites. Glad to hear some comments on the above assumptions. Thanks, Roger Warin - Message d'origine De : Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] À : meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc : E.P. Grondine [EMAIL PROTECTED] Envoyé le : Dimanche, 22 Octobre 2006, 20h38mn 55s Objet : Re: [meteorite-list] Chondrule formation mechanism (Info Please) Hi, Ed, Rob, This scenario (Ed's) would require that we would find a chondrule with a formation age of 3.9 Gya, I think. As far as I know, that has never happened. All chondrites (so called because they contain chondrules) are the same age: about 4.555 Gya. Chondrules are the same age (2 to 5 million years variation among chondrules) as the chondrites they occur in. The about is because the dating methods have a limit to how precisely they can resolve small age differences. Dating by lead isotopes says the solar system is 4.560 +/- 0.005 Gya old. Other systems of isotope measurements (like 147Sm/143Nd) give 4.553 +/- 0.003, and so forth. Within the limits of measurement, all chondrites are the same age, a hair younger than the solar system itself, the Class of Zero, and so are their chondrules. Meteorites that do not (never did) contain chondrules have varying ages. Lunaites are the age of that portion of the lunar crust they came from, generally quite old compared to Martians which have the formation age of the basalt flow they were chipped off of for the long haul to Earth. Irons, which formed inside a differentiating body, have younger ages; some very much younger if the differentiation took a long time (Weekeroo Station IIe is 4.340 Gya, Kodaikanal IIe 3.800 Gya, many IAB irons the same). I'm thinking that before you need to develop a theory to explain a 3.9 Gya chondrule, you'd have to actually have a 3.9 Gya chondrule. As far as I know, none with discordant ages have ever been found. In certain solar circles it would be Big News. Oddly, if you Google for oldest chondrule, you get the oldest chondrules, and if you Google for youngest chondrule, you get the oldest chondrules... on the grounds that it is young as the solar system. If you Google for discordant chondrule age, you get arguments over 2 or 3 million years in the age of something 4-1/2 billion years old. Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: E.P. Grondine [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 10:24 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Chondrule formation mechanism (Info Please) Hi Rob - You noticed the contradiction in cooling periods as well. What I am thinking is that there was at least one larger parent body which was disrupted about 3.9 Gya (at time of LPBE). When this larger parent body was disrupted, then the effervescent foaming that led to some chondrules occured - sudden cooling, as gravitation pressure had been released, and much lower local gravity. Local processes suddenly take over - a sharp gravitational and pressure transition, and a sudden cooling. Gross processes - perhaps sufficiently gross to overwhelm other small forces. Through collisions of the resulting fragments, we see some of the meteorite types we see today. good hunting, Ed __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Découvrez une nouvelle façon d'obtenir des réponses à toutes vos questions ! Profitez des connaissances, des opinions et des
Re: [meteorite-list] Wow. Look what I just stumbled across!
Hi, In this section, you will find references to the hydroplate theory. You really should back up to the table of contents and investigate the hydroplate theory, which maintains that there is (or was) a vast subterranean ocean 10 miles deep under the crust, a kilometer thick chamber, mounted on pillars, surrounding the Earth and filled with an ocean. This is a delightful throwback! And when I say throwback, I mean 'way back. This is the abyssmal ocean of ancient myth. The Sumerian word for it was apsu or absu from which the word abyss derives (the only word in English with a Sumerian root). But the concept was already old at the time of the earliest Sumerian culture and can be traced in Ubaid pottery motifs back to 5300 BC. (This dating would make the myth older than the world in this fellow's cosmology!) The mythological apsû was freshwater: lakes, springs, rivers, wells, and other sources of fresh water were thought to draw their water from the apsû. The Sumerian god Enki (Ea in Akkadian) was believed to have lived in the apsû since before human beings were created. His wife Damgalnuna, his mother Nammu, and a variety of creatures also lived in the apsû. In the city Eridu (predating the Sumericans, an Ubaid city), Enki's temple was known as E-abzu (the abzu temple) and was located at the edge of a swamp, an apsû. Certain tanks of holy water in Babylonian and Assyrian temple courtyards were also called apsû or abzu. Of course, it's nicely dressed up in scientific gobble- dity-gook about supercritical water; I do like a good myth-maker! The Great Fountains of the Deep make the ocean trenches, mid-ocean ridges, all strata, all limestone, blow all the comets and asteroids and meteorites off the face of the Earth. The Sumerians would be delighted at how durable their myth is! One might suppose the author of this fantasy to be superficially self-educated, but he is a Ph.D. from MIT, has taught college courses in physics, mathematics, and computer science, is a retired full colonel (Air Force), West Point graduate, and former Army ranger and paratrooper, former Director of Benet Research, Development, and Engineering Laboratories in Albany, New York; tenured associate professor at the U.S. Air Force Academy; and Chief of Science and Technology Studies at the Air War College (he says), and only found his way into this particular pocket universe after retirement. (My taxes are contributing to the military pension that supprts him while he does this nonsense. I should be miffed or ask for my two cents back.) The really fascinating thing is that he saves the Biblical creation and chronology by resort to an ancient mythos not found in the Bible, one which the Biblical authors would (and did) regard as thoroughly beyond the pale. They would have smote him down as an Assyrian apologist... (The Sumerians being long forgotten by the time the Bible was written.) But this is a durable myth; it creeps back into the cosmology of Cosmas Indicopleustes: http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/awiesner/cosmas.html although Dr. Brown leaves out the square corners of the Earth and the pillars that hold up the Heavens (careless of him). Very entertaining piece of Whackology. Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: Darren Garrison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 11:33 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Wow. Look what I just stumbled across! http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/Asteroids2.html __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] strewnfield map
Hi, The map is shown for sale on the website of the Astronomical League: http://www.astronomicalleague.com/MeteorMap.htm However, the usual on-line shopping cart isn't working at the moment (down for renovations). Here's what they say: Currently, League Sales is able to process your order if paid by check. You may contact Randy Thompson at [EMAIL PROTECTED] to inquire about available League Sales items, pricing, and shipping rates. (Please note this is a temporary E-mail address and subject to change.) Your payment will need to be received prior to your order being shipped. League Sales mailing address: Astronomical League Sales 9201 Ward Parkway, Suite 100 Kansas City, MO 64114 Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 12:52 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] strewnfield map I called the telephone # that someone gave which was 970- 879-3621, to to see if they still had strewnfield maps . Bill Peck did not answer the phone. It was someone trying to sell their house. Anyone else have a number for the strewnfield map? Jim Balister __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] strewnfield map NUMBER TWO
Hi, Bill Peck's address as of 2001: Guide to North American Meteorites B. D. Peck Philmont Route #1, Box 35 Cimarron, NM 87714 USA email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 7:38 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] strewnfield map Hi, The map is shown for sale on the website of the Astronomical League: http://www.astronomicalleague.com/MeteorMap.htm However, the usual on-line shopping cart isn't working at the moment (down for renovations). Here's what they say: Currently, League Sales is able to process your order if paid by check. You may contact Randy Thompson at [EMAIL PROTECTED] to inquire about available League Sales items, pricing, and shipping rates. (Please note this is a temporary E-mail address and subject to change.) Your payment will need to be received prior to your order being shipped. League Sales mailing address: Astronomical League Sales 9201 Ward Parkway, Suite 100 Kansas City, MO 64114 Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 12:52 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] strewnfield map I called the telephone # that someone gave which was 970- 879-3621, to to see if they still had strewnfield maps . Bill Peck did not answer the phone. It was someone trying to sell their house. Anyone else have a number for the strewnfield map? Jim Balister __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Rob's Comet's Exciting Explosion Part II
Hi, The preliminary orbit published in July said Comet 2006 M4 would make the big turn around the Sun on September 28, 2006, at a distance of only 0.132 AU or 12,225,000 miles. The orbit has since been corrected and the closest approach to the Sun was 0.793 AU. The closest approach to the Earth was yesterday! But it was at a distance of 0.999 AU. Not exactly a close call! And hardly likely to be the cause of a gravitational breakup event. You can see its orbit in an animated movie at the JPL Small-Body Database. The movie can be progressed forward and backward at will (you have to have Java to run the applet): http://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/sbdb.cgi?ID=dK06M040;orb=1;cov=0 Rob's Green Monster is a one-time pleasure; it's leaving the Solar System, never to return. It's in a hyperbolic orbit, probably because whatever deflected it inward toward the Sun gave it an extra good push. The comet came in below the ecliptic plane, crossed the plane August 19-20, and is now above it. I spent three nights finally getting a sight of the comet in early October, from deep inside the Midwest Murk. As for my chances of actually SEEING it now...? Anyone who tried to watch Wednesday's World Series Game (rained out) has a perfect picture of my observing conditions! I live exactly 26.5 miles from the stadium in a little river town on the east shore of the Mississippi River The river is bordered by sheer limestone bluffs 150-250 feet high, while the west shore (in Missouri) is a flood plain and the much lower bluffs there are 25-30 miles inland from the river (the river was that wide once, carrying the glacial melt). There is a park is 235 feet up, on the very verge of the river, not lit, and has an outlook spur with a clear view. Skyglow is south and behind, and the land to the northwest contains no city of any size for hundreds of miles. Before you blithely believe the naked-eye or pair of binoculars propaganda, that is only true if you are lucky enough to be somewhere that is truly DARK, completely and totally dark, and such spots are rare today. I spent three nights in a row up there in early October. The first with good binoculars and had no luck. The second with good BIG binoculars, tripod and camera, and had no luck. Finally, I disassembled a large astronomical telescope, stuffed it into my car, re-assembled it in the park, set it up and waited for dark. It's a nice comet, worth the work. But I hope nobody thinks they're going to set out into the backyard with their birdwatching bino's and take a peek, unless they happen to live in a pool of inky blackness. You can tell that Doug is really happy to see it; he was having a tougher time than I was, as his location is not a favorable one. I just hope that Rob has gotten a good look at his own comet! Me, I hope the comet continues to fragment (a not unlikely prospect) and becomes a true naked eye object of magnitude 3 or even 2! Then, even those birdwatching bino's in the backyard will be enough! Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: E.P. Grondine [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 11:08 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Rob's Comet's Exciting Explosion Part II Hi Doug - I wonder why Rob's come frgamented up at this particular time. Where was Rob's comet at in terms of the plane of the ecliptic? Had it just passed a nearby large gravitational body? good hunting, Ed --- MexicoDoug [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Listees, Rob's green Comet has exploded. This is fascinating and this is big news for Comet people. OK, I should say it had an unexpected outburst and just got 5-10 times brighter while it was just on its way out and ready to wane quickly. I'm sure if we were on the comet that would be a mean explosion. It now kicks the butt of SW3 in brightness. As the Moon is getting stronger, Wednesday night (tonight, and maybe one more night) is basically the last chance unless something else fantastic happens like just did to this comet 10 hours ago or so. Congratulations, Rob, your Comet just turned into one of the top 5 of the last decade! The outburst is nice! Here's a comparison with a normal consumer digital camera nights of , widest angle setting (35mm equivalent zoom setting of a 35-200). Lat. @ 30º24' 20:50PM EDT (same time, 120 min after Sunset, and place both days). Transparency was a little worse the second night, but a great Milky Way sky both times. www.diogenite.com/061024-25.jpg The top is the evening of 2006 Oct 24.06 which is: C/2006 M4 (SWAN) 2006 Oct. 24.04 UT: m1=5.9, Dia.= 8', DC=7 above average transparency vis. LM = 6.0 The bottom is the evening of 2006 Oct 24.06 which is: C/2006 M4 (SWAN) 2006 Oct. 25.04 UT: m1=4.4, Dia.= 8', DC=8 average transparency vis. LM = 5.6 If you want to see the magnitudes of the comparison stars in the side-by-side photo above, they here is a star chart
Re: Re : [meteorite-list] Chondrule formation mechanism (Info Please)
an early solar system and a present asteroid belt that is very tightly zoned. In other words, the Earthly prevalence of chondrites would just be a coincidence. The evidence is that the asteroid belt is a gumbo, though, full of all sorts of things that don't belong there. The failure to find obvious sources for chondrites in the asteroid belt is one of the great nagging problems that has never been answered well, so he may have something. I'm just not sure what. Sears says one advantage of the theory is that otherwise the energy required to flash melt a solar system full of chondrules is a major fraction of the total energy available. Of course a precursor supernova that melted them would take care of that problem, too. Supernovae have a way of making short work of both problems and non-problems alike! The nearest short-term supernova candidate is HR8210 or IK Pegasi, which is incomfortably close at 150 light years. http://www.eso.org/outreach/eduoff/edu-prog/catchastar/casreports-2004/rep-310/ and http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn2311 Of course, it could take millions of years to go super, or it could happen in 10,000 years, or it could start up tomorrow. That's what makes life so interesting. Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: Rob McCafferty [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Pete Pete [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 2:52 PM Subject: RE: Re : [meteorite-list] Chondrule formation mechanism (Info Please) I suppose you are correct. I suspect the iron flecks in chondrites must be stellar relics. The iron is formed in the cores of all stars. Nuclearly speaking it is the stablest of all elements (lowest binding energy per neucleon...or is it the highest, can't remember) So as a consequence it is the final fusion product in the cores of all stars which are heavy enough to get that far (red dwarf stars aren't considered massive enough to get beyond the helium burning phase). However, only supernovae spread their innards out at the end so every atom of iron was created by a supernova as indeed was every atom that isn't hydrogen, helium or lithium. All others are created in stars. However, the atoms higher in the periodic table cannot be made in stars as they require a net input of energy to fuse whereas the lighter ones relase energy. Only in a huge energy surplus can you manufacture these higher elements. This is where the supernova comes in. In that brief period where the star aoutshines an entire galaxy, there is enough excess energy to create quantities of elements up to Uranium (and possibly beyond but non of these are stable). This is a most wonderful process which not only creates all the elements needed for life but also seeds the universe with them. And not a crackpot creationist theory involving venting asteroids into space in sight. As for the ages of the iron/nickel. I'm not sure if ages are measured or if they can be. That'd be interesting if they could. It's probable that our sun and solar system are not even second or third generation. The big stars last only a short period and there's been a long time for the cycle to repeat a few times. Rob McC --- Pete Pete [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, all, This discussion about chondrules is fascinating! Hoping not to digress off this topic too much, but a question I have is about the metal flecks (not the later-formed iron meteorites) in any of the stonies. Have they ever been given an estimated age? If the heavy elements, such as nickel and iron, are created by a supernova, and the chondrules are in theory formed much later during the future dynamics of our solar system's nebula, would it be fair to say that the metal flecks would be billions and billions (apologies, Carl) of years OLDER than chondrules? And that they came from a distance much further than our solar system's vicinity? Considering that the supernova is exploding outward and the new elements' density is thinning out very quickly, wouldn't it be more likely that these iron and nickel flecks that eventually found a new home in our solar nebula and meteorites have come from more than one, probably a lot more, supernova? If so, why don't we see any remnants of any supernova explosion in our relative proximity? The Helix Nebula is the closest to us, at 450 light-years! http://images.google.ca/images?q=helix+nebulahl=enlr=sa=Xoi=imagesct=title Not even a wisp left... Are tiny, but very dense, nebulas even possible? I can't imagine dust-bunny nebulae. If not, would it be unreasonable to expect that our planetary nebula could have extended out to Centauri, where our closest star neighbours are? When I dwell on the Pillars of Creation photos (Orion stellar-formation nebula, http://hubblesite.org/newscenter/newsdesk/archive/releases/1995/44/image/a) that describes a small point being comparable to the breadth of our solar
Re: [meteorite-list] MUNICH PHOTOS
Hi, Dean, Bright and early in Munich; almost everybody on this side of the planet is likely snoozing by now. The proportions look about right: beer, beer, spacerock, beer, beer, spacerock, beer, beer, spacerock... It's important to maintain the correct ratio. Thanks for the look. Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: dean bessey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2006 1:07 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] MUNICH PHOTOS I have been to busy to get a show report or many photos but here are few anyway. Good time to be had by all and lots of meteorites around. http://www.meteoriteshop.com/munich06/munich06.html Cheers DEAN http://www.meteoriteshop.com Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail (http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/) __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Time for a Met-List Upgrade?
Hi, Comcast seems to be a ongoing source of problems. Surprised about Bill's problems with, is that ATT? My ISP is SBC which became ATT and they have been surprisingly good, with great service, as in, they fix things quick and permanently. Surprised me. I expected worse. Instead of switching ISP's (if they're good otherwise), you can just sign up for a free email account with Google, Yahoo, Hotmail, whoever you like, and use it just for The List. Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: Bill [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2006 7:41 PM Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] Time for a Met-List Upgrade? My isp, att, was very erratic and cut me off met-list and meteorobs several times. The service I'm using now for these lists works well enough. Better than att at least. Regards, Bill K -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sat, 4 Nov 2006 11:15:21 -0800 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Time for a Met-List Upgrade? After speaking with several people off list and many months of frustrating bounced emails and met-list account problems I feel it necessary to make a suggestion. According to others, the software that generates and manages this list is out of date. Many of us receive 25% of what the list actually generates. I constantly check the archives hoping not to miss out on informative posts (and 'Big Steve' selling meteorites for 90% off). Isn't it time to consider a major update of met-list software? I would be willing to pitch in some money to help fund such an upgrade. What about others? Is this a realistic goal? What do you think? Is this old news (I wouldn't know because I rarely get posts)? Kind regards, Mike Bandli [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] COMET SWAN (C/2006 M4)
Hi, This beautiful little green comet has just made its fourth appearance in the Astronomy Picture of the Day: http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/astropix.html If you miss catching the photo today, it will still be in the APOD archives under today's date. The three previous APOD images were all in the past thirty days, on October 4th, 19th, and 28th. The comet was discovered independently by List member Rob Matson and Michael Mattiazzo (of Austrailia) on Solar Wind ANisotropy images, which is why it isn't called Comet Matson-Mattiazzo, which would have been a euphonious name. You can catch the now-fading comet with biggish binoculars or a small telescope. It's in the middle of the constellation Hercules right now. A chart of its positions by date can be found at: http://www.aerith.net/comet/catalog/2006M4/2006M4.html The other thing you need is a good view of the sky. (I've had nine straight days of overcast and cloud cover.) Sterling K. Webb - __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] OT -- Mercury Transit
Hi, I suspect overwhelmed servers. I got several Server Not Available messages. But the rest of the sites I tried just rolled over and died. I guess it's nice that more people than one might have thought wanted to watch a live celestial event. I hope the servers didn't just fail and somebody got to see it. Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: Matson, Robert [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 2:08 PM Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] OT -- Mercury Transit Unfortunately, none of the Mercury transit pages I've searched so far today have shown a live image of the solar disk -- very disappointing. --Rob -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of tracy latimer Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 9:59 AM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] OT -- Mercury Transit http://www.hawaii.edu/cgi-bin/uhnews?20061106154828 Webcast for anyone who doesn't have a solar filter for their 12 scope... enjoy! Tracy Latimer __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Wingstars
Hi, Wingstars are meteor-wrongs. A gentleman named Russell T. Wing published The Discovery of the Wingstars, Volume I and II, decades ago. It's a classic case of delusion; he saw meteorites everywhere: quartz ones, linestone ones, petrified wood ones... The books are the best collection of color plates of meteor-wrongs ever made, though. Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 9:55 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Wingstars Hi List! Has anyone ever heard of wingstars? They look just like meteorites, but no nickel! I have seen a book on them but can't remember the name of it. Anyone know of it? Jim Balister __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Fw: [meteorite-list] CRE ages of Nakhlites and NWA 998
Hi, Walter, List There are disputes about the K-Ar dating of Martian rocks because of the high level of 36Ar in the atmosphere and the likelihood of losing 40K from the surface rocks. One group suggests the 38Ar dates are distorted (see reference below). because atmospheric and cosmogenic 40Ar and 36Ar would confound accurate measurements and calibration, and because 40Ar may be lost from the sample over time... One problem could be that the isotope levels of the Martian rock are whacky even before it's blasted off the planet. - Free-browsing copy of a good source of information on the arguments on Martian geology: http://fermat.nap.edu/books/0309089174/html -- It would be difficult to explain the 38Ar discrepancies as a loss of the gas from the sample in transit, because the crystal lattice gaps that would let some of the 38Ar escape from the rock would let ALL the 3He out, since the He atom is much smaller than the 38Ar atom and leaks out much more readily (as much as I hate to disagree with Bernd). Heating would allow the 3He to escape first. Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: Walter Branch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 2:15 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] CRE ages of Nakhlites and NWA 998 Hello Everyone, I have been studying nakhlites in general and martian meteorite NWA 998 in particular. This paper, http://www-curator.jsc.nasa.gov/antmet/mmc/XXV_NWA998.pdf quotes a CRE of 9.3 m.y. using 38Ar. This paper http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2005/pdf/1137.pdf quotes a CRE age of 9.4 m.y, again using 38Ar. However, the paper further points out CRE ages using 3He and 21Ne are in better agreement (12.2 and 11.7 m.y., respectively) and are in agreement with other nakhlite CRE ages. The authors state, All nakhlite CRE ages based on Ar are significant (sic) younger than those based on He and Ne, an unexplained characteristic also observed among some shergotite CRE ages. Does anyone know why this is? -Walter Branch - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 2:39 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] CRE ages of Nakhlites and NWA 998 Maybe the nakhlites underwent a(nother) high temperature event (collision?) while floating in space. Maybe this event influenced the cosmogenic nuclides of 38Ar in a different way than those of 4He and 21Ne. Maybe one of the radio- genic clocks was thus (partially) reset. I don't know if such a *p a r t i a l* resetting is possible. Maybe this high temperature event led to a preferential loss of argon while the NWA 998 nakhlite was able to retain its amount of radio- genic helium and neon. Nothing to back it up with, ... only guessing. Bernd __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien red rain not in Spain
Hi, All, Not Again?! Alien Rain G!!! Algae G!!! Bat's blood? Everything fits to the last detail! It is clear from Geoffrey Louis's own micrographs that only one variety of material is present, that it is of only one geometric type, and that is of an erythrocyte (a red blood cell), which has NO DNA. Louis denied DNA has been found until very recently. Wickramasighne claims to have detected it, but does so only to the press, and admits that his co-workers in his own lab DO NOT agree with him and independent labs cannot confirm the finding. The amounts, if detected, are on the very edge of detection error. These two sources dismiss bat blood: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_rain_in_Kerala http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/2006/03/03/1427866.htm But their reasons for doing so is in error. They imagine from usual characteristics of mammalian blood in general that its red cells would dissolve in rainwater, that blood lipids would be present (and bat fragments!). But bat's blood is more than unusual; it's dramatically unique, and it WOULD be preserved. But the fact that the cell-like particles are exactly the size and of the exactly the geometric configuration as red blood cells -- imaged micrographically they are identical! -- is too much coincidence. THEY IN NO WAY RESEMBLE ALGAE! (Mark, look at the micrographs!) They're saying that here is evidence of something that is INDISTINGUISHABLE from a red blood cell, but it's REALLY an alien because it's too unlikely to be blood from an earthly creature. Too unlikely? Is being an alien invader somehow MORE likely? Silly. Silly. Silly. Yes, Wickramasinghe says he MAY have found traces of DNA, but Geoffry Louis is adament that there isn't any, and repeat tests by specialist labs agree with that. (English university labs have samples for nearly a year.) Louis himself released a claim that they multiplied, but then refused to acknowledge it publically. He has his supporters (Monica Grady for one), but his scientific pronouncements are absurd. Now that they've met, Wicky says he believes they multiply and Louis says they have DNA. Duh. (We're so glad you boys are getting on so well.) The Indian government's identification of them as algae spores is one more piece of bad science, something that abounds in this case. Algae are full of DNA; that's what spores ARE: DNA Delivery!) The visual identification of the cells as mammalian (rather that avian or other) erythrocytes corresponds rather nicely with the fact that there is a mammal that inhabits the atmosphere. And I think we can all agree that bats can stay over a region (for weeks or months) much longer than a comet! Signs of lousy science abound in this affair. Why no bat parts? Why only red blood cells? What happened to the bats? The answer is a hemorrhagic disorder. The tropics are rife with hemorrhagic diseases of man and animal. Bats are very susceptible to such disorders, it seems. Google hemorrhagic diseases of bats and you get 78,700 hits. It's a long and nasty list of lyssaviruses, hentaviruses, and there's several pages of scholarly articles on emerging hemorrhagic diseases of bats at the very top of that list. In case you're not familiar with the horrors of hemorrhagic diseases, they cause bleeding from every conceivable (and inconceivable) orifice of the body. Human hemorrhagic diseases often cause the victim to literally sweat blood. Kerrala is home to immense bat populations, in cluding the large vegetarian bats (flying foxes) or macrochiropitae. An epidemic of bat hemorrhagic disease is the explanation. The afflicted bats would bleed as they flew until they were too weak to fly, whereipon they would die at home, in the cave or nook. No bat parts or fragments involved. Just millions of sick bats dripping blood, vomiting blood, passing blood, for weeks. Bat red cells, due to their unusual construction and composition, persist in water for years (just as these have). End of story. Case complete. Aliens Go Home. This tale is not proof of anything but the human folly of wanting to believe in something so badly that your brain goes dead. Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: mark ford [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 3:21 AM Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] Alien red rain not in Spain Alien Rain G!!! Don't get me started!! Last night on BBC 2 (uk) a program called Horizon was shown, it was all about whether we are descended from aliens (i.e. panspermia). It featured Prof Godfey Louis and Prof Chandra Wickramasinghe and the now famous 'Red rain'. I have to say I have never seen such a biased TV program in my life, it was ridiculous. The only real counter argument was from someone who they made to look stupid, by dodgey camera work. Frankly it made me really angry. They just slid in the little fact
Re: [meteorite-list] ad: Beauty and the Beast
It's DIMMITT, dammit! Not DIMMIT. (I'm not angry; I just couldn't resist the euphony...) NHM Catalogue says: DIMMITT, Castro County, Texas, 1942. At least 21 stones, totalling 13.5kg, were found; the fall may perhaps be identical with Tulia ( q.v._ ), H.H. Nininger A.D. Nininger (1950). Analysis, 24.8 % total iron, V.Ya. Kharitonova (1969). Mineralogy, olivine Fa 20^ , B. Mason (1963). Breccia, contains H5 and LL-group clasts, A.E. Rubin et al. (1981). 364 specimens are included under the Dimmitt name in the Monnig collection and totalling 177kg. These may be from more than a single fall, Boy, I wish I'd bought your Brahin; it was so much prettier than my Brahin... Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: tett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 7:44 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] ad: Beauty and the Beast List, Another one of my slightly off the wall auctions. In two hours a small CR2 slice and a slice of Dimmit to be sold together. Dimmit is so ugly that I thought I would sweeten the auction with a really pretty companion piece. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemih=017sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AITviewitem=item=270053003688rd=1rd=1 Read from a Hupe sale that Dimmit is a fall as of 1950. Met Bulliten does not recogonize Dimmit as a fall. Anyone have knowledge if it is or is'nt? Cheers, tett __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Blogger post failed
Hi, I too have been getting blogger post failed messages, at least twice in the last 30 days when posting to the Meteorite List, but oddly not on every post to the List (or we'd all be deluged in blogger gateway error messages). That makes two of us getting them. Anybody else getting blogger rejections? Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: Darren Garrison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 5:54 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Blogger post failed Here's that weird message again. What address on the list is feeding into a blog? X-Symantec-TimeoutProtection: 0 Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Received: from aa03.charter.net ([10.20.200.155]) by mtao04.charter.net (InterMail vM.6.01.06.03 201-2131-130-104-20060516) with ESMTP id [EMAIL PROTECTED] for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Fri, 17 Nov 2006 18:46:07 -0500 Received: from blogger.com ([66.102.15.83]) by aa03.charter.net with ESMTP id [EMAIL PROTECTED] for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Fri, 17 Nov 2006 18:46:07 -0500 Received: by blogger.com (Postfix, from userid 99) id 42108D8366; Fri, 17 Nov 2006 15:54:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from bla18.blogger.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by blogger.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29429D8365 for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Fri, 17 Nov 2006 15:54:04 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Blogger post failed From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-Id: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 15:54:04 -0800 (PST) bla18.blogger.com tests=ALL_TRUSTED,NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=failed version=3.0.2 X-Chzlrs: 0 Blogger could not process your message at this time. Error code: 6.182B958 __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II
Martin Altmann said: There were always wars, wars, wars... funny enough, people now ranting about the European Union always forget... 1337-1453 Hundred Years' War 1455-1485 Wars of the Roses 1496-1499 Russo-Swedish War of 1496-1499 1522-1559 Habsburg-Valois Wars 1554-1557 Russo-Swedish War of 1554-1557 1558-1583 Livonian War 1568-1648 Eighty Years' War 1590-1595 Russo-Swedish War of 1590-1595 1594-1603 Nine Years' War (Ireland) 1610-1617 Ingrian War 1618-1648 Thirty Years' War 1641-1649 Wars of Castro 1641-1653 Irish Confederate Wars 1642-1651 English Civil War 1644-1650 Scottish Civil War 1656-1658 Russo-Swedish War of 1656-1658 1667-1668 War of Devolution 1667-1683 Great Turkish War 1688-1691 Williamite War in Ireland 1700-1721 Great Northern War 1701-1713 War of the Spanish Succession 1733-1738 War of the Polish Succession 1739-1740 War of Jenkins' Ear 1740-1748 War of the Austrian Succession 1741-1743 Russo-Swedish War of 1741-1743 1756-1763 Seven Years' War 1788-1790 Russo-Swedish War of 1788-1790 1789-1799 French Revolution 1798 Irish Rebellion of 1798 1792-1815 Napoleonic Wars 1808-1809 Finnish War 1848-1866 Italian Independence wars 1848-1849 First Italian Independence War 1859 Second Italian Independence War 1866 Third Italian Independence War 1854-1856 Crimean War 1866-1866 Austro-Prussian War 1870-1871 Franco-Prussian War 1877-1878 Russo-Turkish War 1893-1896 Cod War of 1893 1897 First Greco-Turkish War 1912-1913 Balkan Wars 1914-1918 World War I 1916 Easter Rising 1917-1920 Estonian Liberation War 1918-1919 Czechoslovakia-Hungary War 1918 Finnish Civil War 1918-1920 Russian Civil War 1919-1921 Irish War of Independence 1922-1923 Irish Civil War 1936-1939 Spanish Civil War 1939-1940 Winter War 1939-1945 World War II 1958 First Cod War 1972-1973 Second Cod War 1974 Turkish Invasion of Cyprus 1975-1976 Third Cod War 1994-1996 First Chechen War 1991 War in Slovenia 1991-1995 Croatian War of Independence 1992-1995 War in Bosnia and Herzegovina 1996-1999 Kosovo War 1999-present Second Chechen War 2001 Conflict in Macedonia 2001 Conflict in Southern Serbia Only 63 wars in 500 years, or one every 7.94 years. Eleven wars in 33 years (1912-1945) is probably a world record. Doesn't count wars that Europeans participated in that didn't take place IN Europe (otherwise the list would be 120, 150, or 200 wars long). I feel totally abashed. The USA has only had 14 or 15 wars in 225 years, if you count our War for Independency, John Adams' undeclared naval war on France in 1798, two wars with Barbary pirates, the Whiskey Rebellion (whiskey lost, BTW), and all the wars we participated in that were outside the United States. We've never managed to have a war 100 years long or even 30 years long (although we seem to be trying to do that in Iraq). And we've certainly never managed to have a war as magnificently named as The War of Jenkins' Ear! Now, that's how to name a war! Clear, concise, and everybody knows exactly what it's all about. Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: Martin Altmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'MexicoDoug' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 1:27 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II Hi Doug, so flagrant is my commercialism not. Yes, I do have a slice of Elbogen left for sale, but I guess, if you'd ask Dieter Heinlein, you would pay 10$ less per gram. For the spelling of uncle Alois I always find two variants: Widmanstätten (with a single n and the German letter for the diphthong, the a with the 2 dots above) or Beck-Widmannstetter. Which one was more in use? I don't know. We have to ask the list-members from Austria to look in the specific biographical lexika. There still exists several descendants today, they spell themselves Beckh-Widmannstetter. Ehm, Doug, the story with the font is different. It's the most famous and incredible meteorite legend in history. Be prepared! There was a prophecy about the Burggraf-Klumpen. It said, whenever it will be let down into the font of Loket castle, it will come up again. Well, so once it was let down in the font, and after a while, they tore him out gain. Spooky, isn't it Doug? I forgot where I read that story and also why the chunk was hidden at which opportunity. Whether it was in the Napoleonic wars, or whether Wallenstein wanted to found bullets out of it, whether some Hussites were hiding it... There were always wars, wars, wars...funny enough, people now ranting about the European Union always forget, in what for a privileged situation they're living. 60 years without greater wars. Buckleboo! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von MexicoDoug Gesendet: Freitag, 24. November 2006 22:32 An: Martin Altmann Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II
Hi, Doug, Martin, List, Operating on the principle that the longer I talk, the more likely my chance to really annoy someone becomes, I snipped a lot of sentences out of what I originally wrote. The history of the USA up until 1900-1910 is best described as a kind of ongoing conflict, somewhat short of formal war. I was going to say that, so no disagreement there. In fact, the history of most nations can be so described with some accuracy. Even with Martin's addition of a few hundred more wars for Europe, there's a background of conflict that generates them. The Serbian obsession with Kosovo, its ancient homeland, dates from a conquest late in the first millennium AD of the people who still live there, the Illyrians, or rather their descendents, who were there before the first millennium BC, which makes the Serbian historical claim look a little silly. But these ethnic histories solve nothing; one has only to look at the Middle East to have that demonstrated. Such arguments over who is exclusively entitled to the land are endless, unending, and productive of nothing but carnage, even between folks as completely and totally indistinguishable as two Irishmen. United Statesians (so as to avoid the over-broad usage of Americans) mostly have what is so often called a naive view: Why doesn't everybody just forget about settling the score for the past and try to work on solving the problems that exist NOW? The scorn of the sophisticated not withstanding, there is a another name for this: SANITY. If the price of this mental health is to be achieved by, say, modern Europeans, acting as if THEY never had a war, being morally superior to those so backward as to get stuck in conflicts, well, sanity is worth that. That IS the idea -- to dump the past. History, said James Joyce a century ago, is a nightmare I'm trying to wake up from. does Europe have a Battle of Little Bighorn, which... was the fight leading to the demise of a race of people? Duh. Yeah! And the Sioux (and all the other tribes that participated in an INDIAN victory there) still exist, no thanks to General Custer, just as Jews still exist, no thanks to... We weren't going to drag up the past, were we? if the Indians had caught on quicker... American natives caught on right away. They each and all sat in council about what to do about the odd newcomers from the very year they first showed up! Every strategy you can imagine was tried. It's common- place to present these centuries of native statecraft as if they all sat there like idiots until the late 1800's, but that notion is what is really demeaning. A delay of a potential annihilation for centuries is a major achievement; there are innumerable spots around the globe where indigenous peoples have been destroyed in a decade or three. As for uniting scores, even hundreds, of nations with no common language, belief, or culture, ask Tecumseh about how that worked out... The real war was epidemiological. The Black Death made its way into North America ahead of the Europeans, in the 15th century, and was followed shortly by a flood of new European diseases in the next century. Europeans, in person, were entering devastated and de-populated lands everywhere in the New World, north and south. Not that they weren't trying to kill the locals, just that their efforts were puny compared to what the microbes (whose existence both sides were unaware of) accomplished. It's hard to slow down an invasion when your own population is reduced by up to 90%! I'm sorry you were so upset by General Oglethorpe and the Battle of Bloody Marsh, Doug, but I will remind you that it took place after Jerkins carted his ear-in-a-jar up to the British Parliment and got Walpole to declare the Ear War. Had the fortunes of war fallen differently, why, you would be walking the picturesque calles de Neuvo Atlanta, capitol of Las Floridas del Norte, while avoiding the camera-toting USian tourists in their garish shirts and plastic flip-flops... I would love to kick around the causes of the five-day Football War with you, Doug, but I think that it breaks the tenuous chain that links Jenkins' ear to a wet meteorite in a moat surrounded by mocking Frenchmen! Sterling K. Webb -- And Bill just summed it up in three sentences better than either of us, I think... -- - Original Message - From: MexicoDoug [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 8:56 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II Sterling wrote: 1739-1740 War of Jenkins' Ear And [the USA's] certainly never managed to have a war as magnificently named as The War of Jenkins' Ear! Now, that's how to name a war! Clear, concise, and everybody knows exactly what it's all about. Hey
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II
Hi, Doug, Hijacking your nice thread again... The tektites in Tikal didn't find their way there by any other means than falling out of the sky. They have been found in the temples, anciently collected, and one much more degraded one has been found in the forests surrounding. Alan Hildebrandt dated them and they fall right into the upper end of the dating spread for Australite/ Indochinite tektites, which, surprise! they look just exactly like. Grab your globe and give it a twirl. Tikal's antipodal point is on the western edge of the Australo-Asian strewn field. Likewise, an Ivorite was recovered from off shore of the Australian coast. equally antipodal to Ivory Coast, unless you think the currents carried it there -:) laughing... Casa Grande was found in 1867: A mass of 3407lb was found in an ancient tomb, E.G. Tarayre (1867). L. Fletcher (1890) implies that this mass was presented to the Smithsonian Institution in 1876. First Description, W. Tassin (1902). Analysis, 7.74 %Ni, G.P. Merrill (1913). Historical note, O.E. Monnig (1939)... Somebody asked for referrences on meteorite collecting by early American cultures (Maybe Ed). Here's one about Hopewell meteorite collecting, except it goes on to discuss dozens of other cultures, locales, and meteorites including Casa Grandes. It's a nice piece of work by Olaf Prufer: https://kb.osu.edu/dspace/bitstream/1811/4817/1/V61N06_341.pdf No surprize, H. H. Nininger wrote METEORITE COLLECTING AMONG ANCIENT AMERICANS in 1938. That paper can be found at: http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0002-7316(193807)4%3A1%3C39%3AMCAAA%3E2.0.CO%3B2-W but it's where no mere mortal without official access can view it... You can read the first page, though, which is enough to see that it covers much the same ground as the paper previously cited (up above this one) which you can get to see (and download). Handing the thread back to you, Doug. Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: MexicoDoug [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Martin Altmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 4:03 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II Whe, Martin, thanks for the kind comments -- I re-read my post, your words and by all means did take one comment very much to heart. I'm guilty as charged for not giving further consideration to other meteoritically interested cultures between those Germanic and ancients. I think Ed would be the better expert in that department on this side of the Atlantic. You speak of the Aztecs as a culture with as rich of a treatment of things meteoritic as the medieval traditions in your lands... I'd like to know more about that. I'd be interested in knowing what meteorites the Aztecs venerated, feared, deified, or imbued with magical qualities. Are you perhaps thinking of Xocotl the Aztec god of fire and Dark and occult side of planet Venus? I think he was more likey born spewn from a volcano, of which there are many in his territory, or as legend goes, a ball of feathers fell in a temple his virgin mother then bore him and others. So Xocotl's mother may have been fertilized by a meteorite in a stretch of faith (the feathers could be thought of as cometary)...but these are much further musings than others I've made:-) Maybe your reference is meant to consider the over 1.5 ton Casas Grandes Iron meteorite mummy found in the ruins of the temple of a mysterious peoples of Mexico and carted out to Philadelphia, USA. I say mysterious peoples as I don't think you can call them Aztecs with certainty, and they may actually be somewhat Navajo. Unfortunately, the information on that culture is so scant, circumstantial and too inconclusive. But the Casas Grandes meteorite had fallen tens of thousands of years before that region was populated. Thus, at best, one can imagine that it was appreciated for its heft and unique nearly indestructable properties. The reason I'm not sure we can call that culture Aztec, is because the business end of the great Aztec empire was generally disconnected and geographically no where near the southern limits of that mysterious culture, to make tribute payments to the empire. In fact, it seems to just mysteroiusly vanished without battle before the Spanish first appeared anywhere on the scene. There is contentious speculaion that that particular culture was from northern New Mexico near Colorado, and Ed may be able to add more on that subject. It seems to me they were their own independent culture eventually centered in Paquimé, Chihuahua, very close to El Paso TX - Juarez MX, where the meteorite was dug up. Hopefully we can learn more, but anything new will be an uphill battle the way the evidence is so limited and thus dominated more by speculations. I am not aware of too much shared
Re: [meteorite-list] What is this?
Hi, This is a strictly two-cents-worth opinion, since I have a stone that is a twin to this one (at least, photographically) except that it is only the size of a very small ostrich egg: same shape, same smooth finish, shiny black and dense, not native to this limestone country I live in. It is no mystery. The glaciers brought it here, but then finished it off in the immense and violent outflow that poured forth when the Wisconsin glaciation melted rapidly. The prolate spheroid shape is produced by the stone spinning around its longest axis in the high-speed flow and grinding against everything else in the flow. River cobbles are just as smooth but irregular, even polygonal. But if you spin it fast enough, as the Mississippi must have flowed when it carved a 25-mile wide channel with 200-foot cliffs on either side, this is the shape you get. I found my little one in a gully about ten miles down from where the face of the glacier that sat on Illinois was. This gully wasn't any Mississippi, but I bet it was cut through the limestone in an hour or a day, like a Scablands channel. Or, maybe, it's a Thunderbird egg... Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: E.P. Grondine [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 11:53 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] What is this? Hi Jim - The remains at Moundsville are covered in my book Man and Impact in the Americas, and I have visited there several times, inclusing tracing the Grave Creek trade path. There was extensive Native American settlement in the entire area (map page 133 Man and Impact in the Americas). Most of the mounds were pretty well leveled by 1894, excepting the Main mound. I have not visited the other mound which you mention still exists. I'm sure that maps from 1894 would show active European cemeteries. These could be compared against Schoolcraft's map. The area was also very heavily industrialized by 1894, so some industrial object can not be excluded. Perhaps a buisness directory or town directory or some such would allow identification of the individual in the initials. Check with the genealogical section of the library in Moundsville. (PS - They have a copy of my book, available for free loan.) As I mentioned before, I've never seen anything like it. The WVA archaeologists someimes meet at the museum at the big mound, so you could stop by there and check when they will be meeting. Or you might try contacting them through the internet. What material is the object composed of? Ed --- Jim Strope [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Ed.. I don't know how to take the name grave digger. I am guessing that is a polite way of saying that he dug into indian burrial mounds in the area. The initials, I am guessing, are of the finder since the 1894 corresponds to the year that it was supposedly found. There are no river rocks like that in this area. However, it has been suggested by another list member that it could be transported glacial rock. The glaciers stopped their advance along a line in Northern Ohio which is probably about 100 miles north of where this was found.Moundsville WV. There were several adena burial mounds in this area. Still are two. Jim Strope 421 Fourth Street Glen Dale, WV 26038 http://www.catchafallingstar.com Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II
Hi, Doug, Hijacking your nice thread again... The tektites in Tikal didn't find their way there by any other means than falling out of the sky. They have been found in the temples, anciently collected, and one much more degraded one has been found in the forests surrounding. Alan Hildebrandt dated them and they fall right into the upper end of the dating spread for Australite/ Indochinite tektites, which, surprise! they look just exactly like. Grab your globe and give it a twirl. Tikal's antipodal point is on the western edge of the Australo-Asian strewn field. Likewise, an Ivorite was recovered from off shore of the Australian coast. equally antipodal to Ivory Coast, unless you think the currents carried it there -:) laughing... Casa Grande was found in 1867: A mass of 3407lb was found in an ancient tomb, E.G. Tarayre (1867). L. Fletcher (1890) implies that this mass was presented to the Smithsonian Institution in 1876. First Description, W. Tassin (1902). Analysis, 7.74 %Ni, G.P. Merrill (1913). Historical note, O.E. Monnig (1939)... Somebody asked for referrences on meteorite collecting by early American cultures (Maybe Ed). Here's one about Hopewell meteorite collecting, except it goes on to discuss dozens of other cultures, locales, and meteorites including Casa Grandes. It's a nice piece of work by Olaf Prufer: https://kb.osu.edu/dspace/bitstream/1811/4817/1/V61N06_341.pdf No surprize, H. H. Nininger wrote METEORITE COLLECTING AMONG ANCIENT AMERICANS in 1938. That paper can be found at: http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0002-7316(193807)4%3A1%3C39%3AMCAAA%3E2.0.CO%3B2-W but it's where no mere mortal without official access can view it... You can read the first page, though, which is enough to see that it covers much the same ground as the paper previously cited (up above this one) which you can get to see (and download). Handing the thread back to you, Doug. Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: MexicoDoug [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Martin Altmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 4:03 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II Whe, Martin, thanks for the kind comments -- I re-read my post, your words and by all means did take one comment very much to heart. I'm guilty as charged for not giving further consideration to other meteoritically interested cultures between those Germanic and ancients. I think Ed would be the better expert in that department on this side of the Atlantic. You speak of the Aztecs as a culture with as rich of a treatment of things meteoritic as the medieval traditions in your lands... I'd like to know more about that. I'd be interested in knowing what meteorites the Aztecs venerated, feared, deified, or imbued with magical qualities. Are you perhaps thinking of Xocotl the Aztec god of fire and Dark and occult side of planet Venus? I think he was more likey born spewn from a volcano, of which there are many in his territory, or as legend goes, a ball of feathers fell in a temple his virgin mother then bore him and others. So Xocotl's mother may have been fertilized by a meteorite in a stretch of faith (the feathers could be thought of as cometary)...but these are much further musings than others I've made:-) Maybe your reference is meant to consider the over 1.5 ton Casas Grandes Iron meteorite mummy found in the ruins of the temple of a mysterious peoples of Mexico and carted out to Philadelphia, USA. I say mysterious peoples as I don't think you can call them Aztecs with certainty, and they may actually be somewhat Navajo. Unfortunately, the information on that culture is so scant, circumstantial and too inconclusive. But the Casas Grandes meteorite had fallen tens of thousands of years before that region was populated. Thus, at best, one can imagine that it was appreciated for its heft and unique nearly indestructable properties. The reason I'm not sure we can call that culture Aztec, is because the business end of the great Aztec empire was generally disconnected and geographically no where near the southern limits of that mysterious culture, to make tribute payments to the empire. In fact, it seems to just mysteroiusly vanished without battle before the Spanish first appeared anywhere on the scene. There is contentious speculaion that that particular culture was from northern New Mexico near Colorado, and Ed may be able to add more on that subject. It seems to me they were their own independent culture eventually centered in Paquimé, Chihuahua, very close to El Paso TX - Juarez MX, where the meteorite was dug up. Hopefully we can learn more, but anything new will be an uphill battle the way the evidence is so limited and thus dominated more by speculations. I am not aware of too much shared divinity evidence though a minimal amount is no doubt common
Re: [meteorite-list] Was: Meteorite novels -gifts II New Topicstitle- Meteorites and Archaeology
Hi, Dirk, Doug, List, That timeline is a great URL, a very detailed account of Dene history (and lots more); the source is from the documentation of one of the Dene lawsuits, so you know anything that could questioned by anybody was omitted. The earliest tree ring dates show the period 1350-1390 AD for settled structures. That implies an earlier entry into the area. Intruders, invaders, or new folk generally have to invade first, then settle; you don't build a house until you're secure in the area, so the intrusion date would be 1300-1350 AD. There was a major drought in the area in the years preceeding 1347 AD, at which time a number of major Pueblo communities were abandoned. By 1500, the Dene were settled in for a century or so. I know an anthropologist once who used to sing a song entitled, How Them Athabascan Bastards Made The Great Pueblos Fall, to the tune of The Wabash Cannonball. Like most made-up songs, it had a great many verses, few of which are printable in this forum. Wish I could remember them. Basic Rule of the 21st Century: you can find ANY THING you want on the Internet: http://archaeology.about.com/cs/entertainingarcha/a/athabastards.htm These verses are fairly sedate... And, completely off-topic, the analysis of Aztec history and politics on that timeline URL is brilliant. The Aztec homeland was supposedly in the nothern area, but since the Aztecs burned and re-wrote their own history for propaganda value, little is certain. A good source on Casas Grandes is: http://www.desertusa.com/ind1/ind_new/ind13.html No mention of the meteorite, though. Another good referrence that you can't get to: The Worship and Folk-Lore of Meteorites, by Farrington (1900): http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0021-8715(190007%2F09)13%3A50%3C199%3ATWAFOM%3E2.0.CO%3B2-3 No URL, Doug, just the referrence: MONNIG O.E. (1939): HOW THE CASAS GRANDES, CHIHUAHUA, MEXICO, METEORITE GOT TO WASHINGTON D.C., Popular Astron. 47, pp. 152-154. Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: drtanuki [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: MexicoDoug [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 12:21 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Was: Meteorite novels -gifts II New Topicstitle- Meteorites and Archaeology Dear Doug, You mentioned the Navajo. The Dene (Navajo) didn`t arrive New Mexico and the American Southwest until around 1500AD; and it has been proposed that the demise of the Puebloan (Casas Grande) culture MAY have been contributed to by their arrival. http://www.lapahie.com/Timeline_to_1491.cfm Casas Grande pre-dates their arrival. You may do a Web search for more information beyond this link: http://whc.unesco.org/pg.cfm?cid=31id_site=560 Best, Dirk...Tokyo __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BRight Green Fireball..North GA.
Hi, Astronomers believe a 10-mile-wide meteor that hit Mexico caused the extinction of the dinosaurs, Byrd said. Corley said he saw the event from his home. To quote the ancient SCTV parody show, Them dinosaurs blowed up GOOD! Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: Chris Peterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 5:37 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BRight Green Fireball..North GA. It's very unlikely it was under the clouds. It is fairly common for fireballs to shine through clouds, however, and they are usually perceived as below even though they are miles above. This effect has been caught on videos. No shortage of technical errors in the referenced article, either (what's new?). I particularly liked this interesting construction: Astronomers believe a 10-mile-wide meteor that hit Mexico caused the extinction of the dinosaurs, Byrd said. Corley said he saw the event from his home. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: kevin decker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 4:21 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] BRight Green Fireball..North GA. A few of the guys at work were talking about an event that happened over Chickamauga Ga,Last evening,they saw A bright green fireball.It went horizon to horizon,under the cloud cover we had.and still have here.I didn't see it,but heres a report on it.http://www.decaturdaily.com/decaturdaily/news/061129/light.shtml __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] What else do you collect?
Hi, 1.) Vintage and handmade acoustic guitars. At the last census, the population figure was 52, a diverse society which includes guitars made entirely of metal and guitars made entirely of banjo (a few). Happiest to have found a good home is the personal guitar of the late George Rose, who played (in the day) with Louis Armstrong, Bix Beiderbecke, Benny Goodman, and lots of other cats. 2.) 16-, 32-, and 64-bit (1986-1995) Atari computers (14), software and devices (tons), 1600 floppy discs and ~100 old small hard drives. (What do you do with YOUR basement?) I was an Atari software developer for ten years; that's how The Atari Museum started. 3.) Books, books, books. Can't count that high. Maybe 4,000; maybe double that. Oldest book by publication: from 1620. Started saving books when I was seven. Lots of sub-sub-collections in there. Some would say too many. 4.) Junk of all kinds. I was also an antique dealer for ten years and always snatching up the odd find: silver, furniture, china, glass, old scientific equipment, Japanese art... OK, let's face it -- I'm not a collector, just a packrat. I even sold meteorites (NWA 267) in my antique store (what's older than that?) Having just read Bill's recent post, all I can ask is: where were you when I was selling antiques? You sound like a one-man customer base! At one time or another, I have sold every item on that list of yours. 5.) Meteorites and tektites, of course... Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: Gary K. Foote [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 6:11 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] What else do you collect? As a neophyte collector of meteorites I have amassed about $1K in specimens, all of which I cherish dearly. I am learning about preservation as some of my specimens are beginning to show signs of scaling, kamacite ooze and other such degradations. Interestingly enough, along the way I've also become interested in terrestrial rocks, fossils, impactites and the like. I was just wondering; What else does everyone collect? Gary __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Lunar Leonid Strikes
Hi, List, Our best models of the lunar meteoroid environment predict a much lower rate - only 25% of what we are actually seeing. The problem may be with the computer models: They're based on observations of meteors in the skies of Earth, and those data may not translate well to the Moon. Replace the phrase those data may not translate well to the Moon with the phrase those data are flawed and worthless. The standard data is still the MORP figure of 23,800 meteors (between 10 and 1000 grams) per year. Back in 2000, I posted to the List a new methodology for calculating the flux of rocks, with four different ways of applying it, and all of them produced an extimated spacerock flux of 3 to 4 times the MORP figure, or 80,000 to 100,000 rocks per annum. Giving credit: In the ensuing discussion, Rob Matson also estimated a high flux (from ground studies, I believe) and suggested that 100,000 to 120,000 was more likely. Getting my shave from Mr. Occam, the simplest explanation of the observation of four times as many meteoroids hitting the Moon as is predicted by bad data from the Earth is that the data from Earth is dead wrong and that there ARE four times as many meteoroids (at least) than the bad data says. I say at least because there is no reason to think these observations (nor any observations) have a 100% perfect data recovery rate (MORP obviously did not), so the likely rate is 4+ more than the 23,800 figure, or north of 100,000. And please don't think I'm just bad-mouthing the MORP project of long ago, a pioneering effort whose results have stood because few carried on that kind of search and research as they should have. The question is why would their optically determined rate have been so fractional of the reality? I'm just starting to think about that. More dark (or slow) objects? More small objects? More objects from less detectable directions? A different time distribution than they assumed? Poorer detection limits? every 4 hours they observe the Moon, they see one bright flash caused by the impact of a large meteoroid... They don't say HOW large but at normal impact speeds (Leonids are faster) that would have to be a 100 gram rock and probably bigger. The four hour figure for the Moon would translate to a big rock rate for the Earth of 40,000 big rocks per year. (The range of sizes in the rate figure of 100,000+ is from 10 to 1000 gram.) Assuming a power law distribution for 10 to 1000 grams, the total would be: 100-1000 gram rocks = 40,000 and 10 to 100 gram rocks = 125,000, for a total flux of 165,000 spacerocks per year for the Earth. (If by large they mean 60 gram and up, the rate would be about 125,000.) One more chunk of evidence to a picture that all adds up to a greater space rock flux for Earth than is generally believed. Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: Ron Baalke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite Mailing List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 1:10 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Lunar Leonid Strikes http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2006/01dec_lunarleonid.htm Lunar Leonid Strikes NASA Science News December 1, 2006 Dec. 1, 2006: Meteoroids are smashing into the Moon a lot more often than anyone expected. That's the tentative conclusion of Bill Cooke, head of NASA's Meteoroid Environment Office, after his team observed two Leonids hitting the Moon on Nov. 17, 2006. We've now seen 11 and possibly 12 lunar impacts since we started monitoring the Moon one year ago, says Cooke. That's about four times more hits than our computer models predicted. If correct, this conclusion could influence planning for future moon missions. But first, the Leonids: Last month, Earth passed through a minefield of debris from Comet 55P/Tempel-Tuttle. This happens every year in mid-November and results in the annual Leonid meteor shower. From Nov. 17th to Nov. 19th both Earth and the Moon were peppered with meteoroids. Meteoroids that hit Earth disintegrate harmlessly (and beautifully) in the atmosphere. But the Moon has no atmosphere to protect it, so meteoroids don't stop in the sky. They hit the ground. The vast majority of these meteoroids are dust-sized, and their impacts are hardly felt. But bigger debris can gouge a crater in the lunar surface and explode in a flash of heat and light. Some flashes can be seen from Earth. During the passage through Tempel-Tuttle's debris field, Cooke's team trained their telescopes (two 14-inch reflectors located at the Marshall Space Flight Center) on the dark surface of the Moon. On Nov. 17th, after less than four hours of watching, they video-recorded two impacts: a 9th magnitude flash in Oceanus Procellarum (the Ocean of Storms) and a brighter 8th magnitude flash in the lunar highlands near crater Gauss. The flashes we saw were caused
Re: [meteorite-list] Info needed
Hi, Le Lion The first item on your list is ADMIRE, a pallasite (a mass of 12 to 15lb [5.4 to 6.8kg] was ploughed up in 1881, and other masses later) in LYON COUNTY, KANSAS in 1881. Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: M come Meteorite Meteorites [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2006 3:47 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] Info needed hello In a italian museum collection I have found 3 meteorites with strange names and locality not found on catalogue, is: Lionle County - Found 1881, Kansas, USA. Iron. Muana Poglica - South Africa. Chondrite Sierra Leon - Iron I have the photos of the first 2 Lionle County http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/8945/lionlecountyst5.jpg Muana Poglica http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/6839/muanaan2.jpg in another museum I have found this meteorite without any info, the crust is complete and fresh, and the face broken show this matrix green color with metal and grey condrules http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/6710/1mu1.jpg any idea what is it? Matteo M come Meteorite - Matteo Chinellato Via Triestina 126/A - 30173 - TESSERA, VENEZIA, ITALY Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sale Site: http://www.mcomemeteorite.it Collection Site: http://www.mcomemeteorite.info MSN Messanger: spacerocks at hotmail.com EBAY.COM:http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/mcomemeteorite/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Poco spazio e tanto spam? Yahoo! Mail ti protegge dallo spam e ti da tanto spazio gratuito per i tuoi file e i messaggi http://mail.yahoo.it __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Ferro Meteorico Lionle Co Kansas L. 70
Hi, Matteo, Bernd, List After being referred to another UP address, I couldn't get the image to display, so was deprived of a look at the picture. I guessed on the basis of the date and the transliteration of lyon and lion. Now, we have meteorite heraldry: lion couchant, a curious scientific description even for the 1890's! Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2006 12:58 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Ferro Meteorico Lionle Co Kansas L. 70 Hello Matteo, Sterling and List, Last February I, too, thought and wrote this might be the ADMIRE pallasite because of the find date. But the picture clearly shows that this meteorite is an iron and not a pallasite. The etch pattern seems to be that of a IIIAB iron and this narrows my speculations down to the Tonganoxie IIIAB iron which was found in Leavenworth County in, well, 1886 :-( But, look what I've unearthed :-) BUCHWALD V.F. (1975) Handbook of Iron Meteorites, Volume 3, p. 1224: According to Snow (1891) and Bailey (1891), the mass was irregular of shape, resembling a lion couchant (sleeping lion), and measuring 24 x 16 x 9 cm. So, maybe the meteorite in question is Tonganoxie and the date of find was erroneously given as that of the Admire pallasite. Best wishes, Bernd __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 2140 smells like gum?
Hi, Bob Haag reported that one fresh Murchison kept in a mason jar from immediately after the fall smelled very strongly and aromatically like fresh bubble gum! (This was, I believe, only a week or two after the fall.) Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: Mike Bandli [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Meteorite Mailing List' meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 5:14 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] NWA 2140 smells like gum? I received two slices of this CV3 meteorite and noticed they smell like fruity gum. It's very weak but definitely noticeable. Yes.I smell all my meteorites when I get them.it can't be that strange of a ritual. Anyone else out there with NWA 2140 notice this? Or did my dealer happen to be wearing his wife's Bath 'N Body Works hand lotion when he packed my slices. I remember some other C meteorite having similar scent, no? Kind regards, Mike Bandli __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 2140 smells like gum?
Hi, Walter, List, Norton's Rocks From Space, 2nd. Edition, p. 294, but what he actually says is it smelled like a bottle of fine wine, probably not the same as bubblegum... So, I can't remember which was the bubblegum meteorite. Parneallee is said to smell like organic solvent. Johnstown (Colorado) smelled like alcohol. The Tagish Lake recovery log quotes one witness as saying He went outside and saw the sunlit debris cloud. About one min later he noted a strange almost indescribable smell which lasted 45 minutes. Smell was very pungent, sort of a burning or acrid smell. Other witnesses described a kerosene, sulphur, or metallic smell, and one said like a match had just been struck. The only other amusement in the Tagish Lake official recovery log is the description of specimen HG-04: Not a meteorite -- dung. The recovery log does not note what it smelled like. Perhaps it was Orgueil (The Sweet Smell of Orgueil, Meteorite, Feb. '03). Google has failed. We'll probably have to rely on Bernd to solve this one, too. Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: Walter Branch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Mike Bandli [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Meteorite Mailing List' meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 7:18 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 2140 smells like gum? Murchison? Bubble gum? Asphalt maybe, but bubble gum? Are your sure it was bubble gum? -Walter - Original Message - From: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mike Bandli [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Meteorite Mailing List' meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 8:02 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 2140 smells like gum? Hi, Bob Haag reported that one fresh Murchison kept in a mason jar from immediately after the fall smelled very strongly and aromatically like fresh bubble gum! (This was, I believe, only a week or two after the fall.) Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: Mike Bandli [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Meteorite Mailing List' meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 5:14 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] NWA 2140 smells like gum? I received two slices of this CV3 meteorite and noticed they smell like fruity gum. It's very weak but definitely noticeable. Yes.I smell all my meteorites when I get them.it can't be that strange of a ritual. Anyone else out there with NWA 2140 notice this? Or did my dealer happen to be wearing his wife's Bath 'N Body Works hand lotion when he packed my slices. I remember some other C meteorite having similar scent, no? Kind regards, Mike Bandli __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite-list Digest, Vol 36, Issue 28
Hi, Visual, Chris, List For the benefit of Listees following the question of how slow a meteoroid can be... The orbital velocity for any body is maximally the escape velocity divided by the square root of 2, or 70.707070707...%. Can we just call that 71%? Escape velocity is 11,263.04 meters per second. So, the highest orbital velocity is 7964.17 meters per second. That's the orbital velocity at the lowest possible orbit, skimming over the surface. The orbital velocity gets less and less the higher the orbit, so that geo- synchronous orbital velocity is positively pokey, around 3000 meters per second. You have to go faster than that just to get there, then slow down to stay there. Crazy stuff, that gravity. The only orbit that can decay is one close enough to the top of the atmosphere to be slowed into re-entry. But (big but), the only way an object from somewhere not of this earth can get to the top of our atmosphere is to fall there, in the course of which fall, it will acquire additional velocity, up to escape velocity. Escape velocity is like taxes, in that there just doesn't seem to be any way to wiggle out. By the time an object gets to the top of the atmosphere, it will have acquired all of escape velocity except that which it would (try to) pick up in the last 50 miles. By even the Earth's escape velocity of 22,263 mps is quite slow compared to the approach of most meteoroids. Leonids are among the fastest (70,000 mps) in approach velocity (theirs and ours). Most objects from the asteroid zone are going to intercept Earth at twice our escape velocity or more. The slow fireball is a rarity, but the one most likely to get something to the ground. The statistics of meteorites (on the ground) are misleading: irons are much rarer than their proportion on our collections. It's just that they can withstand re-entry so much better than rocks and that they can persist longer in an Earth environment than mere rocks do. In re-entry, irons are better than rocks; slow rocks are better than fast ones; big rocks are better than little ones. A meteorite in the hand is better than 1000 in freefall. Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: Chris Peterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 5:48 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite-list Digest, Vol 36, Issue 28 Objects in orbit around the Earth reenter close to Earth's escape velocity, which sets the lower limit for anything entering our atmosphere (the upper limit is set by the escape velocity of the Sun at the Earth- it's unlikely that anything we encounter would be faster than that). And for the most part, as you note, reentering objects are usually in flat trajectories, so they burn much longer, and are likely to slow down enough to stop burning before vaporizing. The Air Force has a group whose mission is to recover fallen junk. I'm not sure what you mean by close to the ground- anything you saw was probably more than 20 miles high, with 50 being more likely. There's no way to tell by eye how high a fireball actually is. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 12:17 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite-list Digest, Vol 36, Issue 28 I'm guessing that 'space junk' is slower because it was in orbit, and as the orbit decayed it entered the atmosphere as a shallow angle. Then, as the atmosphere grew thicker, it slowed gradually. All of the green fireballs I've seen during my years of hiking and camping out west were close to the ground. The much smaller and more numerous ones further away always appeared white. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite-list Digest, Vol 36, Issue 28
Hi, All, Chris said: I don't know if anybody has worked out the likelihood of that happening- very, very rare... I called my oddsmaker in Vegas (or was it Vega), and here's what he said... The problem is essentially the same as the likelihood of being smacked by a one-time long period comet; it falls in from the back of nowhere , slingshots around the Sun, and zaps back out. It's completely random; it could come from any direction -- the Oort Cloud is a sphere. So, imagine that the radius of the orbit of the Earth defines an inner sphere surrounding the Sun, through which the object will have to pass in order to swing around the Sun and back out. The surface area of that sphere is about two billion times the cross section of the Earth itself, so the odds of being hit by the incoming comet is one in two billion, and the odds of being hit by the outgoing comet is one in two billion. Overall, the odds are about one in a billion for both coming and going. There is a good sized (10 kilometer diameter and up)* long period comet almost every year, so we will get comet-whacked every billion years or so. [* Comet Hale-Bopp was 40 MILES in diameter.] On average... Little long period comets (1 kilometer to 10 kilometers diameter) are 5-10 times more common, so expect a medium comet whack every (couple of) 100,000,000 years or so. Of course, being gob-smacked by a long period comet is just about the worst. I hate when that happens. The comet is going at the solar system escape velocity (almost); the Earth is going at its orbital velocity. What the vector total of those two? Answer: Too much. The kinetic energy goes up by the square of the velocity, so maybe 4 to 6 times the energy of the impact of an asteroid of the same mass. That's going to leave a mark, as they say. Just to prove that the Universe isn't a sporting proposition, a long period comet coming from the Oort Cloud isn't likely to brighten enough to be detected by visual comet finders until it's near the orbit of Jupiter, which would give us about 2-3 weeks of warning of an incoming encounter -- hardly enough time to get drunk, have a last fling, and say your prayers. Of an outgoing encounter, we'd have 4-5 weeks of warning time. That's some improvement but not much. Not, for example, enough time to move several billion people to the side of the planet away from the impact point. Hmm. How many frequent flyer miles you got? You feel like a long vacation? Of course, if the comet was just from Far Kuiper County, with a period of 3000-4000 years, we'd have months (instead of weeks) to get ready. You'll be ready in 4-5 months, won't you? Since the Leonids are retrograde and the Earth prograde, the encounter velocity is the vector sum of the two, but the angle of incidence between the Earth and the Leonid stream varies from year to year; when it's 180 degrees, or face-on, the encounter velocity is the oft-quoted 71,000+ mps. At lesser angles, it's somewhat less but still hefty. Nice that they're mostly just pea gravel and sand sized bits; very pretty and they don't leave marks. Sterling K. Webb --- http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1997neo..conf...67W The long-period comets pose a unique problem for the impact hazard problem. Because of their very long orbital periods and generally large distances from the Sun, they cannot be surveyed and catalogued in the same manner as the near-Earth asteroids and short-period comets. They appear at random, uniformly distributed on the celestial sphere. Current technologies can detect long-period comets at distances of approx. 5 AU, giving somewhat less than a one year warning time for potential Earth impactors. The mean impact probability for a long-period comet crossing the Earth's orbit is 2.2 to 2.5 x 10-9 per perihelion passage. The mean impact velocity is approximately 52 km sec-1 but the most probable impact energy is characterized by a velocity of 56 to 58 km/sec. The estimated current impact rate for cometary nuclei large enough to create 10 km diameter (or larger) craters on the Earth is between 5 x 10-7 and 2.8 x 10-6 per year, with a bed estimated value of 1.0 x 10-6 per year. Nuclei large enough to initiate global climatic disturbances strike the Earth on average every 16 Myr. The impact frequency may be increased substantially for brief periods of time during cometary showers, initiated by major perturbations of the Oort cloud. Improved technologies are needed to detect approaching long-period comets at large heliocentric distances so as to increase the warning time for potential impactors. - Original Message - From: Chris Peterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 12:02 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite-list Digest, Vol 36, Issue 28
Hi, Ed said: Think of it as the ultimate test of human intelligence. Will we pass? I don't know. In 1752, another author, Voltaire, wrote a story about a giant alien tourist from Sirius, Micromegas, and his companion from Saturn, who tour the solar system and visit the Earth. The Saturnian believes that the Earth cannot be inhabited: In truth, what chiefly makes me think there is no inhabitant of this sphere, is that I cannot suppose any sensible being would wish to live here. Well, said Micromegas, perhaps the beings who inhabit it do not possess good sense. Sterling K. Webb -- Text of Micromegas: http://wondersmith.com/scifi/micro.htm -- - Original Message - From: E.P. Grondine [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 8:29 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite-list Digest, Vol 36, Issue 28 Hi all - I just wrote a book on man and impact. It's called Man and Impact in the Americas, and it's available through amazon. I'm tired now, so I'll keep this short. The experts numbers for impact appear to be off by about factor of ten, in the impactors' favor, not man's. Over the last 6,000,000 years, we've come close to extinction several times. Impact rate estimates have been crippled for about 30 years, largely due to confusion spread by Dr. David Morrison over the role of comets in impact. While Morrison did pioneer ground breaking work with Shoemaker some years back, since then his use of the power he gained from that work has been to the detriment of the field, and the detriment of us all. We can deal with this now, with the technologies we have in hand, but only if we make a concerted effort. Think of it as the ultimate test of human intelligence. Will we pass? I don't know. I'm going to get some more coffee and cigarettes. good hunting, Ed __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Week-Long Meteor Shower to Dazzle (Geminids)
Hi, Nice timing, since we've been talking about chunks of comet: A final point to note are that Geminids stand apart from the other meteor showers in that they seem to have been spawned not by a comet, but by 3200 Phaeton, an Earth-crossing asteroid. Then again, the Geminids may be comet debris after all, for some astronomers consider Phaeton to really be the dead nucleus of a burned-out comet that somehow got trapped into an unusually tight orbit. Discovered in 1983, Phaethon is 5100 meters in diameter and weighs in at 140,000,000 metric tons. It has a very dark surface and a density (vaguely) calculated at twice that of water. Despite being in a cometary orbit and being the parent body of a meteor stream in the same orbit, it has never shown any coma, dust, or gas outbursts. Dead comet? Asteroid? Or can we be sure there's really any difference? Yet? Phaethon approaches the Sun closer than any other numbered asteroid; its perihelion is only 0.140 AU, 58% of Mercury's orbital radius. The surface temperature at perihelion could reach ~1025 K. Obviously, it's not a ball of ice. If you plan on hanging around until 2093, it will closely approach the Earth, passing within 0.0198 AU, on December 14 of that year. Only a week and 87 years to go. 3200 Phaethon is one of the objects that fit unto a pattern of a past breakup of a Comet Encke parent body, based on its orbital properties, an admittedly controversial idea (but a good one). The asteroid 3200 Phaethon was discovered as an asteroid, confirmed, plotted, and published, before Fred (Mr. Comet) Whipple pointed out that its orbit was identical with that of the Geminids. Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: Ron Baalke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite Mailing List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 1:46 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Week-Long Meteor Shower to Dazzle (Geminids) http://www.space.com/spacewatch/061208_night_sky.html Week-Long Meteor Shower to Dazzle By Joe Rao SPACE.com 08 December 2006 The annual Geminid meteor shower is expected to produce a reliable shooting star show that will get going Sunday and peak the middle of next week. The Geminid event is known for producing one or two meteors every minute during the peak for viewers with dark skies willing to brave chilly nights. If the Geminid Meteor Shower occurred during a warmer month, it would be as familiar to most people as the famous August Perseids. Indeed, a night all snuggled-up in a sleeping bag under the stars is an attractive proposition in summer. But it's hard to imagine anything more bone chilling than lying on the ground in mid-December for several hours at night. But if you are willing to bundle up, late next Wednesday night into early Thursday morning will be when the Geminids are predicted to be at their peak. Most satisfying shower The Geminids are a very fine winter shower, and usually the most satisfying of all the annual showers, even surpassing the Perseids. Studies of past displays show that this shower has a reputation for being rich both in slow, bright, graceful meteors and fireballs as well as faint meteors, with relatively fewer objects of medium brightness. Many appear yellowish in hue. Some even appear to form jagged or divided paths. Unfortunately, as was the case this year with its summertime counterpart, this year's December Geminids will be hindered somewhat by moonlight, although to a much lesser degree than the brilliant gibbous Moon that wreaked havoc with the Perseids. On Thursday morning, the Moon - a fat waning crescent, two days past last quarter - will come up over the east-southeast horizon by 1:30 a.m. for most locations and will light up the sky in its general vicinity through the rest of the overnight hours. On Friday morning, the Moon will come up about an hour later and will be less of a factor for meteor watching. Where to look These medium speed meteors appear to emanate from near the bright star Castor, in the constellation of Gemini, the Twins, hence the name Geminid. The track of each one does not necessarily begin near Castor, nor even in the constellation Gemini, but it always turns out that the path of a Geminid extended backward passes through a tiny region of sky about 0.2-degree in diameter (an effect of perspective). In apparent size, that's less than half the width of the Moon. As such, this is a rather sharply defined radiant as most meteor showers go; suggesting the stream is young - perhaps only several thousand years old. Generally speaking, depending on your location, Castor begins to come up above the east-northeast horizon right around the time evening twilight is coming to an end [sky map http://www.space.com/php/multimedia/imagedisplay/img_display.php?pic=061208_geminds_02.jpgcap=Sky+Map%3A
Re: [meteorite-list] Future Dimming for Arecibo Telescope (Asteroid99942 Apophis)
Hi, Jeff, List, This Week's Award for the Best Did-Anyone-Remember-To-Close- The-Hatch-On-The-Spacecraft-Before- We-Took-Off? post goes to Jeff. Good work. I can only repeat: Well, said Micromegas, perhaps the beings who inhabit it do not possess good sense. Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: Jeff Kuyken [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Ron Baalke [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Meteorite Mailing List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 12:35 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Future Dimming for Arecibo Telescope (Asteroid99942 Apophis) Hi Ron all, Below: The telescope is so prized that astronomers let out a collective shudder in November when a review panel recommended the U.S. cut 25 percent of the observatory's $10.5 million astronomy budget next year and consider eliminating it entirely at the end of the decade. From the post on Monday: [meteorite-list] The Threat is Out There (Asteroid 99942 Apophis) http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/meteorite-list/2006-December/028906.html NASA, however, is taking a wait-and-see attitude. An analysis by Steven Chesley of the Near Earth Object program at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) in Pasadena, Calif., concludes that we can safely sit tight until 2013. That's when Apophis swings by Earth in prime position for tracking by the 1000-ft.-dia. radio telescope in Arecibo, Puerto Rico. Mmm! Cheers, Jeff __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Effects of travel through space on comets?
Hi, Space is not empty, E.P. But as for sheer drag, the solar system is nowhere near gassy or dusty enough for drag to be a factor, even in the very long term (as far as I know). Dust and the solar wind is the chief occupant of the empty vacuum here in the solar system, hence a comet's ionized gas tail always points away from the Sun because the solar wind is charged particles mostly. Dust is more influenced by the pressure of light. The smaller the particle, the greater its surface area for the mass, so smaller particles get a greater momentum. Of course, a debris stream in an eccentric orbit around the Sun encounters them both at always varying angles, depending on the eccentricity and where the particles are in the orbit. Debris streams do get sorted by particle size. Because of the variations, the sorting force is always shifting. If you had a stream in a circular orbit, the sort would be more neat and precise, moving the smaller particles to the outside edge of the stream and leaving the larger pieces at the inner edge. Then, if the debris particles are rotating, there's the Yarkovsky Effect. They would rotate, I'm sure, but it's too late at night for me to explain the Yarkovsky Effect, so try this: http://astroprofspage.com/archives/380 All these sorting effects are responsible for the density variations in debris streams that make for spectacular meteor showers or duds. If there are effects from dust, it's more likely the effect of eroding minutely the particles in the stream from its impact, thus producing more debris. The inner solar system, though not dusty enough for drag, is more dusty than you might think. So dusty that we can see the Sun's light reflected off of it: the Zodiacal Light. Comets and asteroids are the source of the billions (trillions?) of tons of dust in the Ecliptic Plane. The force of light would be enough to disperse all this dust in less than 50,000 years, by means of the Poynting-Robertson Effect, and no, I'm too tired to explain that either, so the dust must be continually re-supplied to the inner solar system by the breakup of comets and asteroids. IF we knew exactly how much the Zodiacal dust weighed, we could figure out how much dust is delivered to the inner solar system per year, century, millennium, eon... But, the estimates are uncertain and variable. And, of course, we have no way of knowing if the Zodiacal dust of today is greater or lesser than the dust of other eras. http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1983MP28..305M The zodiacal dust cloud's mass loss rate, which is an important factor in the consideration of its steady state, has in the past been indirectly estimated on the basis of the inward mass flux of interplanetary grains at 1 AU. The rate is presently investigated on the basis of direct calculations of the orbital behavior of circumsolar dust grains undergoing sublimation. It is found that the solar dust ring located at 4 solar radii from the sun, which consists of grains whose Poynting-Robertson effect inward spiraling is stopped by the influence of sublimation, loses its mass at a rate of 0.35-3.5 tons/sec. That high figure works out to 5.5 trillion tons for the entire mass of the Zodiacal dust; the low figure to 1/10th of that. That's the delivery of 110,451,600 tons of recent local dust to the inner system per year. Since this production of dust would be mostly from the breakup of comets and asteroids (slow or fast breakups), that would be a good datum to have a handle on, if you're concerned about the fate of small bodies in the inner system. Read all about our native dust resources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interplanetary_dust_cloud Dust is a hot topic: Indeed, one of the longest- standing controversies debated in the interplanetary dust community revolves around the relative contributions to the interplanetary dust cloud from asteroid collisions and cometary activity. That 1 hydrogen atom per cubic meter is the figure for normal interstellar space, outside the solar system. You just can't get a decent vacuum anywhere these days. Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: E.P. Grondine [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 9:38 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Effects of travel through space on comets? Hi all - I was just wondering if any of you have given any thought to this - While we generally think of space as a vacuum, in fact it is not. There are dust particles (some of them chonrdules?), and if I remember correctly, about 1 molecule of hydrogen per cubic meter - Now at normal speeds, this would be a vacuum. But comets don't travel at normal speeds. I am reminded of the swimmer who dives from too high a height - the water becomes awful hard. I wonder if drag might change a comet's debris stream, putting larger pieces
Re: [meteorite-list] Turkish Scientists in Search for 14th CenturyMeteorite
that the Sun must be a huge ball of burning hot iron 35 miles in diameter about 4000 miles away. Yeah, yeah, but where did the wagon-sized meteorite get to? Well, it seems that in 405 B.C., Lysander won his great victory over the Althenian fleet at Aegospotami in Thrace, and Plutarch writes, in his life of Lysander, that a stone which fell from the heavens a short time before the battle was regarded by many as a portent predicting the dreadful slaughter that was to ensue. At the time Plutarch wrote (circa 150 A.D.) this stone could still be seen at Aegospotami, where it was regarded with great veneration by the Chersonites. [The Greek philosopher Anaxagorus is said to have predicted the fall of this meteorite, but as Anaxagorus died in 428 B.C., his prediction must have long antedated the fall of the meteorite. And indeed, it seems the predictor was not Anaxagorus]: A detail given in one of the early recitals might possibly have constituted the basis of a prediction by some contemporary physicist. In the latter part of his account of the phenomenon, Plutarch quotes from a Treatise on Religion, by a certain Daimachus, to the effect that, for seventy-five days before the fall of the meteorite, a vast fiery body was seen in the heavens, in appearance 'like a flaming cloud.' This well describes the appearance of a great comet, and might be regarded as significant... Of this meteoric mass said to have fallen at Aegospotami, Pliny states that it was as large as a wagon and of a dusky hue, adding that a brilliant comet was visible at the time of its fall... A portion of the stone was preserved as a venerated relic in the town of Potidaea. If so, it's gone now. Aristotle, who had written that this stuff about rocks falling from the heavens was just supertitious nonsense and that if rocks DID fall from the sky, they had merely been picked up by a strong wind and tossed there, was severely embarassed by the Aegospotami fall, since it was a big as wagon and much, much heavier! Why, then, don't wagons fall out of the sky on a regular basis? There is such a thing as too much common sense... The site of the city of Seleucia is said to have been determined by the fall of an aerolite, and this stone is figured on some of the coins of the Seleucidae, a thunderbolt appearing in its stead on other coins. In the Temple of Diana, at Ephesus, there was a stone partly fashioned into the conventional form of the Ephesian Diana. This, it was asserted, had fallen down from the Heavens. The stone is mentioned in the Acts of the Apostles (xix. 35), where we read that the city of the Ephesians was a worshipper of the great goddess Diana, ... the image of which fell down from Jupiter. In this text the word 'image' has been supplied by the translators, a more literal rendering being 'that which fell down from the sky.' This clearly shows that the stone only faintly indicated the human form. Tacitus says of the stone sacred to the Astarte (or Aphrodite) of Paphos, that it was a symbol of the goddess, not a human effigy, since it was an obscurely formed cone. In his life of Apollonius of Tyana, Philostratus, also, mentions this stone and tells us that when Apollonius visited Paphos, he admired there 'the famous symbolic figure of Aphrodite.' These 'living stones' were often covered with ornaments and vestments, and it has been conjectured that these adornments were, in some cases, changed so as to accrod with the garments appropriate to certain special festivals of the respective gods. The colossal emerald of the temple of Melkarth at Tyre is designated in the fragments of Sanchoniathon as a 'star fallen from heaven.' It was said to have been raised up by Astarte, and this last myth is represented on the silver coins of Marium in Cyprus. Could that emerald been green olivine? Every ancient culture seems to have had one. The now-lost Star Stone that marked the meeting corner of Leicestershire, Nottinghamshire and Lincolnshire in the UK was supposed to a meteorite, also a vanished stone at Grimston, Leicestershire, was also said to have such an origin. They're everywhere, it seems. If a nearby supernova sterilized the Earth, no doubt alien anthropologists would uncover many meteorite shrines in the homes of our List members, harder to explain than the meteorite shrines in our museums... Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 1:06 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Turkish Scientists in Search for 14th CenturyMeteorite Hello Ron and List, Batuta recalls in his memoir an Anatolian feudal lord speaking to the author about a rock that fell from the sky, a black- colored meteorite weighing about 80 kg, and witnesses' accounts about the body. Well, this is probably the Aidin stone (said to have fallen in the year 1340
Re: [meteorite-list] Tagish Lake
Hi, List, Here is a narrative of the Canadian recovery effort in the form of personal logs or diaries by the searchers and finders: http://aquarid.physics.uwo.ca/~pbrown/Videos/recovery_article.htm It details everything that all the recoverers did and when. You can judge the recovery effort for yourself. The fireball was Jan, 18. The meteorites on Tagish Lake were found by Jim Brook on Jan. 25. He picked up 17, about 1 kilo total, and freezer-bagged them and put them in his freezer. He lives in the area (very few do) and was given the bags and asked to look out for possible meteorites. He found them while driving his pickup truck across the frozen lake. On Jan. 27, a blizzard covered the lake and the meteorites. Brook took the meteorites to the Yukon Geoscience Office in Whitehorse and they called in Peter Brown, who called in Alan Hildebrandt. They identified them right away and started lining up money. On Feb. 15-27, the first recovery expedition went to Tagish. They interviewed every witness and collected photos and videos of the fall. They couldn't find any meteorites on the lake. McCausland and Plotkin, of the U. of Western Ontario carried out the second expedition, April 6-May 10. With favorable weather conditions, this expedition found some 410 meteorite sites in a strewnfield approximately 16 kilometers long by three kilometers wide, and managed to recover about 200 of these meteorites. That's a summary of the discovery. The URL contains a long and full personal account, each, by Brown, McCausland, and Plotkin in the URL given above. It is a very interesting meteorite story which I recommend as a good read. There's a lot to be learned from it. Log of the Recovery: Even though I stumbled across the Tagish Lake Recovery Log of every specimen while Googling, it was hard to find again. The original is a .doc file (for MSWord): http://meteoritics.org/Online%20Supplements/Hildebrand_online%20tables.doc Here's the Google cache, which is in HTML, which may be more accessible for some: http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:TuhAYNW3BYoJ:meteoritics.org/Online%2520Supplements/Hildebrand_online%2520tables.doc+HG-04+Not+a+meteorite+--+dunghl=engl=usct=clnkcd=2 This document has a complete record of every find, with remarks and description of each individual stone, and summarries of witness statements, also worth looking through. The incoming object was about 200,000 kilograms, 5 feet in diameter (if spherical), and it fragmented in a burst equal to 2000 to 3000 tons of TNT. Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: David Weir [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 2:47 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Tagish Lake But Michael, think of the potential value that the strewn field map may provide us someday (I know I'm not smart enough to imagine it). Maybe Richard and Roland could spell out for us the great importance of such a map. David Michael Farmer wrote: ... You can all forget about recovery of more Tagish Lake meteorites. The Canadians lost it all when they closed off the site to all but a few people, who took two months to make a neat little map of locations of pieces frozen into the ice, then lost them all when a fast thaw came along. Great job scientists, you lost 99% of the rarest meteorite fall on the planet because you wanted to keep it all secret and to yourselves __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] 2007 Peoples Choice Harvey Award Nominee
Bernd, Jahvol! Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: MARK BOSTICK [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 4:53 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] 2007 Peoples Choice Harvey Award Nominee I would humbly like to nominate list contributor Bernd Pauli for the 2007 People's Choice Harvey Award Nominee. Mark Bostick __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Got a pair of Grover Cleveland's to blow?
Hi, If you've got two Grover Clevelands, you may be in trouble: Notes above the $100 denomination ceased being printed in 1946 and were officially withdrawn from circulation in 1969. These notes were used primarily either in inter-bank transactions or by organized crime; it was the latter usage that prompted President Richard Nixon to issue an executive order in 1969 halting their use. You don't want Richard Nixon after you, do you? Or Lucca Brassi? Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: Martin Horejsi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: metlist meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 9:54 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Got a pair of Grover Cleveland's to blow? Get your minds out of the gutter! Gee wiz. Anyway I stumbled across this trio on ABE: http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/ListingDetails?bi=837549155cm_la=want Cheers, Martin ps: BTW, who is this Bernd that everyone speaks of? __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Weird pic...Apollo 14?
Hi, Kevin, List, Assuming you're talking about the blue streaks in the sky that are like UFO contrails, the note in the Image Library says of AS14-67-9384 (OF300): 117:25:32 View to the northeast of the Central Station and, at the left, the Passive Seismometer experiment. The blue streak at the upper left is undoubtedly a film defect. The Cone ridge is in the distance. When I saw the blue contrail, I thought it might even be an internal reflection in the lens (even though Hassy fans would be horrified at the suggestion), from the shiny pole on the foreground, perhaps. But they're probably right about it being a film defect. My guess is that it would be caused by a crease in the emulsion and carrier at those (very low) temperatures. The black area in the print is, of course, clear in the negative, so any defect would show up. Either that, or the pilots of the 8th Lunar UFO squadron were so careless as to engage their anti-proton afterburners within the sight of the Earthlings. Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: kevin decker To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:03 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Weird pic...Apollo 14 Hello,Anybody here care to help me figure out what's in this Photo in the Apollo 14 Archives?..I'm stumped..:http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a14/AS14-67-9384HR.jpg Thanks..Kevin...:) __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] OT: Festivus
Yes, but... Where's the aluminum pole, the clock, the odd poetry, and the unidentified ethnic music? Weary of the rampant consumerism of Christmas, Frank Costanza invented an alternative holiday with unusual traditions. The offbeat holiday struck a chord with many viewers... Festivus actually predates 'Seinfeld' by 2300 years. In the 3rd century B.C., Roman comic poet Plautus used the Latin word Festivus to refer to the wild celebrations attended by average citizens cutting loose on religious holidays. Despite this early debut of Festivus, the holiday did not appear again until 1966 when the father of Daniel O'Keefe, future 'Seinfeld' writer, crafted a unique family holiday with untraditional practices such as the wrestling of the household head to the ground. Keefe introduced the holiday into 'Seinfeld' lore in 1997, and a cult phenomenon was born. According to Keefe, the only tradition that was made up by the show's writers was the decorated Festivus pole - everything else was taken directly from his family celebrations. The best part is that Costanza created the holiday in opposition to the commercialism of the holidays, but a quick Google shows that most national Festivus celebrations are SALES sponsored by groups of merchants or individual businesses, 40% off, two days only... Ya can't get more Seinfeld than that. Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: Matson, Robert [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael L Blood [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:55 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] OT: Festivus Hi Michael, Hope everyone and their loved ones are having a great Christmas or Festivus, Michael Aha! Another Seinfeld fan! On this very list in the last 24 hours, two of the key Festivus activities have been exercised or planned: The Airing of Grievances and the Feats of Strength (e.g. Coliseum Duel). ;-) Happy Festivus to All, Rob __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Weird pic...Apollo 14
Hi, If you take a look at the thumbnails page for magazine 67: http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a14/Ap14_Mag67.jpg you will see everything is blue-lit. These guys are not professional photographers and the Moon is a hard place to shoot pictures of. In photo 9384, the Sun is just outside the frame. Look at 9382, it's all sun flare (also 9367, 9368, 9387, 9388, equally wasted). They tried shooting into the Sun (with lousy results); they tried shooting with the Sun behind them and got black shadows that stretched for yards and yards (low Sun angle). I now disagree with the official film defect explanation; the blue streaks in the sky are an internal reflection from the Sun which is just above and to the right of camera. The blue light (not a glow or halo) you note is nothing but the blue sunlight to be seen in every frame of that magazine. Remember, this is just an Earthly (and expensive) film camera of the 1960's, and the film used is just high grade 120 film just like you could buy for your camera, no CCD's, no narrowband filters, no software -- it's just a case of We're going to the Moon; grab the camera! The color temperature of the film used is not high enough for the raw sunlight of the Moon. I would suggest a Wratten 81 series filter is needed. I would recommend a strong 81 series filter, 81D or even the 81EF, the so-called mountain filter. Ever gone up high in the mountains, shot film, and when you got the photos back, everything was too blue? It's the film recording the UV light that you can't see; an 81EF will fix that. Imagine there's much more UV light on the Moon than on the Earth? (Well, yeah...) In photo 67-9384, they got a decent shot by shooting a scene that was mostly in shadow with increased exposure time (notice how dark the regolith is compared to the other shots). The longer exposure time is likely what allowed that faint internal reflection to be recorded. This sort of thing happens with film cameras all the time. You'll notice that it isn't a streak; it's two sets of multiple streaks, one brighter and one fainter. The fainter one is identical to the brighter one (at least in the parts we can make out) and at a slightly different angle. This is characteristic of internal reflections in a multi-element lens, with each element showing the reflection, although each element (because of differing refractivity) positions it differently. And lastly, the streaks are exactly one hue of blue, in varying intensity but all the same color, formed out of one narrow refracted hue, an optical defect, not an object. And it's exactly where a reflection would be cast by the low Sun. If we take the other tack, and say the blue streaks are real, we have the problem that they are diffuse. The camera is in focus out to infinity, so they would have to be diffuse object, more like a vapor or gasses, not a sharply defined dense physical object. If they were vapor reflecting sunlight they would have a bright spot or area since sunlight in a vacuum is not dispersed in all directions like it is inside an atmosphere; they don't have a specular refection, in other words. If it is a vapor, even one emitted by a moving object, it would have expanded in every direction instantly in a vacuum, regardless of motion or the lack of it. No way to form a streak or to hold it together. You may recall seeing the video of the ascent stage of the LM taking off, engines blazing. On Earth, in an atmosphere, the firing of a hypergolic fuel rocket would produce huge bright billowing clouds of exhaust. In the video, there is nothing to be seen, no light, no smoke, just an invisible rush of gas in every direction, like a unseen wind. Nothing is visible, except small objects on the ground blowing away. At any rate, I really don't think you got a hot interplanetary mystery here. Keep looking, though, and let me know if you discover signs of a town of cryoarthropods on the banks of a methane river on Titan. Just kidding about those cryoarthropods... mostly. Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: kevin decker To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:03 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Weird pic...Apollo 14 Hello,Anybody here care to help me figure out what's in this Photo in the Apollo 14 Archives?..I'm stumped..: http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a14/AS14-67-9384HR.jpg Thanks..Kevin...:) __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Weird pic...Apollo 14
. So, who's working on vacuum- indifferent, high-load machine lubricants of every type and function, with a 500-600 degree working range? Raise your hands... anybody? How about seals? Gaskets? Anybody? Or do we expect them to magically appear when we need them? (Bitch, bitch, bitch...) Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: E.P. Grondine [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 11:01 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Weird pic...Apollo 14 Hi all - When dealing with the man did not walk on the Moon nuts (and for these folks man did not walk on the Moon because either 1) they did not see the reamins of another civilization there, or 2) NASA was hiding the real astronauts, who did see the remains, by staging fake landings Ahem,as I was saying... When dealing with the man did not walk on the Moon nuts, I simply tell them that NASA lied to them about the flim used, and that it was really recon film which was loaded in the astronauts cameras. These folks usually readliy accept that NASA lied to them, and given the premise the consequence follows: man walked on the Moon. If questioned, I tell them to take a roll of kodachrome or ektachrome, put it in the referigerator, then put it in an oven, and see how it works. Then imagine doing it in a vacuum. If they're really stubborn, I ask them if they remember Kodak running any ads claiming that now you could buy the same film used on the Moon, like Tang. They don't, and end of arguement. good hunting, Ed __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Metal Object Crashes Through New Jersey Home
Hi, The Monmouth object doesn't look strikingly like an iron meteorite, but you can't rule it completely based on looks. Thankfully, they provide a scale, so a rough estimate of volume can be made. The weight is given as 13 ounces, or about 370 grams. Roughing up the volume on a cylinder of the diameter and length of the object shown, I get a density between 7 gm/cm^3 and 8 gm/cm^3, so it's likely iron. Whether it's extraterrestrial iron is another matter... But we can rule out an old lead sash weight, or a melted bronze bushing. Why do these dodoes always check sky-fallen objects for radioactivity? When was the last time a radioactive chunk of sky fell on them? (I assuming they didn't live in Canada when the Russian Cosmos reactor came down.) If there was a rain of toads, would they check them for radioactivity? If there was a rain of rain, would they check it for radioactivity? I wonder when and how the urban myth of checking meteorites for radioactivity got started? Call the cops! And tell'em to bring a geiger counter! Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: Ron Baalke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite Mailing List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 6:18 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Metal Object Crashes Through New Jersey Home http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1120AP_Fallen_Object.html Metal object crashes through N.J. home By CHRIS NEWMARKER ASSOCIATED PRESS January 3, 2007 [photo] A metal, rock-like object about the size of a golf ball is seen in this undated photograph provided by Det. R. Gelber of Freehold Township Police Department in Freehold Township, N.J., Wednesday, Jan. 3, 2007. Nobody was injured when the oblong object, weighing more than 13 ounces, crashed into the a Monmouth County home Tuesday night. Federal officials sent to the scene said it was not from an aircraft. (AP Photo/ Det. R. Gelber of Freehold township Police Department ) FREEHOLD TOWNSHIP, N.J. -- A metal, rock-like object about the size of a golf ball and weighing nearly as much as a can of soup crashed through the roof of a Monmouth County home, and authorities on Wednesday were trying to figure out what it was. Nobody was injured when the oblong object, weighing more than 13 ounces, crashed into the home and embedded itself in a wall Tuesday night. Federal officials sent to the scene said it was not from an aircraft. The rough-feeling object, with a metallic glint, was displayed Wednesday by police. There's some great interest in what we have here, said Lt. Robert Brightman. It's rather unusual. I haven't seen anything like it in my career. He said he hoped to have the object identified within 72 hours, but declined to name the other agencies whose help he said he had enlisted. Police received a call Wednesday morning that the metal object had punched a hole in the roof of a single-family, two-story home, damaged tiles on a bathroom floor below and then bounced, sticking into a wall. The object was heavier than a usual metal object of that size, said Brightman, who added that no radioactivity was detected. Brightman would not disclose the address of the house or the names of the people who lived there, citing the family's desire to not talk to the media. He would only say that the couple and their adult son live in a township housing development. Brightman said one man who lives at the home found the object at about 9 p.m. Tuesday after returning from work and hearing from his mother that something had crashed through the roof a few hours before. The Federal Aviation Administration, which sent investigators to the town, did not know where the object came from, said spokeswoman Arlene Murray. It's definitely not an aircraft part, she said. I can't speak beyond that as to what it might be. Approximately 20 to 50 rock-like objects fall every day over the entire planet, said Carlton Pryor, a professor of astronomy at Rutgers University. It's not all that uncommon to have rocks rain down from heaven, said Pryor, who had not seen the object that struck the Monmouth County home. These are usually rocky or a mixture of rock and metal. Pryor said laboratory tests would have to be conducted to determine if the object were a meteorite. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Dave Shiflett-- no fan of the brenham
Hi, As to what is on the minds of the hairdo's, er, I mean, the reporters, that's anybody's guess. Maybe a hint can be found in the little blurb on the KCET video site, where this segment is described: Adam Rogers finds a meteorite in Kansas. Is that the best description of the news story? Say, didn't that Arnold guy actually find those meteorites? Details, mere details... Where were those headlines in the 1940's that read: Edward R. Murrow finds Luftwaffe in Skies over London? Or Walter Cronkite Finds War in Vietnam? The story is supposed to be about the story, fellah. Editors? What editors? TV has only producers, not editors. Kudos to Steve and Geoff for their successful ju-jitsu in getting as much of the reality into the piece as they did. It's a performance skill, and they performed the job very well. Encore, encore. Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 1:11 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Dave Shiflett-- no fan of the brenham Dave and all, No, the big rock did not sell yet. And I am pretty sure the TV show that the story is supposed to be quoting did not state that it sold for a million dollars, only that it is worth about a million dollars. I just think the reporter got his facts wrong. Imagine that, a reporter getting their facts wrong. I did count 3 errors in the Travel Channel show. There are a couple errors in the Wired Magazine article. And I think the Wired Science TV show got it pretty close, although I would argue the finer details of some of the points in the show. I am not even sure if any one of the many newspaper stories this last 15 months has got it 100% correct. Newsweek had a ONE LINE quote in their Nov. 21, 2005 issue on the big Brenham Kansas find, and you would think that they could at least get that right, right? Well, they got the one quote from me correct, but then they credited the quote to: Professional meteorite hunter Steve Arnold, on his 1,400-pound find in Arkansas... OK, I guess an argument in their defense could be made that Kansas can be found inside the word Arkansas so they didn't get it all that wrong. Reporters have a funny phobia of actually letting people they interview proof read their stories. So virtually every story ever printed or broadcasted in every article or program gets some of their facts wrong. And what you ask are these reporter's editors doing? I don't know, I ask the same question. Steve Arnold, P.M.H. *** In a message dated 1/2/2007 10:56:05 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) writes: It won't bring as much as an earlier find: a 1,400-pound space rock that resembles a massive, slightly rotting yam. Ugly is only skin deep, however. This monstrosity sold for a cool million. So, I didn't know the rotten yam had sold, is that true? I like yams. Dave F. ** __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] (no subject) Darryl Pitt...Coloradoand NewJersey events
Hi, Chris, List, Zetans, Not to be overly picky, but... Zetans are preparing to bombard the Earth with missiles prior to stealing all our women to host their alien spawn. Shouldn't that be...? Zetans are preparing to bombard the Earth with missiles AFTER stealing all our women to host their alien spawn. I believe there's a joke about Vikings whose punchline illustrates this principle: No, no, FIRST you rape, THEN you pillage, THEN you burn... Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: Chris Peterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 4:07 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] (no subject) Darryl Pitt...Coloradoand NewJersey events Ah, I see you've never dealt with a rabid conspiracy theorist g. (BTW, I'm not putting Dirk in that category because of his comment.) These guys are fully capable of believing that not only could NORAD completely fabricate any elements, but that all the amateur satellite watchers have been subverted as well, or that their numbers are changed by the Global Internet Control Computer at NSA. Of course, I've been subverted, too. You should see some of the email I get after a big fireball, when I publicly offer such a prosaic explanation as a random collision with a bit of space debris. If I wasn't under Mind Control, I'd be telling everyone the Truth, that Zetans are preparing to bombard the Earth with missiles prior to stealing all our women to host their alien spawn. Of course, I agree with you completely- the orbital elements can be taken with a very high degree of trust. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: Alexander Seidel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Chris Peterson [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 2:50 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] (no subject) Darryl Pitt...Colorado and NewJersey events Anyway, we aren't all dependent on trusting what the government or TV tell us! True, Chris, but with respect to the incident of a spectacular early morning light show over Denver you can rely on the codes programmed by experts and data on decaying satellites provided by NORAD. You can prove this for yourself, if you use the (openly available) codes on openly available two-line-element orbital data of satellites on the internet. NORAD won´t issue these for military US spy satellites, which are sort of classifieds, but will issue them for all the ten thousands of other near earth artifical satellites - including the decaying Russian booster rocket stage that we are talking about. And regarding the Classifieds - you can easily look them up at heavens-above.com whereever you live, no observable secrets at all - from the perspective of a groundbased artificial satellite observer using simple optical means that is :-) Never saw a Lacrosse big spy bird on a clear, warm evening from your rocking chair? :-) Alex Berlin/Germany __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Bright New Comet Could Become Brilliant
Hi, List, Everybody loves a bright comet... http://www.space.com/spacewatch/070104_comet_mcnaught.html A newfound comet is about to loop around the Sun and might offer skywatchers a rare and fantastic view. But comets are unpredictable, and this one has a wide range of possible outcomes, experts say. When Australian astronomer Robert McNaught announced Aug. 7 that he had discovered a faint comet on a photograph taken at the Siding Spring Observatory in New South Wales, it was a distant and inconspicuous object. But its orbital motion at once made it clear that this comet, officially catalogued as C/2006 P1, might grow very bright right about now. Comet McNaught's orbit [video] indicates that it will sweep to within just 15.8 million miles (25.4 million kilometers) of the Sun on Jan. 12. This rather close approach-less than half the average distance of Mercury, the closest planet to the Sun-suggests the comet has the potential to briefly evolve into a bright object. The big question is, just how bright? Recent estimates have ranged widely from magnitude +2.1 (about as bright as Polaris, the North Star) to a dazzling -8.8 (about 40 times brighter than Venus)! [The lower the magnitude number, the brighter the object. The brightest stars in the sky are categorized as zero or first magnitude. Negative magnitudes are reserved for the most brilliant objects: the brightest star is Sirius (-1.4); the full Moon is -12.7; the Sun is -26.7. The faintest stars visible under dark skies are around +6.] The reason for the great uncertainty stems from the fact that for the past few weeks the comet has been positioned at such a relatively small angular distance from the Sun in the sky that it has been extremely difficult to get good measurements of its brightness. Now, with a little over a week to go before the comet makes its closest approach to the Sun (called perihelion), just how bright it may ultimately get and how long a tail may develop remain to be seen. Predicting a newly discovered comet's brightness has proven historically to be difficult, especially around the time of perihelion. This is the 31st comet to bear McNaught's name and at time of discovery, it was no brighter than magnitude 17-far too dim to see with the naked eye. Observers have followed its gradual brightening as its distances from Sun and Earth decreased. It's currently both a morning and evening object, visible very low near the east-southeast horizon about 30 to 40 minutes before sunrise and very low near the west-southwest horizon about 30 to 40 minutes after sunset. During this upcoming week, prospective observers should seek the most favorable conditions possible. Even a bright comet can be obliterated by thin horizon clouds, haze, humid air, smoke, twilight glow, city lights, or moonlight. Binoculars are strongly recommended for locating it. But the past few days, reports suggest that Comet McNaught is becoming easier to sight even through the bright twilight glow. David Moore reported seeing the comet on New Year's Day evening from Dublin, Ireland. He writes: After searching for over half an hour in strong twilight I saw it easily in 20x80 binoculars from an upstairs window. I could see a small fuzzy and surprisingly bright head about as bright as the mag 3.5 star Lambda Aquilae 6 degrees above it. That said, it was not an easy observation given the strong twilight and the comet was only 3.0 degrees above the horizon! Well-known comet observer, John Bortle of Stormville, New York caught sight of the comet just before sunrise with 15 x 80 binoculars on Jan. 2. My eastern view was largely obstructed by trees, Bortle said. Still it was somewhat amazing to see the comet against such a bright sky and through all those tree branches! From experience in making similar observations, I'd judge that it was not any fainter than 2nd magnitude. Regardless of just how bright Comet McNaught becomes, beginning on Friday, Jan. 12 and continuing through Monday, Jan. 15, it will be passing through the field of view of the Solar and Heliospheric Observatory (SOHO); a spacecraft that was launched in 1995 to study the Sun. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NJO - Votes
Hi, About an hour after Ron posted the first news story about the NJO, with a link to the newspaper with a photo that had a scale in it, I posted this: Thankfully, they provide a scale, so a rough estimate of volume can be made. The weight is given as 13 ounces, or about 370 grams. Roughing up the volume on a cylinder of the diameter and length of the object shown, I get a density between 7 gm/cm^3 and 8 gm/cm^3, so it's likely iron. Specifically, a rectangular prism 25mm x 25mm x 70mm, or a cylinder 30mm by 80mm, covers that density range. Of course, it's a potato, but I approximate its volume at 45 +/- 3 cc. That would be consistent with iron at that weight. Brass or copper would be 15-20% heavier and lead or silver would be 50% heavier for that size. Iridium or osmium would be 200% heavier, and a plutonium reactor slug would be 130% heavier. A meteorwrong of solid gold would be 150% heavier. A slug of tin would be almost the same weight as iron, but pure tin is not that common. The only other choice is copper or brass and for that, the object would have to be no more than 39 +/- 3 cc in volume. Its length is evident, but it would have to have an average circularized cross section just under one inch in diameter, to be the right volume to be copper or brass. It looks bulkier than that to me, but it's hard to judge a potato from photos, videos, TV. The density of iron meteorites is variable over a +/- 10% range depending the other constituents; nickel has a density of 8.9, while troilite lowers the bulk density of the iron. The density of copper alloys and brass varies considerably according to composition. Two days of rising publicity, but would it take you more than two hours to measure its density, window a corner, do the nickel test, give it a close squint, and so forth? Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: Matson, Robert [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Meteorite Mailing List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 3:06 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NJO - Votes Hi All, I was surprised that our local NBC affiliate in Los Angeles closed the news last night (just before Jay Leno) with a 30-second blurb on the mystery metal object from New Jersey. So I was finally able to see high-definition video of the object being rotated, allowing a better feel for the surface texture. It is a bit peanut-shaped, and certainly larger than a golf ball which means its specific gravity is correspondingly lower -- less than 7 I should think. The surface looked melted in some spots (like viscous drips), but in other areas I thought I could see glints from small, metallic crystal faces -- although not unlike the octahedrite crystals one sees in the higher quality Nantan pieces. If this had been a find rather than a fall, I'd be very encouraged by its density and appearance. But as a fresh fall, it looks, well, ~wrong~. Where is the crust of magnetite? How could it look the way it does if it just screamed through our upper atmosphere at 8+ miles per second? So my vote is that if it turns out to be a meteorite, foul play is involved. Determining whether it is a meteorite or not should take about 20 seconds by any regular member of this list examining the specimen firsthand. If it ~is~ a meteorite, the next step would be to check its gamma ray spectrum for evidence of short-lived, cosmic-ray-induced radioactive isotopes in order to prove it was recently in space. On a final note, by nature I'm suspicious of coincidences; given the recent reentry of the Soyuz third stage booster over Wyoming/ Colorado the morning of January 4th, I thought it would be a good idea to check that rocket body's ground track for the evening of January 2nd over New Jersey! For example, there may have been pyro bolts or other deployment hardware related to the launch that would have had different drag coefficients, causing them to reenter earlier or later than the rocket body. Great idea on paper; alas, there were no passes close to New Jersey in the hours prior to 9pm on Tuesday night. --Rob __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fossil, Relict, or Paleo- was Fossil NWA 2828
Hi, This is clearly a case where the terminology has not caught up with what's being described. There are many ways in which a Meteorite can age over a geologically significant time period, or a very short time, for that matter. The term fossil not only applies to ancient materials altered in composition, but to situations where the original materials have been completely replaced by other minerals which are deposited in their place, preserving the form, but not the substance, of the original. It's my impression that the very oldest fossil meteorites, those from Sweden that date back 380,000,000 to 410,000,000 years ago, are largely replacement materials. Irons are a completely different case. No matter how ancient the shale, it is the original material, now completely oxidized, but while the iron atoms are those of the original object, terrestrialization causes their original form to be completely lost. In a shorter run, the minerals of a stone meteorite are altered to different minerals while retaining their original form, and often the agent is water, as was apparently the case in these much-discussed NWA's. Has anyone produced an estimated terrestrial age for them? (I looked at some of the references but didn't see any estimates or determinations.) Since the Sahara was wet until the end of the recent Ice Age, they need not be particularly ancient. Talking about terminology always sounds like quibbling (sorry). Part of the problem is that the recovered meteorites that we know about are the ones lucky enough to land softly in a nice desert or dry lake or to be found soon enough that they haven't rotted away, and they DO rot away very quickly. For example, Iowa is much wetter than Kansas. Iowa has ONE chondrite that's a Find (not a Fall); Kansas has nearly 120. (OK, having Nininger helps some...) We were talking a few weeks ago about Tagish Lake, that is, the ones that got away and have been underwater for 5 years. I bet they're VERY altered and terrestrialized by now, unrecognizable sludge, but you could hardly call them paleo-meteorites! So, we're talking about meteorites that may be very ancient or may not be particularly ancient at all, that may be almost totally replaced, or that may be almost totally altered but not replaced at all, that may retain their original forms, or that may be nothing but a pile of red dirt. It doesn't sound to me like a single term applies reasonably to all these cases. On the basis of how the terms are used in the other sciences, I don't see how you could call anything a fossil unless it retains (much of) its original form, and it seems to me that altered should be a milder term than terrestrialized, but from what you say it's the other way around; a thing can be altered a little or a lot, but terrestrialized implies a transformation. Paleo- corresponds to no particular scale of age, the term being used freely in hundreds of age- differing contexts, and indeed, age may be irrelevant to the strange condition of a meteorite that's in the process of disappearing into the inhospitable and very hostile environment of Earth (not at all like a nice clean vacuum where the Sun always shines and a rock can bask in its rays for all of its days, and it never rains, not for billions of years). Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: Mr EMan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: David Weir [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Greg Hupe [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2007 11:46 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fossil, Relict, or Paleo- was Fossil NWA 2828 Under this NomCom guideline NWA2828 isn't relict as it is hardly altered and should be referred to as a paleo meteorite. (Note:If this gets too drawn out all meteoritic material is paleo as most is 4.5 billion years old). However, paleo is a best choice of the three proposed terms. My take on the three options: Relict: in petrology and geology is used to describe the occurrence of traces of original material after alteration. e.g. Serpentine is the hydrated alteration product of olivine and the presence of olivine or peridot within serpentine would be referred to as relict olivine etc. Lignite within a coal seam is relict lignite. NWA2828 is hardly relict under this definition and the NomCom guidelines. However, Relict is a valid incorporation of the concept into meteorites. Note that Relict is consistent with the almost complete alteration to secondary minerals. Where Fossil may include replacement of the original mineral. This is a subtle but important distinction. Fossil: (Greek Dug or to Dig) Obviously evolved this term is in wide use but rarely specified. It is usually descriptive of any ancient organically produced artifact; Trace, imprint, hard or soft tissue, premineralized, mineralized segment, mummified-- in some fashion altered from its
Re: [meteorite-list] Nogata Meteorite
Hi, For the lurking List, Nogata is an ordinary chondrite, type L: After detonations and a brilliant flash at night, a stone fell which was recovered from a hole in the ground the following morning. The stone has been preserved since its fall in the Shinto shrine of Suga Jinja, and the date of fall (April 7 in the third year of Jogan, i.e.. May 19, 861 in the Julian calendar) is written on the wooden box containing the stone. However, the script is of a later date than 861, as is the wooden box (S. Murayama, letter_ of_ 13_ June_, 1980_, in Min. Dept., NHM, London). A single mass of 472g, description, analysis, olivine Fa 25.1^, orthopyroxene Fs 22^, 19.45 % total iron, M. Shima et al. (1983). Noble gas systematics, CRE age ~ 64Ma; K-Ar age ~ 4.75Ga, N. Takaoka et al. (1989). 470g remain in the possesion of Suga Junja Shrine. Nice fusion crust, I would guess, from the darkness of the stone in the photo. Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: Darren Garrison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael L Blood [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 11:35 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Nogata Meteorite On Sun, 07 Jan 2007 18:00:10 -0800, you wrote: If you do discover a still photo of it, I would much appreciate if you let me know of it, as I am working on a book about hammers. Right Plugging the Japanese word for meteorite inseki along with Nogata pulls up this small image: http://www.nogata-cci.or.jp/kan-inseki.html __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Strangest link between life on earth and mars yet!
Hi, The whole question of the reality of nanobacteria has been with us for sometime now. The concept of some form of microbial (?) life many times smaller than the smallest bacteria originates with a Texas geologist (Folk), who found fossil traces in Italian carbonates. The smallest known bacteria are as large as the largest viruses. Pox viruses, which cause diseases such as smallpox, can be 300 nanometers across their longest axis. There are bacteria as small as 200 nm. Viruses can get much smaller, however; the picornaviruses, a group that includes polio and hepatitis A, can be as small as 24 to 35 nm. The proposed nanobacteria are about 100 nanometers across, which would mean they would have perhaps one eighth of the volume of the smallest known bacteria, which is impossibly small for a form of life, say microbiologists. Of course, you should bear in mind that, just as paleontologists don't like physicists and astronomers proposing asteroids as dinosaur killers, biologists don't like geologists proposing any new life forms that the biologists may have missed. In 1998 the debate got real when Olavi Kajander and Neva Ciftcioglu of the University of Kuopio in Finland claimed to have found nanobacteria, surrounded by a calcium-rich mineral called apatite, in human kidney stones. Medically, the cause of kidney stones has been an unsolved mystery for a century. Objections were quick in coming. Many of the supposed nanobacteria were less than 100 nm across, smaller than many viruses, which cannot replicate independently. Microbiologically, to contain the DNA and proteins needed to function, a cell must be at least 140 nm across. If these are bacteria, they are miracles of packaging. These particles are self replicating, that is without doubt, [University of British Columbia microbiologist Yossef] Av Gay says. But finding out what is inside them is complicated... The story seems to be gearing toward the idea that these are not bacteria, but maybe a new living form. It is a very interesting story, but you won't get the answer now. Nanobacteria, or whatever form of life they are, have now been found in kidney stones, deep ocean sediments, a mile deep in solid rock, in human arterial plaque, gallstones, mine sludge, psammona bodies (calcified structures in ovarian cancer), and of course, first and foremost, they, or rather their traces, are the evidence of life in the famous Alan Hills Martian meteorite. It is the claim of nanobacteria that chiefly fuels opposition to the meteorite discovery claim, as a great many biologists are virulently opposed to the notion of nanobacteria. There is no dount in my mind that the acceptance of that claim will wait until the notion of such small life is accepted (and understood). Don't hold your breath. Many decades ago an Australian pathologist discovered that a bacteria (H. pylori) was the cause of stomach ulcers, a disorder thought by medical science to be without an infectious cause. It took nearly two decades and hundreds of positive trials to convince the over-grown and slow-moving consensus of science. Yet, today, after twenty more years since it was ccepted as the cause of ulcers, if you go to a doctor with your ulcer, he will likely NOT treat you for your H. pylori infection -- forty years after the discovery. And that was just the discovery of a perfectly ordinary bacteria. Maybe in another 40 years... Interestingly, there are currently TWO biological mysteries that revolve around the question of very small agents. There's the whole nanobacteria question and there is the question of the particulate agents of the dozen or so known spongiform encephalopathies, something about 1/3 the size of a large virus; in other words, about the same size as small nanobacteria. The currently popular theory is that the agent is an abnormally folded protein called a prion. However, despite the prion theory winning its advocate the Nobel Price more than a decade ago, it has never achieved a demonstrated proof (in vitrio or in vivo). Very embarassing. And, after a decade, the prion theory has generated no advances of any kind. (Even Einstein had to wait 15 years to get his Nobel for relativity, from 1905 until 1919, when there was finally an experimental proof.) The answers, whatever they are, will probably take decades to turn up. Sterling K. Webb - Mayo Clinic finds DNA in nanobacteria, 2004: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3729487.stm Nanobacteria discovered in mine sludge; too small to be seen under a microscope, they are found by their DNA: December, 2006: http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/20061121184849data_trunc_sys.shtml - - Original Message - From: doctor death [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 7
Re: [meteorite-list] Strangest link between life on earth and mars yet!
Hi, Gerry, How big is nano again, one billionth of a ---? One billionth of a meter, or one millionth of a millimeter, so if you had nanobacteria that were 100 nm long, it would take 10,000 of them, head to tail (assuming they had heads or tails), to span one millimeter. A wavelength of visible light would be 400 nm to 770 nm (depending on its color), so a 100 nm nanobacteria would be about 1/6 the width of one wavelength of yellow light. (Do you suppose they surf?) There is a smaller unit, the angstrom, which is one ten-billionth of a meter, or ten times smaller. We're talking SMALL here -- individual atoms range from five angstroms (hydrogen) up to about 15 angstroms in size (lead). Figure atoms at one nm +/- half an nm. So a 100 nm critter is at most only 200 atoms wide and could only contain about 8 million small atoms if it were a sphere. A simple organic molecule, like cooking oil, is about 20 angstroms across; that's 2 nm. We can measure that molecular size in our backyards, by the way, by placing a tiny drop of oil of known volume on the surface of a big calm pool of water and waiting for it to spread out as far as it can go, then divide the known volume by the area of the oil-slick, which is only one molecule thick. Neat trick, eh? Who thought of that? Benjamin Franklin... Most viruses are 10 nm to 100 nm, but the record-holder is 400 nm, or bigger than some bacteria. Most bacteria range from 200 nm (the very tiniest) up to big nasty ones at 2000 nm. Helpful little animals like yeast cells (there are 600+ species of yeast) are 2000 nm, no bigger than a bacterium, up to 15,000 nm. Cells of protozoa like amoeba are 20,000 to 30,000 nm across, but every once in a while an ameoba may grow to 4,000,000 nm across --- that's 4 mm and almost big enough to have a sit-down talk with! (If they had anything to say...) Protozoa like paramecium are very complicated creatures. Even though they are only one cell, they have specialized cellular structures that function as gullets, stomachs, excretory organs, and legs. They have an interesting sex life and probably have more to say than that amoeba... The many paramecium species range from less than 100,000 nm up to as much as 500,000 nm, or big enough to see with the naked eye (well, your eyes, maybe; mine are not quite that good). One of your own 100,000 billion human body cells is on average, about 10,000 nm across and weighs, on average, about one nanogram, less if you're skinny. And, me, I'm about 1,775,000,000 nm tall. Does that put things in perspective? Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: Gerald Flaherty [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 7:24 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Strangest link between life on earth and mars yet! The relatively recent acceptence of germs required a revolution in the medical community ushering in the modern norm where cleanliness became the imperative. So it seems plausible that self-replicating nano things might make modern science balk. How big is nano again, one billionth of a---? Jerry Flaherty __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Pluto's Demotion Tapped as 2006 Word of the Year
http://www.space.com/news/ap_070108_plutoed_word.html ANAHEIM, California (AP) - Pluto is finally getting some respect - from wordsmiths. Plutoed'' was chosen 2006 Word of the Year by the American Dialect Society at its annual meeting on Friday. To pluto'' is to demote or devalue someone or something'' much like what happened to the former planet last year when the General Assembly of the International Astronomical Union decided Pluto did not meet its definition of a planet... The 117-year-old organization includes linguists, grammarians, historians and independent scholars. In conducting the vote, members do so for fun and not in any official capacity of inducting words into the English language. Sterling K. Webb PS: If only the IAU operated the same way... __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Brightest Comet in 30 Years: Comet C/2006 P1(McNaught)
Hi, List, I posted this following about Comet McNaught last night after I got back from my first look at it, but it disappeared into the temporary black hole the List was transiting and never appeared on the other side. Let's try it again. I added a few comments. --- Comet McNaught is very bright, very visible, but very poorly placed to be seen easily. It is extremely low on the horizon by the time it can be seen. Because it is so low it can only be seen for another 2-3 days in the evening sky [from the northern hemisphere]. I got a look at it the first time just this evening. Right now, it's trailing the Sun, getting closer and closer to the Sun, until Jan. 12 when it will race around it at only half the distance of Mercury. The comet's orbit isn't in the flat plane of the solar system; it coming in from above (north) of the system and will go out below (south), In fact the plane of its orbit is turned almost at right angles to the plane of the solar system. Here's how the orbit looks: http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/db_shm?des=2006+P1 So, basically, locating it's not a problem. Find a place where you can see ALL the way down to the western horizon. Wait till after the Sun sets The first thing you will see is Venus, bright as a spotlight. As it gets darker, look to the right of Venus and down, immediately north of the spot where the Sun has set. As it gets darker, you should spot the comet. Binoculars will help if the horizon is hazy. My horizon was so hazy that it never was naked-eye visible [to me at least], but it showed up in small (7x35) binoculars wonderfully. By the time it's dark enough to see the comet it will be less than five degrees above the horizon, most likely. Of course, this all assumes good weather, clear skies, no clouds, but it's getting so bright so fast that even haze doesn't hide it. Here's a good sky chart: http://skytonight.com/observing/highlights/5089276.html It's really LOW in the sky... If this puppy were up at the top of the sky, people would stand and gawk, like they say, but you've got hunt it down. The professionals are cautious about the tail of the comet being visible, but tonight the tail seemed brighter than the head of the comet. That could just be because the head was deeper in the haze. But I could see 2 degrees or more of tail even with all that haze. [As you can tell from the tone of the spaceweather piece, they're getting more enthusiastic by the day as this comet puts on a better and better show. In particular, the tail of the comet seems to be especially bright, even brighter than the head/coma, or it did to me last night.] Paradoxically, it will get brighter each night up through Jan. 12th, but it will be closer to the Sun each night and the viewing time will be shorter and the comet lower in the sky. It's worth a look. Probably the biggest carboneous chondrite you'll see for years, and it's headed AWAY from eBay. Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: Ron Baalke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite Mailing List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 12:15 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Brightest Comet in 30 Years: Comet C/2006 P1(McNaught) Space Weather News for Jan. 10, 2007 http://spaceweather.com Comet McNaught has continued to brighten as it approaches the sun and it is now the brightest comet in 30 years. For observers in the northern Hemisphere, tonight is probably the best time to see it: Go outside this evening and face the sunset. A clear view of the western horizon is essential, because the comet hangs very low. As the twilight fades to black, it should become visible to the naked eye. Observers say it's a fantastic sight through binoculars. In the days ahead, Comet McNaught will pass the sun and emerge in good position for southern hemisphere viewing later this month. Meanwhile, solar heating will continue to puff up the comet, causing it to brighten even more. It could become one of the brightest comets in centuries, visible even in daylit skies. Visit http://spaceweather.com for photos and updates. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Comet McNaught Is Now A DAYLUGHT COMET!
http://spaceweather.com/ Comet McNaught is now visible in broad daylight. 'It's fantastic,' reports Wayne Winch of Bishop, California. 'I put the sun behind a neighbor's house to block the glare and the comet popped right into view. You can even see the tail!' Just hours ago, Mark Vornhusen took this picture of the comet between clouds over Gais, Switzerland photo This weekend is a special time for Comet McNaught because it is passing close to the sun. Solar heat is causing the comet to vaporize furiously and brighten to daylight visibility. At magnitude -4 to -5, McNaught is the brightest comet since Ikeya-Seki in 1965. The secret to seeing McNaught: Get rid of the sun. You can do this by standing in the shadow of a tall building or billboard. Make a fist and hold it at arm's length. The comet is about one fist-width (5 degrees) east of the sun's position. Try it! Warning: Binoculars dramatically improve the view of the comet, allowing you to see structure within the tail . But please be super-careful not to look at the sun. Direct sunlight through binoculars can cause permanent eye damage. The comet is now as bright or brighter than Venus, which can usually be seen in the daylight if you know where to look. A good trick (often recommended for spotting Venus in daylight) is to take a small cardboard mailing tube one inch or more in diameter or the central tube out of a roll of paper towels and put it to one eye as if it were a telescope (closing the other eye, naturally). I would love to give you a first hand description, but I happen to be in the dead middle of a classic midwestern ice storm. Every leaf, branch, twig, and blade of grass is sheathed in a centimeter of ice, and the sky has been a dark grey wooly mass for two days of perpetual twilight. If the Sun went supernova, I wouldn't have been able to see it... Somewhere the Sun is shining, somewhere the comet's flying, but there is no joy in Mugville; the Visible Universe has struck out. Sterling K. Webb __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Comet McNaught report from the Rhein-Main Area
Hi, Bernd, and all Comet Hopefuls This brightening to daylight status was forecast first by Joseph Marcus and published on the Astrosite Groningen: http://www.shopplaza.nl/astro/ It will only last up through the day of January 16th. The super-brightening is caused by forward scatter of light off the dust tail during this period of time (Jan. 12-16) when the tail is in the right position for we Earthlings to benefit from the effect. His [Marcus's] study shows that an increase in brightness of about 2.5 magnitudes can be expected at the time that the minimum scattering angle θ is reached on January 14.3. As a consequence it is well possible that this comet can be observed in broad daylight close to the sun for several days around that time. Probably binoculars or small telescopes will be needed if sky conditions are less than optimal, but naked eye visiblity should be easy under clear transparant skies. His latest predictions can be found at: http://www.shopplaza.nl/astro/C2006P1.doc They suggest a maximum brightness of magnitude -5.7, or FIVE TIMES brighter than Venus. This would make Comet McNaught a very remarkable daylight object indeed. If so and your skies are clear, Bernd, just walk out into your garden! I've been searching satellite imagery for the US, thinking in my hopeful way that perhaps I could drive 200 kilometers to find clear skies. The entire comtinental US, at this moment, is blanketed with thick clouds except for California, Oregon, half of Arizona, parts of Florida, and the mountains of North Carolina. (They're only 2000 kilometers away from me.) Thus, I expect few US observers will have much luck with the daylight comet. Anyone fortunate enough to have clear skies should give it a try. Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 12:31 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Comet McNaught report from the Rhein-Main Area Hello Cometaries, Well, we finally had a sunny Sunday and a beautiful sunset to look forward to after several days of rain and drizzle. I drove out into the fields where I was able to enjoy an unobstructed view of the western sky but my efforts to locate and observe McNaught came to naught. Mr McNaught was n a u g h t seen ... too close to the horizon, too close to the Sun :-(( Bernd __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] eaten meteorite
Hi, Rob, The heck with the chondrules! Didn't Novo Urei have (very small, shock-formed) diamonds in it? And remember, don't swallow that bite until you've chewed it thoroughly, little Sasha... Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: Rob McCafferty [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 7:59 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] eaten meteorite Sorry Martin, I accidentally deleted you mail. Eating the Novo Urei? Considering how hard chondrules are, I'd imagine eating any meteorite is bad for the teeth but an Ureilite? Ouch. No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Novo-Urei eaten - reference?
Hi, Here's the few websites with references to eating Novo Urei that Google could find: http://www.meteorites.tv/contents/en-us/d74.html The Labennes http://www.meteorite.fr/en/classification/PAC-group.htm Bruno and Carine http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:v1f79uyArJ0J:six.pairlist.net/pipermail/meteorite-list/2004-August/163642.html+novo+urei+eatenhl=engl=usct=clnkcd=3 Novo Urei fall sept 4, 1886 (the Ureilite class name giving meteorite ) was eaten the indigeneous after the fall. The some Dag 489 Shergottite was eaten by its finder. ( he likes to tell that story ) I ate recently some fragments of my new diogenite that dropped on my bench after trimming. Not bad ! www.caillou-noir.com/Molay.htm It is the one that tastes so good. I will recommand to former meteorite eaters to focus on achondrites, the ones where there is less Ni. Shall I propose to our local brewery ( Micro Basserie de Chamonix, Canadian owner, just a good place to drink.) to make a try with some Dio powder from a future sawing ? --- Michel Franco I find it interesting that all the references on the eating Novo Urei were written by individuals of that nation with the reputation for the greatest of gustatory sophistication: La Belle Patrie -- France! Perhaps they have recipes to share? (Michel Franco has already suggested what to drink with your meteorite.) And Kim Stanley Robinson, author of the Mars Trilogy (Red Mars, Green Mars, Blue Mars), ate a piece of Zagami after he mailed the final manuscript to his publisher, while sitting on his roof, then wrote a poem about Eating Mars. Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: Trace [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 9:29 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Novo-Urei eaten - reference? I remember reading the story about the meteorites being eaten for their 'magical' properties. I thought I saw it on a website. Though, I can't seem to find it now. Trace - Original Message - From: Martin Altmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Mark Grossman' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 6:19 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Novo-Urei eaten - reference? Hi Mark, I don't know the original reference fort the story, that the locals ate some stones of Novo-Urei, We have to ask, Biblio-Bernd or Seguej Vassiliev. So I will send this question to the list. ...and Novo-Urei really looks tasty! http://www.geokhi.ru/~meteorit/opis/novo-urei-e.html Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Mark Grossman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Gesendet: Mittwoch, 17. Januar 2007 02:37 An: Martin Altmann Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Stolen NWA 869 Martin, Thanks so much for the response! Do you have a reference for this? I thought I read something in Burke? Thanks! Mark - Original Message - From: Martin Altmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 8:21 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Stolen NWA 869 And Novo-Urei, a fall in 1886 in Russiam was eaten... -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Namibia: So Much Potential But Not Enough Funds (Hoba Meteorite)
Hi, Dave, List, Somebody's doing some good PR for Namibia. Take the name Namibia. If you look at the nice Wikipedia article on Namibia, the facts are all there: one of the lowest population densities in the world, one of the most rain-deprived countries in the world (like none), one of the least blessed by economic resources, a sad history, and so forth. But nowhere in the article will you find the name that Namibia went by for centuries: THE SKELETON COAST. Getting people to stop calling you The Skeleton Coast is a good job of PR. There's just something about the name The Skeleton Coast that puts people off, don't you think? Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: Dave Freeman mjwy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Ron Baalke [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Meteorite Mailing List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 1:53 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Namibia: So Much Potential But Not Enough Funds (Hoba Meteorite) Sounds like a great tourist destination, a big rock, alcoholics and drug addicts, crime, town in debt up to their ears, danger of electricity amd water being turned off, high unemployment, and a large military presence. Well pack my bags! Poorly thought out release by Mr. Kangueehi, maybe the spoof and phish people will move to Namibia for the new center of commerce. Dave F. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA Spacecraft En Route to Pluto Prepares forJupiter Encounter
Hi, Rob, I see Ron just posted the explanation to you and the List, but if you like colored line diagrams galore and equations with delta's in them, take a look at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_slingshot Gotta love those little delta's. Sir Isaac would be de-lighted. The article also explains the powered slingshot when you do a engine burn at closest approach, which adds the energy of the burn to the energy provided by the planet, and to the energy the fuel picked up while falling in. It all goes to the spacecraft, because after you burn the fuel, it gets left behind. The powered slingshot is why the Earth is a hopeless candidate for spaceports of the future. You want to go somewhere else in the solar system? Depart from the Moon! It's got gentle escape velocity, no bothersome draggy atmosphere, then you drop like a rock in a circumterrestial orbit that skims the edge of that unhealthy Earth atmosphere. and do your big burn there. Hello, Mars, Venus, wherever you want to go! I'll be selling lunar condos in the lobby afterward, and LunaPort construction bonds, too... Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: Rob McCafferty [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Ron Baalke [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 4:33 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NASA Spacecraft En Route to Pluto Prepares forJupiter Encounter Jupiter's gravity will accelerate New Horizons away from the sun by an additional 9,000 miles per hour, pushing it past 52,000 mph and hurling it toward a pass through the Pluto system in July 2015. Could someone clarify something which ahs been bothering me for years about this gravity assist technique? Why does the spacecraft come out of the gravity well going faster than it went in without thrust? You remember the conservation of energy stuff from school? GravPotential to Kinetic to GravPotential. A ball rolling down a hill can only roll up the other side to a height as high as it was released from. Why does this not apply to spacecraft? It's climbing out of the suns gravity well so it ought to be slowing down all the way. When you drop into Jupiters gravity well I can see that you're going to speed up but on the way out surely it'll lose all that speed and at the end of the encounter should be no faster than it went in at. In fact, slower because it's now further up the hill of the suns gravity well. Please, will someone tell me what I'm missing. It bothers me tremendously that I have a BSc in physics and studied both astronomy and astrophysics subsids and I don't get it. It's the same with asteroids getting ejected into orbits further out. How? How? Sir Isaac would not be amused Rob McC Looking for earth-friendly autos? Browse Top Cars by Green Rating at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center. http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/ __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] eBay no longer a community
Hi, Nick, List It is coming, and eBay won't be there... Well, they do have that 3+ billion dollar a year head start... Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: Nicholas Gessler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 10:35 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] eBay no longer a community Hello All, I was grossly disappointed at eBay's new policy of hiding the identity of all bidders in auctions over $200. Knowing at least a few of the bidders made one feel like he was taking part in a community. Oh, Fred bought that, or Sam didn't bid high enough, was part of the fun of knowing who was who - who was building their collection with similar items, who was buying and who was selling. Knowing who was present at the auction made a person feel he was among friends. Entire networks of collectors, list-serves, and even get-togethers evolved because of that comradery. Now eBay has killed that! Imagine going to a live auction where everyone who entered was hooded! I'd like to see Sotheby's or Christie's try that. What a damper that would put on the friendly competition. If anyone has an in to the eBay policy makers, please let me know how to make a very loud protest heard! I just called eBay and talked to a junior customer handler. He was really only interested in giving me the party line. Is eBay likely to go back? I asked. No, that won't happen, he said. The official BS reason is to prevent us from getting fraudulent counterfeit eBay offers. Yes, I get 20 of those a day. Also adverts for Viagra, notices that someone wants to send me $20,000,00, mortgage and lottery offers, etc. That is the price that one pays for a freely networked community. Wait until one of the massive online communities starts putting up auctions, where you can walk into a bourse and see all the meteorites or cryptographic equipment nicely displayed. It is coming, and eBay won't be there... Cheers? Nick [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Honolulu
Hi, Tracy, Michael, List, I know of only one confirmed hit on a ship: TAHARA (JAPAN) H5 1991 The meteorite was found on deck of the ship M.S. Century-Highway No. 1, which was loading cars in the T-3 berth on Toyota-pier at Toyohashi harbour (Tahara district). When the crew came back from lunch after 12:00, they found meteorite fragments spread out from two impact dents in the steel deck, the largest measuring 20 x 6.5 cm and 3 cm depth, the smaller 17cm away from it. From the size of the impact dent the total weight was estimated to more than 5kg, but most of it was thrown into the ocean by the cleaning crew, only about 1 kg are preserved. No sound was heard accompanying the fall, but during car loading it was very noisy. Keep that cleaning crew away from meteorites. Send'em over to my house. Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: tracy latimer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 3:51 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Honolulu I reviewed the little I had regarding the Honolulu fall, and have to make a retraction -- or maybe a redirection. Although my material cannot confirm whether any fragments struck ships at anchor in the harbor, several did fall on and around the mission house settlement by the harbor, one striking coral rock, which was commonly used for construction of walls and houses. Before I could definitively say Honolulu was a hammer, I'd have to do more research to confirm it, but it's not unlikely. BTW, I think my statement came from misreading the original article in Aloha Airline's inflight magazine; it said that sailors from the Russian frigate Predpriatie took meteoric fragments back to Russia with them. I had thought that meant they collected pieces that fell on the ship. Apparently they instead collected them on the mission house grounds and brought them aboard. My small piece at least has that likely provenance! Tracy Latimer From: Michael L Blood [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: tracy latimer [EMAIL PROTECTED],Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Honolulu Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 12:17:38 -0800 Tracy, I would love to add Honolulu to my list of hammers. Do you (or anyone else) know of ANY reference to any stones from this fall hitting a ship? If so, please provide the source. RSVP Thanks, Michael on 1/22/07 9:55 AM, tracy latimer at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Honolulu -- might also count as a hammer, since pieces fell in Honolulu harbor, and some (apocryphally) landed on ships anchored there. Tracy Latimer __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] HAMMER STONE LIST
Hi, List, Since Walt Branch's great list of hammer stones does not seem to be accessible from the front end of the IMCA site via any link, here's how you get to it. (It appears that the IMCA is transitioning websites right now...) http://imca.repetti.net/metinfo/metstruck.html And here's one hammer stone that isn't on that list: TSUKUBA (JAPAN) H5-6 1996 After a luminous meteor and violent detonations, 23 stones totalling ~800 g (largest, 177.5g) were recovered, including one that penetrated a roof. (Catalogue of Meteorites, Grady et al., 2000) Sterling K. Webb __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fireball on the east coast
Hi, ... thus dashing our hopes for a NEW good video of a bolide. Since TV News became mere entertainment, it's hopeless. Get me a picture of this train wreck! Chief, we don't have any pictures of this train wreck. Doesn't matter. Get me any picture of any train wreck. Train wrecks all look alike, don't they? Sterling - Original Message - From: Jeff Kuyken [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 2:36 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fireball on the east coast Hi Darren all, Nice link but I know that fireball anywhere! ;-) That image (http://www.wbir.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=41612provider=top) is taken from the Western Australia fireball video that was recorded on December 1st, 2005. See here for the video: http://www.meteorites.com.au/films/ Cheers, Jeff __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Average size of craters across the solar system?
Hi, The biggest craters are multi-ringed; they are big enough that they are called multi-ringed basins or just basins. Properly, I suppose we should call them impact features rather than craters. The Solar System Hit Parade: Record Holders and All Basins Over 3000 km, are as follows: Mars Elysium 4970 km* Mars Utopia 4715 km* Mars North Tharsis 4500 km* Mars Chryse 4600 km* Mars Hellas 4200 km Callisto Valhalla 4000 km Mercury Caloris 3700 km Luna Procellarum 3200 km (* disputed interpretation) For bodies not on that list, the biggest crater is: GanymedeGilgamesh 550 km Venus Mead 280 km Io Pan 100 km Europa Tyre 44 km TitanUnnamed 440 km (Cassini radar) Triton Unnamed 500 km (Voyager detection, not certain) EarthSudbury 250 km (?) EarthVredefort 300 km (?) From the lists, we can see first that bodies with geologically active surfaces will only show the most recent crater that hasn't been obliterated yet. We can see that the biggest craters are not on the biggest bodies and that the bodies with the biggest craters are not the closest to the Sun nor furthest from the Sun. If we can draw conclusions, my guess would be that the most important question after an impact would be: How Big Was the Truck That Hit You? followed by How Many Big Trucks Drive Through This Neighborhood? Mars is close to the Asteroid Belt, perhaps too close. It has played the odds too often and come up Snake Eyes more times than is healthy for a young planet. Less certain is that Luna, Callisto, and Mercury are all close to heavier bodies which may have accelerated (slingshot) an impactor to a greater velocity than the target body alone would have produced. ...shouldn't, for example, the average crater size on Mercury be bigger than the average crater size on the moon? That would take more statistics than I have on tap tonight, but they look remarkably alike. An unlabeled photo of Mercury might well be carelessly assumed to be the Moon, unless you looked for Mercury's characteristic scarp wrinkles that the Moon lacks. They're not that prominent; you might need a magnifier if the photo is small scale. The Moon has more basins over 2000 km than Mercury does. Just for fun, before we understood about plate tectonics and thought that land only moved up and down, not back and forth, it was widely believed that the Pacific Ocean was, not an impact feature, but an outpact feature, the place where the Moon spun off the Earth, leaving what would be the largest basin in the Solar System (if it were true, that is). Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 9:08 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Average size of craters across the solar system? Hi Darren: Lots of other factors going on: Extra velocity caused by the gravity of the impacted body. Composition of the surface being hit. Composition/density (and thus mass) of the impactor. Surface processes that will affect the loss of craters or their just fading away. At some point, with an old surface, you get saturation of craters, so reach a certain limit on number and size of craters. I am sure there are other things, but it has been a long day. Larry On Sun, January 28, 2007 5:47 pm, Darren Garrison wrote: I was just thinking about this, wondering if anyone has tried to compare average sizes of craters across bodies in the solar system? I was thinking along the lines that, since orbital velocity is higher the closer an object is to the sun, then there should be more bang for the buck for impactors. So, shouldn't for example, the average crater size on Mercury be bigger than the average crater size on the moon? __ __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Anyone visit the NJO today?
Hi, I'll gladly grant that I do not a huge amount of hands-on experience with irons and have only looked at 40 or 50, but I have to say that the surface of this object has the oddest geometry. I've been staring at the reasonably good photo in the article (URL below). It does not resemble any aerodynamic sculpture I've ever seen. I call on the more expert (and there are lots of you!), does this look meteoritic in its surface features to you? Because I don't want to be a Lazy Listoid that just dumps stuff on others, I went to Google Images for iron meteorite and cruised through the first 600 pictures or so, looking for its like. Didn't see it. Lots of nice irons, but nothing with surface features like this. From what I can gather, Delaney gave it the nickel test (it passed) but was not allowed to cut or window or etch. It seems to have been informally accepted into the Meteorite Club, by the press anyway. If it's real, how did it get these surface features? Anyone have any iron similar in its sculpture? Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: Darren Garrison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 6:53 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Anyone visit the NJO today? http://www.app.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070128/NEWS03/701280423/1007/OPINION __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Refrigerator-Sized Chunk of Ice Crushes Car inFlorida
Hi, The press does have trouble with reality, doesn't it? A refrigerator-sized chuck of ice weighs 50 pounds? 1 cubic foot of ice weighs 57.2 pounds. My cheap 18 cubic foot refrigerator measures about 50 cubic feet on the outside. A block of ice that size would weigh 1.252 TONS. The other report says it weighed 100 pounds. Why do we even listen to these people? Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: Ron Baalke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite Mailing List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 1:26 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] Refrigerator-Sized Chunk of Ice Crushes Car inFlorida http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,247938,00.html Refrigerator-Sized Chunk of Ice Crushes Car in Florida Fox News January 28, 2007 A Hillsborough County resident's Ford Mustang was destroyed by just that Sunday, when a large slab of ice fell from the clear Florida sky directly onto the automobile, WTVT reports. A neighbor of the resident who's now down a car told the local FOX affiliate that there was whooshing sound around 9 a.m. EST. Just moments later, he saw the car get crushed by ice. Neighbors speculated the block of ice weighed at least 50 pounds. No injuries were reported, and the Hillsborough County Sheriff's Office said it is investigating. Federal Aviation Administration and local airport officials told WTVT they are unsure if a plane could be faulted for the incident. This latest incident comes less than two weeks ago something similar happened in Philadelphia. A chunk of ice believed to have come from a passing airliner fell through the roof of home in the Pennsylvania suburb. No one was injured, but a mother and her 4-year-old daughter were home at the time. The FAA is currently investigating that incident. --- Aliens, Atmosphere, or Airplane? By Valerie Boey Tampa Bay's 10 News January 28, 2007 Tampa, Florida -- Neighbors heard a whistling sound is what they described before noticing that a neighbor's car was severly damaged. The Ford Mustang had a 100 pound block of ice sitting in the backseat. The back end of the car was caved in. The only explanation from neighbors is the ice fell from the sky. Hillsborough deputies do not believe it was a criminal activity. The 20-year-old owner of the car is upset and did not want to talk to Tampa Bay's 10 News. His father says he has not seen anything like it before. Neighbors have pieces of the ice chunk in their refrigerators. The owner of the car is in possession of the major chunk of ice. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Refrigerator-Sized Chunk of Ice Crushes Carin Florida
Hi On Jan, 12, 2007, a dead stowaway from Senegal was found in a wheelwell at Atlanta. In Jan., 2006, a frozen stowaway fell on a gas station in suburban London. In June, 2005, a stowaway leg and torso fell on Long Island, damaging a home. Between 1996 and 2001, three dead stowaways fell on Long Island. The earliest case in the US date back to the 1970's when a dead man was found on a Long Island lawn, showing no apparent cause of death nor any physical trauma. However, the man's body was deeply depressed into the ground. He was eventually identified as Spanish and it was (correctly) surmised that he had stowed away in a nosewheel well, asphixiated at altitude, frozen quite solid, and had been released when the landing wheel was lowered. The frequency of such incidents is increasing. Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: Darren Garrison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 8:51 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Refrigerator-Sized Chunk of Ice Crushes Carin Florida It could have been worse-- they could have been hit by a stowawayarite: http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/01/29/los.angeles.airport.body.ap/index.html http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/01/12/national/main2355967.shtml http://www.aero-news.net/news/commair.cfm?ContentBlockID=f2357ea5-d79d-4104-b242-cae3e1a3b349Dynamic=1 __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Average size of craters across the solarsystem?
thought is that lots of meteorites must fall. But it ain't necessarily so. The surface could just be very old, quite undisturbed. Frankly, I'm beginning to get suspicious about Mars. Dating the surface is entangled; so much human expectation is involved. Thanks to the wonderful rovers and orbiters, we've had the opportunity to watch Mars for these past years. (By we, I mean us poor schlubs with computers going to the websites.) OK, we've got THREE new sub-striations in gullies in five years, and... Anything else? Mars is a big place. Something must be happening, says our Earthly expectation. Mars is as big as the Earth! Before somebody dashes to correct me, here's what I mean: the land area of Earth is 148,939,100 km² and the land area of Mars is 144,798,465 km² because ALL of Mars is land area. Anyway, as I watch the surface, I'm starting to get the impression that most of the surfaces we see are old, really OLD. Has that iron meteorite been sitting there for a thousand years? A million years? A billion years? Our terrestrially trained minds want to say, A billion years? That's silly! But is it? A mud flat, a dune field, pebbles on the ground. On Earth, they are transient phenomena; take your eyes off them, something happens to them. But on Mars? Maybe the Red Planet is really the Dead Planet. (So depressing; give me back those canals!) We are SO invested; we find a new scratch in the side of a gully where there are thousands of scratches in one gully among the ten thousand gullies and we want to party all night! Doesn't mean the gullies haven't looked pretty much the same for the last 1.4 billion years. Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: Darren Garrison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 11:25 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Average size of craters across the solarsystem? On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 22:41:40 -0600, you wrote: Hi, The biggest craters are multi-ringed; they are big enough that they are called multi-ringed basins or just basins. Properly, I suppose we should call them impact features rather than craters. Not so much the biggest craters, but I'm wondering if all craters tend to be larger-- for example (no attempt at accurate figures here) if a 10 cm object hitting the moon at the top valocity for an object hitting the moon (a head on collision made a crater 5 meters across, would a 10 cm object hitting Mercury at top velocity not make a larger crater with Mercury's larger velocity? And wouldn't Mars' slower speed mean for lighter hits than for the moon (or Earth)? Which could factor into how iron meteorites are surviving to be found on the surface of Mars by the rovers, even though Mars' thinner atmosphere means less loss of speed? http://www.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/orbital.htm __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] interesting speculation Pacific Basin origin
Hi, Jerry, List, The chief theorist about the origin of the Moon was George Darwin (1845-1912, and the son of Charles Darwin). His theory was that the Earth and Moon fissioned under high initial rotation while still molten, the Moon flying off into orbit and taking the angular momentum with it, slowing the rotation of the Earth (which it has and is still doing). The day was shorter in past eras. In the Ordovician (400 mya) there were about 400 days in a year. Two studies of stromatolites show that at 700 mya, the year was 435 days (a 20.1 hour day), and at 850 mya, the year was 450 days (a 19.5 hour day). The rate of change in the length of the day varies because it is regulated by tidal friction which depends on sea depths, coastlines, other changing geological features and a lot of orbital details. But ultimately, for the theory to work, the Moon's orbital velocity at the moment that the Earth and Moon separate has to be the same as the rotation rate of the Earth! The orbital period of a satellite just above the Earth's surface (assuming we had no atmosphere) would be about 89 minutes. If the Earth was turning this fast, the surface rock (or magma) would be weightless, or very nearly. At this point a giant wave or ripple could rise and detach itself from the Earth, pulling up the material from which the Moon would be made. That's the physics of it, but George Darwin was an astronomer as well as a physicist and knew that the actual event would be messier: a lopsided planet with a huge sticky lump on it. The lumpy part above the Earth's surface would be orbiting too fast and would apply a torque that would break the Moon off (leaving the Pacific Ocean basin behind). For almost a century, this was the major theory of the origin of the Moon, its only rival being the notion that the Moon was captured by the Earth's gravity (which is a really hard trick, mathematically, like juggling chains saws... running). Remember, one of the reasons we had the Apollo program was to discover the origin of the Moon. Well, one of the scientific excuses, anyway. And indeed, the moon rocks killed George's theory dead. They were not Earth rocks of any conceivable kind. I vividly recall a long article arguing for the Darwin theory of the Moon's origin in the Journal of the British Interplanetary Society (I was a student member) in the late 1950's. It was full of equations and diagrams and graphs, but it still seemed to me to be haunted by improbability. On the other hand, Harold Jeffrys in 1924 showed, with a refined analysis of the tidal evolution of the Earth and Moon, that the Earth could not be less than 4 billion years old. In 1924, most geologists and physicists thought the Earth was about 1.2 to 1.4 billion years old and it was only 1947 when the first isotope date of 4.5 billion years was measured. The mathematical problem of calculating the change in the rate of change in the length of the day was not fully solved until 1994, so it took 120 years to work out all the details! Here's a fine piece on the history of the problem of the tidal evolution of Earth and Moon on the internet: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/moonrec.html or just Google for Recession of the Moon. As for the old Continental Drift and Other Dances, Alfred Wegener gets all the credit for sticking to the idea (even when it killed him, searching in Greenland for evidence), but an American, F. B. Taylor, had published a speculative paper suggesting continental drift in 1910 which, however, had attracted little attention, and neither had previous such suggestions by Humbolt and Fisher. Alfred Wegener (1880-1930) got all the attention (if you want to call it that) for the idea of continental drift. Here's some reviews of his 1912 book proposing it: Utter, damned rot! said the president of the American Philosophical Society. If we are to believe [this] hypothesis, we must forget everything we have learned in the last 70 years and start all over again, said another American scientist. Anyone who valued his reputation for scientific sanity would never dare support such a theory, said a major British geologist. Clearly, it was a winner. Wegener was also a meteorologist. He was the first to describe the process (now called the Wegener-Bergeron- Findeisen procedure) by which most raindrops form. A good read on Wegener: http://pangaea.org/wegener.htm Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: Gerald Flaherty [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 3:30 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] interesting speculation Pacific Basin origin Just for fun, before we understood about plate tectonics and thought that land only moved up and down, not back and forth, it was widely believed that the Pacific Ocean was, not an impact feature, but an outpact feature
Re: [meteorite-list] Dig Deeply to Seek Life on Mars
environment. They thrive, and some life gets pushed to a further, drier, colder, more radiative edge of the aquifer. Again, they adapt. They get good at handling THAT new environment. Finally, some life gets pushed right up out of the ground onto Oh No! NOT... The Surface! Ya know, there's a lot of elbow room up here. And with all this light, I can use my photosensitive spots to navigate. And, look! Here's something to eat! They adapt. THAT is how Life works. Mars has had four billion years, just like we have. IF Mars had ANY life, it would not have gone for four billion years without changing, without adapting, without the fundamental and deadly necessity of evolution having been at work. Evolution is not a choice. You can't say No, thank you, I'll just stay here in my nice cozy aquifer and multiply immortally my primitive genome just the way it is. No changes for me, please. It's not an option. So, the Principal Life Detection Instrument Package on the Mars Exploration SUV is a video camera on every corner to see if any Thing comes up to take a bite out of your (possibly edible) butt. How are they going to know if you're edible without having a nip? And, if that doesn't happen, then there won't be any microbes in the dirt, primitive organisms in the rocks and nobody living the Good Aquiferian Life for four billion years. Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: Ron Baalke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite Mailing List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 1:14 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Dig Deeply to Seek Life on Mars http://www.agu.org/sci_soc/prrl/2007-03.html Dig deeply to seek life on Mars AGU Release No. 07-03 29 January 2007 American Geophysical Union University College London Joint Release AGU Contact: Peter Weiss Public Information Manager Phone: +1-202-777-7507 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] UCL Contact: Alexandra Brew Phone: +44-(0)20-7679-9726 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] WASHINGTON - Probes seeking life on Mars must dig deeply into young craters, gullies, or recently exposed ice to have a chance of finding any living cells that were not annihilated by radiation, researchers report in a new study. One promising place to look for them is within the ice at Elysium, site of a recently discovered frozen sea, they say. Current probes designed to find life on Mars cannot drill deeply enough to find living cells that may exist well below the surface, according to the study. Although these drills may yet find signs that life once existed on Mars, the researchers say, cellular life could not survive incoming radiation within several meters [yards] of the surface. This puts any living cells beyond the reach of todayâ?Ts best drills. The study, to be published 30 January in the journal Geophysical Research Letters, maps cosmic radiation levels at various depths, taking into account surface conditions in various areas of Mars. The lead author, Lewis Dartnell of University College London, said: Finding hints that life once existed - proteins, DNA fragments, or fossils - would be a major discovery in itself, but the Holy Grail for astrobiologists is finding a living cell that we can warm up, feed nutrients, and reawaken for studying. Finding life on Mars depends on liquid water surfacing on Mars, Dartnell added, but the last time liquid water was widespread on Mars was billions of years ago. Even the hardiest cells we know of could not possibly survive the cosmic radiation levels near the surface of Mars for that long. Unlike Earth, Mars is not protected by a global magnetic field or thick atmosphere, and for billions of years it has been open to radiation from space. The researchers developed a radiation dose model and quantified variations in solar and galactic radiation that penetrates the thin Martian atmosphere down to the surface and underground. They tested three surface soil scenarios and calculated particle energies and radiation doses both on the surface and at various depths underground, allowing them to estimate the survival times of any cells. The team found that the best places to look for living cells on Mars would be within the ice at Elysium, because the frozen sea is relatively recent - it is thought to have surfaced in the last five million years - and so has been exposed to radiation for a relatively short period of time. Even here, though, any surviving cells would be out of the reach of current drills. Other ideal sites include young craters, because the recently impacted surface has been exposed to less radiation, and gullies recently discovered in the sides of craters. Those channels may have flowed with water in the last five years and brought cells to the surface from deep underground. The study was funded by the United Kingdom's Engineering and Physical Sciences Research Council (EPSRC), the Swiss National Science Foundation, and the Swiss State
[meteorite-list] THE TUCSON LULL
Hi, List, We enter the quiet time on the List, because everybody who's anybody is in Tucson. Those of us who aren't there and compulsively check for new email, don't get our dose. Meanwhile, as a substitute computer fix, may I suggest watching Nasa TV's live feed of the work going on at the International Space Station? The current six-hour spacewalk is winding down now, but it's been fascinating, and there are more spacewalks ahead for these guys. Just go to http://www.nasa.gov/ and you'll find the link to live feed (if there is one) by looking down to Humans In Space for the current date and click Watch NASA TV. You get helmet camera views of the work. You can watch'em whack sticky bolts with a hammer and everything. I like the occasional boom camera views where you can watch the Earth spinning below (at a pretty good clip) in the background. You need broadband to really experience it, but if not, http://www.space.com/ has a viewer adapted to modem use and a choice of formats. (NASA TV may have that too, but I started at Space.com, then switched to NASA TV while already connected. Interestingly, the feed never stopped but just popped up already rolling at the new site.) Watch the future, now. Sterling K. Webb __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites
Hi, Drake, ...Widmanstatten patterns are unique to meteorites. That's not true. I'll bite. In what other materials can they be found? Long considered definitive hereabouts. I quote one source: Widmanstatten pattern or Thompson structure: This pattern does not appear in terrestrial iron ores. Its presence is diagnostic in the identification of a meteorite. Looking for a definition, I found that they form when steels are cooled at a critical rate from extremely high temperatures. It consists of ferrite and pearlite and has a cross-hatched appearance due to the ferrite having formed along certain crystallographic planes. What's the likelihood of fake meteorites being made that way? Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 4:52 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites That was I, and thank you. The Nital I was using was what I use for standard metallographic sample preparation at 2% to 5%. I see now I need a much higher concentration. I did find one metallurgical error in that it states that Widmanstatten patterns are unique to meteorites. That's not true. Drake Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes Drake Doc Dameräu President, NEPRA NAR Section 614 L3CC member TRA 9934 L3 www.nepra.com www.rocketmaterials.org http://home.sprynet.com/~monel/home.htm -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:meteorite-list- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gary K. Foote Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 6:21 PM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites Hello List, I forget who was asking this morning, but Ruben Garcia has graciously allowed me to publish his in-depth article on cutting, etching and preserving iron meteorites to my site. For those interested the URL is; http://www.meteorite-dealers.com/etchingandpreservation.html Gary http://www.meteorite-dealers.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] The New Jersey Object
Hi, Jeff, drag the image to the URL address bar... Thanks for what is, to me, a new trick. Works fine and makes the pictures big enough and clear enough to see the surface features, which makes it clear that the chances this is a meteorite very small indeed. For example, it seems that the edges of those depressions that might be regmaglypts are very sharp. Atmospheric ablation never produces a sharp edge anywhere and never around a depression it's ablating out. There are parallel grooves, but they're oriented in patches which show no general orientation to each other. Some adjacent sets of grooves met at right angles to each other. There's one double groove that makes an angled turn! The Universe is surprising, but for this to be a real meteorite is too much of a surprise to ask for. Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: Jeff Kuyken [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 6:45 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] The New Jersey Object Hey Darren, The pics are larger but just shrunk to fit on the page. You can either save the image and view it normally on your computer as you might any other pic or even drag the image to the URL address bar which will enlarge it. Cheers, Jeff P.S. I remain unconvinced at this stage until someone meteoritically qualified says different! ;-) - Original Message - From: Darren Garrison To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 3:52 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] The New Jersey Object On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 23:27:34 + (GMT), you wrote: For anybody intersted in seeing the pictures that I took of the NJO, I created a short webpage of the images. They are raw from the camera, so they might take a little time to load. Thanks, Derek. www.njfossils.net/newjerseyobject.html Thanks for poting them, but unless you only took 269x202 pictures, these are just small thumbnail images. Do you have full sized ones? And do you have an opinion on meteorite or not? __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] The New Jersey Object
Hi, All if it is something thrown by some sort of explosion... Of course, it could be thrown by many other means than explosive ones. A nine second fall in the Earth's gravitational field will yield a 200 mph velocity after falling from 1300 feet. And, frankly, a six-second fall (570 feet, 130 mph) is enough to puncture that roof and ceiling. It is reported to be an 11-ounce object. Shall we have a contest to see how many ways we can think of to lob an 11-ounce chunk 600 feet high? Or maybe just turn the job over to some bored teen-agers? (I have an otherwise sane friend fascinated by potato cannons; he can lob a near-kilogram Idaho more than a kilometer! By some miracle, he has never entuberated a living target...) And yes, the FAA said it isn't one of theirs, but... Couldn't that merely mean it isn't recognizably one of theirs? They're not going to take responsibility unless you can prove it's aircraft related (obvious shape, or maybe a part number). Are the owners forbidding the object cut and tested or etched? They have yet to be persuaded to do so. So, we are speculating. Speculation is what happens when you don't know anything at all or not enough or not anything conclusive. The only definitive element is the object itself; it's the sole piece of actual evidence of anything. The NJO will either be a worthless conversation piece, or it will be a meteorite. It won't BE a meteorite until you hack off twenty grams and send it to a certified lab. (Or, in the case of an iron, have it done.) That's the price of existence... for a meteorite. Opinion has no place in it. It's a physical determination. That's all that counts. How was the nickel presence confirmed? Delaney of Rutgers, who has published on meteoritic topics, was allow to test for nickel; it was positive. As I understand it, he has not been allowed to cut, slice, window or etch. He also measured the density, which was in the range for an iron. (Knowing the dimensions, shape, and weight from early articles you could calculate the density, which I did and posted here, at 7.0 to 8.0 gm/cm^2). seeing bigger pictures makes it look odder and odder... Very odd. If the NJO is real, it has a lot of 'splaining to do. I wholly agree with tabling this topic for a month or so... Oh, Pish! Darryl; we're talking about meteorites. Isn't that what the List is for? Or is it reserved exclusively for Sale Announcements and Dealer Braggadocio? We know that you like only pretty meteorites, so this one is not really your provence, being, as it is, Butt Ugly. It may not be tested in a month, a year, or ever, given the owner's reluctance. I like the exercise of Observation, Deduction, Calculation, and Hypothesis, while waiting for actual testing and some real data, if that ever happens. (Isn't there a name for that process?) ...if it is outright fraud The neighborhood is a well-to-do, somewhat cloistered one, according to local papers; the owners of the meteorite are the owners of the property where it fell. They seem to be puzzled and uncertain about what to do, it appears, and not overjoyed by the attention they're getting. Darryl says: I'm informed the object will undergo appropriate analysis. If that is the True Skinny, the Inside Dope, wonderful! But until that event emerges from the vast darkness and deep womb of Futurity, we'll probably keep testing our powers of observation against the as-yet unspoken definitive word. Or, maybe, we're just grumpy because we can't in Tucson looking at REAL metorites. Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: Darren Garrison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 5:13 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] The New Jersey Object On Thu, 01 Feb 2007 18:08:51 -0500, you wrote: It would be cool if it were genuine, but personally, I see much to be skeptical about. I agree, seeing bigger pictures makes it look odder and odder. But the question is, if it is something thrown by some sort of explosion, shouldn't there be more debris other places, and reports of the explosion? Or if it is outright fraud, could they really be determined enough to drill a hole through their roof, their ceiling, and puch a hole in the wall? __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Dwarf Planet 'Becoming A Comet' (2003 EL61)
EL61 gone off to visit the inner solar system, not even once. How likely is it that next close encounter will have that result? Or even the next 100 close encounters? How has EL61 managed to hang onto its moons through all these close encounters? Why, after the solar system has held together for more than four billion years, should it decide to unravel right now? Is the solar system just coming apart? On the other hand, there's this: we explain 2003 EL61's extraordinary shape and fantastic spin to a Major Collision with Something. We also assume it happened in the far distant past, early in the history of the solar system (mostly because it was more crowded then and also because we don't want to think it could happen now). What if the body that collided with 2003 EL61 was a moon of Neptune? What if the collision was recent, meaning only half a billion years ago (or less) and that the collision altered EL61's orbit to make a too-close encounter and a voyage to the inner solar system possible? Now, there's a nasty thought... Which is why, instead of a news snippet with three sentences of potential information, there ought to be an actual publication, however informal, with, you know, real numbers and real calculations and real information. To modify a great movie line: Show me the numbers! Since EL61 has only been observed for 2-3 years of its 285 year orbit (1%) and the earliest prediscovery photo is 1955 (18% of an orbit ago), just how accurate are those orbital determinations and the resultant calculations? Inquiring minds want to know... My considered scientific opinion? 'Tain't happenin', dude! Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: Ron Baalke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite Mailing List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 11:32 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] Dwarf Planet 'Becoming A Comet' (2003 EL61) http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6268799.stm Dwarf planet 'becoming a comet' By Paul Rincon BBC News January 17, 2007 An unusual dwarf planet discovered in the outer Solar System could be en route to becoming the brightest comet ever known. 2003 EL61 is a large, dense, rugby-ball-shaped hunk of rock with a fast rotation rate. Professor Mike Brown has calculated that the object could be due a close encounter with the planet Neptune. If so, Neptune's gravity could catapult it into the inner Solar System as a short-period comet. If you came back in two million years, EL61 could well be a comet, said Professor Brown, from the California Institute of Technology (Caltech) in Pasadena. When it becomes a comet, it will be the brightest we will ever see. Cosmic oddball 2003 EL61 is a large object; it is as big as Pluto along its longest dimension. It is one of the largest of a swarm of icy objects that inhabit a region of the outer Solar System known as the Kuiper Belt. But it is extremely unusual: spinning on its axis every four hours, it has developed an elongated shape. 2003 EL61 is apparently composed of rock with just a thin veneer of water-ice covering its surface. Other Kuiper Belt Objects (KBOs) contain much more water-ice. Professor Brown's computer simulations show that the object is on a very unstable orbit and set for a close encounter with Neptune. The eighth planet's gravitational force could either sling the icy rock ball into the inner Solar System as a comet, out into the distant Oort Cloud region, or even into interstellar space. Orbits of Kuiper Belt Objects tend to be very stable, but the region is thought to be a reservoir for short-period comets. Occasionally, some of these objects must get tossed inward to become the fizzing lumps of ice and dust that criss-cross our cosmic neighbourhood. Shedding surface Mike Brown and his colleagues have come up with a scenario to explain 2003 EL61's physical characteristics and behaviour. About 4.5 billion years ago, the object that became 2003 EL61 was a ball, half composed of ice and half of rock - like Pluto - and about the same size as Pluto. Some time early in its history, it was smacked, edge on, by another large KBO. This broke off much of 2003 EL61's icy mantle, which coalesced to form several satellites. As expected, the satellites seem to be composed of very pure water-ice. Professor Brown suggested that some of 2003 EL61's mantle may already have made it into the inner Solar System as cometary material. The oblique impact also caused 2003 EL61 to spin rapidly. This rapid rotation elongated 2003 EL61 into the rugby ball shape we see today. It's a bit like the story of Mercury, Professor Brown explained. Mercury got hit by a large object early in the Solar System. It left mostly a big iron core, with a little bit of rock on the outside. This is mostly a rock core with a little bit of ice on the outside. Mike Brown outlined details of his
Re: [meteorite-list] CORRECTIONS TO Dwarf Planet 'Becoming A Comet'
Hi, Just to clear up a few things: EL61 is a big rock with a thin layer of snow. But it's so big and there's so much snow on a surface that size, that it amounts to all those Hale/Bopps. Some of my arithmetic last night was wrong (note to self: put on glasses, use calculator, dummie!), but the correct figures don't change the picture for the better. EL61's surface area is hard to calculate, given its odd shape, but it's about 9-10 million km^2. How do you measure the surface of that tri-axial shape? It would be just under 8 million km^2 if it were an efficient sphere, or 13 million km^2 if it were a box. EL61's shape has more surface than a sphere of the same volume, but less than the box it would fit in. Theories of packing efficiencies say a long egg is about 83% efficient, which would make EL61 about 10 million km^2. A Hale/Bopp sized object is about 33,500 km^3, so every kilometer of depth of ice on EL61 is equal to 298.5 Hale/Bopp sized objects. Every ten feet of snow on EL61 is equal to one Hale/Bopp. And every 45 cm of depth is a layer of material equivalent to the entire mass of the interplanetary dust of the Zodaical Light. If the ice on EL61's surface was one kilometer deep, its total volume would be the equivalent volume of a 270-kilometer diameter comet, a pure iceball. If the ice is ten kilometers deep, it would be the equivalent volume of a 580-kilometer diameter iceball. As huge as that volume of ice is, it's nothing compared to the total volume of 2003 EL61, which is 1,760,000,000 km^3. Another critical factor is that those volatiles are all spread out on a vast surface with the maximum ability to intercept the sun's rays, a surface of a body that is spinning so fast that every point crosses the nightside in 2 hours, guaranteeing full exposure of most of the surface and an average exposure of 50% everywhere. This is less mass than I calculated (too quickly) last night, but still more than enough to produce the results I described. I hate when you're off by more than an order of magnitude too big, but when you discover and correct it, the results are just as lousy and discouraging as before. Really annoying, and just as dangerous. Could the ice on EL61 just be very shallow, so that there's no big deal? The only source of crystalline ice (snow) on such a world is water geysers which must be driven by internal heat and pressure, like Enceledus, the moon of Saturn. This argues for some good depth of ice to reach or generate that heat and pressure. With an albedo of 0.70, the surface of 2003 EL61 is a mixture of new-fallen crystalline snow (albedo 0.90) and older icy surfaces (albedo 0.67). This suggests about 20% of 2003 EL61's surface is new fallen snow. Crystalline ice (snow) has destinctive spectral characteristics that ice (old and solid) does not. EL61's got it; its moons do not. If 20% of EL61 is covered with new snow, that suggests a fair rate of geological activity. If we had an orbiter watching it, it would probably find an active geyser or two going at any one time... Brown is using the term become a comet to describe the appearance, not the character, of 2003 EL61 if it entered the inner solar system. It confuses the listener, because he doesn't mean it IS a comet. What a comet is, is in flux right now, with all the recent missions and recoveries going on. They do not appear to be the traditional dirty snowball, but much more asteroidal. Conversely, we keep finding asteroids that may be comets. Ultimately, I think all the Small Bodies are similar with a range of volatiles that is not as wide as we thought. Comets are rockier; asteroids are wetter, than believed. The difference may be between hot and cold asteroids, rather than asteroids and comets. Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: Rob McCafferty [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 4:25 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Dwarf Planet 'Becoming A Comet' (2003 EL61) Apologies for taking selected bits. Hope it's not out of context. --- Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ''2003 EL61 is a very bright body, reflecting 70% of the light that falls on it, and it is indeed, as you would suspect from this brightness, covered with water ice. BUT, it's not old water ice, but new, freshly fallen crystalline ice, otherwise known on our planet as snow'' Curiously, Halley's comet has an abledo of less than 4%, less than that of coal or black velvet. While Halley is not necessarily typical of comets, it is agreed that comets are very dark objects. Nucleus[nuclei] sizes have been estimated by removing modelled coma brightnesses from Hubble images and for nearby comets radar measurements seem to confirm the low albedo. Cometary dust may begin as silicate grained materials mantled with organic matter
Re: [meteorite-list] Space station moves to avoid debris
Hi, Rob, Darren, List, One gram traveling at 1000 m/sec, when stopped abruptly, releases its kinetic energy, which is 1000 joules [kg x (m/s)^2]. The combustion energy of TNT is 4600 joules per gram, so that energy release is the equivalent is 217 milligrams of TNT. Doesn't sound like that much, does it? In the USA, the legal limit for fireworks is 50 milligrams of pyrotechnic material. [Code of Federal Regulations, Title 16, Volume 2, Section 1500.85]. This is the traditional M-50, or perhaps the cherry bomb. Since pyrotechnics are weaker than TNT, imagine four to eight cherry bombs concentrated on one tiny spot... Of course, today's cherry bombs are not as good as yesterday's (pre-regulation) cherry bombs, but as a child, I fractured the brass casing (3 x 12) of a shell for 37mm anti-aircraft cannon with ONE cherry bomb. No better fun for an nine-year-old than a bagful of small high explosives and a bunch of old cannon shells, is there? How thick are the walls of your space station? Your space suit? Your visor? That hose you're breathing through? Or any of the thousands of things you need to stay alive? If that gram is coming in from beyond the Earth's gravity, you could close on it at almost 20 km/sec, the equivalent is about 85 grams of TNT. Disastrous. If the orbit of a piece of rubble is not oriented with your orbit, but at an angle to it, you and the object are crossing at some vector product of your velocities. This is the most serious and likely hazard. If you were in an equatorial orbit and the rubble was in a polar orbit and you had a geometrically perfect collision, the impact velocity would be 1.414 times the orbital velocity, with each gram carrying the equivalent of 27.3 grams of TNT in kinetic energy. Known in the trade as the Chop Suey Special. Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: Rob McCafferty [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Gerald Flaherty [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 2:16 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Space station moves to avoid debris --- Gerald Flaherty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: but a centimeter sized particle traveling at those speeds?? Help. Jerry Flaherty What Darren said is how I understand it too. As for 1cm particles, nah This shield is designed to protect against micrometeorids travelling at a relative speed of 20km/s. It'll not protect you from big stuff though I suppose the relative speeds of orbital debris is likely travelling much slower. Even so, wouldn't fancy their chances against a pea sized bit of weather sat even if it ONLY had a collision speed of 1000m/s Rob McC __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] PUBLIC RADIO AT GEM AND MINERAL SHOW
Hi, The American Public Media program, Weekend America, did a six-minute piece on the Tucson Show Saturday afternoon. Two mentions of meteorites and a talk with the German dealer Kaspar von Wittenau (the story of his being arrested in Oman for hunting meteorites), as well as a non-interview (more of a listen-in) with Blaine Reed. They continually referred to meteorites in the course of describing the Show, although they didn't have much, if anything, to say about them. They're learning, though. They know they're important. And expensive. Well, it's a start at public consciousness. You can listen to the program at: http://weekendamerica.publicradio.org/programs/2007/02/03/life_of_a_dealer.html Sterling K. Webb __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Dwarf Planet 'Becoming A Comet' (2003 EL61)
System as a short-period comet. The likelihood of any close encounter repeating itself is easy to calculate. Suppose two bodies with orbital periods of 2 and 3 years respectively have a close encounter. Two years later, when the first body has returned, the slower body is still a year away from the potential encounter point. Wait another two years (four years total); the slower body is now a year past the encounter point. Only after six years will the encounter repeat. That is the product of the two orbital periods ( 2 times 3 = 6 ) and is the time between encounters, or indeed any specific configuration of the two orbits. 2003 EL61's period of 284.5 years times Neptune's period of 164.88 years is 46,900.36 years. That means that the two had an encounter like what is proposed 46,900 years before, and another such close encounter 46,900 years before that, and... Well, 21+ such encounters every million years. Since the very beginning of the solar system, they've had almost 96,000 such encounters, and in exactly NONE of them has 2003 EL61 gone off to visit the inner solar system, not even once. How likely is it that next close encounter will have that result? Or even the next 100 close encounters? How has EL61 managed to hang onto its moons through all these close encounters? Why, after the solar system has held together for more than four billion years, should it decide to unravel right now? Is the solar system just coming apart? On the other hand, there's this: we explain 2003 EL61's extraordinary shape and fantastic spin to a Major Collision with Something. We also assume it happened in the far distant past, early in the history of the solar system (mostly because it was more crowded then and also because we don't want to think it could happen now). What if the body that collided with 2003 EL61 was a moon of Neptune? What if it was only half a billion years ago (or less) and that the collision altered EL61's orbit to make a too-close encounter and a voyage to the inner solar system possible? Now, there's a nasty thought... Which is why, instead of a news snippet with three sentences of potential information, you ought to actually publish something yourself, with, you know, real numbers and real calculations and real information, Mike. To modify a great movie line: Show me the numbers! Since EL61 has only been observed for 2-3 years of its 285 year orbit (1%) and the earliest prediscovery photo is 1955 (18% of an orbit ago), just how accurate are those orbital determinations and the resultant calculations? Inquiring minds want to know... My considered scientific opinion? 'Tain't happenin', dude! Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: Ron Baalke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite Mailing List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 11:32 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] Dwarf Planet 'Becoming A Comet' (2003 EL61) http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6268799.stm Dwarf planet 'becoming a comet' By Paul Rincon BBC News January 17, 2007 An unusual dwarf planet discovered in the outer Solar System could be en route to becoming the brightest comet ever known. 2003 EL61 is a large, dense, rugby-ball-shaped hunk of rock with a fast rotation rate. Professor Mike Brown has calculated that the object could be due a close encounter with the planet Neptune. If so, Neptune's gravity could catapult it into the inner Solar System as a short-period comet. If you came back in two million years, EL61 could well be a comet, said Professor Brown, from the California Institute of Technology (Caltech) in Pasadena. When it becomes a comet, it will be the brightest we will ever see. Cosmic oddball 2003 EL61 is a large object; it is as big as Pluto along its longest dimension. It is one of the largest of a swarm of icy objects that inhabit a region of the outer Solar System known as the Kuiper Belt. But it is extremely unusual: spinning on its axis every four hours, it has developed an elongated shape. 2003 EL61 is apparently composed of rock with just a thin veneer of water-ice covering its surface. Other Kuiper Belt Objects (KBOs) contain much more water-ice. Professor Brown's computer simulations show that the object is on a very unstable orbit and set for a close encounter with Neptune. The eighth planet's gravitational force could either sling the icy rock ball into the inner Solar System as a comet, out into the distant Oort Cloud region, or even into interstellar space. Orbits of Kuiper Belt Objects tend to be very stable, but the region is thought to be a reservoir for short-period comets. Occasionally, some of these objects must get tossed inward to become the fizzing lumps of ice and dust that criss-cross our cosmic neighbourhood. Shedding surface Mike Brown and his colleagues have come up with a scenario to explain 2003 EL61's
Re: [meteorite-list] Space station moves to avoid debris
Hi, Impact Fans, Well, in previous energy calculations, I forgot to divide by two; oh, well, it's only a numerical coefficient. You can always put it in later... Such calculations are an idealization of the real process of degrading kinetic energy, a kind of summation of the process. The case of a bullet and a meteoroid of the same energy are mechanically quite different: the bullet is a high mass, low velocity case; the meteoroid is a low mass, high velocity case (at least the ones we've been talking about). In space, a bullet would behave almost exactly like it does down on Earth. On Earth, the meteoroid would just be a short streak of fire as it burned up in 2 feet of travel. The energy per unit mass of the bullet is very low; the same quantity in the meteoroid is very high. The paintflake weighs 1.0 gm, travels at 10 km/sec. E = 50,000 joules (or 50,000 joules/gm). The rifle bullet is 100 gm, travels at 1 km/sec. E = 50,000 joules (or 500 joules/gm). Despite having the same energy, the paintflake is, in one way, a hundred times more energetic. Identical energies, vastly different energy densities. Here's what happens... The bullet strikes the window of the shuttle. Slicing time down in tiny bits, the point of the bullet strikes the perspex at speed; a small cluster of metallic molecules try to occupy the same space as a cluster of glassy polymers. The puzzled kinetic energy is released in all directions, chiefly by electric and Van Der Waals forces. The crystalline structure of the metal does not allow movement of the atoms but they transfer energy along the bonds; in the macro world, a shock wave moves backwards through the bullet, likely slower than the local speed of sound. This energy is not great enough to break the metallic bonds and allow the bullet atoms to escape each other and carry the energy in all directions, and all the atoms further back in the bullet are still moving forward. Over on the glassy side, the energy is more than sufficient to break the molecular bonds along the much weaker crystalline planes of the window material; on the macro scale, it cracks. (The fact that the much more massive window is made of weaker material is crucial. If the window were a 3 slab of steel armour, the bullet would be the one to say 'uncle,' deforming, breaking, some fragments flying in all directions, the rest melting.) In the glass or perspex, fragments will spall off its backside, flying in all directions, as the crystal structure is broken, the process continuing until the bullet wins the argument about whose atoms get to occupy the disputed space. Now, the paintflake... Despite the energy of the paint atoms, the mass of the window is more than sufficient to bring them to a dead standstill by the interaction of the aforementioned electric and Van Der Waals forces in the glass AND the glass's inertia. In the flake, the energy has all routes open. Molecular bonds are broken but the energy they release only makes things worse. The atoms of the light weight flakes continue on to the target without impediment, piling on into the mess at high speed. Very quickly, the kinetic energy is distributed among the paint molecules, and then their components, individual atoms that leave their mates, electrons that leave their atoms. The process is heat, its product is plasma, tight and compressed. It expands in all directions, freely everywhere except where the window happens to be in the way. The window craters, or breaks, depending on the total energy release. In both cases, the energy is released in all directions but only by being attached to pieces of matter and only where matter is present. The energy is entirely carried by this matter UNTIL the matter is excited enough to spit out photons in the attempt to get rid of the nasty stuff. The photons don't get far; they run into other pieces of matter, churning the tight mass into a uniform high-energy state: plasma. Only the plasma situation is completely omni-directional, so it seems that bullet event is directional; there's not enough energy to randomize the motion of the atoms in the bullet. If the bullet had the same energy density as the paintflake, the events of the impact would likely be the same. Assuming a thick (massy but weak) window, the bullet would transform into plasma at the point of contact, THEN blow out the entire crew cabin of the shuttle (10,000 times more energy than that little paintflake). The actual paintflake that hit the shuttle window was likely 0.10 gram (or less), not 1.0 gram, so it only damaged the window. Lucky. The chief difference is whether the energy event is big enough to convert the matter carrying the energy from the solid state, however fractured and fragmented, into the old atom free-for-all extremely dissociated state of plasma. It's whether you reach that phase transition that distinguishes the two kinds of events. Sterling K. Webb
Re: [meteorite-list] Bright Light Spotted in Missouri Sky
Hi, It was widely seen: Missouri, Illinois, Iowa, and Wisconsin. No indication or mention of direction so far. Sterling K. Webb --- http://www.katc.com/Global/story.asp?S=6037565 MILWAUKEE (AP) - From southeastern Wisconsin to as far as Des Moines, Iowa and St. Louis, people reported seeing balls of fire, possibly meteors, streaking across the sky Sunday night. No major meteor showers were expected in the northern hemisphere on Sunday night, said Jim Lattis, director of the University of Wisconsin-Madison astronomy department's Space Place. But he said it was possible that a minor shower may have been what prompted calls to authorities. The National Weather Service's Sullivan office said reports were called in from Iowa, northern Illinois and on up to Green Bay. Dozens of people throughout the St. Louis region and Illinois reported small objects that looked like bright lights or something burning, with flaming tails behind some of them, said Ken Tretter, with the Missouri State Highway Patrol in St. Louis. In Wisconsin, a Waukesha County dispatch supervisor said two callers reported a sighting around 8:15 p.m. The Winnebago County Sheriff's Department said it received calls from Oshkosh, Ripon, Appleton, Neenah, and Pulaski, among others. A preliminary report Sunday indicated that the lights were from a meteor, said Maj. April Cunningham, a spokeswoman for North American Aerospace Defense Command, or NORAD, which watches for airborne threats to the United States and Canada. We had a pilot reporting seeing a meteor and that's really all the information we have tonight, Cunningham said. - Original Message - From: Ron Baalke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite Mailing List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 11:19 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] Bright Light Spotted in Missouri Sky http://www.myfoxstl.com/myfox/pages/News/Detail?contentId=2275136version=1locale=EN-USlayoutCode=TSTYpageId=3.2.1 Bright Light Spotted in the Sky MyFox (St. Louis, Missouri) February 4, 2007 We've had several reports Sunday night of a big ball of green light that was seen in the sky heading towards the north. Several area police agencies also received calls from people 9 who saw the strange light. It was seen just before 8 pm local time. The Missouri Highway Patrol reported sightings from as far south as Cape Girardeau, and as far west as Jefferson City. The St. Francois County Sheriff's Departments tells FOX 2 News that have a report indicating the light is being investigated by FEMA, NORAD, and the FAA, and it might have been either a meteorite shower or space debris burning in the atmosphere. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] fireball over midwest
Hi, somewhere between Beardstown and St Louis... My back yard, give or take 30 miles or so. A stretch of low population density, a rural area with some vertical (for the midwest) topography, not flat like Kansas or central Illinois, a goodly percentage of wooded land, the west side of the Illinois River valley. Tonight is expected to be the coldest night of the year, and one or more inches of snow is predicted. Not exactly the ideal recovery zone... The Nininger tactic of advertising in a multitude of small town papers comes to mind Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: Chris Peterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 11:56 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] fireball over midwest Contrary to the article posted by Ron, the fireball was traveling mainly north to south, and it looks like most of the action was over west central Illinois. It was west of Champaign. I have independent reports from Beardstown and Lewistown (30 miles apart) of sonic booms after the fireball passed overhead, with short enough time delays to suggest that the object was fairly low at that point (15-20 miles). One witness also reported electrophonic noise. Termination was probably somewhere between Beardstown and St Louis. I'm not investigating this fireball myself, but thought I'd pass along the information that has come my way. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: Edwin Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 9:21 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] fireball over midwest Hello list members. Received two frantic calls from hunters who say there was a huge meteor over Illinois, Indiana and reports from Missouri. It was talked about by Paul Harvey this morning and it sounds like something large came in. Does anyone have more details? Thanks, E.T. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] fireball over midwest
Hi, The original report Ron posted covers the region from 25-30 miles north of St. Louis to as far south as Cape Girardeau, a stretch of perhaps 130 miles or more. From Beardstown to Cape Girardeau is more like 200 miles. If it was at 15-20 miles altitude at Beardstown, this would be a very shallow trajectory. Always possible (if this is true) that it was the extended progressive breakup of a larger object. A shallow trajectory, of course, is more likely to drop an intact meteoroid and elevate its status to meteorite. As for the northerly direction of travel, please note that it is Fox News, who have most things backwards... Below is another news report. Sterling K. Webb - http://www.kcci.com/news/10933402/detail.html MILWAUKEE -- Balls of fire streaking across the sky Sunday night from Wisconsin to Iowa were from a meteor, according to the North American Aerospace Defense Command, which watches for airborne threats to the U.S. and Canada. Jim Lattis is with the astronomy department at the University of Wisconsin at Madison. He said no major meteor showers were expected in the northern hemisphere -- but it was possible that a minor shower may have prompted the calls to authorities. The National Weather Service reports calls from Iowa, northern Illinois and on up to Green Bay as well as in the St. Louis region. - Original Message - From: Chris Peterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 11:56 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] fireball over midwest Contrary to the article posted by Ron, the fireball was traveling mainly north to south, and it looks like most of the action was over west central Illinois. It was west of Champaign. I have independent reports from Beardstown and Lewistown (30 miles apart) of sonic booms after the fireball passed overhead, with short enough time delays to suggest that the object was fairly low at that point (15-20 miles). One witness also reported electrophonic noise. Termination was probably somewhere between Beardstown and St Louis. I'm not investigating this fireball myself, but thought I'd pass along the information that has come my way. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: Edwin Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 9:21 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] fireball over midwest Hello list members. Received two frantic calls from hunters who say there was a huge meteor over Illinois, Indiana and reports from Missouri. It was talked about by Paul Harvey this morning and it sounds like something large came in. Does anyone have more details? Thanks, E.T. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] fireball over midwest NUMBER THREE
Hi, This is an earlier piece from Fox News nationally, but I include it here because it mentions two other sighting locations: Alton and Bunker Hill, Illinois. A vector drawn through these two towns precisely parallels a vector drawn through Beardstown and Lewistown, but the two vectors are at a distance of 75-80 miles apart. They do not point toward Gape Girardeau, Missouri. If the object passed between the Beardstown- Lewistown line and the Alton-BunkerHill line, its heading would be about 180 degrees and take it not too far west of Cape Girardeau. The heading of 180 suggests a possibility: one of the 500-odd large fragments of a certain Chinese polar satellite which would indeed have a shallow trajectory and a low entry velocity. Assuming we're tracking those chunks, we may know before long, or not. Sterling K. Webb (story follows) http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,250323,00.html Possible Meteors Light Up Midwestern Skies Monday, February 05, 2007 ST. LOUIS - Dozens of people in eastern and central Missouri and parts of Illinois reported seeing flaming objects falling from the sky Sunday evening. People reported small objects that looked like bright lights or something burning, with flaming tails behind some of them, said Ken Tretter, with the Missouri State Highway Patrol in St. Louis. He said the reports came in from a widespread area, including St. Louis, Cape Girardeau and Pettis County in Missouri and near Alton and Bunker Hill in Illinois. A preliminary report Sunday indicated that the lights were from a meteor, said Maj. April Cunningham, a spokeswoman for North American Aerospace Defense Command, or NORAD, which watches for airborne threats to the United States and Canada. We had a pilot reporting seeing a meteor and that's really all the information we have tonight, Cunningham said. - Original Message - From: Chris Peterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 11:56 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] fireball over midwest Contrary to the article posted by Ron, the fireball was traveling mainly north to south, and it looks like most of the action was over west central Illinois. It was west of Champaign. I have independent reports from Beardstown and Lewistown (30 miles apart) of sonic booms after the fireball passed overhead, with short enough time delays to suggest that the object was fairly low at that point (15-20 miles). One witness also reported electrophonic noise. Termination was probably somewhere between Beardstown and St Louis. I'm not investigating this fireball myself, but thought I'd pass along the information that has come my way. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: Edwin Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 9:21 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] fireball over midwest Hello list members. Received two frantic calls from hunters who say there was a huge meteor over Illinois, Indiana and reports from Missouri. It was talked about by Paul Harvey this morning and it sounds like something large came in. Does anyone have more details? Thanks, E.T. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] fireball over midwest
Hi, If it had a 45-degree angle of descent at Champaign or Beardstown it would intersect the ground at a distance south of the observation equal to its altitude at the point of observation. I recall a longish thread some years ago, in which Rob Matson discussed the mathematics of angle observation from the ground and demonstrated, I believe, that determining the actual angle is impossible without multiple observations, however detailed any one observation may be. With sightings from Appleton, Wisconsin to Cape Girardeau, Missouri (575 miles), and assuming it lit up at 60 miles altitude and dropped to zero in 575 miles, produces a 6 degree angle of descent in the straight-line approximation. Of course, it isn't a straight line... A 100 mile descent from 15-20 miles altitude from Beardstown would bring it down north of St. Louis, in my backyard literally (goes to look for craters). A 100 mile descent from 15-20 miles altitude from Lewistown would bring it down 20 miles inside Illinois. Today's newspaper accounts in St. Louis don't sound like local Missouri witnesses saw something on their far Northern horizon, which would be too cluttered to see within 10 degrees of the horizon almost everywhere: The St. Louis Post-Dispatch reports that calls flooded 911 operators and area police departments, the Missouri Highway Patrol said. Callers described the spectacle in various ways, some saying it looked like a plane crash and others calling it a ball of fire in the sky. Sterling PS. I see Susan beat me to the backyard joke. - Original Message - From: Chris Peterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 1:05 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] fireball over midwest Note that my estimates were very speculative, based on limited reports. An experienced observer in Champaign reported it to his west following an approximately 45° angle of descent. So it doesn't sound like this was very shallow. I haven't read anything (yet) to suggest that any of the more southern witnesses saw the meteor near them. It is not unusual to see a meteor 150 miles away; in the absence of other evidence, my thinking is that the object was fairly low at Beardstown, didn't travel much farther south, and the witnesses to the south were simply seeing it far to their north. The speed and duration suggest a ground path perhaps 100 miles long. More reports would be good. Following the Russian rocket body decay over Colorado last month, Fox news called it a Quadrantid meteor shower from an extinct constellation. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Chris Peterson [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 11:45 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] fireball over midwest Hi, The original report Ron posted covers the region from 25-30 miles north of St. Louis to as far south as Cape Girardeau, a stretch of perhaps 130 miles or more. From Beardstown to Cape Girardeau is more like 200 miles. If it was at 15-20 miles altitude at Beardstown, this would be a very shallow trajectory. Always possible (if this is true) that it was the extended progressive breakup of a larger object. A shallow trajectory, of course, is more likely to drop an intact meteoroid and elevate its status to meteorite. As for the northerly direction of travel, please note that it is Fox News, who have most things backwards... Below is another news report. Sterling K. Webb __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] MISSOURI, ILLINOIS FIREBALL ALSO SEEN IN KANSAS, MINNESOTA
Hi, List, We now have reports from all or parts of Missouri, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Arkansas, and Minnesota of the Superbowl Meteor (3rd Quarter)! Here's the Kansas report (below). Interesting that it contains accounts of rumbling and popping noises when the object being described is likely 400 miles or more away! It must be an instance of the much-argued-about indirect generation of meteor sounds, electrophonically: http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2001/ast26nov_1.htm The reports seem to span about 1200 kilometers which my rusty trigonometry tells me must mean that the object lit up at a minimum of 42 miles up, probably at 50+ miles up. It must have been big, or steep, or fast, or all three in some degree. I'm beginning to suspect it was a big one. We have two factors that inhibit the likely number of observations: 1.) very cold weather, and 2.) the distraction of the Superbowl! Yet, there seem to be no shortages of reports. It was even called a flood of reports in the St. Louis area. Sterling K. Webb http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/local/16630902.htm Aerial sight was a meteor One mystery remains . where did the falling object end up? By KEVIN MURPHY The Kansas City Star That dazzling object seen falling from the sky over Missouri, Kansas and other Midwestern states Sunday evening was a meteor, though where it ended up is uncertain, experts said. Many people reported seeing the round, orange object or hearing a thunderlike sound, some of them while watching the Super Bowl on TV. Astronomers and space buffs said Monday the description was consistent with either a meteor or debris that sometimes falls to Earth from old spacecraft. The North American Aerospace Defense Command, however, determined Monday that the object was not man-made but rather a meteor, spokesman Michael Kucharek said. The command monitors the re-entry of man-made debris. People from Kansas to Minnesota to Indiana saw the object. Locally, the time of the reports varied from shortly after 7 p.m. to closer to 8 p.m., indicating there may have been more than one. Tom Pisciotta of Kansas City said he was driving home on the Kansas Turnpike south of Emporia when he saw a large orange fireball fall from the sky and disappear over the horizon to the northeast. It had a tinge of green, he said. Patty Brasell was heading home early from a Super Bowl party at 151st Street and Mission Road in Leawood when she and a friend also saw the falling round, orange object with a bright white tail. It was an incredible sight and really wonderful, Brasell said. Several people in the Kearney and Liberty areas said they heard periodic popping and rumbling sounds coming from outside. I thought it was a neighbor shooting off fireworks, said Richard Specker of Kearney. Others thought the sound was an explosion. Russ Bixby of Leavenworth County was not far from home when he saw the meteor fall and then disappear with a flash, as if it had hit ground. It was one of the more impressive things I have ever seen, Bixby said. Randy Korotev, research associate professor of Earth and planetary science at Washington University in St. Louis, said a flash doesn't mean a meteor landed. Meteors can flash while bursting apart in the sky, he said. The rumbling sounds people heard, he said, were probably sonic booms. Meteors that reach the Earth are usually never found because the Earth is covered mostly by water and undeveloped land. Steve Arnold, noted for finding a pallasite meteorite in Kansas in 2005, said pinpointing where a meteorite lands is very difficult. These things will burn out 12 miles or so above the Earth, Arnold said. If someone is in Emporia and it looks like it disappears over the horizon, it could literally be in Illinois. It's an optical illusion that it looks super near. It sounds like you guys got a light show a dozen other states got. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] MISSOURI, ILLINOIS FIREBALL ALSO SEEN IN KANSAS, MINNESOTA
Hi, Steve, Speed of sound in air varies with the temperature of the air, 331.4 meters/second plus 0.6 times Temp (in C), but for government work, just figure 4 seconds to the mile. For the 600 miles from above Wisconsin to the middle of Kansas, 2400 seconds or 40 minutes. From the St. Louis area to Kansas, 20 minutes! From the St. Louis area to Liberty, MO, 15 minutes! Steal an F-18 from Boeing in St. Louis and you could beat the sound there. Lightspeed propagation delay, from above Wisconsin to the middle of Kansas? About 2 milliseconds! From the St. Louis area to Kansas? About 1 millisecond! Completely imperceptible. Particularly as the delay to SEE it is the same as the delay to HEAR it! Sight and Sound (via VLF waves) arrive at the same time -- No Delay. http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2001/ast26nov_1.htm It really does happen. Makes reports confusing to sort out. At the terminal point, sight and sound (of termination) are virtually simultaneous. Further out, there's a delay between them. Further out still, there's no sound. Still further out, sound returns as the VLF electrophonic sounds, which are not produced by the the termination event but by the trail leading to it, are received. The sequence with distance is big noise, less noise, no noise, then different noise: hissing, snapping, frying bacon, rumbling, muttering, crackling, at great distances. Whether or not that electrophonic sound is heard depends if and what kind of receivers are on the ground around the hearer. We don't really know the full range of sounds that can be produced electrophocially. And their simultaneity makes the sound accepted as sound automatically. Wow! You heard it, too? How far can physical sound waves be detected? The first atom bomb (0.018 MegaTon) was heard 215 miles away. Tunguska was heard 600 to 800 miles away. (This one wasn't that loud!) As the magnitude increases, the sound wave and the shock wave are the same thing. Hours after Chicxulub, on the other side of the planet, sleeping dinosaurs are rudely awakened by What the Hell was THAT? But the REALLY big news is that a reporter got a quote right! Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 12:13 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] MISSOURI, ILLINOIS FIREBALL ALSO SEEN IN KANSAS, MINNESOTA Hello Sterling and List, Someone do the math for me, how long would it take for noise to travel from the Saint Louis area to Liberty Missouri? If they heard something at the same time they saw something, I would have to be a bit skeptical from that distance. It might be a coincidence or some active imaginations. It is possible that the noise did occur at an appropriate delayed time after the visual light appearance. Oh, and by the way, I am not sure if the rest of Murphy's story is correct, but I want to go on the record as saying that he did get my quote right. Steve --- In a message dated 2/6/2007 4:10:56 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Here's the Kansas report (below). Interesting that it contains accounts of rumbling and popping noises when the object being described is likely 400 miles or more away! It must be an instance of the much-argued-about indirect generation of meteor sounds, electrophonically: http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2001/ast26nov_1.htm Sterling K. Webb http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/local/16630902.htm Aerial sight was a meteor One mystery remains . where did the falling object end up? By KEVIN MURPHY The Kansas City Star Many people reported seeing the round, orange object or hearing a thunderlike sound, some of them while watching the Super Bowl on TV. Several people in the Kearney and Liberty areas said they heard periodic popping and rumbling sounds coming from outside. I thought it was a neighbor shooting off fireworks, said Richard Specker of Kearney. Others thought the sound was an explosion. The rumbling sounds people heard, he said, were probably sonic booms. Steve Arnold, noted for finding a pallasite meteorite in Kansas in 2005, said pinpointing where a meteorite lands is very difficult. These things will burn out 12 miles or so above the Earth, Arnold said. If someone is in Emporia and it looks like it disappears over the horizon, it could literally be in Illinois. It's an optical illusion that it looks super near. It sounds like you guys got a light show a dozen other states got. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA TV Commercial
Hi, Greg, List, it was a stunt farmer they used :-) Now there's something you don't see on every resume: Occupation: Stunt Farmer I like that... It's something you could toss into casual conversation: I used to be a Stunt Farmer, until I injured my pitchfork hand... Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: Greg Hupe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 7:03 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] NASA TV Commercial Hi Listees, I was just watching The Science Channel and there was a commercial by NASA stating they have just tested a Ground Penetrating Radar on a farm, found a 154 pound meteorite and that the technology will be used in future Mars missions. Towards the end, there is a picture of a farmer holding a pitch fort with a disgruntled look on his face. The narrator then goes on and says, ...and the farmer would like Mars to quit throwing its space junk in his field. This commercial is referring to when NASA tested this equipment on the farm that team Arnold/Mani have been finding Brenham meteorites on. Pretty cool commercial even though it was a stunt farmer they used :-) Best regards, Greg Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection NaturesVault (eBay) [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.LunarRock.com IMCA 3163 __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite kills two nomads in India
Hi, The Bundi District is is the SE portion of Rajasthan State, more than 200 miles from the Pakistani border. It is more than 200 miles south of New Dehli, and far, far from Jammu and Kashmir, so the stray artillery shell is unlikely, at least in the context of any military conflict. Doesn't mean it's a meteorite, though... Unlikely, but not impossible, I suppose. To check the location just go to Google Maps and enter Bundi Rajasthan India and you're there. Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 7:39 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite kills two nomads in India Dear listees, please find attached a recent press release from THE HINDU news press. The report of the incident mentiones a crater but no sound and light phenomena before the blast. To me it rather seems that a mislead Pakistani (or Indian) artillery shell is the culprit but I'am open to other opinions. Suspected meteorite kills two nomads Hindu - Chennai,India 8 (PTI): A suspected meteorite claimed the lives of two nomads and injured five others today at Banchola village in Rajasthan's Bundi district, police said. ... http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/004200702081568.htm Cheers Svend Buhl www.niger-meteorite-recon.de __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite kills two nomads in India
Hi, List, I think Svend has hit on the most likely explanation for this incident. Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: Dr. Svend Buhl [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 1:42 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite kills two nomads in India Hi Sterling, others, you are correct. I had in mind other similar incidents where people took apart ordnance in order to sell the metal for scrap. Please view this article for a similar report from the Bathinda District further north. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/38603093.cms Most of these accidents have in common that there is no one left to report about the chain of actions that lead to the blast. Best regards Svend www.niger-meteorite-recon.de - Original Message - From: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 8:09 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite kills two nomads in India Hi, The Bundi District is is the SE portion of Rajasthan State, more than 200 miles from the Pakistani border. It is more than 200 miles south of New Dehli, and far, far from Jammu and Kashmir, so the stray artillery shell is unlikely, at least in the context of any military conflict. Doesn't mean it's a meteorite, though... Unlikely, but not impossible, I suppose. To check the location just go to Google Maps and enter Bundi Rajasthan India and you're there. Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 7:39 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite kills two nomads in India Dear listees, please find attached a recent press release from THE HINDU news press. The report of the incident mentiones a crater but no sound and light phenomena before the blast. To me it rather seems that a mislead Pakistani (or Indian) artillery shell is the culprit but I'am open to other opinions. Suspected meteorite kills two nomads Hindu - Chennai,India 8 (PTI): A suspected meteorite claimed the lives of two nomads and injured five others today at Banchola village in Rajasthan's Bundi district, police said. ... http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/004200702081568.htm Cheers Svend Buhl www.niger-meteorite-recon.de __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] www.venusmeteorite.com - what are your opinions on this claim
Hi, Randall, Ken, Larry, List, Some points here. Venus meteorites possible? Yes. Objection: Venus' thick atmosphere. Well, in theory, Mars' thin atmosphere is sufficient to consume small objects moving from the surface at Mars' escape velocity, so in theory, they can't get here either, but somehow, they manage to do it. Moreover, examination of Mars' rocks shows that some were not subjected to any high level of shock. So, how rocks get gently knocked off any planet with an atmosphere is presently pretty much of a mystery. Neither do any of the Mars' rocks show any signs of an ancient (Martian) ablation before they arrived here. [I have a theory, of course, but not room enough in this margin to write it down. If anyone has a taste for plasmamagnetohydrodynamics, I'll email it to you.] The pioneering simulations of interplanetary transfer of material by impact were done by Brett Gladman* in the mid 1990's (as soon as we found out that rocks could get here from Mars). They've been repeated and improved for a decade, and yes, rocks from Venus (and Mercury) can get to Earth. In fact, these simulations (of 100,000's of random particles) show that the number of Venusites should be about half the number of Marsites. (Mercurites much less common; about 6-7% of Marsites.) *The exchange of impact ejecta between terrestrial planets, by Brett J. Gladman, Joseph A. Burns, Martin Duncan, Pascal Lee and Harold F. Levison, Science, 1996. Can you speculate what would a inner-planet meteorite look like? Not wanting to offend, but on the outside, all freshly fallen meteorites look very much alike. In the inside, it's a different story. What Venusian rock would look like is speculative, except that much of the Venusian surface is basaltic. So, a Venusian meteorite would most likely be a basalt, and would in many ways, greatly resemble a terrestrial rock. We have, therefore, the odd situation that the very thing that makes a rock a Venusian candidate is the thing that makes people dismiss it. Larry has put his finger right on the key difference: argon. OK, argon and neon, but mostly argon. Most of the argon in the Earth's atmosphere is argon-40. We presume that it got there by decay from the potassium-40 in the rocks of the Earth. There is a little bit of argon-36 which (we presume) is left over from the solar nebula. The terrestrial 40/36 ratio is 400-to-one. But Venus? The Venusian 40/36 ratio is one-to-one. It is inexplicable. It can't be left over from the solar nebula. Can Venus be that depleted in potassium? Or has it never had vulcanism? Both are ridiculous. It just doesn't make any sense. It's a mystery. That's data for you, bless it's heart. Moreover, Venus' surface is recent (meaning about half a billion years). The whole planet was surface melted, possibly to the depth of the crust; the atmospheric argon of Venus should be mostly rock-released argon-40. And argon is too heavy to be lost easily from the atmosphere. However that 50/50 ratio got there, it means that if you're going to test a Venus rock for anything, the one thing you want to do is ARGON ISOTOPES. (Well, all the nobles. There is also an excess of neon, but not the other nobles.) It was, after all, how we recognized that those odd SNC meteorites were from Mars: their unique noble gas ratios matched the Viking data. I guarantee one thing: the noble gas ratios of a real Venus rock will be WEIRD, whatever the details. Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: ken newton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Randall Gregory [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 4:03 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] www.venusmeteorite.com - what are your opinions on this claim Randall, I think we would all be interested in seeing photos of the crater you found and your suspect meteorites rather than the roundabout way you began this discussion. As to whether anyone can assist you, depends if you are seeking truth or a preconceived idea. If you are really seeking the truth, I offer one piece of advice, don't rely on your own conclusions. Let the evidence (test results) as evaluated by two experts be the final say so. If the first does not lead you where you thought it might, get a second opinion of the evidence and if nothing has changed, let it drop. Sadly, there are too many persons that have obsessed over simple objects to their folly. Instead of heeding correct expert analyses they jump to the next expert hoping for a different result, critical of any who do not share their imagined expectation. Why can't it be this rare thing or that rare thing they ask. (see - http://tinyurl.com/34zlbf) The fruitage of obsession is frustration and paranoia. Not a good road to be on. Best Wishes on the recovery of the main mass, Ken Newton Randall Gregory wrote: Ken, Thank you for you reply
Re: [meteorite-list] Ebay auction question
Hi, Darren, and All, The seller of this piece of slag doesn't claim to have sold such an 80-lb meteorite himself, only that one was sold. If he did, he got no feedback, since his feedback is zero, with no positives and no negatives since 2003. A search of completed auctions offered at over $100,000 for Meteorites only reaches back 30 days, but it reveals just 27 unsold six-digit rocks from Goren The Giant Jpeg-Mailer Lindfors and an Aston-Martin DB9 Meteorite (by far the best meteorite of the bunch)! I'd much rather have the Aston Martin than a fistful of Swedish field stones. Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: Darren Garrison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 7:16 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Ebay auction question Was there an 80 lb meteorite that sold for 120 thousand in December, as mentioned in the auction for this piece of slag? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=200078967462 __ __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Eyewitness Account of the Holbrook Fall
Hi, Nice eyewitness account of the Holbrook fall. Sterling K. Webb TEMPE RESIDENT REMEMBERS METEOR'S PLUNGE 86 YEARS AGO 30 May 1998 MESA, Ariz. (AP) _ Pauline McCleve of Tempe doesn't need to go to the movies to see scary scenes of meteors streaking toward frightened people. She can just rerun one of the memories in her head. Now 103, McCleve remembers the explosion in the sky when a rock from outer space fell near Holbrook in northern Arizona on July 19, 1912. ``That was the loudest sound I ever heard in my life,'' she recalled recently. ``There was no sound from us except a gasp of terror.'' She was 17, standing outside her family home in Holbrook with her parents and some of her 10 brothers and sisters. The meteor dominated the early evening sky. ``It was coming right toward us. We thought we were going to die. ``The closer it came, the more frightened we were. We just stood there paralyzed.'' The boom was heard as far away as 100 miles north and south of the city, according to newspaper accounts from that week. ``People ran into the streets and stared at the sky,'' the Holbrook News reported. Witnesses in Winslow, 30 miles farther west, saw a smoky trail streaking eastward toward Holbrook. McCleve remembered it as a glowing fireball with a bright tail. The boom came from a chunk of asteroid shattering into thousands of pieces. It probably was about the size of an office desk when it first entered the atmosphere, according to Carleton Moore, director of the Arizona State University Center of Meteorite Studies. ``Holbrook is still the only observed fall in Arizona,'' Moore said. ``All the other meteorites in Arizona have just been found sitting on the ground.'' Observed falls, in which a meteorite is seen in the air and then recovered on the ground, occur only about once every two or three years anywhere in the world. Several pieces of the dense black stone now sit in one of the center's public display cases on campus, including the biggest chunk that hit the ground, weighing 14 pounds, and tiny bits the size of peas. McCleve remembered, ``It exploded like shrapnel.'' The pieces landed in a 3-mile-long ellipse centered about six miles east of Holbrook. One baseball-sized chunk knocked the limb off a tree. ``Papa said, `Oh, it missed us, but that landed very close. I'll go out in the morning and look for it.''' Other folks had the same idea, and many of them went out to collect pieces of the dense black stones. More than 14,000 pieces were collected that summer, mostly from the surface of the ground, but some of the largest were embedded up to 6 inches deep. Many were purchased by a Philadelphia collector, Warren Foote, who wrote the first scientific paper about the Holbrook meteorite four months later. McCleve's father, Richard Decatur Greer, and her younger brother, Pratt Greer, earned nearly $2,000 gathering and selling pieces of the Holbrook meteorite, she said. The man she married the following year, James Cyrus McCleve, made $400. ``It was hard times, and everybody was glad to get what they could,'' she said. In 1912, $2,000 was enough to buy a modest home. About 2,000 additional pieces of the Holbrook meteorite have been found since 1912, some as recently as 1991. Moore gave a talk about meteorites to the Kiwanis Club at the Friendship Village retirement center in Tempe last month. Afterward, he received a note that McCleve, a resident of the center, would like to talk with him. Some of the pieces of the Holbrook meteorite at ASU were part of Foote's collection, so some may have originally been picked up by McCleve's father, Moore said. McCleve has remembered the meteor many times in the past 86 years. ``That was the most terrifying time in all my years,'' she said, ``Those few seconds of the meteor coming toward us.'' http://www.swanet.org/ telnet://aztec2.asu.edu Southwestern Archaeology (SWA) - History, Archaeology, and Anthropology of the American Southwest! __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Larry's Holbrook Holy Grail Find
Hi, Everybody Nothing that says the larger ones are found in the furthest part of the strewnfield. Actually, Norton's Rocks From Space (2nd Edition, pp. 70-72) says just that: The more massive meteoroids, with their greater kinetic energy... travel further down the major axis of the distribution ellipse before impacting Earth. He shows a map of the Homestead, Iowa strewnfield showing its distribution by weight, and for a recent site. He does say that with larger fields or ones with more numerous small fragments, this distribution may be concealed or hard to map. Of course, Holbrook is a classic fall of many small fragments, but presumably IF you had a map that charted the find location of EVERY piece by weight, some such pattern would appear. C of M says, a shower of stones fell, estimated to number 14,000, of total weight about 481lb (218kg), with individuals weighing from 6.6kg to a few milligrams. Where'd that 14-pounder (6696 gm) fall? Anybody know? Here's a paper on the distribution of sizes (not locations): http://www.iop.org/EJ/article/0295-5075/43/5/598/node4.html They say Holbrook is the product of two breakups, one after the other, when the largest fragment then re-fragmented again. I just posted a nice eyewitness account of the Holbrook fall that I ran across. I note particularly the remark in that account that says all the larger pieces were embedded six inches or more in the soil and all the smaller pieces were found on the surface of the ground. Perhaps the really BIG Holbrooks are still down there? Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: DNAndrews [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 10:53 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Larry's Holbrook Holy Grail Find Hola Johnny Q, You may be right, but as large as that piece was, it might have taken a couple of years or so for it to be washed or eroded out. But you are right, it was found near the top of a moundjust slightly down from the top. Even one fragment was found under a cow pie. ;-) The miniscule 69 gms. I found that day (largest fragment 43 gms...one of my better days), just didn't seem worth fussing over after Larry's whopper Holy Grail find. ;-) I hope we can post some pictures with some meaning and size scale to it. I have some. The pictures Mark posted (thanks Mark) have no indication as to size. Also, I think that minus the fragment weights, should be worded plus the fragment weights. I know that piece is at least a kilo in weight. Maybe the largest Holbrook in 30 yrs. or so? Maybe Steve Schoner could refresh our memory on his/or others finds? I know he has found some large ones in the past. As far as Bernd's question as to the distribution of large to small stones, I see no pattern whatsoever. Seems to my personal experience, the larger ones are in the middle of the north side. However, there are records of 5 lbs. found on the south side in 1969. (Everet Gibson, I believe). I/we've found a lot of stuff on the south side, but as to when I was there, nothing of size larger than 20 gmsthen came Maria last year. She found 100g or so of an individual in the eastern past on the south side. Nothing that says the larger ones are found in the furthest part of the strewnfield. I've been working on finding things further from the horizontal and vertical plane of the field. I feel in the last few years that we have expanded the 2 mile x 1/2 mile rule by quite a bit. I'm only sharing this info because it really isn't easy to just walk in here and find something substantial. WellI take that back...Larry just did it. Congrats to Larrydon't know how you did it, but you did it. Dave (Sending this as plain text in hopes it will be posted) __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] real men meteorites
Hi, Martin, List, If you dream about dragging away big meteorites through a frosty landscape, take a look at this video (despite the low quality): http://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/permanent/meteorites/media/real/capeyork.ram (It requires the use of Real Player exclusively.) Hauling off AHNIGHITO The Tent (as well as The Dog and The Woman. Now, THAT'S a piece of heavy lifting! Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: Martin Altmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 2:31 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] real men meteorites http://www.goldprospectors.org/magazine/archive_images/meteorite.jpg :-) __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Mars Exploration Rovers Update - February 16, 2007
Gee, as one who has embarassed himself often enough on this List with orders of magnitude and the perils of converting units of measurement, I'm thinking that someone might want to re-think the math of this sentence: solar power levels were 312 watt-hours (a watt-hour is the amount of power needed to light a 100-watt bulb for one hour) Either that, or teach me the calculation so I can persuade my local power utility that their bills are 100 times too high... Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: Ron Baalke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite Mailing List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 8:12 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Mars Exploration Rovers Update - February 16, 2007 http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/status.html SPIRIT UPDATE: Spirit Perfects the Art of Driving on Five Wheels - sol 1104-1112, February 16, 2007: Rover drivers have now refined their techniques for maneuvering on only five wheels. All of Spirit's drives during the past week ended within centimeters (inches) of the targeted endpoint. Spirit is healthy and has arrived at the rock outcrop known as Bellingshausen on the way back to Home Plate. On Feb. 10, 2007, the rover's 1,104th Martian day, or sol, of exploration, Spirit experienced a warm reset, during which the rover's computer rebooted and the rover went into auto mode, canceling activities for the weekend and awaiting instructions from Earth. This is the third time Spirit has experienced this anomaly; Spirit's twin, Opportunity, has experienced it twice. The anomaly is attributed to a well-known condition in the flight software. The rover's handlers sent new commands that activated the master sequence of activities for sol 1107 (Feb. 13, 2007). During scientific studies of targets known as Mount Darwin and Puenta Arenas in soil disturbed by the rover's tracks, Spirit's handlers noticed positioning errors in the placement of instruments on the rover's robotic arm. In response, they scheduled diagnostic tests for sol 1110 (Feb. 16, 2007). This left the team with a tough decision: remain at Bellingshausen during the long President's Day holiday weekend or head toward Home Plate with a day of driving on sol 1114 (Feb. 20, 2007). Tau measurements of atmospheric dust levels were 0.6; while solar power levels were 312 watt-hours (a watt-hour is the amount of power needed to light a 100-watt bulb for one hour). Sol-by-sol summary: Except for the sols spent in auto mode, Spirit made daily observations that included measuring atmospheric opacity caused by dust with the panoramic camera, scanning the sky for clouds with the navigation camera, and surveying the sky and ground with the miniature thermal emission spectrometer. Spirit also conducted the following activities: Sol 1104 (Feb. 10, 2007): Spirit went into auto mode. Sol 1105: Spirit remained in auto mode. Sol 1106: Spirit remained in auto mode. Sol 1107: Spirit drove to the Bellingshausen outcrop. Sol 1108: Spirit acquired panoramic camera images of Bellingshausen and navigation camera movie frames in search of clouds. Sol 1109: Spirit turned and approached a rock target known as Fabian and acquired stereo images following the drive using the navigation camera. The rover also acquired images with the panoramic camera. Sol 1110: Plans called for a rover tai-chi, which involves taking images of the contact ring of the Moessbauer spectrometer with the front hazard avoidance camera before placing the instrument on a target, and for acquiring panoramic camera images of Bellingshausen. Sol : Planned activities included collecting data on targets known as Amhor, Bantoom, Dusor, Ghasta, and Gooli with the miniature thermal emission spectrometer. Sol 1112 (Feb. 18, 2007): Planned activities included collecting data on targets known as Horz, Hastor, and Invak with the miniature thermal emission spectrometer. Odometry: As of sol 1109 (Feb. 15, 2007), Spirit's total odometry was 6,965 meters (4.3 miles). - OPPORTUNITY UPDATE: Opportunity Flips 10 Kilometers and Tests New Drive Software - sol 1077-1083, February 09, 2007: Opportunity has completed a remote sensing campaign at Cape Desire and is on the move to the next promontory, called Cabo Corrientes. Opportunity's odometer rolled past 10 kilometers (6.2 miles) during the 50.51-meter (166 feet) drive on sol 1080. By contrast, the NASA Level 1 requirements for the mission called for achieving at least 600 meters (1,969 feet) with one rover, and the mission design requirement was for 1,000 meters (3,281 feet). This is another significant milestone for Opportunity, and yet another testimony to the outstanding work done by the development and operations teams. Sol-by-sol summary: Each sol, the panoramic camera assesses atmospheric opacity (tau) at the beginning of the sol's sequence
Re: [meteorite-list] Dwarf Planet 'Becoming A Comet' (2003 EL61)
Hi, Of course, 2003 EL61 presently has water resurfacing going on, even though it orbits further out than Neptune, so it must have a source of internal heat to drive its hydrovulcanism. With its high density (3.2?), it could well be differentiated. The annoying thing is that the BBC (and only the BBC) reported Brown's remarks at a seminar as a kind of science gossip. If Brown has orbital calculations that show 2003 EL61 can be perturbed into the inner solar system, he does not mention it on his website nor has he published them. I think he got the idea from dynamicists who run computer simulations of resonances and the like, rather than an actual orbital calculation. We have observed far too little of 2003 EL61's orbit to know it precisely to determine that, at this point. It's just I don't think this thing is coming or has ever has come into the inner solar system before. After 4+ billion years in the same orbit, I think it's pretty unlikely too. That's a good thing... Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: Rob McCafferty [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jason Utas [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 5:28 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Dwarf Planet 'Becoming A Comet' (2003 EL61) In the context of what I had written I concede this is a fair point. However. I'd like to know which comets have confirmed hydrovulcanism and where the info source. I can appreciate it happens but the energy source for such an event seems lacking once beyond the ice line. I am quite willing to blame my own shortsightedness for this. It's just I don't think this thing is coming or has ever has come into the inner solar system before. It just doesn't match the pattern my half arsed look has seen. Rob McC --- Jason Utas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Rob, All, Comets are generally considered to be a thin layer of rocky material over a lot of volatites, the complete opposite. I could well be wrong on this. Virgin comets are unusually bright on their first perihelion passage. One theory is that the surface volatiles ar vapourised away leaving this outer layer of dark material. This would suggest that if EL61 is indeed, becoming a comet, this is it's first journey inward which seems most unlikely. And yet, this would all depend on the amount of hydrovolcanism on the surface of the body itself - if there were enough activity to completely resurface the2003 EL61 with ice since it experienced it's great impact, what's to say it hasn't been resurfaced since its last close perihelion? I know that some comets have geysers of their own...is there any data around that tells us how long it might take for any particular comet (I know many would be different) to completely resurface itself with ice and thus enter the inner solar system brighter than when it had last left? Regards, Jason __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] SPACE JUNK
Hi, In addition to the 700-odd pieces of China's self-shot-down satellite, many of which will work their way down to meteor like re-entries at various future dates, you can add 1100+ more pieces of defunct spaceware: http://spaceweather.com/ Australian astronomer Ray Palmer was photographing the Southern Cross from his observatory in Western Australia on Feb. 19th when a flaming plume cut across the Milky Way. I had no idea what it was, he says. It was moving very slowly and I was able to track it for 35 minutes. In mid-apparition the object exploded. Gordon Garradd of New South Wales photographed an expanding cloud filled with specks of debris. Tim Thorpe of South Australia saw it, too. Quite a surreal scene, he says. What was it? It was a mystery for almost 24 hours until satellite expert Daniel Deak matched the trajectory of the plume in Palmer's photo with the orbit of a derelict rocket booster--a Briz-M, catalog number 28944. One year ago, the Briz-M sat atop a Russian Proton rocket that left Earth on Feb. 28, 2006, carrying an Arabsat-4A communications satellite. Shortly after launch, the rocket malfunctioned, leaving the satellite in the wrong orbit and the Briz-M looping around Earth partially-filled with fuel. On Feb. 19, 2007, for reasons unknown, the fuel tanks ruptured over Australia. Jon P. Boers of the USAF Space Surveillance System confirms the ID and notes later, on the other side of the world, our radar saw 500+ pieces in that orbit. Today the count is up to fragments. [We're seeing] more fragments as the cloud expands, he explains. One thousand-plus fragments makes this a major breakup event, says Mark Matney of NASA's Orbital Debris Office at the Johnson Space Center. There is no immediate threat to the space station, but we're analyzing the orbits to assess any long-term hazard. Unlike recent high profile breakups, Briz-M is in an orbit that is difficult for most radars to see, adds Boers. The generation of element sets on all the pieces will take weeks to accomplish. Maybe the Russian junker ran into some piece of the Chinese junker? Depending on the orbit, some of this stuff will stay up for generations and some will come down (to make holes in New Hampshire ponds?) Since the Briz-M seems to have exploded in all directions, we're likely to get some pieces down before too long. There's a very colorful photo of the explosive trail, visible for 35 minutes, as the Astronomy Picture of the Day for today (02-22-07): http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/astropix.html Sterling K. Webb __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] SPACE JUNK
Hi, In addition to the 700-odd pieces of China's self-shot-down satellite, many of which will work their way down to meteor like re-entries at various future dates, you can add 1100+ more pieces of defunct spaceware: http://spaceweather.com/ Australian astronomer Ray Palmer was photographing the Southern Cross from his observatory in Western Australia on Feb. 19th when a flaming plume cut across the Milky Way. I had no idea what it was, he says. It was moving very slowly and I was able to track it for 35 minutes. In mid-apparition the object exploded. Gordon Garradd of New South Wales photographed an expanding cloud filled with specks of debris. Tim Thorpe of South Australia saw it, too. Quite a surreal scene, he says. What was it? It was a mystery for almost 24 hours until satellite expert Daniel Deak matched the trajectory of the plume in Palmer's photo with the orbit of a derelict rocket booster--a Briz-M, catalog number 28944. One year ago, the Briz-M sat atop a Russian Proton rocket that left Earth on Feb. 28, 2006, carrying an Arabsat-4A communications satellite. Shortly after launch, the rocket malfunctioned, leaving the satellite in the wrong orbit and the Briz-M looping around Earth partially-filled with fuel. On Feb. 19, 2007, for reasons unknown, the fuel tanks ruptured over Australia. Jon P. Boers of the USAF Space Surveillance System confirms the ID and notes later, on the other side of the world, our radar saw 500+ pieces in that orbit. Today the count is up to fragments. [We're seeing] more fragments as the cloud expands, he explains. One thousand-plus fragments makes this a major breakup event, says Mark Matney of NASA's Orbital Debris Office at the Johnson Space Center. There is no immediate threat to the space station, but we're analyzing the orbits to assess any long-term hazard. Unlike recent high profile breakups, Briz-M is in an orbit that is difficult for most radars to see, adds Boers. The generation of element sets on all the pieces will take weeks to accomplish. Maybe the Russian junker ran into some piece of the Chinese junker? Depending on the orbit, some of this stuff will stay up for generations and some will come down (to make holes in New Hampshire ponds?) Since the Briz-M seems to have exploded in all directions, we're likely to get some pieces down before too long. There's a very colorful photo of the explosive trail, visible for 35 minutes, as the Astronomy Picture of the Day for today (02-22-07): http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/astropix.html Sterling K. Webb __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
