Re: [Mpls] Study: Metro Smoking Bans Haven't Hurt Sales
Unsigned wrote: To all the arrogant, know-it-all liberals who've lamented the rise of conservatism and republican politics in this country the past 10 years, I have one thing to say: Look in the mirror! You've lost touch with the working middle class (historical constituency of the democratic party) and driven them over to the dark side in droves. Wake up. Considering smokers now make up around 18% of the population and the working middle class make up about 90 % of the population, it would seem that the liberals are in touch with 72% of their historical constituency. Steve Nelson Willard Hay REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Study: Metro Smoking Bans Haven't Hurt Sales
We are all the same voices saying the same things over and again believing somehow our positions will be contagious to our opposition. Smoking is dangerous to others as well as ourselves. So what? Don't tell me what I can do or not do. But what you do is affecting me and others. So what? It's your choice to be in this cloud. No. You're saying I have to tolerate this in a public place because you want freedom. So what? It's a private place and the owner can allow whatever he/she wants. No. The health of his/her employees and customers who don't smoke is as much the owner's responsibility as the right to do business, and more important than the desire to allow smoking. So what? It's all a matter of choice and you should all butt out.Smoking bans are destroying legitimate business. No. You choose to do business with the public you have a responsibility for protecting that public when they enter your place of businessjust as much as the safety of the food and the storage and the surfaces subject to contamination. Besides, all evidence points to just the opposite businesses are not closing because of the bans; they're thriving, except for those that are mismanaged in other ways, probably relying too much on alcohol to offset lousy money-handling. So what? The state, the government has no business telling bar owners and smokers how to run their lives. Full circle. Same stuff over and over. From all the same people, including yours truly. It will ever be thus. Fortunately, smoking ban opponents are whistling in the shower. The 80% of non-smokers who prefer clean air will prevail by law and by preference. The bar-owners and libertarians will conform or shut down. Better for all. Happy to close out my contributions. Andy Driscoll Saint Paul -- on 12/10/05 2:21 AM, Steve Nelson wrote: Unsigned wrote: To all the arrogant, know-it-all liberals who've lamented the rise of conservatism and republican politics in this country the past 10 years, I have one thing to say: Look in the mirror! You've lost touch with the working middle class (historical constituency of the democratic party) and driven them over to the dark side in droves. Wake up. Considering smokers now make up around 18% of the population and the working middle class make up about 90 % of the population, it would seem that the liberals are in touch with 72% of their historical constituency. Steve Nelson Willard Hay REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Study: Metro Smoking Bans Haven't Hurt Sales
Thanks Andy and AMEN! Can we all move on now? Maybe this would be a good issue with which to agree to disagree. Besides, didn't I see a request from the list manager to pause on this subject? Heidi Quezada Standish On 12/10/05, Andy Driscoll [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We are all the same voices saying the same things over and again believing somehow our positions will be contagious to our opposition. Smoking is dangerous to others as well as ourselves. So what? Don't tell me what I can do or not do. But what you do is affecting me and others. So what? It's your choice to be in this cloud. No. You're saying I have to tolerate this in a public place because you want freedom. So what? It's a private place and the owner can allow whatever he/she wants. No. The health of his/her employees and customers who don't smoke is as much the owner's responsibility as the right to do business, and more important than the desire to allow smoking. So what? It's all a matter of choice and you should all butt out.Smoking bans are destroying legitimate business. No. You choose to do business with the public you have a responsibility for protecting that public when they enter your place of business‹just as much as the safety of the food and the storage and the surfaces subject to contamination. Besides, all evidence points to just the opposite ‹ businesses are not closing because of the bans; they're thriving, except for those that are mismanaged in other ways, probably relying too much on alcohol to offset lousy money-handling. So what? The state, the government has no business telling bar owners and smokers how to run their lives. Full circle. Same stuff over and over. From all the same people, including yours truly. It will ever be thus. Fortunately, smoking ban opponents are whistling in the shower. The 80% of non-smokers who prefer clean air will prevail ‹ by law and by preference. The bar-owners and libertarians will conform or shut down. Better for all. Happy to close out my contributions. Andy Driscoll Saint Paul -- REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Study: Metro Smoking Bans Haven't Hurt Sales
And thanks to those smokers who stopped going to Molly Quinn's or stopped drinking as much when they went. It really showed support for a great bar when they needed it most. Kidding a little, but if we're going to blame the people the never went in the first place, some blame has to go to the people that stopped showing up. I was a regular at the old location, but never warmed up to the new place. Service was always slow, unless you knew someone, and it just didn't have the same charm. The pot roast was still the best in town, but it didn't draw me back. Brian Moen Hiawatha east-lake.net -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dan McGrath Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 12:57 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Minneapolis Issues Subject: Re: [Mpls] Study: Metro Smoking Bans Haven't Hurt Sales By the way, the folks I know going to Molly Quinn's when the ambience changed from an an old pub with outdoor beer garden to a poorly-disguised Embers surrounded by surface parking. Not that it wasn't worth ever going to in its latest incarnation, but I think there's some pretty good reasons beyond smoking why they went under. Nonsense. I know Matthew Lamphear, the *former* co-owner of Molly Quinn's. Business was good, and on the rise before the ban. The new location was taking off. Then the ban hit, and sales plummeted. Instantly. Matthew believed all the crap about how the non-smokers would start coming out to make up the loss, so he tried to hold on, and keep his people employed, by financing payroll on credit cards. He held a fund-raiser to build a nice outdoor patio to try to gain back some lost business. Ultimately, the non-smokers didn't make up the loss, and Matthew is likely going to lose his house as well as his business. Thanks, do-gooders. You screwed over a really nice guy with a heart of gold who was trying to do good for the neighborhood. I really liked that place. The only Irish pub in the neighborhood... And over half of it was non-smoking seating. Dan McGrath Longfellow http://www.smokeoutgary.org http://www.subversivepictures.com REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Study: Metro Smoking Bans Haven't Hurt Sales
Oh yes, only a matter of time. And one wonders when the freedoms Mr. Driscoll enjoys will also be taken? What sins of the flesh that he enjoys will be outlawed? Perhaps reading and participating in Minneapolis issues? After all it will not hurt if we curtail a few freedoms and sins for the good of society. Perhaps reading bothersome magazines, and maybe books that are not supportive of our government? Wasting electricity which is made with oil might be one. God knows the workers fighting the war in Iraq are harmed by his and our addiction to cheap oil. I hear second hand bombs and bullets are harming those workers just so Mr. Driscol can use that electricity and write on a computer that uses electricity. Oh, and how about those workers who labor in the plastic factories to make that computer case? Yes, perhaps it is just a matter of time. I hope Mr. Driscol can live with it when we pass laws that cut his own sins. For the betterment of all of us of course. After all he writes that he thinks others should just live with it. Jim Graham Ventura Village Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth. - Marcus Aurelius Life is a circle and no matter where one is standing in describing real truth, it is mere perspective of one side of the same truth, which has many sides. Each equally true. REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Study: Metro Smoking Bans Haven't Hurt Sales
Amen to that, Mr. Graham. An analog: I'm a staunch abortion pro-choicer. I'm from the ilk of if you don't like abortion, don't have one. But there's a small part of me, deep inside, that would love to hear the hew and cry of the pro-choice ban supporters (I suspect a high correlation between smoking ban proponents and abortion pro-choicers) when abortion is overturned in this country. Then they will know what it feels like to have the freedom of choice taken away, for their own good and the good of others. It's an apt analogy. You see, having an abortion is a choice. No force involved. Hmmm.oh yeah, just like arguments about the smoking ban. Sooner or later the chickens will come home to roost for people like Mr. Driscoll, be it abortion or some other FREEDOM he currently holds dear. I'm not worried. But by then their choices will have already been sold down the river. But that'll be tough luck and get over it and Live with this. It's over.the latter two quotes courtesy of Mr. Driscoll. I see a measure of a strong society as what the citizens do with those who hold an opposing viewpoint or engage in a behavior that, while personally objectionable, isn't hurting anybody because it's engaged in through free will. The facts, undebateable and undeniable, are that smoking in a bar is an exercise in free will, as is being exposed to such smoke. If it truly was an issue of public health, smoking should be banned. Let's do it, then. Anybody out there with the courage to have the stuff banned it's a public health issue, you know. Smoking ban proponents are no different in their stance than staunch pro-lifers. Both want to take choices away. I guess that's the society that they want. Sooner or later, they'll get it. Mike Thompson Windom - Original Message - From: gemgram [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Andy Driscoll [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Dan McGrath [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Minneapolis Issues mpls@mnforum.org Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 8:46 AM Subject: Re: [Mpls] Study: Metro Smoking Bans Haven't Hurt Sales Oh yes, only a matter of time. And one wonders when the freedoms Mr. Driscoll enjoys will also be taken? What sins of the flesh that he enjoys will be outlawed? Perhaps reading and participating in Minneapolis issues? After all it will not hurt if we curtail a few freedoms and sins for the good of society. Perhaps reading bothersome magazines, and maybe books that are not supportive of our government? Wasting electricity which is made with oil might be one. God knows the workers fighting the war in Iraq are harmed by his and our addiction to cheap oil. I hear second hand bombs and bullets are harming those workers just so Mr. Driscol can use that electricity and write on a computer that uses electricity. Oh, and how about those workers who labor in the plastic factories to make that computer case? Yes, perhaps it is just a matter of time. I hope Mr. Driscol can live with it when we pass laws that cut his own sins. For the betterment of all of us of course. After all he writes that he thinks others should just live with it. Jim Graham Ventura Village REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Study: Metro Smoking Bans Haven't Hurt Sales
On Thursday, December 8, 2005, at 08:46 AM, gemgram wrote: And one wonders when the freedoms Mr. Driscoll enjoys will also be taken? What sins of the flesh that he enjoys will be outlawed? Perhaps reading and participating in Minneapolis issues? On Thursday, December 8, 2005, at 09:46 AM, Michael Thompson wrote: Smoking ban proponents are no different in their stance than staunch pro-lifers. Both want to take choices away. Smoking is not a freedom per se, and smoking is not a choice for those who inhale second-hand smoke. Freedom is the unfettered ability to exercise choice as long as it does not harm others, (e.g. the old adage that we are not free to yell fire in a crowded theatre). I don't see any objection at all to an adult smoking as much as he or she wants in a space that is not affecting other people. Smoking bans protect the 80% majority of non-smokers from the unhealthy effects of second-hand smoke. Smoking in public places is that which takes choice away, not the other way around. Best wishes, Laura Laura Waterman Wittstock President and CEO Wittstock Associates 913 19th Ave SE Minneapolis, MN 55414 612-387-4915 www.laurawatermanwittstock.com REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Study: Metro Smoking Bans Haven't Hurt Sales
Take a deep breath and look at the big picture... Is it more worrisome that a couple bars *might* be snuffed out by the ban now by public policy, or should we be more concerned about dozens of lives being snuffed out every year because public policy failed to control a known killer - first and second hand smoke? I'm sorry, but running a bar that depends on smokers is something people have *chosen* to do. If you think the need for tobacco at your bar will cause your bar to die, maybe it's time to kick the habit and reinvent yourself. Ten years from now, history will shine on the side of ban proponents. You want to stay ahead of the City and County to the east, no? Bob Spaulding The Other Downtown - East Minneapolis REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Study: Metro Smoking Bans Haven't Hurt Sales
By the way, the folks I know going to Molly Quinn's when the ambience changed from an an old pub with outdoor beer garden to a poorly-disguised Embers surrounded by surface parking. Not that it wasn't worth ever going to in its latest incarnation, but I think there's some pretty good reasons beyond smoking why they went under. Bob --- Bob Spaulding [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Take a deep breath and look at the big picture... Is it more worrisome that a couple bars *might* be snuffed out by the ban now by public policy, or should we be more concerned about dozens of lives being snuffed out every year because public policy failed to control a known killer - first and second hand smoke? I'm sorry, but running a bar that depends on smokers is something people have *chosen* to do. If you think the need for tobacco at your bar will cause your bar to die, maybe it's time to kick the habit and reinvent yourself. Ten years from now, history will shine on the side of ban proponents. You want to stay ahead of the City and County to the east, no? Bob Spaulding The Other Downtown - East Minneapolis REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Study: Metro Smoking Bans Haven't Hurt Sales
There were reasons other than the smoking ban that Porter's on Nicollet closed as well. I have to say I was bummed that Molly Quinn's closed. They had the best fish and chips on the southside. I would have to say that Keegan's off Hennepin over N.E. or is the S.E. has the best ones too. Barb Lickness Whittier Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has. -- Margaret Mead REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Study: Metro Smoking Bans Haven't Hurt Sales
Laura Waterman Wittstock wrote: I don't see any objection at all to an adult smoking as much as he or she wants in a space that is not affecting other people. What if all of the people in that space have agreed to accept the risk of secondhand smoke? Smoking bans protect the 80% majority of non-smokers from the unhealthy effects of second-hand smoke. Smoking in public places is that which takes choice away, not the other way around. A large percentage of the 80% majority of non-smokers never set foot in many of the places that the smoking ban effects. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Study: Metro Smoking Bans Haven't Hurt Sales
Bob Spaulding wrote: I'm sorry, but running a bar that depends on smokers is something people have *chosen* to do. If you think the need for tobacco at your bar will cause your bar to die, maybe it's time to kick the habit and reinvent yourself. So I suppose you hold this position because nothing you have *chosen* to do, good or bad, is likely to be the subject of a ban anything school. I love how you've decided that it's now time for me to reinvent myself. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Study: Metro Smoking Bans Haven't Hurt Sales
On Thursday, December 8, 2005, at 06:34 PM, Michael Atherton wrote: Laura Waterman Wittstock wrote: I don't see any objection at all to an adult smoking as much as he or she wants in a space that is not affecting other people. What if all of the people in that space have agreed to accept the risk of secondhand smoke? Interesting question. I think some of the arguments in individual tobacco cases were based on insufficient warning of the harm caused by tobacco. Would personal liability pertain as well, i.e.could the non smoker, after having given consent later claim harm because he/she was not sufficiently warned about the danger? It doesn't seem acceptance of risk is a permanent thing. Best wishes, Laura Southeast Como Laura Waterman Wittstock President and CEO Wittstock Associates 913 19th Ave SE Minneapolis, MN 55414 612-387-4915 www.laurawatermanwittstock.com REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Study: Metro Smoking Bans Haven't Hurt Sales
By the way, the folks I know going to Molly Quinn's when the ambience changed from an an old pub with outdoor beer garden to a poorly-disguised Embers surrounded by surface parking. Not that it wasn't worth ever going to in its latest incarnation, but I think there's some pretty good reasons beyond smoking why they went under. Nonsense. I know Matthew Lamphear, the *former* co-owner of Molly Quinn's. Business was good, and on the rise before the ban. The new location was taking off. Then the ban hit, and sales plummeted. Instantly. Matthew believed all the crap about how the non-smokers would start coming out to make up the loss, so he tried to hold on, and keep his people employed, by financing payroll on credit cards. He held a fund-raiser to build a nice outdoor patio to try to gain back some lost business. Ultimately, the non-smokers didn't make up the loss, and Matthew is likely going to lose his house as well as his business. Thanks, do-gooders. You screwed over a really nice guy with a heart of gold who was trying to do good for the neighborhood. I really liked that place. The only Irish pub in the neighborhood... And over half of it was non-smoking seating. Dan McGrath Longfellow http://www.smokeoutgary.org http://www.subversivepictures.com REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Study: Metro Smoking Bans Haven't Hurt Sales
This study was entirely flawed, and biased, however. It lumps Hennepin and Ramsey Counties together, does not distinguish between food and alcohol sales, nor does it distinguish between bar and liquor store sales. Liquor stores have seen an increase in business since the smoking bans went into effect, while Minneapolis bars report losses, and many have closed. St. Paul bars which have exemptions have enjoyed *huge increases* in their sales, while Minneapolis bars and other St. Paul establishments without exemptions are going under. St. Paul has shuffled the money around benefiting some bars to the detriment of others, and Minneapolis has exported it's revenue to St. Paul. This doesn't matter to the state, which gets it's cut of the money whether it's spent in St. Paul, or Minneapolis. Were the much championed cause of a state-wide ban to emerge victorious, St. Paul would lose it's edge, and liquor stores would likely benefit, as smokers would largely stay home. Revenues to the state would then drop (and a new tax imposed on bottles purchased at liquor stores would be inevitable). The reported number of metro liquor-serving establishments which have closed since March 31st is a flat lie. Dan O'Gara's quote in the article is one of the most significant statements: The blue-collar, working man's bar, which is a big thing in the Twin Cities, is probably going to be a thing of the past if this continues. The smoking ban is one more front in the assault on the middle class in the urban core. Dan McGrath Longfellow http://www.smokeoutgary.org http://www.subversivepictures.com REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
