[NTG-context] Re: upload

[Alain Delmotte]

Hi Otared,

Le 19-01-24 à 22:56, Otared Kavian a écrit :

Hi Pablo,

Indeed the two URL you mention result t a 404 error. I 
guess the correct URL is

https://www.pragma-ade.nl

and there one may go to the appropriate tab.

Best regards: Otared


No it doesn't work. I ttried many times.

Alain




On 19 Jan 2024, at 18:34, Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context 
 wrote:


On 1/18/24 20:43, Denis Maier via ntg-context wrote:

*Von:*Alain Delmotte 
*Gesendet:* Donnerstag, 18. Januar 2024 20:04
*An:* ntg-context@ntg.nl
*Betreff:* [NTG-context] Re: upload
[...]
When I go to https://www.pragma-ade.nl, I get an 404 
Not Found

message, so I can't download the new upload !!
Works here.


Hi Denis,

I get a 404 error for both 
https://www.pragma-ade.nl/install.htm and

https://www.pragma-ade.com/install.htm.

I can update my existing installed version, but I 
wouldn’t be able to

install a brand new distribution.

Do you reach any of the urls included in my first paragraph?

Many thanks for your help,

Pablo

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Otared Kavian
e-mail: ota...@gmail.com 
Phone: +33 6 88 26 70 95





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[NTG-context] Re: upload

[Otared Kavian]

Hi Pablo,

Indeed the two URL you mention result t a 404 error. I guess the correct URL is
 https://www.pragma-ade.nl 

and there one may go to the appropriate tab.

Best regards: Otared

> On 19 Jan 2024, at 18:34, Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context 
>  wrote:
> 
> On 1/18/24 20:43, Denis Maier via ntg-context wrote:
>>> *Von:*Alain Delmotte 
>>> *Gesendet:* Donnerstag, 18. Januar 2024 20:04
>>> *An:* ntg-context@ntg.nl
>>> *Betreff:* [NTG-context] Re: upload
>>> [...]
>>> When I go to https://www.pragma-ade.nl, I get an 404 Not Found
>>> message, so I can't download the new upload !!
>>> Works here.
> 
> Hi Denis,
> 
> I get a 404 error for both https://www.pragma-ade.nl/install.htm and
> https://www.pragma-ade.com/install.htm.
> 
> I can update my existing installed version, but I wouldn’t be able to
> install a brand new distribution.
> 
> Do you reach any of the urls included in my first paragraph?
> 
> Many thanks for your help,
> 
> Pablo
> 
> ___
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> Wiki!
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e-mail: ota...@gmail.com
Phone: +33 6 88 26 70 95




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[NTG-context] Re: upload

[Denis Maier via ntg-context]

 
 
  
    
   
   
   
Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context  hat am 19.01.2024 18:34 CET geschrieben:

   
 

   
 

   
On 1/18/24 20:43, Denis Maier via ntg-context wrote:

   
>> *Von:*Alain Delmotte 

   
>> *Gesendet:* Donnerstag, 18. Januar 2024 20:04

   
>> *An:* ntg-context@ntg.nl

   
>> *Betreff:* [NTG-context] Re: upload

   
>> [...]

   
>> When I go to https://www.pragma-ade.nl, I get an 404 Not Found

   
>> message, so I can't download the new upload !!


 
 
  Works here.
  
 

   
Hi Denis,

   
 

   
I get a 404 error for both https://www.pragma-ade.nl/install.htm and

   
https://www.pragma-ade.com/install.htm.

   
 

   
I can update my existing installed version, but I wouldn’t be able to

   
install a brand new distribution.

   
 

   
Do you reach any of the urls included in my first paragraph?

   
  
    
   
  
   No. 404 here as well.
   
  
   Best,
   
  
   Denis
   
  
    
  
 

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[NTG-context] Re: Why LuaMetaTex is so slow?

[Hans Hagen]

On 1/19/2024 7:13 PM, Bruce Horrocks wrote:




On 19 Jan 2024, at 09:31, Hans Hagen  wrote:

On 1/18/2024 11:15 PM, Bruce Horrocks wrote:

On 18 Jan 2024, at 18:56, Shiv Shankar Dayal  
wrote:


I understand that why it is slow, but the problem is that the difference is too 
high.
My book has lots of math, so perhaps that is the reason.

Option 1: Buy or borrow a faster computer. You'll get your desired speed-up far 
faster than waiting for Hans to make changes, even assuming there is something 
that can be changed. I'd recommend a Mac M3 :-)


As tex is a single core process (ok, the os might delegate some file handling 
to other cores) it benefits from  jump in core speed. I use a 2017 laptop with 
a reasonable fast intel xeon.  I have a few docks spread round with different 
resolution monitors (1920x1200, 2560×1440, 4096×2160) and performance also 
depends on the connected monitor.

I'd be curious to know how much these new processors impact performance over 
time because the ages of dohbling performance every year are past.


I mentioned the Mac M3 because it's not the cores that make the difference but 
the speed of the SSD. So reading the source and writing out the result, plus 
writing/reading any intermediate files is astonishingly fast on the Mac. Also 
the RAM is on the same die as the chip so RAM access speeds are high. Even if 
the app is single-threaded, the speed increases are significant - in fact 
especially when the app is single is threaded. :-)


File caching helps a lot indeed. Just compare

  context --make

after a reboot with the second or third time after that.

Hans

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[NTG-context] Re: Why LuaMetaTex is so slow?

[Bruce Horrocks]

> On 19 Jan 2024, at 09:31, Hans Hagen  wrote:
> 
> On 1/18/2024 11:15 PM, Bruce Horrocks wrote:
>> On 18 Jan 2024, at 18:56, Shiv Shankar Dayal  
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I understand that why it is slow, but the problem is that the difference is 
>>> too high.
>>> My book has lots of math, so perhaps that is the reason.
>> Option 1: Buy or borrow a faster computer. You'll get your desired speed-up 
>> far faster than waiting for Hans to make changes, even assuming there is 
>> something that can be changed. I'd recommend a Mac M3 :-)
> 
> As tex is a single core process (ok, the os might delegate some file handling 
> to other cores) it benefits from  jump in core speed. I use a 2017 laptop 
> with a reasonable fast intel xeon.  I have a few docks spread round with 
> different resolution monitors (1920x1200, 2560×1440, 4096×2160) and 
> performance also depends on the connected monitor.
> 
> I'd be curious to know how much these new processors impact performance over 
> time because the ages of dohbling performance every year are past.

I mentioned the Mac M3 because it's not the cores that make the difference but 
the speed of the SSD. So reading the source and writing out the result, plus 
writing/reading any intermediate files is astonishingly fast on the Mac. Also 
the RAM is on the same die as the chip so RAM access speeds are high. Even if 
the app is single-threaded, the speed increases are significant - in fact 
especially when the app is single is threaded. :-)

—
Bruce Horrocks
Hampshire, UK

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[NTG-context] Re: upload

[Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context]

On 1/18/24 20:43, Denis Maier via ntg-context wrote:
>> *Von:*Alain Delmotte 
>> *Gesendet:* Donnerstag, 18. Januar 2024 20:04
>> *An:* ntg-context@ntg.nl
>> *Betreff:* [NTG-context] Re: upload
>> [...]
>> When I go to https://www.pragma-ade.nl, I get an 404 Not Found
>> message, so I can't download the new upload !!
> > Works here.

Hi Denis,

I get a 404 error for both https://www.pragma-ade.nl/install.htm and
https://www.pragma-ade.com/install.htm.

I can update my existing installed version, but I wouldn’t be able to
install a brand new distribution.

Do you reach any of the urls included in my first paragraph?

Many thanks for your help,

Pablo

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[NTG-context] Re: Why LuaMetaTex is so slow?

[Hans Hagen]

On 1/19/2024 11:00 AM, Henning Hraban Ramm wrote:

Am 19.01.24 um 10:31 schrieb Hans Hagen:

(that said: luametatex runs fine on my mobile phone)


What’s the smallest/oldest device someone tried LMTX on?
(We were joking about “Hans’ thermostate and Alan’s fridge“…)
Would it run on some 8 bit homecomputer? (I’d guess the RAM is too 
limited, and loading from datasette would need hours…)


Just curious.
The smallest i have here is a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RCA_1802 
which actually was a very nicely designed thing (also powers the 
hubble); processors never became cleaner. Now, as the kit I used only 
had 512 bytes ram (later 2K or so) it really learns one how to program 
efficiently (thihk of writing a simple game, save and load from cassette 
player, etc in that space; dynamic adaptive functions and such) and you 
know where I'm coming from'(later pascal and modula).


That said: luametatex has a smaller memory footprint than luatex 
although nodes are way bigger but even that won't make it run well on an 
8 bit processor, assuming it can address 32 bit mem.


Context mkii started on 4.7 Mhz intel (386) so now we're 1000 times 
faster but performance gain is not linear. After all, tex has to compete 
with other applications running at the same time (browsers, remote 
clients, media apps, web polling apps, zoom, etc.) so it's kin dof 
amazing that it actually performs okay.


What boosted performance is for instance ssd's. What might boost is ddr5 
memory but that has to catch up with ddr4 first. What also boosted 
luametatex is cpu cache. I remember when taco and I moved to the math 
part we noticed a drop in performance, until machines got updated with 
larger cache. We'd just crossed some magic threshold.


Actually, I kind of assume that we're stuck with cpu performance but 
nevertheless luametatex became faster. It helps to develop on an older 
machine and not on a yearly updated one as that obscures matters. (Not 
that I'd not like a faster machine, but that comes at a steep price.)


Hans

ps. In the tranmsition from pdftex to luatex to luametatex one should 
not underestimate Taco's effort of going from basically unreadable and 
useless C output by web2c (pascal -> c) to what became the luatex C code 
base (with embedded original documentation). From that we added more 
functionality gradually over a decade till luametatex spun off, which 
then lead to quite a bit of refactoring again (but trying to maintain 
the spirit of how tex is programmed).



-
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  Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
   tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
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[NTG-context] Re: Why LuaMetaTex is so slow?

[Taco Hoekwater]

> On 19 Jan 2024, at 11:00, Henning Hraban Ramm  wrote:
> 
> Am 19.01.24 um 10:31 schrieb Hans Hagen:
>> (that said: luametatex runs fine on my mobile phone)
> 
> What’s the smallest/oldest device someone tried LMTX on?
> (We were joking about “Hans’ thermostate and Alan’s fridge“…)
> Would it run on some 8 bit homecomputer? (I’d guess the RAM is too limited, 
> and loading from datasette would need hours…)

No. You need integers (and pointers) to be at least 32 bits wide. And you also 
need about 90Mb of RAM for the initial malloc()s.

Historical 8-bit and 16-bit CPUs will not work. A modern fridge might, though. 
:)

— 
Taco Hoekwater  E: t...@bittext.nl
genderfluid (all pronouns)


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[NTG-context] Re: Why LuaMetaTex is so slow?

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

Am 19.01.24 um 10:31 schrieb Hans Hagen:

(that said: luametatex runs fine on my mobile phone)


What’s the smallest/oldest device someone tried LMTX on?
(We were joking about “Hans’ thermostate and Alan’s fridge“…)
Would it run on some 8 bit homecomputer? (I’d guess the RAM is too 
limited, and loading from datasette would need hours…)


Just curious.

Hraban
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[NTG-context] Re: Why LuaMetaTex is so slow?

[Hans Hagen]

On 1/18/2024 11:15 PM, Bruce Horrocks wrote:

On 18 Jan 2024, at 18:56, Shiv Shankar Dayal  
wrote:


I understand that why it is slow, but the problem is that the difference is too 
high.
My book has lots of math, so perhaps that is the reason.



Option 1: Buy or borrow a faster computer. You'll get your desired speed-up far 
faster than waiting for Hans to make changes, even assuming there is something 
that can be changed. I'd recommend a Mac M3 :-)


As tex is a single core process (ok, the os might delegate some file 
handling to other cores) it benefits from  jump in core speed. I use a 
2017 laptop with a reasonable fast intel xeon.  I have a few docks 
spread round with different resolution monitors (1920x1200, 2560×1440, 
4096×2160) and performance also depends on the connected monitor.


I'd be curious to know how much these new processors impact performance 
over time because the ages of dohbling performance every year are past.


There are several factors that impact performance:

tex engine : quite a bit faster in luametatex
mp  engine : quite a bit faster in luametatex
lua engine : not much we can do about

but inefficient macros and usage can offset any gain in engine.

One thing to keep in mind is that tex is an interpreter and all gets 
tokenized which is more costly in a 32 bit engine than in an 8 bit one 
(like pdftex). And although luametatex is more efficient than luatex 
that gets offset by more features that come at a price, but we still 
win. It helps a bit to know what tex does and what macros add to that. 
Simple timing operations is useless as in practice we have less cache 
hits than with a simple loop test: tex is jumping all over memory. 
Bottlenecks are often noe where one expects them.


Anyway, if one can choose: go for a few high perfotmance cores over 
dozens of so called efficient cores.


(that said: luametatex runs fine on my mobile phone)


Option 2: Split your book into a project with each chapter, or even part of a 
chapter as a separate component and compile only the chapter you are working 
on. Set up a nighttime (or lunchtime) run to regenerate the entire book while 
you're away from the computer and speed doesn't matter.

Indeed. That's the natural way to deal with large documents.

Hans


-
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   tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
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[NTG-context] Re: LuaMetaTeX code

[Henri Menke via ntg-context]

On Fri, 2024-01-19 at 13:56 +0530, Shiv Shankar Dayal wrote:
> Dear Hans,
> 
> I saw the C code of LuaMetaTeX and I saw a lot of gotos which is not
> good
> coding practice. These potions of code which have goto should be
> refactored.

https://xkcd.com/292/

> I am a C programmer, but I know very little of TeX. If you can point
> me
> towards where should I start for TeX(perhaps TeX Book or TeX for the
> Impatient), I can help with refactoring of code to make is more
> efficient/easier.
> 
> _
> __
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[NTG-context] Re: LuaMetaTeX code

[Hans Hagen]

On 1/19/2024 9:31 AM, Shiv Shankar Dayal wrote:

I see code like

# define luametatex_version          210
# define luametatex_revision         10
# define luametatex_release          10
# define luametatex_version_string   "2.10.10"

starting with C99 these become unnecessary. Rather they should be like 
const int luametatex_version=210; const char* 
luametatex_version_string="2.10.10";


These ensure type-safety in the code and are good coding practice.
Good coding practice discussions are wasted on me (you don't want me to 
look at your tex code -)


The versioning is abit special in te xdue to the fact thet some numbers 
en dup in registers and others as token list (string). I have considered 
changing that but it would also break some 'testing for tex version' so 
for now we have to accept this mix of tex/etex/pdftex inheritance.


Hans


-
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[NTG-context] Re: LuaMetaTeX code

[Hans Hagen]

On 1/19/2024 9:26 AM, Shiv Shankar Dayal wrote:

Dear Hans,

I saw the C code of LuaMetaTeX and I saw a lot of gotos which is not 
good coding practice. These potions of code which have goto should be 
refactored.


I am a C programmer, but I know very little of TeX. If you can point me 
towards where should I start for TeX(perhaps TeX Book or TeX for the 
Impatient), I can help with refactoring of code to make is more 
efficient/easier.
Luametatex evolves out of traditional tex so we have/keep some and 
although i grew up in the 'anti goto' times (pascal) there are plenty 
cases where i see no problem. Occasionaly I clean up such bits (when it 
makes sense). And I'm not going to enter coding practice discussions.


Forget about refactoring ... there has already be done a lot of that and 
we want to stay sort of close to the original (also due to 
doicumentation). I know the code quite wel now and refactoring is for me 
counter productive. These are projects running for decades and engines 
need to be stable so changes come slow.


You can compare the luanmetatex source to luatex and pdftex to see how 
we proiceed.


Hans

-
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   tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
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[NTG-context] Re: Why LuaMetaTex is so slow?

[Hans Hagen]

On 1/19/2024 1:33 AM, Aditya Mahajan wrote:


\starttext

\dorecurse{5000}{\ReadFile{knuth}}

\stoptext

I'll send you the PDFs offlist.

lmtx defaults to 'modern' so you need to

\setupbodyfont[modern]

for mkiv

Hans


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[NTG-context] Re: LuaMetaTeX code

[Shiv Shankar Dayal]

Dear Taco,

I will send new messages to dev mailing lists. Let me join it first.

On Fri, Jan 19, 2024 at 2:11 PM Taco Hoekwater  wrote:

>
> Hi Shiv,
>
> Can you move this discussion to the dev-context list, please?
> https://mailman.ntg.nl/mailman3/lists/dev-context.ntg.nl/
>
> Best wishes,
> Taco
>
>
> > On 19 Jan 2024, at 09:31, Shiv Shankar Dayal <
> shivshankar.da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I see code like
> >
> > # define luametatex_version  210
> > # define luametatex_revision 10
> > # define luametatex_release  10
> > # define luametatex_version_string   "2.10.10"
> >
> > starting with C99 these become unnecessary. Rather they should be like
> const int luametatex_version=210; const char*
> luametatex_version_string="2.10.10";
> >
> > These ensure type-safety in the code and are good coding practice.
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 19, 2024 at 1:56 PM Shiv Shankar Dayal <
> shivshankar.da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Dear Hans,
> >
> > I saw the C code of LuaMetaTeX and I saw a lot of gotos which is not
> good coding practice. These potions of code which have goto should be
> refactored.
> >
> > I am a C programmer, but I know very little of TeX. If you can point me
> towards where should I start for TeX(perhaps TeX Book or TeX for the
> Impatient), I can help with refactoring of code to make is more
> efficient/easier.
> >
> > --
> > Respect,
> > Shiv Shankar Dayal
> >
> >
> > --
> > Respect,
> > Shiv Shankar Dayal
> >
> ___
> > If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry
> to the Wiki!
> >
> > maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
> https://mailman.ntg.nl/mailman3/lists/ntg-context.ntg.nl
> > webpage  : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / https://context.aanhet.net
> (mirror)
> > archive  : https://github.com/contextgarden/context
> > wiki : https://wiki.contextgarden.net
> >
> ___
>
> —
> Taco Hoekwater  E: t...@bittext.nl
> genderfluid (all pronouns)
>
>
>
> ___
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
> the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
> https://mailman.ntg.nl/mailman3/lists/ntg-context.ntg.nl
> webpage  : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / https://context.aanhet.net (mirror)
> archive  : https://github.com/contextgarden/context
> wiki : https://wiki.contextgarden.net
>
> ___
>


-- 
Respect,
Shiv Shankar Dayal
___
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the 
Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / 
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[NTG-context] Re: LuaMetaTeX code

[Taco Hoekwater]

Hi Shiv,

Can you move this discussion to the dev-context list, please? 
https://mailman.ntg.nl/mailman3/lists/dev-context.ntg.nl/

Best wishes,
Taco


> On 19 Jan 2024, at 09:31, Shiv Shankar Dayal  
> wrote:
> 
> I see code like
> 
> # define luametatex_version  210
> # define luametatex_revision 10
> # define luametatex_release  10
> # define luametatex_version_string   "2.10.10"
> 
> starting with C99 these become unnecessary. Rather they should be like const 
> int luametatex_version=210; const char* luametatex_version_string="2.10.10";
> 
> These ensure type-safety in the code and are good coding practice.
> 
> On Fri, Jan 19, 2024 at 1:56 PM Shiv Shankar Dayal 
>  wrote:
> Dear Hans,
> 
> I saw the C code of LuaMetaTeX and I saw a lot of gotos which is not good 
> coding practice. These potions of code which have goto should be refactored.
> 
> I am a C programmer, but I know very little of TeX. If you can point me 
> towards where should I start for TeX(perhaps TeX Book or TeX for the 
> Impatient), I can help with refactoring of code to make is more 
> efficient/easier.
> 
> -- 
> Respect,
> Shiv Shankar Dayal
> 
> 
> -- 
> Respect,
> Shiv Shankar Dayal
> ___
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the 
> Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / 
> https://mailman.ntg.nl/mailman3/lists/ntg-context.ntg.nl
> webpage  : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / https://context.aanhet.net (mirror)
> archive  : https://github.com/contextgarden/context
> wiki : https://wiki.contextgarden.net
> ___

— 
Taco Hoekwater  E: t...@bittext.nl
genderfluid (all pronouns)


___
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the 
Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / 
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wiki : https://wiki.contextgarden.net
___

[NTG-context] Re: LuaMetaTeX code

[Shiv Shankar Dayal]

I see code like

# define luametatex_version  210
# define luametatex_revision 10
# define luametatex_release  10
# define luametatex_version_string   "2.10.10"

starting with C99 these become unnecessary. Rather they should be like
const int luametatex_version=210; const char*
luametatex_version_string="2.10.10";

These ensure type-safety in the code and are good coding practice.

On Fri, Jan 19, 2024 at 1:56 PM Shiv Shankar Dayal <
shivshankar.da...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Hans,
>
> I saw the C code of LuaMetaTeX and I saw a lot of gotos which is not good
> coding practice. These potions of code which have goto should be refactored.
>
> I am a C programmer, but I know very little of TeX. If you can point me
> towards where should I start for TeX(perhaps TeX Book or TeX for the
> Impatient), I can help with refactoring of code to make is more
> efficient/easier.
>
> --
> Respect,
> Shiv Shankar Dayal
>


-- 
Respect,
Shiv Shankar Dayal
___
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the 
Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / 
https://mailman.ntg.nl/mailman3/lists/ntg-context.ntg.nl
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archive  : https://github.com/contextgarden/context
wiki : https://wiki.contextgarden.net
___

[NTG-context] LuaMetaTeX code

[Shiv Shankar Dayal]

Dear Hans,

I saw the C code of LuaMetaTeX and I saw a lot of gotos which is not good
coding practice. These potions of code which have goto should be refactored.

I am a C programmer, but I know very little of TeX. If you can point me
towards where should I start for TeX(perhaps TeX Book or TeX for the
Impatient), I can help with refactoring of code to make is more
efficient/easier.

-- 
Respect,
Shiv Shankar Dayal
___
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the 
Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / 
https://mailman.ntg.nl/mailman3/lists/ntg-context.ntg.nl
webpage  : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / https://context.aanhet.net (mirror)
archive  : https://github.com/contextgarden/context
wiki : https://wiki.contextgarden.net
___