Re: Tor Exit Node Sponsorship - looking for partners
On 12.05.2010 18:56, Anders Andersson wrote: A thought: Currently there is a Donate! section on torproject.org, that doesn't mention what the money is used for or how much money that comes in. By the way, Paypal is the most widely used paypent processor, but also the most expensive. Especially for (smaller) donations, Moneybookers and Liberty Reserve are much cheaper (Paypal: 1.9%+0.35€, Moneybookers: 1% with a maximum of 0.50€). -- Moritz Bartl GPG 0xED2E9B44 http://www.torservers.net/ *** To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to majord...@torproject.org with unsubscribe or-talkin the body. http://archives.seul.org/or/talk/
Re: Tor Exit Node Sponsorship - looking for partners
By the way, Paypal is the most widely used paypent processor Well, in the open social networking space, sure. There's all sorts of traditional commercial processors such as: https://www.authorize.net/solutions/merchantsolutions/pricing/ *** To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to majord...@torproject.org with unsubscribe or-talkin the body. http://archives.seul.org/or/talk/
Re: Tor Exit Node Sponsorship - looking for partners
By the way, Paypal is the most widely used paypent processor Well, in the open social networking space, sure. There's all sorts of traditional commercial processors such as: https://www.authorize.net/solutions/merchantsolutions/pricing/ Yes, I was implicitly talking about projects that live from donations. -- Moritz Bartl GPG 0xED2E9B44 http://www.torservers.net/ *** To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to majord...@torproject.org with unsubscribe or-talkin the body. http://archives.seul.org/or/talk/
Re: Tor Exit Node Sponsorship - looking for partners
On 14.05.2010 06:56, and...@torproject.org wrote: Can we split entrepreneurial from bad? I don't see the two as one concept. If someone figures out a way to increase fast exit relays and preserve user privacy/anonymity and make money, more power to them. We as the non-profit aren't going to stand in their way. I'm glossing over lots issues, but in general, trying and failing until you succeed is a fine plan as any. Can I use the Tor logo in combination with my hosted Tor sponsorship offer? I'd like to use it as part of a logo, somewhat modified and with the clear statement that I am not associated to the Tor project and that the logo is copyrighted by the project. -- Moritz Bartl GPG 0xED2E9B44 http://moblog.wiredwings.com/ *** To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to majord...@torproject.org with unsubscribe or-talkin the body. http://archives.seul.org/or/talk/
Re: Tor Exit Node Sponsorship - looking for partners
On 13.05.2010 03:27, and...@torproject.org wrote: My USD $0.02. Monthly or yearly? ;-) -- Moritz Bartl GPG 0xED2E9B44 http://moblog.wiredwings.com/ *** To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to majord...@torproject.org with unsubscribe or-talkin the body. http://archives.seul.org/or/talk/
Re: Tor Exit Node Sponsorship - looking for partners
Back to the Kickstarter idea, while I fully understand and agree with most of your points, my thought was one of publicly creating awareness of need. Whatever the appropriate platform, I really think it needs to move in that direction. Let's hypothesize for a moment that a suitable basic payment platform is found. What if Tor, the application itself (not making a distinction between Tor and Vidalia here), were to make people more aware of the need for exit node donations? I'm not necessarily suggesting nagware pop-ups, but I am talking about something like, perhaps, a splash screen with a reminder -- and a button -- upon launch. I am also talking about gentle nudges in the initial setup process. Tor development is only possible with your support! etc etc. And the Tor Browser Bundle? How about making its default page an explanation of the need for more exit notes, statistics, and some kind of visualization of what the impact would be for a given amount donated? And make it beautiful and simple, like this: http://www.charitywater.org/donate/ .w On May 12, 2010, at 1:11 PM, Moritz Bartl wrote: I first planned to offer a certain bandwidth push for one-time donations, eg. 1Mbit/s for one month for 2 Euro. The system could be automated to automatically update the Tor node configuration *** To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to majord...@torproject.org with unsubscribe or-talkin the body. http://archives.seul.org/or/talk/
Re: Tor Exit Node Sponsorship - looking for partners
--- On Thu, 5/13/10, W waterwai...@gmx.com wrote: I'm not necessarily suggesting nagware pop-ups, but I am talking about something like, perhaps, a splash screen with a reminder -- and a button -- upon launch. I would think that the slowness of the network would be reminder enough, no? -Martin *** To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to majord...@torproject.org with unsubscribe or-talkin the body. http://archives.seul.org/or/talk/
Re: Tor Exit Node Sponsorship - looking for partners
Well, assuming that it is only a technically-minded userbase that installs Tor, then maybe! Do you guys have any sense of whether or not that's actually true? .w On May 13, 2010, at 6:57 PM, Martin Fick wrote: I would think that the slowness of the network would be reminder enough, no? -Martin *** To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to majord...@torproject.org with unsubscribe or-talkin the body. http://archives.seul.org/or/talk/
Re: Tor Exit Node Sponsorship - looking for partners
--- On Thu, 5/13/10, W waterwai...@gmx.com wrote: I'm not necessarily suggesting nagware pop-ups, but I am talking about something like, perhaps, a splash screen with a reminder -- and a button -- upon launch. I can not speak for everyone else, but for my self, if I read this right, imo, there is no difference or very little difference between nagware popups and splash screens that have reminders or ads on them. There is enough ' crap ' ware out there with those pop ups, etc. As a relay operator, if i had to see this everytime an upgrade was done or had to reboot for whatever reason, those screens/popups would be enough after a while to stop being a relay. I am not in the ' technically-minded ' user base, but I am among the relay user database that donates time, bandwidth, money to the cause here. As just like several hundred others. Again, imo, I get the feeling beginning from the topic, that it appears to be more to this then meets the eye. It seems to me that some one other than TOR is going to benefit more from this. I may be wrong in the way I am reading this, but sure seems like to me that this is an entrepreneur proposition for some one to make money on/with. Jon PS: Hopefully some one from the Developing and Admin side will comment on this topic and give their opinions. *** To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to majord...@torproject.org with unsubscribe or-talkin the body. http://archives.seul.org/or/talk/
Re: Tor Exit Node Sponsorship - looking for partners
This is not an entrepreneurial proposition all. I'm merely talking about exposing the end-users to the financial realities of operating the service, and inviting them to help in a more obvious way. I'm NOT suggesting blatant nagware. Gentle is the word used, and I certainly never said pop-ups. Forget my comment about technically-minded users for a moment. My question really should read: Are there a significant body of end users of Tor who do not understand how it fundamentally works? Think about it: Once Tor is setup properly, how often is the average user going to return to the website to be reminded that they should donate, or that Tor organizationally is in need of this or that? Yes, the speed of the network should be some indicator, but I am suggesting that not everyone will know that, so perhaps a message like Tor exit nodes are heavily congested. Click here to help . . . would have a beneficial impact. All this being said, I completely understand, even even fully empathize with your reaction. I would never want to see Tor be packaged with crapware! .w On May 13, 2010, at 8:31 PM, Jon wrote: I can not speak for everyone else, but for my self, if I read this right, imo, there is no difference or very little difference between nagware popups and splash screens that have reminders or ads on them. There is enough ' crap ' ware out there with those pop ups, etc. As a relay operator, if i had to see this everytime an upgrade was done or had to reboot for whatever reason, those screens/popups would be enough after a while to stop being a relay. I am not in the ' technically-minded ' user base, but I am among the relay user database that donates time, bandwidth, money to the cause here. As just like several hundred others. Again, imo, I get the feeling beginning from the topic, that it appears to be more to this then meets the eye. It seems to me that some one other than TOR is going to benefit more from this. I may be wrong in the way I am reading this, but sure seems like to me that this is an entrepreneur proposition for some one to make money on/with. *** To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to majord...@torproject.org with unsubscribe or-talkin the body. http://archives.seul.org/or/talk/
Re: Tor Exit Node Sponsorship - looking for partners
On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 09:32:29PM -0400, waterwai...@gmx.com wrote 2.3K bytes in 52 lines about: : This is not an entrepreneurial proposition all. I'm merely talking about exposing the end-users to the financial realities of operating the service, and inviting them to help in a more obvious way. I'm NOT suggesting blatant nagware. Gentle is the word used, and I certainly never said pop-ups. Can we split entrepreneurial from bad? I don't see the two as one concept. If someone figures out a way to increase fast exit relays and preserve user privacy/anonymity and make money, more power to them. We as the non-profit aren't going to stand in their way. I'm glossing over lots issues, but in general, trying and failing until you succeed is a fine plan as any. : Forget my comment about technically-minded users for a moment. My question really should read: Are there a significant body of end users of Tor who do not understand how it fundamentally works? Yes. And more frequently, people are responding to the fear of Internet surveillance (ad networks, search conglomeration, traffic analysis, etc) by installing Tor because someone or somewhere told them it was a fine solution to these problems. These people don't understand what they fear and do not understand what Tor gives them. I've heard repeatedly something like, I installed Tor, have a green onion, and my IE browsing is just as fast as before. I feel so much safer knowing Tor is protecting me. Disturbingly, I'm hearing more often, It's great that I login to my facebook/twitter account via Tor so they don't know who I am and my privacy is protected. As we attract a less technical user, we need to do a better job communicating a very complex problem in simpler terms. The video's Freedom House did for Tor have been a help in this regard. We're working on this, but finding usability people that can take all of our usability problems and finding solutions has been difficult. Work continues. -- Andrew Lewman The Tor Project pgp 0x31B0974B Website: https://www.torproject.org/ Blog: https://blog.torproject.org/ Identi.ca: torproject *** To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to majord...@torproject.org with unsubscribe or-talkin the body. http://archives.seul.org/or/talk/
Re: Tor Exit Node Sponsorship - looking for partners
So long as more nodes come online, and those nodes have proper family statements, particularly regarding physical/geopolitical location... I don't really see any problem with any form of organization doing this. For profit or not. Nor any problem with any level of transparency. From open books and people to the typical privately held black box. Nor any need for silly we don't sniff declarations. That one especially makes me laugh, because users would be foolish to believe that there are not plenty of exit node operators that: a) do sniff, declaration or not b) are under orders to sniff c) are sniffed by the upstream doing so per a or b. and because users are supposed to know that if they're not using PKI or PSK complete with fingerprint checking, that they should indeed [!] expect to have their plaintext observed at some point, regardless of whether or not they use Tor. I agree in general that due to economies of scale and SLA/policy/contact setting with the provider, it's probably better to go for one year term upfront and somewhere between lots of small nodes or a few large ones. And yes, more transparency is more likely to successfully raise funds. Go forth and prosper, the market will figure out the merits. *** To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to majord...@torproject.org with unsubscribe or-talkin the body. http://archives.seul.org/or/talk/
Re: Tor Exit Node Sponsorship - looking for partners
Hi, I was asked by mail if I was interested in $5 a month. To make that one clear: Yes, I am! I want to fund a node. Depending on the number of people, amounts of money, wishes for services, I will try to find the best suitable hoster. The three posted were just examples of what I have in mind. Just contact me, I'll add you to the list, and keep you posted. When speaking in terms of bandwidth, e.g. 150Mbps, then I'd rather spread it across n machines with 150Mbps/n each. I understand that it is far from ideal. Still, one has to be practical. Currently, one machine is responsible for 25% of exit traffic. Of course, a large number of smaller nodes with good (unrestricted) exit policy would be best, but why don't we have them already then ..? Apart from Mike Perrys arguments, I'd like you to see me as an ISP, offering independent VPS for Tor hosting, with an additional Tor friendly abuse handling. All I can do is promise (and put it in the contract) that I will not monitor the traffic. Then you're better off than with most ISPs out there that shut you down for running Tor or even demand 200 Euro for forwarding one abuse message. If I was the first ISP to offer small VPS, preconfigured Tor exit nodes with root access for customization, then it's a small step towards saying that at the same time, I can put all efforts into one bigger node instead. I mean, what is better, one ISP that explicitly allows Tor, handles abuse, and encrypts the drives, or an ISP that shuts down your virtual server the first time it gets a complaint and maybe monitors your traffic? Strato, the second largest hoster in Europe, once called the police on one of their dedicated servers, because they suspected criminal behavior, by watching the traffic - on their own initiative. I can never make sure that the traffic isn't logged upstream. Also, most ISPs offering VPS are not very explicit about the configuration of their virtual machines, you have to try and see if Tor works first. I will make sure that it does. If you look at bandwidth and hardware prices, once you rent servers, additional bandwidth is cheap. Example: At FDCServers, you get a dedicated machine with 10mbit/s for $50, 100mbit/s (and better hardware) for $160, and 1000mbit/s for $500. I don't aim for the Gigabit, but 10mbit/s is just not economically worthwhile. Kickstarter has three disadvantages: [...] Indeed. I am neither US citizen, nor do I plan to (only) accept Amazon Payments. I see PayPal as one alternative, yes, but in the end it depends on where the people who would like to fund a node live. I am German, EU payments can be made without any fees to my bank account. For organizing payments, I am currently looking into billing software, but haven't been able to find something that suits my needs. I don't have a problem organizing monthly mass email for 20 people (please, pay your fee, by your payment processor of choice among the following...). I would also like theoretically to accept anonymous donations for a node (not for the VPN/webspace stuff of course), but the problem there is not so much accepting it (PSC, Ukash, Liberty Reserve etc), but making sure that the money comes in regularly to fund the node. Before working on the details, I want to make sure there is actual interest in such a node. You have to open to a world of people who see the good in Tor, but either don't have the time or the knowledge to run an own exit. -- Moritz Bartl GPG 0xED2E9B44 http://moblog.wiredwings.com/ *** To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to majord...@torproject.org with unsubscribe or-talkin the body. http://archives.seul.org/or/talk/
Re: Tor Exit Node Sponsorship - looking for partners
On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 6:20 PM, Moritz Bartl t...@wiredwings.com wrote: I would also like theoretically to accept anonymous donations for a node (not for the VPN/webspace stuff of course), but the problem there is not so much accepting it (PSC, Ukash, Liberty Reserve etc), but making sure that the money comes in regularly to fund the node. A thought: Currently there is a Donate! section on torproject.org, that doesn't mention what the money is used for or how much money that comes in. I think a lot more people would donate if they could see that the money went directly to fast tor relays. Why not do something similar, set up a pool that people can donate to, and put it up on torproject.org. (I can see the issues with advertising it on the website, but that's just a suggestion.) // pipe *** To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to majord...@torproject.org with unsubscribe or-talkin the body. http://archives.seul.org/or/talk/
Re: Tor Exit Node Sponsorship - looking for partners
--- On Wed, 5/12/10, Anders Andersson pipat...@gmail.com wrote: A thought: Currently there is a Donate! section on torproject.org, that doesn't mention what the money is used for or how much money that comes in. I think a lot more people would donate if they could see that the money went directly to fast tor relays. Why not do something similar, set up a pool that people can donate to, and put it up on torproject.org. (I can see the issues with advertising it on the website, but that's just a suggestion.) Also, making donations possible from so sort of anonymous money system to directly support bandwidth might be an idea. -Martin *** To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to majord...@torproject.org with unsubscribe or-talkin the body. http://archives.seul.org/or/talk/
Re: Tor Exit Node Sponsorship - looking for partners
A thought: Currently there is a Donate! section on torproject.org, that doesn't mention what the money is used for or how much money that comes in. If you look closely, at the bottom of the page a pie says what the money is used for. Basically, torproject donations are used for development. It might not even be too good to have the same people run nodes. I think it's important that development gets funded. The German Chaos Computer Club and the German Privacy foundation, to name only two, also accept donations towards running Tor nodes. I have something different in mind than just accepting donations for nodes. The node website could list its owners, with a small bio and why they are doing it. And like I said you can use parts of the machine for different purposes (VPN, Webserver, ...). Martin Fick: Also, making donations possible from so sort of anonymous money system to directly support bandwidth might be an idea. I first planned to offer a certain bandwidth push for one-time donations, eg. 1Mbit/s for one month for 2 Euro. The system could be automated to automatically update the Tor node configuration. Still, this doesn't solve the problem that there is no hoster that supports to buy small amounts of bandwidth for just one month. The only thing that comes pretty close are cloud hosters like Amazon, but the bandwidth and constant workload isn't very cheap. What I can offer of course is to collect donations, until they can be turned into a useful node. For example, anonymous/non-recurring donations could be distributed evenly amongst the recurring payers (node sponsors). For torproject.org , I suggest to accept UKash, PaysafeCard, Liberty Reserve and maybe another credit card processor (Paypal doesn't allow prepaid and virtual CCs) in addition to privacy-unfriendly Paypal. -- Moritz Bartl GPG 0xED2E9B44 http://moblog.wiredwings.com/ *** To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to majord...@torproject.org with unsubscribe or-talkin the body. http://archives.seul.org/or/talk/
Re: Tor Exit Node Sponsorship - looking for partners
On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 07:11:53PM +0200, t...@wiredwings.com wrote 2.0K bytes in 45 lines about: : A thought: Currently there is a Donate! section on torproject.org, : that doesn't mention what the money is used for or how much money that : comes in. : : If you look closely, at the bottom of the page a pie says what the money : is used for. For this specific topic, it is here: https://www.torproject.org/donate#outcome In general, all US non-profits have to file a Form 990 with the IRS annually. It is a public document that lays out who funds the non-profit and how much, where the funds went, and a categorization of how the funds were spent. Everyone considering donating to a US non-profit should find the 990 and evaluate their performance for yourself. There are other non-profits who make up metrics and rate non-profits on these made-up metrics. YMMV. : important that development gets funded. The German Chaos Computer Club : and the German Privacy foundation, to name only two, also accept : donations towards running Tor nodes. Yes. The CCC has a bank account just for donations for their Tor activities. The banking info for the CCC will return to our donation webpage shortly. As for the question, why can't Tor do this already? We've been told repeatedly and by very smart lawyers, do not host relays in the name of the non-profit Tor Project, Inc. An oversimplification of the advice is that we can spend our money on making more scalable, better performing, and more anonymous Tor, or spend our money fighting lawsuits from anyone claiming the non-profit is responsible for the traffic it transmits. We produce code, not legal statements of defense. We're always open to legal advice to the contrary. This FAQ is still valid, https://www.torproject.org/eff/tor-legal-faq.html.en. As for a 3rd party hosting fast exit nodes, great. Tor needs more relays to scale. The network is already overloaded and we're sustaining around 500,000 daily users out of roughly 30 million downloads in the last 12 calendar months. Tor is slow, this is not news to anyone. What is news is that there is such a demand for online anonymity and privacy half a million people are willing to take the slowness to protect themselves. I2P and FreeNet are also seeing growth over the past year or two as well. As the saying goes, All ships rise with the tide. The topic of an exchange or marketplace to match those with money to those with technical skill in running relays is not new. It's been an internal debate for the past year or two. Incentives can have unforseen consequences, see https://blog.torproject.org/blog/two-incentive-designs-tor for lots of details. This legal environments change dramatically from country to country. Right now, the US is probably the best place to run an exit node, given tor has common carrier like status according to the aforementioned smart lawyers. Internally, we decided we aren't economists and would probably suck at running such an exchange. This doesn't mean you cannot try. Coldboot in the UK is also trying something similar. The more the merrier. I've had casual conversations with some global ISPs about running their own Tor networks as a value-added service to customers wishing to escape the defacto Internet surveillance that exists today. Not one has started such a thing to my knowledge. My suggestion for those considering doing something like Kickstart is to do a year at a time. It's easier to raise $2400 to fund a fast exit node at someplace like 100tb.com for a year than it will be to raise $200/mo for 12 months. Buy the server for a year and post a copy of the receipt somewhere. People will check throughout the year to see the server is still online. If not, figure out some refund plan pro-rated to months left in the contract if the server lasts less than a year. Maybe some other non-profit could offer to be a fiscal sponsor so the donations are tax-deductible. My USD $0.02. -- Andrew Lewman The Tor Project pgp 0x31B0974B Website: https://www.torproject.org/ Blog: https://blog.torproject.org/ Identi.ca: torproject *** To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to majord...@torproject.org with unsubscribe or-talkin the body. http://archives.seul.org/or/talk/
Re: Tor Exit Node Sponsorship - looking for partners
Have you guys thought organizing a (very) public Kickstarter.com project for the purpose of raising the funds and creating awareness of need? .w On May 10, 2010, at 8:06 PM, Moritz Bartl wrote: Hi, At the moment, 25% of all traffic exits through Blutmagie (thanks Olaf!). I guess we all agree that this situation is far from optimal. Judging from the number of requests in the last months where people were looking for friendly ISPs, help with setting up, running and managing Tor nodes, and especially abuse handling advice, I think there is enough interest to fund another big node. I've been in contact with several ISPs lately, asking specifically for high bandwidth Tor exit node hosting. I have also added their responses to the GoodBadISPs wiki. What I am planning is either a large node (split like Blutmagie), if I can find enough people to sponsor it, and/or smaller nodes on virtual machines, eg. for hidden services hosting. I will personally order the machine, manage it, keep Tor(s) running with mostly unrestricted exit policies and handle all abuse. The companies selected will not shut down the serve but pass all abuse to me, WHOIS notices will be adjusted when possible (unfortunately, only a few of them offered that), RDNS and notice pages will be set up accordingly. I know that this is a controversial topic, and that it would be better to have completely independent nodes, but I hope that I can earn your trust. I will happily sign an agreement that I will not log/sniff traffic. :-) The configuration will be published among sponsors. I am open to suggestions here: You as a sponsor might also be interested in an additional private VPN service, or use the large drive space as backup purposes, I2P etc. You can of course also be mentioned on the notice page as sponsor, complete with your company logo. If you're interested, feel free to contact me directly. Tell me what you'd want to give, and what you'd expect for your money. At the moment, I am thinking about something like these (monthly): $200 100TB - http://www.100tb.com/ $160 100Mbit/s - http://fdcservers.net/ 50€ 10Mbit/s - http://www.netrouting.nl/ All depending on how many people are willing to participate. -- Moritz Bartl GPG 0xED2E9B44 http://moblog.wiredwings.com/ *** To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to majord...@torproject.org with unsubscribe or-talkin the body. http://archives.seul.org/or/talk/ *** To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to majord...@torproject.org with unsubscribe or-talkin the body. http://archives.seul.org/or/talk/
Re: Tor Exit Node Sponsorship - looking for partners
Hi everyone, Have you guys thought organizing a (very) public Kickstarter.com project for the purpose of raising the funds and creating awareness of need? Kickstarter has three disadvantages: 1) It does not allow recurring fees, you'd have to start a new project for every payment you want to make. This also means that someone who funds the first Kickstarter project will not necessarily have to fund the second one. 2) The creator and benificiary of the project has to be in the USA and have a bank account there. 3) You can only pledge if you have an Amazon Payments account, for which you need a credit card. Not everyone has (or wants) one. As much as I hate to say this, PayPal might be a better alternative here. (Or simple bank transactions for euroland people). I quite like the idea of having another big node. While 20 small non-exit VPS with only a few 100 kilobyte throughput are nice, one big machine with 150 MBit/s thoughput (~ 100 TB a month) that has an open exit policy and good abuse handling is nicer. Offering some backup space and VPN (maybe from a second IP reserved for VPN use) is a nice incentive too, btw. Cheers, David *** To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to majord...@torproject.org with unsubscribe or-talkin the body. http://archives.seul.org/or/talk/
Re: Tor Exit Node Sponsorship - looking for partners
thus David Triendl spake: Hi everyone, Have you guys thought organizing a (very) public Kickstarter.com project for the purpose of raising the funds and creating awareness of need? Kickstarter has three disadvantages: 1) It does not allow recurring fees, you'd have to start a new project for every payment you want to make. This also means that someone who funds the first Kickstarter project will not necessarily have to fund the second one. 2) The creator and benificiary of the project has to be in the USA and have a bank account there. 3) You can only pledge if you have an Amazon Payments account, for which you need a credit card. Not everyone has (or wants) one. As much as I hate to say this, PayPal might be a better alternative here. (Or simple bank transactions for euroland people). I quite like the idea of having another big node. While 20 small non-exit VPS with only a few 100 kilobyte throughput are nice, one big machine with 150 MBit/s thoughput (~ 100 TB a month) that has an open exit policy and good abuse handling is nicer. Offering some backup space and VPN (maybe from a second IP reserved for VPN use) is a nice incentive too, btw. Hi, I don't want to be a party-pooper, but installing just another big node (like blutmagie) would still mean * relatively (still very low) redundancy * strong agglomeration of traffic on only a few nodes (thus leading to) * relatively simple eavesdropping of exit traffic When speaking in terms of bandwidth, e.g. 150Mbps, then I'd rather spread it across n machines with 150Mbps/n each. Just a thought. Cheers, David Timo *** To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to majord...@torproject.org with unsubscribe or-talkin the body. http://archives.seul.org/or/talk/
Re: Tor Exit Node Sponsorship - looking for partners
Hi, I don't want to be a party-pooper, but installing just another big node (like blutmagie) would still mean * relatively (still very low) redundancy * strong agglomeration of traffic on only a few nodes (thus leading to) * relatively simple eavesdropping of exit traffic When speaking in terms of bandwidth, e.g. 150Mbps, then I'd rather spread it across n machines with 150Mbps/n each. Just a thought. Cheers, David Timo *** To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to majord...@torproject.org with unsubscribe or-talk in the body. http://archives.seul.org/or/talk/ Any new nodes are great, but it does seem like the best option might be to get people to donate to a pool of money, from which a number of smaller servers are paid for. Ideally also, there would be a pool of admins, so a different person could run each node (or at least a few nodes of the larger pool)? Al *** To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to majord...@torproject.org with unsubscribe or-talkin the body. http://archives.seul.org/or/talk/
Re: Tor Exit Node Sponsorship - looking for partners
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 thus Al MailingList spake: Hi, I don't want to be a party-pooper, but installing just another big node (like blutmagie) would still mean * relatively (still very low) redundancy * strong agglomeration of traffic on only a few nodes (thus leading to) * relatively simple eavesdropping of exit traffic When speaking in terms of bandwidth, e.g. 150Mbps, then I'd rather spread it across n machines with 150Mbps/n each. Just a thought. Cheers, David Timo *** To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to majord...@torproject.org with unsubscribe or-talkin the body. http://archives.seul.org/or/talk/ Any new nodes are great, +1 but it does seem like the best option might be to get people to donate to a pool of money, from which a number of smaller servers are paid for. +1 Ideally also, there would be a pool of admins, so a different person could run each node (or at least a few nodes of the larger pool)? I'd like to mention that it'd be an ideal solution, especially to 'create trust', to have an XOR-like admin network. So, admin A is responsible for node A, admin B - node B, etc, while nobody knows another nodes credentials. However, they of course may belong to the same family. Al Timo -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with CentOS - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iD8DBQFL6aeGO/2mgkVVV7kRAn3qAKCs2dSpWTnSE59OSGBMgZpm3JRI1QCfWQy3 oOxyUZccTB7nQI/uxCfp17M= =4GeY -END PGP SIGNATURE- *** To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to majord...@torproject.org with unsubscribe or-talkin the body. http://archives.seul.org/or/talk/
Re: Tor Exit Node Sponsorship - looking for partners
Thus spake Timo Schoeler (timo.schoe...@riscworks.net): I don't want to be a party-pooper, but installing just another big node (like blutmagie) would still mean * relatively simple eavesdropping of exit traffic When speaking in terms of bandwidth, e.g. 150Mbps, then I'd rather spread it across n machines with 150Mbps/n each. The counterpoint is that scale really works in our favor the other way, along a number of different fronts: 1. Bandwidth will be significantly cheaper in bulk 2. ISPs take larger customers more seriously A. This means you're much more likely to get SWIP/ARIN 'whois' allocation to better handle abuse complaints. B. The ISP be much more likely to tolerate the occasional abuse complaint that makes it back to them. 3. There probably really aren't that many super-friendly yet affordable ISPs to begin with. I feel like all this means that the answer here is for us to try to create as many consolidated exit nodes like Olaf's and Moritz's as we can, rather than nickle and diming it with a lot of small time nodes that aren't going to last very long because ISPs don't want to deal with them. In fact, #3 especially underscores this point, because really, what is the point of creating 'n' small time nodes at one tor-friendly ISP? Anyone interested in surveilling that traffic will just watch the ISPs uplink either way.. -- Mike Perry Mad Computer Scientist fscked.org evil labs pgpxlZwDQKeEn.pgp Description: PGP signature
