Nobody is obliged to post anything to this list, but I would point out that
Louis Proyect has failed to address the important subject of this thread
title, which he himself formulated.
Is a global crash imminent or is it not?
I took it up and examined whether a global crash is imminent, why
At 08/10/02 21:59 -0700, you wrote:
I don't see any reason for the nastiness. Please keep it calm. I don't
want to have to have to unsub people.
I would also appreciate emphasis on content, including content of
differences. Although suspicions and intuitions are inevitable, to avoid
guilt
Brian M Czech wrote:
Just out of curiosity, why is there so little discussion of the
ecological economics movement on this list? My memory isnt the
greatest, but I dont recall ever hearing any mention of Herman Daly,
Robert Costanza, Richard Norgaard, the International Society for
I know some people are probably sick of the
topic, but reading through all those posts, I
can't help but think at least two individuals
mucked it up more than added to it (not Daniel's
recent post, which did add considerably).
We discussed this on another list, I've forgotten
the name, and this
And what makes me think that a lot of these
patriotic big spenders would be unemployed, too,
if they had to get a real job? But then again,
what would any of their bosses be good at?
CJ
US military in brothel bills scandal
More than $13,000 was spent at two brothels
US Navy
Chris Burford:
What I read however is from my point of view a rehearsal of assertions
about who is more marxist than whom and who is more revolutionary than whom.
Perhaps it would help if you stopped using the name of Marx or Engels in a
kind of ritual incantation in nearly every post. Since I
DD writes:
CJ: I know some people are probably sick of the
topic, but reading through all those posts, I
can't help but think at least two individuals
mucked it up more than added to it (not
Daniel's
recent post, which did add considerably).
DD: Thanks, but hang on a minute. If by two
I thought Daniel did an excellent job of responding to this note. I don't
think any one or two people mucked anything up but the discussion just got
ugly step by step.
On Wed, Oct 09, 2002 at 04:07:47AM -0700, Charles Jannuzi wrote:
I know some people are probably sick of the
topic, but
--- Michael Perelman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
I thought Daniel did an excellent job of
responding to this note. I don't
think any one or two people mucked anything up
but the discussion just got
ugly step by step.
I don't think Daniel responded at all well to my
note because he ostensibly
JD
I don't agree with that theory.
I have no doubt that the US's extremely large
jail populations and active duty military help
keep unemployment quite a bit lower than if the
US fit the OECD pattern in these areas. It
doesn't, not by a long shot. Especially in the
prison pop.
But the main
From: Devine, James [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Ian:
Indeed, lots of the problems of modernity are the uses
to which logic, scientific thinking etc. have been put and those
problems are not reducible to the problems created by capitalism.
Carl:
Yes, I think the basis of many of modern society's
and what is the alternative to scientific
thinking?
That's the horror of it all. As Huxley suggested
in Brave New World, there
doesn't seem to be any choice between the
dehumanization of science and
reversion to simple savagery. As I said, I don't
have any answer to this.
Carl
I start
Title: RE: [PEN-L:31142] Re:employment
but they also provide jobs for the sex workers...
Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~jdevine
-Original Message-
From: Charles Jannuzi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, October 09,
I start by proclaiming that science does not
equal rationalism. In fact, they can be quite
exclusive of each other. Spend one day at a
university dominated by a college of science, and
you'll have to agree with me.
CJ
Unfortunately critical thinking toward bourgeois science (and there *is*
Title: RE: [PEN-L:31147] Re: Re: employment
Michael Perelman wrote:
I thought Daniel did an excellent job of responding to this
note. I don't
think any one or two people mucked anything up but the
discussion just got
ugly step by step.
Hey, just yesterday a Zionist professor told me
Title: RE: [PEN-L:31150] Re: employment
I don't agree with that theory.
Charles J writes:
I have no doubt that the US's extremely large
jail populations and active duty military help
keep unemployment quite a bit lower than if the
US fit the OECD pattern in these areas. It
doesn't,
-Original Message-
From: Charles Jannuzi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: 09 October 2002 15:13
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [PEN-L:31148] Re: employment
best you could say it was an argument from
previously established authority
Absolutely, because I have no real specialist
Title: RE: Western Rationality
Carl had written:
Yes, I think the basis of many of modern society's worst
difficulties is the
pernicious objectification of the individual that results from the
scientific method, in all its many forms -- especially
including the social
Finally, think about how so many of these
concepts are culturally determined. If 'unemployment' in the US were
determined the
way it is in Japan, the figure would jump about 1%
with one calculation.
I'm not sure I follow the argument that, b/c Japanese statisticians define
employment
Title: RE: [PEN-L:31127] Re: Re: employment
Michael:
Several times in the past, I mentioned that the unemployment
rate should
include something to adjust for the quality of available
jobs. My idea
never resonated. I am sure that it could not be calculated with any
exactitude, but I
Daniel Davies wrote,
I have never, ever, in any series at all, been
aware of a single area of
macroeconomic statistics in which the USA is
not head and shoulders above
the rest of the world in terms of timeliness,
My understanding was that Statistics Canada is the best in the world,
From: Devine, James [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The issue of attaining zero unemployment is not about measuring it. Rather,
it's about figuring out a better way to organize society that doesn't
organically involve unemployment (open or hidden).
Hear, hear, Jim. Yes, let's keep our eyes on the prize!
Title: RE: [PEN-L:31131] Re: Re: Re: employment
Thiago Oppermann:
Wouldn't the quality of unemployment also be relevant? A rate of 1% where the
unemployed end up indentured to credit companies might be a lot worse than 5%
if they are free to enjoy productive unemployment. ...
there's
Title: RE: Western Rationality
My sour view of quantification
certainly owes something to the fact that I scored far, far lower on my math
than my verbal SAT and have been socially marginalized ever since :)
I know you're kidding, but the SAT is a great example of the single number
Ian Murray wrote:
Who the hell are you to unilaterally -- no, monopolistically -- decide what
is and is not a legitimate question on this list? Is this list not a
manifestation of a collective practice or are we, in your readings of post
on this list, all solipsistic-monadic deceptive
Title: RE: "Western Rationality"
Jim
wrote,
...eight separate kinds of
intelligence,
Jim modestly fails to note his own contribution to this
issue: there are also multiple kinds of
stupidities.
Eric
/
Title: Is God Triune?
it's about time that pen-l discussed a worthwhile question!
Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~jdevine
-Original Message-
From: Carrol Cox [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 9:12
CounterPunch, October 9, 2002
Eight Ways to Smear Noam Chomsky
by LAWRENCE MCGUIRE
I just read a recent article in The Nation, 'The Left and 9/11' (September
23, 2002) by Adam Shatz, which purports to be a measured analysis of the
differences between the so-called 'Left' in the United States
Title: RE: "Western Rationality"
yeah,
I've been stupid in many ways.
Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~jdevine
-Original Message-From: Eric Nilsson
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 9:17
AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject:
Title: RE: [PEN-L:31158] 8 ways to smear Chomsky
I'm a big Chomsky fan, but we have to be aware of his limitations without accepting Shatz-type crap.
For better or for worse, Chomsky is most concerned with what's logical and what fits available empirical evidence, while avoiding a double
Devine, James wrote:
But the problem is that Chomsky doesn't seem to care about his own P.R. --
or that he mostly preaches to the converted. This creates openings for the
Shatzes and Walzers of the world.
but thats exactly the gap we (the fans of chomsky) need to fill, isnt
it, like lou
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/08/02 05:33PM
How the hell does a simple discussion about data evoke such nastiness?
Michael Perelman
i'll try to avoid making an analogy here for reasons that should be obvious... i can't
help but recall fanon's assertion that violence is turned inward in colonial
At 10:56 AM 10/09/2002 -0400, you wrote:
Unfortunately critical thinking toward bourgeois science (and there *is*
such a thing has been associated with postmodernist relativism,
Not really. There is the work of Feyerabend and a tremendous amount of
ground breaking by the phenomenlogists and by
Even more generally, the
single number fallacy fits with the general capitalist philosophy that
the value of everything should be measured by its contribution to
profits.
Yup.
Joanna
At 02:41 PM 10/09/2002 +, you wrote:
That's the horror of it all. As Huxley suggested in Brave New World,
there doesn't seem to be any choice between the dehumanization of science
and reversion to simple savagery. As I said, I don't have any answer to this.
Oh, that's just silly. We have
From: joanna bujes [EMAIL PROTECTED]
At 02:41 PM 10/09/2002 +, you wrote:
That's the horror of it all. As Huxley suggested in Brave New World,
there doesn't seem to be any choice between the dehumanization of science
and reversion to simple savagery. As I said, I don't have any answer to
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=storyncid=530e=2cid=530u=/ap/20021009/ap_on_bi_ge/nobel_economics
2 Americans Win Nobel for Economics
Wed Oct 9, 1:24 PM ET
By MATTI HUUHTANEN, Associated Press Writer
STOCKHOLM, Sweden (AP) - Two Americans won the Nobel prize for economics
Wednesday
Michael Hoover wrote:
i'll try to avoid making an analogy here for reasons that should
be obvious... i can't help but recall fanon's assertion that
violence is turned inward in colonial society; people kill each
other rather than their subjugators...
Yes, as Marx used to say, it's the
Title: RE: [PEN-L:31171] Re: RE: 8 ways to smear Chomsky
Devine, James wrote:
But the problem is that Chomsky doesn't seem to care about
his own P.R. --
or that he mostly preaches to the converted. This creates
openings for the
Shatzes and Walzers of the world.
but thats
On 9 Oct 02, at 16:14, Davies, Daniel wrote:
-Original Message-
From: Charles Jannuzi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: 09 October 2002 15:13
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [PEN-L:31148] Re: employment
best you could say it was an argument from
previously established
Title: RE: [PEN-L:31157] RE: Re: employment (apologies: long)
Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~jdevine
-Original Message-
Daniel Davies writes:
... My understanding of what the BLS unemployment rate is
meant to measure is
As usual, Michael H. is correct. I tried to say something similar a
couple days ago when Doug suggested that the left had a tendency to root
out heretics. I cryptically suggested that it was not some political
tendency but rather it reflected powerlessness.
On Wed, Oct 09, 2002 at
01:38:55PM
Michael Perelman wrote:
As usual, Michael H. is correct. I tried to say something similar a
couple days ago when Doug suggested that the left had a tendency to root
out heretics. I cryptically suggested that it was not some political
tendency but rather it reflected powerlessness.
I guess
At 06:01 PM 10/09/2002 +, you wrote:
From: joanna bujes [EMAIL PROTECTED]
At 02:41 PM 10/09/2002 +, you wrote:
That's the horror of it all. As Huxley suggested in Brave New World,
there doesn't seem to be any choice between the dehumanization of
science and reversion to simple
I think that the thread on unemployment data was very useful if you can
filter out the unnecessary nastiness. Whether the United States or
Canada has the best statistical agencies, I leave to others.
Focusing on the single number, I think we all agree, presents a very
limited perspective.
Title: RE: [PEN-L:31184] Re: Re: Re: Re: RE: Re: Western Rationality
Joanna writes:
A critique of the development of science under capitalism would take much
more than an email. Suffice it to say that what we refer to as SCIENCE
today is a specific historical form suffering from specific
Nice post, Lou, except for the personal dig at the end. I remember when
the New Republic was my fave. Kopkind and Ridgeway were great.
On Wed, Oct 09, 2002 at 06:26:18PM -0400, Louis Proyect wrote:
Michael Perelman wrote:
I guess that a different kind of left is being described here than
Michael Perelman wrote,
As usual, Michael H. is correct. I tried to say something similar a
couple days ago when Doug suggested that the left had a tendency to root
out heretics. I cryptically suggested that it was not some political
tendency but rather it reflected powerlessness.
I
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Enron Jolt: Investments, Assets Generate Big Loss
---
Part of Charge Tied To 2 Partnerships Interests Wall Street
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The Wall Street Journal
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(Copyright (c) 2001, Dow Jones Company, Inc.)
Enron Corp. yesterday took a $1.01 billion charge
Hi Michael,
I thought you may want to forward these book recommendations on
the
topic of Western Rationality to pen-l.
Morris Kline Mathematics: Loss of Certainty
Ernest Gellner Reason and Culture
Harold I Brown Rationality
JW Burrow Crisis of Reason: European Thought, 1848-1918
Georg Lukacs
Please Distribute widely:
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
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DEMONSTRATION TO STOP WAR ON IRAQ
WHAT: On Friday October 11, 2002, Statewide coalition calls on all
people of conscience to participate in a DEMONSTRATION to stop the
war on Iraqi children. American taxpayer dollars
Shoveling Fuel for a Runaway Train: Errant Economists, Shameful Spenders,
and a Plan to Stop Them All is now coming out in paperback, so Im
sending off one last round of announcements (though I reserve the right
to have a memory relapse if necessary). Im tired of acting like a
salesman. Its
Thanks, Mark, for the other voice in the wilderness. I think my question
has been answered. The progressive in PEN alludes to other than
sustainability issues (although it's true that just about anything can be
portrayed as pertinent to sustainability by tossing in a ceteris paribus
here and
--- Christian Gregory
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Finally, think about how so many of these
concepts are culturally determined. If
'unemployment' in the US were
determined the
way it is in Japan, the figure would jump about
1%
with one calculation.
I'm not sure I follow the
- Original Message -
From: William Mandel [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: undisclosed-recipients:
Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 4:24 PM
Subject: [Fwd: VIRUS ALERT]
FOLLOWING INSTRUCTIONS BELOW, I FOUND THAT I TOO HAD THIS VIRUS, AND
ELIMINATED IT FROM DRIVE AND RECYCLE BIN. IN ACCORDANCE
from Eric Fry, Daily Reckoning:
*** And along comes Stephen Roach to explain why bonds
may continue to rise, as deflation comes to America:
The American economy now has a record exposure to
global competition. In the second quarter of 2000,
America imported a third as many goods as it
--- Devine, James [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I don't agree with that theory.
Charles J writes:
I have no doubt that the US's extremely large
jail populations and active duty military
help
keep unemployment quite a bit lower than if
the
US fit the OECD pattern in these areas. It
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