Wednesday, July 28, 2004
Its the End of the World as We Know It
By Thomas Wheeler
Review of The End of Suburbia - Oil Depletion and the Collapse of the
American Dream (The Electric Wallpaper Co., c/o VisionTV, 80 Bond
Street, Toronto, Ontario, Canada, M5B 1X2, 87 minute DVD,
US$27.75/C$34.50
On Thursday, June 28, 2001 at 19:41:21 (-0700) Michael Perelman writes:
Mark, please refrain from telling us what you think Doug thinks.
Especially when it is so far from the mark as to become crude and ugly
pastiche.
Bill
Bill, please, this is throwing gasoline on the fire.
On Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 07:25:21AM -0500, William S. Lear wrote:
On Thursday, June 28, 2001 at 19:41:21 (-0700) Michael Perelman writes:
Mark, please refrain from telling us what you think Doug thinks.
Especially when it is so far from
- Original Message -
From: Mark Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Comments after passages:
Probably things like this make me suspect that Doug is a closet fan of
capitalism:
You can hardly open a newspaper or turn on the TV (well, at least
tuned to certain channels) without hearing
Ken, I hope that you sent this before I issued my ultimatum calling for a
halt to this sort of exchange.
On Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 08:49:43PM -0500, Ken Hanly wrote:
- Original Message -
From: Mark Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Comments after passages:
Probably things like this
William S. Lear:
Especially when it is so far from the mark as to become crude and ugly
pastiche.
Bill, don't get into this, unless you are really looking for trouble. I
cannot begin to tell you just how unimpressive you are. Don't make me start.
Because I have a strong urge to tell you what
Yoshie Furuhashi wrote:
American suburbia is too low-density to be ecologically sound.
Cities need multi-family dwellings. Besides, it doesn't have
sidewalks. Without cafes, sidewalks, people-watching, you don't
get a feeling of urbanity.
Clearly you're suffering from malignant alienation
suburbia is the most destructive form of habitation. There is a nice
literature on greenbelt cities by Howard, which describes the efficiencies
of linking town and country.
As to backbreaking work -- no -- industrial ag. is backbreaking.
Gardening is not for most people.
You might
in new jersey, the epitome of urban sprawl, various townships
are considering regulations that disallow one famous and much
desired NJ feature - cul-de-sacs. while homes on cul-de-sacs
are much sought after in the sprawled out mega-developments of
NJ, they, the townships argue, contribute to
Clearly you're suffering from malignant alienation. We need to reduce
the human population by 90% and all get back to the land, tilling the
soil from dawn to dusk, literacy a fading memory, and antibiotics
too. Backbreaking work and short lives, but at least we'd be rooted
in soil and place.
Yoshie:
* One of the key characteristics of development, the
demographic transition is the gradual changeover from a demographic
equilibrium of high death rates and high birth rates, characteristic
of pre-industrial society, to a demographic equilibrium of low death
rates and low birth
At 10:40 AM 6/28/01 -0400, you wrote:
Yoshie Furuhashi wrote:
American suburbia is too low-density to be ecologically sound. Cities
need multi-family dwellings. Besides, it doesn't have
sidewalks. Without cafes, sidewalks, people-watching, you don't get a
feeling of urbanity.
Clearly
Yoshie Furuhashi wrote:
Diseases existed before capitalism
No, it can't be! It was all egalitarian, peaceful, and idyllic before
we were expelled from Eden, I mean before capitalism ruined
everything. No hierarchy, class, patriarchy, tedium, alienation, or
disease. People sat around the
No, it can't be! It was all egalitarian, peaceful, and idyllic before
we were expelled from Eden, I mean before capitalism ruined
everything. No hierarchy, class, patriarchy, tedium, alienation, or
disease. People sat around the campfire, trading stories, strumming
ur-banjos, and
Lou says:
Yoshie:
* One of the key characteristics of development, the
demographic transition is the gradual changeover from a demographic
equilibrium of high death rates and high birth rates, characteristic
of pre-industrial society, to a demographic equilibrium of low death
rates and low
://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
- Original Message -
From: Doug Henwood [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 9:51 AM
Subject: [PEN-L:14238] Re: The Vulnerable Planet (was Re: suburbia)
Yoshie Furuhashi wrote:
Diseases existed before capitalism
No, it can't
BTW, it's a mistake to conflate the invasion of the
New World by
European germs with the European distribution of
germ-ridden
blankets to the native Americans, as Louis seems to
do. Though the
Europeans did engage in conscious germ warfare, a
lot of the plagues
were spread simply by
J. B. Foster again:
* Other ancient tributary formations declined because of the
same set of environmental factors. In Mesoamerica, Mayan
civilization collapsed around 800 A.D., due in part to extensive
tropical deforestation and erosion. An agricultural crisis thus
appears to have
Louis wrote:
A pre-industrial society? You mean like London in the 14th century with
streets functioning as open sewers, rats running loose, people crowded
together in hovels. This obviously is not what I meant. I was referring to,
for example, life in Mexico City before Cortez which in many ways
Yoshie:
Looking at the rise decline of Mayan civilization allows us to see
the pre-capitalist dialectic of population environment under a
tributary mode of production more clearly than looking at the Aztecs.
No, Yoshie. The classic Mayan civilization had disintegrated long before
the arrival
Lou says:
Yoshie:
Looking at the rise decline of Mayan civilization allows us to see
the pre-capitalist dialectic of population environment under a
tributary mode of production more clearly than looking at the Aztecs.
No, Yoshie. The classic Mayan civilization had disintegrated long before
Jim says:
J. B. Foster again:
* Other ancient tributary formations declined because of the
same set of environmental factors. In Mesoamerica, Mayan
civilization collapsed around 800 A.D., due in part to extensive
tropical deforestation and erosion. An agricultural crisis thus
Yoshie Furuhashi
The task for the 21st century is to ... modernize agriculture industry
globally
It's only about five minutes ago that you were telling us that this was
impossible and could never happen:
I'm simply saying that worrying about what will happen if everyone in
the world gets to
At 11:37 AM 6/28/01 -0700, you wrote:
if everywhere you went
you noticed that half the people you came in contact
with died, wouldn't you feel that maybe you should
stop going places? Whether or not the spread of
disease was an _active_ measure, it certainly was a
_conscious_ one.
right. I doubt
Jared Diamond's book, GUNS, GERMS, AND STEEL is pretty good on this stuff.
BTW, it's a mistake to conflate the invasion of the New World by European
germs with the European distribution of germ-ridden blankets to the native
Americans, as Louis seems to do. Though the Europeans did engage in
Yoshie:
Looking at the rise decline of Mayan civilization allows us to see
the pre-capitalist dialectic of population environment under a
tributary mode of production more clearly than looking at the Aztecs.
No, Yoshie. The classic Mayan civilization had disintegrated long before
the arrival
Yoshie:
Looking at the rise decline of Mayan civilization allows us to see
the pre-capitalist dialectic of population environment under a
tributary mode of production more clearly than looking at the Aztecs.
No, Yoshie. The classic Mayan civilization had disintegrated long before
the arrival
- Original Message -
From: Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 11:52 AM
Subject: [PEN-L:14268] Re: Re: Re: The Vulnerable Planet (was Re: suburbia)
At 11:37 AM 6/28/01 -0700, you wrote:
if everywhere you went
you noticed that half the people you came
- Original Message -
From: Michael Pugliese [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 12:34 PM
Subject: Fw: [PEN-L:14277] Re: Re: The Vulnerable Planet (was Re: suburbia)
Just a reminder, in the next few months, try to give a look see to,
The
Ecological
throwing themselves on hubbies funeral
pyre etc.etc.etc.
Cheers, Ken Hanly
- Original Message -
From: Louis Proyect [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 10:43 AM
Subject: [PEN-L:14213] Re: Re: Re: suburbia
Clearly you're suffering from malignant
PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 10:43 AM
Subject: [PEN-L:14213] Re: Re: Re: suburbia
Clearly you're suffering from malignant alienation. We need to reduce
the human population by 90% and all get back to the land, tilling the
soil from dawn to dusk, literacy a fading memory
So do you have some good comparative statistics re life expectancy,
stillbirths, etc. in traditional versus modern societies.
And do you think that we should not violently reconstruct traditional
societies by banning such practices as binding women's feet,
clitoral mutilation, widows joyously
So do you have some good comparative statistics re life expectancy,
stillbirths, etc. in traditional versus modern societies.
And do you think that we should not violently reconstruct traditional
societies by banning such practices as binding women's feet,
clitoral mutilation, widows joyously
Mark Jones wrote:
The USA is
inefficient.
That's not what Doug Henwood thinks, is it? Or is the productivity miracle a
myth just like the New Economy turned out to be?
I suppose my ego should take some cheer from the fact that you've
achieved a certain otherwise gratifying fame when
Mark says:
Yoshie Furuhashi:
It's impossible to modernize industry agriculture globally _under
capitalism_, but _under socialism_ it is possible.
How? Slogans don't cut it.
First of all, doing away with capitalist relations of production
allows you to cut such capitalist discipline (=
.
Therefore,
Louis is a strange progressive Marxist..
but that is hardly news...
Cheers, Ken Hanly
- Original Message -
From: Louis Proyect [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 2:54 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:14287] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: suburbia
So do you have
Perhaps it would be better if Mark told us where he gets the idea that
Doug embraces such ideology? Or is it imagined that Doug does so?
Steve
On Thu, 28 Jun 2001, Doug Henwood wrote:
Mark Jones wrote:
The USA is
inefficient.
That's not what Doug Henwood thinks, is it? Or is the
Why equate modernity with colonialism, as colonizers have us do? Why
not socialist modernism, with Bauhaus emancipated womanhood!
Yoshie
I don't equate modernity with colonialism. People like Frank Furedi, Eduard
Bernstein, Hardt and Negri do.
Louis Proyect
Marxism mailing list:
In your own words, Not only is the archaelogical record subject to
multiple interpretations, the hieroglyphic language is not entirely
decipherable despite the best efforts of scholars like Robert J.
Sharer, so there's no last word here.
It is the last word in the sense that Sharer is the
Lou says:
In your own words, Not only is the archaelogical record subject to
multiple interpretations, the hieroglyphic language is not entirely
decipherable despite the best efforts of scholars like Robert J.
Sharer, so there's no last word here.
It is the last word in the sense that Sharer
Louis Proyect [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
Hernando Cortés on Mexico City in 1527:
This noble city contains many fine and magnificent houses; [etc.]
Tenochtitlán was the impressive center of the Aztec Empire, a despotism with
a steep social structure. At the top, there was a military, religious, and
Julio Huato:
IMO, at least to the extent that it affects most directly the lives of
people in Mexico, the worst environmental conditions are associated not with
modern capitalist production but with backward, transitional forms of
capitalist production and even pre-capitalist production. (I
Thank you.
Are there any currents in Mexican politics that share the alienated
Northerner's nostalgia for Pre-Hispanic Mexico?
Doug
Actually, Cardenas's party--which your interviewee tonight described as
moribund--is very much in sync with Julio Huato. One supposes that its
embrace of NAFTA,
Louis Proyect [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
On Mexico's border, 'prosperity' has an ugly side
By Diego Ribadeneira, Globe Staff
NOGALES, Mexico -- Paradise lost. Those are the words many here use to
describe this remote and beautiful corner where Mexico meets Arizona.
A once-pristine region of deep blue
Louis Proyect [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
Actually, Cardenas's party--which your interviewee tonight described as
moribund--is very much in sync with Julio Huato. One supposes that its
embrace of NAFTA, as opposed to the romantic Chiapas unabomber-type
resistance to the imperialist penetration of Mexico,
Mark also tells us about Doug's love of capitalism:
(Doug writes)My point was this: life on the capitalist periphery is not
some
simple narrative of relentless decline. There has been real progress
in a lot of places and in a lot of ways. [pen-l 02 May 2001 18:18 UTC ]
Mark:
Doug even thinks
Please, Stephen, cool it. I am trying to stop the nastiness.
On Thu, Jun 28, 2001 at 06:44:47PM -1000, Stephen E Philion wrote:
Mark also tells us about Doug's love of capitalism:
(Doug writes)My point was this: life on the capitalist periphery is not
some
simple narrative of relentless
Yoshie Furuhashi:
It's impossible to modernize industry agriculture globally _under
capitalism_, but _under socialism_ it is possible.
How? Slogans don't cut it.
The USA is
inefficient.
That's not what Doug Henwood thinks, is it? Or is the productivity miracle a
myth just like the New
Stephen E Philion
Perhaps it would be better if Mark told us where he gets the idea that
Doug embraces such ideology? Or is it imagined that Doug does so?
Steve
On Thu, 28 Jun 2001, Doug Henwood wrote:
Mark Jones wrote:
The USA is
inefficient.
That's not what Doug Henwood
sense. Is there
some compelling reason, other than the fact that Marx Engels urged
it, to do this?
Doug
American suburbia is too low-density to be ecologically sound.
Cities need multi-family dwellings. Besides, it doesn't have
sidewalks. Without cafes, sidewalks, people-watching, you
American suburbia is too low-density to be ecologically sound.
Cities need multi-family dwellings. Besides, it doesn't have
sidewalks. Without cafes, sidewalks, people-watching, you don't
get a feeling of urbanity.
Flowers, vegetables, other perishables are best grown close
--- Ian Murray [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Well then, move to Seattle :-)
dreariest place on earth...
tim
=
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at all. Suburbia represents white flight from post-WWII megapolises
like NYC, Chicago, etc. What I am talking about has never really existed.
Modern cities were created as a response to the capitalist market. The sort
of city I am talking about will emerge as a response to socialist planning
Carrol Cox wrote:
Even from a long range perspective, eliminating the difference between
city and country means industrializing (citifying) the country as well
as 'ruralizing' the city.
Sorta sounds like the American suburb, which is hardly a
prefiguration of utopia in any social or ecological
at all. Suburbia represents white flight from post-WWII megapolises
like NYC, Chicago, etc. What I am talking about has never really existed.
Modern cities were created as a response to the capitalist market. The sort
of city I am talking about will emerge as a response to socialist planning
. They
write at length about the New Deal planned community of Greenbelt, Md., as
a potential model for public housing in suburbia
Louis Proyect
Baxandall is co-editor (with Linda Gordon) of _America's Working Women:
1600 to the Present_ and Ewen is author of _Immigrant Women in the Land
of Dollars: Life
NY Times, February 27, 2000
Picture Windows: How the Suburbs Happened
By ROSALYN BAXANDALL and ELIZABETH EWEN
Reviewed by SAMUEL G. FREEDMAN
(clip)
For all their populism, however, Baxandall and Ewen have not written an
apologia for suburbia. Their book will unsettle the social conservatives
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