Re: [PEN-L] Blindly operating averages and price-value divergence

Walt Byers wrote: Also, could anyone tell me of the secondary works discussing Marx's views on price-value divergence that they know of. I tend to agree with Michael Heinrich http://www.oekonomiekritik.de that value and price are simply categories existing at different levels of abstraction

Re: [PEN-L] Blindly operating averages and price-value divergence

--- Angelus Novus wrote: For an account of how the monetary theory of value differs from traditional Marxist accounts, there are good introductory texts in English at http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/heinrich031106.html and http://info.interactivist.net/article.pl?sid=06/07/28/1916205mode

Re: [PEN-L] Blindly operating averages and price-value divergence

activity. It's a bonus that Marx nicely subverts the whole issue of methodological individualism vs. collectivism/institutionalism. ;-) --- michael a. lebowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 17:58 29/11/2006, Angelus Novus wrote: Walt Byers wrote: Also, could anyone tell me of the secondary

Re: [PEN-L] Blindly operating averages and price-value divergence

--- Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The word essence, unfortunately, has idealist connotations. But abstract labour *is* an ideal! It is because commodities are exchanged through a universal medium (money) that their physical qualities are necessarily abstracted from in favor of a shared

Re: [PEN-L] Blindly operating averages and price-value divergence

--- Carrol Cox [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A quick note. I think AN did a terrible disservice to this discussion by using the term ideal here. Abstract labor is _not_ an ideal in any sense, any more than gravity is. Neither is visible nor can be touched. It is utterly confusing to use ideal

Re: [PEN-L] Stan Goff's statement

--- Yoshie Furuhashi quoting Stan Goff: Stan writes: The Marxist doctrinal belief that the working class represents the potentially liberatory force within the primary contradiction One should expect that somebody with such a poor understanding of Marx would come to reject Marxism. From:

Re: [PEN-L] Stan Goff's statement

PROTECTED] wrote: Angelus Novus wrote:--- Could you indicate a bit more clearly who is saying what in your post. Are all the words after the URL by Stan Goff? Carrol Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about

Re: [PEN-L] recession?

--- Carrol Cox [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think that is probably the trap Stan Goff has fallen into. For him, it seems that marxism was an empirical description of the world. When that empirical description (as he understood it) clashed with his perceptions of current actuality, he

Re: [PEN-L] Stan Goff's statement

--- Leigh Meyers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's the elitists, opportunists amd pedants that require one to be able to recite Grundisse, whoever that person was, as a bar to entry in their little 'intellectual's club'. I don't know wheter Marxism is cult, but I certainly think the entire

Re: [PEN-L] Stan Goff's statement

--- Yoshie Furuhashi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Capitalist relations of production, however, never automatically come into contradiction with capitalist forces of production, or at least they have not and they are not likely to. I agree with this. The Krisis group, with their Toffleresque

[PEN-L] On Windows of Opportunity

--- Yoshie Furuhashi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A social movement, especially one with an ambition to present an alternative to capitalist modernity, needs a world view, a world view that inspires people to have faith in the work they must do in the face of adversity. I'm skeptical as to

[PEN-L] idiot me needs URL

hello all, can somebody provide me with the URL for the original Stan Goff piece on leaving Marxism? I can't find it in my inbox so I assumed I deleted whatever email I had containing it. thank you. __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail

Re: [PEN-L] Idea of Rapid Withdrawal from Iraq Fast Receding

--- Yoshie Furuhashi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What is important, however, is that the question of undocumented immigrants, unlike that of civil rights, i.e., de jure equality, for Blacks, women, homosexuals, the disabled, and so on, cannot be solved within the existing legal framework of a

Re: [PEN-L] Welcoming Stan Goff Out of Marxism

--- Leigh Meyers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No he didn't, the mistake is to interpret what he's saying as relevant to any society other than industrial societies, which by their very nature are *Never* going to be an ideal social systems. A common mistake of Marxism is also assuming that

Re: [PEN-L] Welcoming Stan Goff Out of Marxism

--- Louis Proyect [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So what explains the transition from the Roman Empire to feudalism? You got me there. I don't know, what? I've read and appreciate Perry Anderson's book. When you're talking about an entire ensemble of social relationships and ideological forms of

Re: [PEN-L] Welcoming Stan Goff Out of Marxism

--- Yoshie Furuhashi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So, I'd say that there has been and will be cross-fertilization between Marxist standpoints and other standpoints, sometimes due to people literally going back and forth between the two or more. Sure. Like I said in the blog entry, I think

Re: [PEN-L] Welcoming Stan Goff Out of Marxism

--- Doyle Saylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't think it takes much for Marx to be relevant. I never said it did. I wish people would stop equating Marx with Marxism. The poor soul doesn't deserve it. Your computer metaphor is too restrictive. All of the above really are about the

Re: [PEN-L] Welcoming Stan Goff Out of Marxism

--- Louis Proyect [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually, I think that base-superstructure Marxism is not Marxism at all. I'm glad you don't adhere to base-superstructure models. Nevertheless, you must admit that such notions were widely prevalent in the historical workers movement, especially in

Re: [PEN-L] Welcoming Stan Goff Out of Marxism

--- Louis Proyect [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All? You mean those debates between Rosa Luxemburg and Edward Bernstein didn't happen? But Rosa Luxemburg was a marginal figure to the mainstream of Social Democracy! Granted, these days her name is used in vain by the non-profit foundation of a

Re: [PEN-L] Welcoming Stan Goff Out of Marxism

--- Carrol Cox [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Angelus Novus wrote: As far as Stan Goff's departure goes, I think the burden of proof is on the advocates of Marx-ism to make their case for Marx-ism's relevance. Why? Why debate the issue at all? Because, at least to me, Capital, passages

Re: [PEN-L] Launching The Class Tango Theory of History

--- Sandwichman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dance IS the revolution. Man kann versteinerte Verhältnisse zum Tanzen zwingen, wenn man ihnen ihre eigene Melodie vorspielt. ;-) Have a burning question? Go to

Re: [PEN-L] Austrian Rabbi cautions against strategic abuse of the Holocaust

--- Leigh Meyers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Jewish figure noted, We should focus on the reality that the behind-the-curtain individuals and financial providers as well as perpetrators of some of the World War II crimes had been Zionists themselves. And the use of this classical

Re: [PEN-L] Austrian Rabbi cautions against strategic abuse of the Holocaust

--- Leigh Meyers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: AFAICT, the people who are disparaging this conference also disparage complex thinking... unless it's their thoughts or someone who agrees with their line of thinking. I admire your openness and lack of guile in defending a conference of Holocaust

Re: [PEN-L] Robert Brenner responds

Louis or Charles or somebody, Is there I way I might receive the three attached articles Brenner refers to at the end? I would like to read them. Thank you, AN --- Charles Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: * To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * Subject: Robert

Re: [PEN-L] Winston Churchill refutes the Brenner thesis

--- Louis Proyect [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, as I tried to point out already, Marx's comments on slavery appeared mostly in the form of oberta dictum. And if you define capitalism as requiring a free market in labor, then Nazi Germany and apartheid South Africa were not capitalist

Re: [PEN-L] Winston Churchill refutes the Brenner thesis

--- Louis Proyect [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It seems most unlikely that the crowning heights of the South African economy was non-capitalist. When you end up with describing DeBeers as non-capitalist and some machine shop with 100 highly paid white workers as capitalist, then your

Re: [PEN-L] Winston Churchill refutes the Brenner thesis

--- Louis Proyect [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So how would you describe King Leopold's Congo? When you say describe, do you mean describe in the sense of capitalist or not-capitalist? This is not a useful way of proceeding. What about Venezuela? capitalist or not? Cuba? China? How about

Re: [PEN-L] Winston Churchill refutes the Brenner thesis

--- Louis Proyect [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The same way that feudalism was abolished in a number of countries in Europe over about a century and a half. How was feudalism abolished? By decree? Capitalism might be a global system, but it does not operate in Cuba. Now we have entered the

Re: [PEN-L] Winston Churchill refutes the Brenner thesis

--- Louis Proyect [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Don't waste my time with interrogations. If you have your own ideas, put them forward. I think I am asking fair questions. I think the anti-capitalist process in Venezuela is far more dynamic than currently in Cuba, especially in terms of popular

Re: [PEN-L] death of liberalism

--- Yoshie Furuhashi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On such questions as race, gender, and sexuality, most of them are content with the liberal discourse of rights; This illustrates the problem with statements like socialists have xyz... Many socialists I know do not discuss these things in terms

Re: [PEN-L] death of liberalism

--- Yoshie Furuhashi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Some political theorists, like Theda Skocpol, suggest that peasants, not wage workers, have more of what it takes to make social revolution, contrary to Marx and Marxists' suggestion that wage workers are to be the main collective agent of it.

[PEN-L] Book Announcement: Capital (it fails us now)

http://www.bbooks.de/verlag/capitalfails/index.html Simon Sheikh (Ed.) · oe~ Capital (it fails us now) critical readers in visual culture #6 2006 · 368 p. · english · 16 € · ISBN 3-933557-69-0 CAPITAL (IT FAILS US NOW) / the reader: What does it mean to live under certain historical

Re: [PEN-L] Felix Morrow on religion

--- Doug Henwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: not terribly religious in the Western European social democracies, where the working classes have historically been among the strongest in the world Are you talking about Old or New Europe? ;-) In East Germany, the Lutheran church has been engaged

Re: [PEN-L] Felix Morrow on religion

--- Carrol Cox [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lenin argued (contra Trotsky) that unless there were many more Father Gapons there would be no revolution. Pro- or Contra-Father Gapon is for me not so much an interesting question. Far more interesting is to investigate the constellation of social and

Re: [PEN-L] Marxism and Religion

Yoshie Furuhashi wrote: an American Trotskyist Felix Morrow's diatribe against religion FWIW, Felix Morrow is not representative of all Trotskyists on these matters. Michael Löwy's book on Liberation Theology is rather more differentiated:

[PEN-L] Summer of Class Struggle in Germany?

[strike vote passed on Monday with 95.8 percent in favor! - AN] Mehdorn Sees Red by Rainer Balcerowiak The dream of every wanderer – an idyllic rest upon a train platform free of traffic – might be fulfilled for a while from the middle of next week thanks to the Locomotive Engineer’s Trade