In a message dated 10/4/02 4:26:04 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Hi Tom,
I just want to repeat something I said earlier. Maybe you missed it, it is easy to do that on this prolific list. Fascism is a concept as well as a word with historical-polical meaning. You can take
Title: Re: [PEN-L:30870] Jim Crow Fascism (was Re: bullying)
Hi Tom,
I just want to repeat something I said earlier. Maybe you missed it, it is easy to do that on this prolific list. Fascism is a concept as well as a word with historical-polical meaning. You can take the overall intent
In a message dated 10/1/02 7:28:57 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Carrol Cox wrote:
But again, my central point is that incontinent use of the label
"fascist" shows a naive faith in the goodness of simple capitalist
democracy.
If capitalist democracy were such a total
In a message dated 10/1/02 6:07:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Carrol Cox wrote,
To call the Bush administration fascist is capitalist apologetics.
It is also bad American history. The Bush administration's ideological
extremism is as "American as cherry pie". Fascism
"What made up the fascist character of the counter revolution was not simply its brutality or violence, but the fact that the 'revolt of the poor whites' cloaked itself in the mantle of saving the South. The fascist led 'revolt' was the absolute agent of finance capital of the North. The
Title: RE: [PEN-L:30837] Re: bullying
I wrote:I'm not the one doing the reifying. It's the people in the U.S. who do so. If the left ever wants to get anywhere, it needs to be conscious of political opinion (without kow-towing to it).
Charles J. writes:
Why don't you cite just one opinion
--- Devine, James [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I wrote:I'm not the one doing the reifying.
It's the people in the U.S.
who do so. If the left ever wants to get
anywhere, it needs to be conscious
of political opinion (without kow-towing to
it).
Charles J. writes:
Why don't you cite just
When I see evidence of the rise of a fascist
government, my own government, it is my duty and
my nature to say 'yep, looks like fascism to me.'
When I hear a person express frustration at the
lack of visible resistance to what is shaping up
to be unchecked global military domination, the
least I
://www.monthlyreview.org/0702dunbar.htm
US-style leftism is a complex thing :-
Seth Sandronsky
Re: bullying
by Tom Walker
02 October 2002
Carrol Cox wrote,
To call the Bush administration fascist is capitalist apologetics.
It is also bad American history. The Bush administration's ideological
is
probably what we should give them.
-Original Message-
From: Charles Jannuzi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 1:11 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [PEN-L:30792] Re: bullying
BTW2, after Saddam (and before him, Milosevic),
who will be official US
But they still
rule from within the law, and with a mandate from
the America people.
Which laws are we talking about? Milosevic ruled
from within the laws of his own country in doing
some of the things he now stands internationally
condemned for doing, though he also violated
many, too. As for
--- Devine, James [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
whatever the functionality of of 'American
democracy' is, we have to
recognize that the vast majority of U.S.
citizens see the country as
democratic, though they usually see that
democracy as flawed. The Bill of
Rights is especially popular.
-style leftism is a complex thing :-
Seth Sandronsky
Re: bullying
by Tom Walker
02 October 2002
Carrol Cox wrote,
To call the Bush administration fascist is capitalist apologetics.
It is also bad American history. The Bush administration's ideological
extremism is as American as cherry pie
Title: RE: [PEN-L:30825] Re: bullying
Charles writes:
Sure, people in the armed forces would tell you
they were happy with American democracy, even
though most don't even have the basic rights of
citizens. Most wouldn't know they had given up
those rights when they joined. Most would
I'm not the one doing the reifying. It's the
people in the U.S. who do so. If the left ever
wants to get anywhere, it needs to be conscious
of political opinion (without kow-towing to it).
The Bill of Rights wasn't given. It represents
a victory of the more plebian social forces of
the age (an
This is not the way that we communicate here on this list. Please, cool
it.
On Wed, Oct 02, 2002 at 04:04:18PM -0700, Charles Jannuzi wrote:
Why don't you cite just one opinion poll that
supports your assertion--at least that way I'll
have something of substance to rip to shreds.
Michael
You are reading far too much emotion into it.
Obviously, it's a complete failure to
communicate, which seems to characterize much of
your list when it's the same key players as Doug
Fernwood's list,including Fernwood himself. I
mean, just how do you guys communicate? It looks
about as
That would be your decision. You have considerable information to
contribute, but bringing disputes over from other lists poisons the
discussion here. It's your choice whether you want to participate or not,
but participation will require a moderation of the behavior.
On Wed, Oct 02, 2002 at
Michael
1. I answered your rhetorical question: it was
the Sandanistas who stood up to the US. Noriega
did too, and actually put together a better
military campaign against US forces than Hussein.
2. Why would you go out on the list as if to say
the discussion was so unfruitful since for the
I don't think your rant is mindless, Michael. I really do believe we are
watching the rise of a kinder, sneakier fascism. It is just as racist and
as violent as the old fascism, but more totalitarian and therefore more
sublimated, couched in euphemisms about ending world hunger and such.
Don't
Lisa Stolarski wrote:
I don't think your rant is mindless, Michael. I really do believe we are
watching the rise of a kinder, sneakier fascism. It is just as racist and
as violent as the old fascism, but more totalitarian and therefore more
sublimated, couched in euphemisms about ending
--- Carrol Cox [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Let's leave aside what was an aberration even
for fascism, the
Holocaust. Let's also get rid of that word
totalitarianism, the
primary reason for its use being to equate
Stalin with Hitler. (I'm
neither defending nor attacking Stalin, I'm
just
Title: RE: [PEN-L:30786] Re: bullying
This is almost like self-enforced 'political
correctness' from concerned parties of the left.
Don't use that word 'fascist', they'll just make
us eat our words.
I think the problem is that the word fascism has been over-used. Back in the 1960s
Devine, James wrote:
This is almost like self-enforced 'political
correctness' from concerned parties of the left.
Don't use that word 'fascist', they'll just make
us eat our words.
I think the problem is that the word fascism has been over-used.
Back in the 1960s, it became a
Carrol Cox wrote:
But again, my central point is that incontinent use of the label
fascist shows a naive faith in the goodness of simple capitalist
democracy.
If capitalist democracy were such a total sham, how come you're not
in jail? Is it just because you're so marginal? Or is the thing
If capitalist democracy were such a total sham,
how come you're not
in jail? Is it just because you're so marginal?
Or is the thing
actually a little roommier than Germany in
1938?
Doug
Doesn't the US criminal justice system now
encompass 2 million incarcerated and 1 million
under
Stark alternatives -- those who don't have naive faith must believe the
thing is a total sham. One could base a fundamentalism on such a
dichotomy. It may sound like a pedantic distinction, but capitalist
democracy is not a synonym for bourgeois democracy.
Capitalist democracy or democratic
Tom wrote:
Stark alternatives -- those who don't have
naive faith must believe the thing is a
total sham. One could base a fundamentalism
on such a dichotomy.
This has always been my problem with many a discussions on this
and most other lists. It is as if people, not just the ones on
this
--- Carrol Cox [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
; or maybe, I am just too naive.
Sabri, you simply have to acknowledge that a
maillist post, usually a
fairly hastily written first draft, and almost
always rather short for
the topics being covered, is not an article in
a scholarly journal.
Carrol Cox wrote:
But again, my central point is that incontinent use of the label
fascist shows a naive faith in the goodness of simple capitalist
democracy.
If capitalist democracy were such a total sham, how come you're not
in jail? Is it just because you're so marginal? Or is the thing
--- Tom Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Carrol Cox wrote,
To call the Bush administration fascist is
capitalist apologetics.
It is also bad American history. The Bush
administration's ideological
extremism is as American as cherry pie.
Fascism was European and too
damned intellectual.
Tom Walker wrote:
Stark alternatives -- those who don't have naive faith must believe the
thing is a total sham. One could base a fundamentalism on such a
dichotomy. It may sound like a pedantic distinction, but capitalist
democracy is not a synonym for bourgeois democracy.
And Doug
Sabri Oncu wrote:
Tom wrote:
Stark alternatives -- those who don't have
naive faith must believe the thing is a
total sham. One could base a fundamentalism
on such a dichotomy.
This has always been my problem with many a discussions on this
and most other lists. It is as if
Title: Re: [PEN-L:30788] RE: Re: bullying
Well perhaps it might be helpful to define what I mean when I use the word 'fascist' since I brought it up. I mean a military industrial complex which increasingly seeks control of its own people as well as other peoples and nations. I mean a political
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