On 10/16/2011 02:03 PM, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
Mariano I think that the point that Philippe (our national butcher) is trying
to make is the following:
If by design a serializer takes the perspective that it will be able to load
old formats and ensure
evolution all the time then you have a
Mariano Martinez Peck wrote:
Well...thanks guys. The point is taken. Thanks Philip, Bill and all
who gave feedback and suggestions. We are aware of this and we are
already discussing with Martin possible solutions and analyzing all
the things that has been said in this thread.
We will keep
On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 12:54 PM, Ben Coman b...@openinworld.com wrote:
Mariano Martinez Peck wrote:
Well...thanks guys. The point is taken. Thanks Philip, Bill and all who
gave feedback and suggestions. We are aware of this and we are already
discussing with Martin possible solutions and
On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 1:00 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck
marianop...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 12:54 PM, Ben Coman b...@openinworld.com wrote:
Mariano Martinez Peck wrote:
Well...thanks guys. The point is taken. Thanks Philip, Bill and all who
gave feedback and suggestions.
On 20 October 2011 13:01, Mariano Martinez Peck marianop...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 1:00 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck
marianop...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 12:54 PM, Ben Coman b...@openinworld.com wrote:
Mariano Martinez Peck wrote:
Well...thanks guys. The
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] When will Fuel file format stabilize?
On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 12:54 PM, Ben Coman
b...@openinworld.commailto:b...@openinworld.com wrote:
Mariano Martinez Peck wrote:
Well...thanks guys. The point is taken. Thanks Philip, Bill and all who gave
feedback and suggestions. We
...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 7:00 AM
To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] When will Fuel file format stabilize?
On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 12:54 PM, Ben Coman b...@openinworld.commailto:
b...@openinworld.com wrote:
Mariano Martinez Peck wrote:
Well
: Re: [Pharo-project] When will Fuel file format stabilize?
On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 3:01 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck
marianop...@gmail.commailto:marianop...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 2:03 PM, Stéphane Ducasse
stephane.duca...@inria.frmailto:stephane.duca...@inria.fr wrote
My 2 cents:
i understand that people want to have backwards compatibility, so they
could read even 10 years old data from files.
now, it could mean a lot of effort to do that.
For instance, if your binary model is spawned along 30 classes, then
in order to support 2 versions of it,
you need
On 15.10.2011 15:06, Martin Dias wrote:
I like the ideas of Stef and Ben of loading multiple fuel versions at
the same time. Do you know something done in that sense?
Martín
On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 7:09 AM, Mariano Martinez Peck
marianop...@gmail.com
mailto:marianop...@gmail.com wrote:
Mariano I think that the point that Philippe (our national butcher) is trying
to make is the following:
If by design a serializer takes the perspective that it will be able to load
old formats and ensure
evolution all the time then you have a really cool serializer.
Now why in fuel it is not
On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 2:03 PM, Stéphane Ducasse stephane.duca...@inria.fr
wrote:
Mariano I think that the point that Philippe (our national butcher) is
trying to make is the following:
If by design a serializer takes the perspective that it will be able to
load old formats and ensure
On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 3:01 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck
marianop...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 2:03 PM, Stéphane Ducasse
stephane.duca...@inria.fr wrote:
Mariano I think that the point that Philippe (our national butcher) is
trying to make is the following:
If by design a
: Sunday, October 16, 2011 9:03 AM
To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] When will Fuel file format stabilize?
On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 3:01 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck
marianop...@gmail.commailto:marianop...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 2:03 PM, Stéphane
Yes, I know. The problem is if it is worth it. The effort of providing such
feature could be too much in compare to just load a previous version,
materialize, load new version, and serialize again.
for a serializer I think that it is worth it.
I once used a backup system which used a
It sounds easy, but at least from what I can see this is very complicated.
Do you know a serializer that support this? Lets clarify with an example:
(of course, without putting all along the code IFs like (version 2) ifTrue:
[blabla] )
of course we are smalltalkers no? :)
It means
...@lists.gforge.inria.fr
[pharo-project-boun...@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Mariano Martinez
Peck [marianop...@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 9:03 AM
To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] When will Fuel file format stabilize?
On Sun, Oct
On 11.10.2011 21:51, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote:
On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 8:55 AM, Philippe Marschall
philippe.marsch...@netcetera.ch
mailto:philippe.marsch...@netcetera.ch wrote:
On 10/08/2011 10:42 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote:
s
This is IMHO more than
On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 11:49 AM, Philippe Marschall kus...@gmx.net wrote:
On 11.10.2011 21:51, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote:
On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 8:55 AM, Philippe Marschall
philippe.marsch...@netcetera.ch
mailto:philippe.marsch...@netcetera.ch wrote:
On 10/08/2011 10:42 PM,
I like the ideas of Stef and Ben of loading multiple fuel versions at the
same time. Do you know something done in that sense?
Martín
On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 7:09 AM, Mariano Martinez Peck
marianop...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 11:49 AM, Philippe Marschall kus...@gmx.netwrote:
-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] When will Fuel file format stabilize?
I like the ideas of Stef and Ben of loading multiple fuel versions at the same
time. Do you know something done in that sense?
Martín
On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 7:09 AM, Mariano Martinez Peck
marianop
Mariano Martinez Peck wrote:
This is IMHO more than necessary for Fuel to
become a production ready
serializer and I'd say Fuel is now "old enough" to become such :)
Yes.
Now what I would love is that even if fuel changes that the evolution
of information
is taken into
On 10/08/2011 10:42 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote:
s
This is IMHO more than necessary for Fuel to become a production ready
serializer and I'd say Fuel is now old enough to become such :)
Yes.
Now what I would love is that even if fuel changes that the evolution of
information
is
...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 4:59 PM
To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] When will Fuel file format stabilize?
I concur with Mariano.
In production images, you want probably stick with concrete
verision(s) of frameworks you using and don't
Mariano
I think that evolution and migration is key if we want to use fuel for loading
code.
This is why in MCZ you have always the source files. In case of trouble.
It is important to use the current situation as case for evolution.
I like the idea of igor of having class that represent
On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 2:33 AM, Yanni Chiu ya...@rogers.com wrote:
On 10/10/11 2:43 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote:
On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 6:50 PM, Yanni Chiu ya...@rogers.com
For the case where a lot of serialized files need to be converted,
having two versions in memory is
On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 5:51 AM, Igor Stasenko siguc...@gmail.com wrote:
On 11 October 2011 00:57, Stefan Marr ph...@stefan-marr.de wrote:
On 10 Oct 2011, at 23:25, Igor Stasenko wrote:
On 11 October 2011 00:19, Schwab,Wilhelm K bsch...@anest.ufl.edu
wrote:
True, but what about
On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 8:55 AM, Philippe Marschall
philippe.marsch...@netcetera.ch wrote:
On 10/08/2011 10:42 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote:
s
This is IMHO more than necessary for Fuel to become a production ready
serializer and I'd say Fuel is now old enough to become such :)
On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 9:10 AM, Stéphane Ducasse stephane.duca...@inria.fr
wrote:
Mariano
I think that evolution and migration is key if we want to use fuel for
loading code.
This is why in MCZ you have always the source files. In case of trouble.
Exactly! and even more, you NEED the
On 11 October 2011 22:52, Mariano Martinez Peck marianop...@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 9:10 AM, Stéphane Ducasse
stephane.duca...@inria.fr wrote:
Mariano
I think that evolution and migration is key if we want to use fuel for
loading code.
This is why in MCZ you have always
On 08/10/11 6:03 PM, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
Mariano
No, that's impossible, and if posible, it is not worth it.
Migrating from an old format to a new one is extremelly complicated
and innecessary. The easiest way to solve this is to take the
correct version of Fuel, materialize the graph from
Maybe the way to go is to provide a metadescription of the changes done to
the format since last version. That way, you can use it to convert your
serialized objects from one version to another (even back and forward).
That's what I think databases do, if you update your version, you have to
Thanks guys for all the answers and ideas. I really appreaciate all of them.
And in fact, this thread would probably be a source of information for
Fuel's future work.
But so far, nobody (janko?) yet answer my initial question of this thread.
So I will copy paste it here and I will be willing to
On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 6:50 PM, Yanni Chiu ya...@rogers.com wrote:
On 08/10/11 6:03 PM, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
Mariano
No, that's impossible, and if posible, it is not worth it.
Migrating from an old format to a new one is extremelly complicated
and innecessary. The easiest way to
I concur with Mariano.
In production images, you want probably stick with concrete
verision(s) of frameworks you using and don't
follow the bleeding edge. Because if you do, then you spending time on
coping up with latest and greatest
versions of these frameworks instead of spending time on
:)
From: pharo-project-boun...@lists.gforge.inria.fr
[pharo-project-boun...@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Igor Stasenko
[siguc...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 4:59 PM
To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] When will Fuel file format
will Fuel file format stabilize?
I concur with Mariano.
In production images, you want probably stick with concrete
verision(s) of frameworks you using and don't
follow the bleeding edge. Because if you do, then you spending time on
coping up with latest and greatest
versions of these frameworks
...@lists.gforge.inria.fr [
pharo-project-boun...@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Igor Stasenko [
siguc...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 4:59 PM
To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] When will Fuel file format stabilize?
I concur with Mariano.
In production images
Stasenko
[siguc...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 4:59 PM
To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] When will Fuel file format stabilize?
I concur with Mariano.
In production images, you want probably stick with concrete
verision(s) of frameworks you using
On 10 Oct 2011, at 23:25, Igor Stasenko wrote:
On 11 October 2011 00:19, Schwab,Wilhelm K bsch...@anest.ufl.edu wrote:
True, but what about reading data from five years ago? I have ten year old
Dolphin STB that I can still load.
to my experience a 10 years old data has very small
: Monday, October 10, 2011 5:30 PM
To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] When will Fuel file format stabilize?
2011/10/10 Igor Stasenko siguc...@gmail.com:
On 11 October 2011 00:19, Schwab,Wilhelm K bsch...@anest.ufl.edu wrote:
True, but what about reading data from
...@stefan-marr.de]
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 5:57 PM
To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] When will Fuel file format stabilize?
On 10 Oct 2011, at 23:25, Igor Stasenko wrote:
On 11 October 2011 00:19, Schwab,Wilhelm K bsch...@anest.ufl.edu wrote:
True, but what about
.
From: pharo-project-boun...@lists.gforge.inria.fr
[pharo-project-boun...@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Schwab,Wilhelm K
[bsch...@anest.ufl.edu]
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 6:32 PM
To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] When will Fuel file format stabilize
On 10/10/11 2:43 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote:
On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 6:50 PM, Yanni Chiu ya...@rogers.com
For the case where a lot of serialized files need to be converted,
having two versions in memory is almost a necessity;
heheheheh how people could live with ReferenceStream
On 11 October 2011 00:57, Stefan Marr ph...@stefan-marr.de wrote:
On 10 Oct 2011, at 23:25, Igor Stasenko wrote:
On 11 October 2011 00:19, Schwab,Wilhelm K bsch...@anest.ufl.edu wrote:
True, but what about reading data from five years ago? I have ten year old
Dolphin STB that I can still
On Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 12:03 AM, Stéphane Ducasse stephane.duca...@inria.fr
wrote:
Mariano
No, that's impossible, and if posible, it is not worth it. Migrating from
an old format to a new one is extremelly complicated and innecessary. The
easiest way to solve this is to take the correct
I wonder if it would be possible for you to come up with a separate
format, whose purpose was only ever for this purpose. It would not
need to be efficient in any respect, just something you could write
out to file (say) during the process. It would be a shame to rely on
the whole graph needing to
.co.uk]
Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2011 10:30 AM
To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] When will Fuel file format stabilize?
I wonder if it would be possible for you to come up with a separate
format, whose purpose was only ever for this purpose. It would not
need
Hi guys,
We are starting to use Fuel to exchange data daily, but without exactly
the same version of Fuel loaded, exported data is just too frequently
not importable anymore. And exception report is meaningless, you can
only guess that Fuel version is to blame.
So, it is more that a time to:
On Oct 8, 2011, at 5:56 PM, Janko Mivšek wrote:
Hi guys,
We are starting to use Fuel to exchange data daily, but without exactly
the same version of Fuel loaded, exported data is just too frequently
not importable anymore. And exception report is meaningless, you can
only guess that Fuel
2011/10/8 Janko Mivšek janko.miv...@eranova.si
Hi guys,
We are starting to use Fuel to exchange data daily, but without exactly
the same version of Fuel loaded, exported data is just too frequently
not importable anymore.
Yes, that's true. We are changing its format all the time.
And
s
This is IMHO more than necessary for Fuel to become a production ready
serializer and I'd say Fuel is now old enough to become such :)
Yes.
Now what I would love is that even if fuel changes that the evolution of
information
is taken into account because like that it will be
Mariano
No, that's impossible, and if posible, it is not worth it. Migrating from an
old format to a new one is extremelly complicated and innecessary. The
easiest way to solve this is to take the correct version of Fuel, materialize
the graph from the stream, load new version of Fuel,
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