[Phono-L] DD Metal Finishes
It seems there is some confusion, at least on my part, regarding the finishes on DD reproducers and horn necks, etc. Obviously there is no question what is gold or nickel. Oxidized bronze is another question. What the company called oxidized bronze was the finish used up until the very end of production, even used on the C-1 and C-2 combinations. A very early DD finish may also seem to be called oxidized bronze by some. This has a body that is almost black with copper markings, somewhat like tiger markings. Is this what some refer to as oxidized bronze? Was this used on the early A-250 and is this is what's on Andy's machine? Does this color have a name different from oxidized bronze? If I had to come up with a name for it, it would be 'oxidized tiger bronze'. (that's what it looks like to me:-) Thanks in advance for clearing this up for me. Bruce From gpaul2...@aol.com Sat Jun 23 11:11:51 2007 From: gpaul2...@aol.com (gpaul2...@aol.com) Date: Sat Jun 23 11:12:54 2007 Subject: [Phono-L] DD Metal Finishes In-Reply-To: 000a01c7b5a9$257abe10$af9bb...@vaio References: 000a01c7b5a9$257abe10$af9bb...@vaio Message-ID: 8c983d91b5e4ddf-1644-d...@webmail-de08.sysops.aol.com Bruce, The Edison catalogs described the finish of the metal parts on the Amberola IA/IB, Idelia, A-150, etc as oxidized bronze. You point out that This has a body that is almost black with copper markings, somewhat like tiger markings. Edison literature called it oxidized bronze, so that's what I have always called it. I have observed collectors refer to gunmetal as oxidized bronze and apply the name to other metal finishes as well. It's no wonder some confusion exists! George Paul AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. From pjfra...@alamedanet.net Sat Jun 23 12:02:34 2007 From: pjfra...@alamedanet.net (Peter Fraser) Date: Sat Jun 23 12:05:44 2007 Subject: [Phono-L] the early a-250 References: bae519f8-7d62-4007-a215-4a706ae57...@mac.com Message-ID: 4a4d2598-ff3a-4ec6-91eb-5c0a51870...@alamedanet.net Hi - Well, I heard back from Ron Dethlefson, and enclose his response below. And here are the pictures of Andy's machine, plus some additional oxidozed bronze hardware pix from Bruce Mercer: http://homepage.mac.com/pjfraser/phono/PhotoAlbum233.html the password is pook2e (no quotes). For large-scale versions of the pix, use the slideshow button, or single-click the individual shot in which you're interested. Cheers, Peter pjfra...@alamedanet.net Begin forwarded message: From: ronald dethlefson r2d...@pacbell.net Date: June 23, 2007 9:53:26 AM PDT To: Peter Fraser pjfra...@mac.com Subject: Re: pictures of the early a-250 Nephew, Yes, the stop mechanism shown is the first one. It's the same as on my A-250 #161. I've seen these mechanisms on #158 and #171. They probably were on the first 200 A250s manufactured in late 1912, according to Frow. A250s through #1200 were manufactured by March 1913, again according to Frow. The sound vents in the sides of the cabinets ended about #1200 too. I suspect that the stop mechanism was changed due to some patent issue. So much of the factory documentation was destroyed in the Dec. 1914 fire that the only way to document changes in Model A pnonographs is to look at the machines themselves. At least we now know that the first stop mechanism, was in use into the 1400 range of serial numbers. One other Model A tidbit. I've never seen a Model A 250 numbered lower than #109. This leads me to suspect that serial numbers began with 100. The highest Model A 250 serial number I've ever seen was in the mid-12,000 range of numbers. Regards, Uncle On Jun 22, 2007, at 11:58 PM, Peter Fraser wrote: Early_A_250_levers.jpg Early_A_250_levers Later_A-250_controls.jpg Later_A-250_controls A_250_bedplate_detail.jpg A_250_bedplate_detail -- Peter pjfra...@mac.com
[Phono-L] the early a-250
I sent this to Andrew but neglected to send it to the list The machine serial number plate is SM 3435 and the mecanism bedplate is 3435 A1 and the stop is identical to the early adjustable one you have pictured. The case is oak. No side vents in the cabinet. I can not get at the back of the machine without moving several others so I can not tell you what the label on the back door reads. On Sat, 23 Jun 2007 12:02:34 -0700, Peter Fraser wrote: Hi - Well, I heard back from Ron Dethlefson, and enclose his response below. And here are the pictures of Andy's machine, plus some additional oxidozed bronze hardware pix from Bruce Mercer: http://homepage.mac.com/pjfraser/phono/PhotoAlbum233.html the password is pook2e (no quotes). For large-scale versions of the pix, use the slideshow button, or single-click the individual shot in which you're interested. Cheers, Peter pjfra...@alamedanet.net From: ronald dethlefson r2d...@pacbell.net Date: June 23, 2007 9:53:26 AM PDT To: Peter Fraser pjfra...@mac.com Subject: Re: pictures of the early a-250 Nephew, Yes, the stop mechanism shown is the first one. It's the same as on my A-250 #161. I've seen these mechanisms on #158 and #171. They probably were on the first 200 A250s manufactured in late 1912, according to Frow. A250s through #1200 were manufactured by March 1913, again according to Frow. The sound vents in the sides of the cabinets ended about #1200 too. I suspect that the stop mechanism was changed due to some patent issue. So much of the factory documentation was destroyed in the Dec. 1914 fire that the only way to document changes in Model A pnonographs is to look at the machines themselves. At least we now know that the first stop mechanism, was in use into the 1400 range of serial numbers. One other Model A tidbit. I've never seen a Model A 250 numbered lower than #109. This leads me to suspect that serial numbers began with 100. The highest Model A 250 serial number I've ever seen was in the mid-12,000 range of numbers. Regards, Uncle On Jun 22, 2007, at 11:58 PM, Peter Fraser wrote: Early_A_250_levers.jpg Early_A_250_levers Later_A-250_controls.jpg Later_A-250_controls A_250_bedplate_detail.jpg A_250_bedplate_detail -- Peter pjfra...@mac.com ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] DD Metal Finishes
I was starting to wonder about this myself! Seems like there were at least two if not three variations of the oxidized bronze finish -- the Idelia's tiger stripes, the Opera's broken glass pattern, and the ringlet finish in these pictures of Andy's DD reproducer. Any specifics on these patterns, or was all that info lost in the fire as well? Best, Robert - Original Message - From: gpaul2...@aol.com To: phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 1:11 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] DD Metal Finishes Bruce, The Edison catalogs described the finish of the metal parts on the Amberola IA/IB, Idelia, A-150, etc as oxidized bronze. You point out that This has a body that is almost black with copper markings, somewhat like tiger markings. Edison literature called it oxidized bronze, so that's what I have always called it. I have observed collectors refer to gunmetal as oxidized bronze and apply the name to other metal finishes as well. It's no wonder some confusion exists! George Paul AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] DD Metal Finishes
The pattern is done by hand after the part is plated and then oxidized. The color will vary between a dark brown to almost black depending on the chemicals used to darken the copper plate. After the part is washed it is then polished with very fine polishing compound in spots to from the pattern. It is a very common finishing technique. On Sat, 23 Jun 2007 15:16:56 -0500, Robert Wright wrote: I was starting to wonder about this myself! Seems like there were at least two if not three variations of the oxidized bronze finish -- the Idelia's tiger stripes, the Opera's broken glass pattern, and the ringlet finish in these pictures of Andy's DD reproducer. Any specifics on these patterns, or was all that info lost in the fire as well? Best, Robert - Original Message - From: gpaul2...@aol.com To: phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 1:11 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] DD Metal Finishes Bruce, The Edison catalogs described the finish of the metal parts on the Amberola IA/IB, Idelia, A-150, etc as oxidized bronze. You point out that This has a body that is almost black with copper markings, somewhat like tiger markings. Edison literature called it oxidized bronze, so that's what I have always called it. I have observed collectors refer to gunmetal as oxidized bronze and apply the name to other metal finishes as well. It's no wonder some confusion exists! George Paul AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] DD Metal Finishes
i believe these were at the whim of the individual worker. this technique is not exclusive to Edison or to phonographs - it was just a common decorative finish of the early 20th century, and the patterns were hand applied. i had it explained to me once...something to do with selective blocking of the oxidation process by putting on a coating of some sort, which allowed the copper underneath to be revealed as a pattern. On Jun 23, 2007, at 1:16 PM, Robert Wright wrote: I was starting to wonder about this myself! Seems like there were at least two if not three variations of the oxidized bronze finish -- the Idelia's tiger stripes, the Opera's broken glass pattern, and the ringlet finish in these pictures of Andy's DD reproducer. Any specifics on these patterns, or was all that info lost in the fire as well? Best, Robert - Original Message - From: gpaul2...@aol.com To: phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 1:11 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] DD Metal Finishes Bruce, The Edison catalogs described the finish of the metal parts on the Amberola IA/IB, Idelia, A-150, etc as oxidized bronze. You point out that This has a body that is almost black with copper markings, somewhat like tiger markings. Edison literature called it oxidized bronze, so that's what I have always called it. I have observed collectors refer to gunmetal as oxidized bronze and apply the name to other metal finishes as well. It's no wonder some confusion exists! George Paul _ ___ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] the early a-250
The highest Model A 250 serial number I've ever seen was in the mid-12,000 range of numbers. Hmm, my own A250 is numbered 12080, so I guess it is later in production than I thought. Either that or it is the one that Ron is talking about since he's been to my house a few times. There is another difference int he A-250 that I haven't found in the others. The lock mechanism takes a key that has only one notch cut into the 'tooth', not two as in all other DDs I have had or seen. I have a Dolphin key that has the one notch cut in it as the other will not fit. John Robles Peter Fraser pjfra...@alamedanet.net wrote: Hi - Well, I heard back from Ron Dethlefson, and enclose his response below. And here are the pictures of Andy's machine, plus some additional oxidozed bronze hardware pix from Bruce Mercer: http://homepage.mac.com/pjfraser/phono/PhotoAlbum233.html the password is pook2e (no quotes). For large-scale versions of the pix, use the slideshow button, or single-click the individual shot in which you're interested. Cheers, Peter pjfra...@alamedanet.net Begin forwarded message: From: ronald dethlefson Date: June 23, 2007 9:53:26 AM PDT To: Peter Fraser Subject: Re: pictures of the early a-250 Nephew, Yes, the stop mechanism shown is the first one. It's the same as on my A-250 #161. I've seen these mechanisms on #158 and #171. They probably were on the first 200 A250s manufactured in late 1912, according to Frow. A250s through #1200 were manufactured by March 1913, again according to Frow. The sound vents in the sides of the cabinets ended about #1200 too. I suspect that the stop mechanism was changed due to some patent issue. So much of the factory documentation was destroyed in the Dec. 1914 fire that the only way to document changes in Model A pnonographs is to look at the machines themselves. At least we now know that the first stop mechanism, was in use into the 1400 range of serial numbers. One other Model A tidbit. I've never seen a Model A 250 numbered lower than #109. This leads me to suspect that serial numbers began with 100. The highest Model A 250 serial number I've ever seen was in the mid-12,000 range of numbers. Regards, Uncle On Jun 22, 2007, at 11:58 PM, Peter Fraser wrote: Early_A_250_levers Later_A-250_controls A_250_bedplate_detail -- Peter pjfra...@mac.com ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] the early a-250
Thanks, Peter for this very welcome report. I've just returned from a day out in my vintage car and will take some time to review these latest comments and reply, most likely tomorrow. Thanks also for posting the images and password so that others can conveniently view them. Fascinating stuff about the serial numbers. I can add more to this when I get a moment. Thanks to Peter, Ron, George, John, Rich and Bruce for the input. If any others of our readers have more to add to the serial numbers and details of the A-250 or other first-generation D.D. phonographs, I'd love to include the data in our compilation. Best to All, Andy Baron On Jun 23, 2007, at 5:24 PM, john robles wrote: The highest Model A 250 serial number I've ever seen was in the mid-12,000 range of numbers. Hmm, my own A250 is numbered 12080, so I guess it is later in production than I thought. Either that or it is the one that Ron is talking about since he's been to my house a few times. There is another difference int he A-250 that I haven't found in the others. The lock mechanism takes a key that has only one notch cut into the 'tooth', not two as in all other DDs I have had or seen. I have a Dolphin key that has the one notch cut in it as the other will not fit. John Robles Peter Fraser pjfra...@alamedanet.net wrote: Hi - Well, I heard back from Ron Dethlefson, and enclose his response below. And here are the pictures of Andy's machine, plus some additional oxidozed bronze hardware pix from Bruce Mercer: http://homepage.mac.com/pjfraser/phono/PhotoAlbum233.html the password is pook2e (no quotes). For large-scale versions of the pix, use the slideshow button, or single-click the individual shot in which you're interested. Cheers, Peter pjfra...@alamedanet.net Begin forwarded message: From: ronald dethlefson Date: June 23, 2007 9:53:26 AM PDT To: Peter Fraser Subject: Re: pictures of the early a-250 Nephew, Yes, the stop mechanism shown is the first one. It's the same as on my A-250 #161. I've seen these mechanisms on #158 and #171. They probably were on the first 200 A250s manufactured in late 1912, according to Frow. A250s through #1200 were manufactured by March 1913, again according to Frow. The sound vents in the sides of the cabinets ended about #1200 too. I suspect that the stop mechanism was changed due to some patent issue. So much of the factory documentation was destroyed in the Dec. 1914 fire that the only way to document changes in Model A pnonographs is to look at the machines themselves. At least we now know that the first stop mechanism, was in use into the 1400 range of serial numbers. One other Model A tidbit. I've never seen a Model A 250 numbered lower than #109. This leads me to suspect that serial numbers began with 100. The highest Model A 250 serial number I've ever seen was in the mid-12,000 range of numbers. Regards, Uncle On Jun 22, 2007, at 11:58 PM, Peter Fraser wrote: Early_A_250_levers Later_A-250_controls A_250_bedplate_detail -- Peter pjfra...@mac.com ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] the early a-250
What kind of vintage car you got? [Original Message] From: Andrew Baron a...@popyrus.com To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Date: 6/23/2007 11:05:01 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] the early a-250 Thanks, Peter for this very welcome report. I've just returned from a day out in my vintage car and will take some time to review these latest comments and reply, most likely tomorrow. Thanks also for posting the images and password so that others can conveniently view them. Fascinating stuff about the serial numbers. I can add more to this when I get a moment. Thanks to Peter, Ron, George, John, Rich and Bruce for the input. If any others of our readers have more to add to the serial numbers and details of the A-250 or other first-generation D.D. phonographs, I'd love to include the data in our compilation. Best to All, Andy Baron On Jun 23, 2007, at 5:24 PM, john robles wrote: The highest Model A 250 serial number I've ever seen was in the mid-12,000 range of numbers. Hmm, my own A250 is numbered 12080, so I guess it is later in production than I thought. Either that or it is the one that Ron is talking about since he's been to my house a few times. There is another difference int he A-250 that I haven't found in the others. The lock mechanism takes a key that has only one notch cut into the 'tooth', not two as in all other DDs I have had or seen. I have a Dolphin key that has the one notch cut in it as the other will not fit. John Robles Peter Fraser pjfra...@alamedanet.net wrote: Hi - Well, I heard back from Ron Dethlefson, and enclose his response below. And here are the pictures of Andy's machine, plus some additional oxidozed bronze hardware pix from Bruce Mercer: http://homepage.mac.com/pjfraser/phono/PhotoAlbum233.html the password is pook2e (no quotes). For large-scale versions of the pix, use the slideshow button, or single-click the individual shot in which you're interested. Cheers, Peter pjfra...@alamedanet.net Begin forwarded message: From: ronald dethlefson Date: June 23, 2007 9:53:26 AM PDT To: Peter Fraser Subject: Re: pictures of the early a-250 Nephew, Yes, the stop mechanism shown is the first one. It's the same as on my A-250 #161. I've seen these mechanisms on #158 and #171. They probably were on the first 200 A250s manufactured in late 1912, according to Frow. A250s through #1200 were manufactured by March 1913, again according to Frow. The sound vents in the sides of the cabinets ended about #1200 too. I suspect that the stop mechanism was changed due to some patent issue. So much of the factory documentation was destroyed in the Dec. 1914 fire that the only way to document changes in Model A pnonographs is to look at the machines themselves. At least we now know that the first stop mechanism, was in use into the 1400 range of serial numbers. One other Model A tidbit. I've never seen a Model A 250 numbered lower than #109. This leads me to suspect that serial numbers began with 100. The highest Model A 250 serial number I've ever seen was in the mid-12,000 range of numbers. Regards, Uncle On Jun 22, 2007, at 11:58 PM, Peter Fraser wrote: Early_A_250_levers Later_A-250_controls A_250_bedplate_detail -- Peter pjfra...@mac.com ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] the early a-250
Andy, Please add the mahogany A250 in my collection, serial number 3215, to the list that uses the two piece hinged stop finger. I hesitate to describe this as a user adjustable or semi automatic stop until that has be established through research. The use a riveted joint to provide stop adjustment is not good engineering prctice because the joint would soon wear and slip. Also, notice the tab to hold the finger in the fully extended position as in the one piece design. I that suspect that the hinged finger has to do with motor servicing. The A-250 motor plate is not bolted to the case like on the later C-250 but hinged on the right in the same way as theAmberola 1 (B) mechanism. To service the Amberola the motor it is tilted up on the left and placed on the metal prop at the left end. I think this was planned for the A-250. Being able to retract the stop finger from overhanging the motorplate provided the ability to do this. What is not clear to me at this point is how to easily disengage the horn drive mechanism (rack) to allow the motor plate to swing up completely without removing it from the pivots. Perhaps we can investigate this. If it was not found impractical perhaps the hinged finger design was scrapped. Are there examples of A-250's without the hinged motor plate which use the later 3 bolt mounting design? That would also be a reason to abandon the hinged stop finger. I would be most happy if you post the results of your survey. Peter, thanks for posting the photos. Best Regards, Mark Silver Spring, MD [Original Message] From: Andrew Baron a...@popyrus.com To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Date: 6/23/2007 11:05:00 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] the early a-250 Thanks, Peter for this very welcome report. I've just returned from a day out in my vintage car and will take some time to review these latest comments and reply, most likely tomorrow. Thanks also for posting the images and password so that others can conveniently view them. Fascinating stuff about the serial numbers. I can add more to this when I get a moment. Thanks to Peter, Ron, George, John, Rich and Bruce for the input. If any others of our readers have more to add to the serial numbers and details of the A-250 or other first-generation D.D. phonographs, I'd love to include the data in our compilation. Best to All, Andy Baron On Jun 23, 2007, at 5:24 PM, john robles wrote: The highest Model A 250 serial number I've ever seen was in the mid-12,000 range of numbers. Hmm, my own A250 is numbered 12080, so I guess it is later in production than I thought. Either that or it is the one that Ron is talking about since he's been to my house a few times. There is another difference int he A-250 that I haven't found in the others. The lock mechanism takes a key that has only one notch cut into the 'tooth', not two as in all other DDs I have had or seen. I have a Dolphin key that has the one notch cut in it as the other will not fit. John Robles Peter Fraser pjfra...@alamedanet.net wrote: Hi - Well, I heard back from Ron Dethlefson, and enclose his response below. And here are the pictures of Andy's machine, plus some additional oxidozed bronze hardware pix from Bruce Mercer: http://homepage.mac.com/pjfraser/phono/PhotoAlbum233.html the password is pook2e (no quotes). For large-scale versions of the pix, use the slideshow button, or single-click the individual shot in which you're interested. Cheers, Peter pjfra...@alamedanet.net Begin forwarded message: From: ronald dethlefson Date: June 23, 2007 9:53:26 AM PDT To: Peter Fraser Subject: Re: pictures of the early a-250 Nephew, Yes, the stop mechanism shown is the first one. It's the same as on my A-250 #161. I've seen these mechanisms on #158 and #171. They probably were on the first 200 A250s manufactured in late 1912, according to Frow. A250s through #1200 were manufactured by March 1913, again according to Frow. The sound vents in the sides of the cabinets ended about #1200 too. I suspect that the stop mechanism was changed due to some patent issue. So much of the factory documentation was destroyed in the Dec. 1914 fire that the only way to document changes in Model A pnonographs is to look at the machines themselves. At least we now know that the first stop mechanism, was in use into the 1400 range of serial numbers. One other Model A tidbit. I've never seen a Model A 250 numbered lower than #109. This leads me to suspect that serial numbers began with 100. The highest Model A 250 serial number I've ever seen was in the mid-12,000 range of numbers. Regards, Uncle On Jun 22, 2007, at 11:58 PM, Peter Fraser wrote: Early_A_250_levers Later_A-250_controls A_250_bedplate_detail -- Peter pjfra...@mac.com
