Re: [Phono-L] Columbia Viva-Tonal model 710
Hi Jim, There have been a number of discussions about the Columbia 600, 700, and 800 series VivaTonals on the Talking Machine Forum (TMF). I posted some pictures of my 810 in the following link: http://forum.talkingmachine.info/viewtopic.php?f=2t=12865hilit=columbia+810start=10 I believe that there are some good pictures of the 710 model there as well. The TMF has an excellent search feature. You can search on the above topics and see all the threads that have been written about them over the last several years. If you still need close up pictures of my 810, let me know and I can try to get them for your. Greg Bogantz - Original Message - From: Antique Phonograph List To: 'Antique Phonograph List' Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2015 12:14 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Columbia Viva-Tonal model 710 Dear Mr. Bogantz: I have both 800 810 Viva-tonals unfortunately the cabinet of the latter was stripped, effacing the decoration the original knobs were replaced.I’d like to have an artist friend recreate the decorations.Could you possibly send me detailed close up photos of the cabinet decoration knobs?There are faint remnants of green paint along the lower grooved part of the cabinet. Many thanks! Jim Cartwright Immortal Performances, Inc. -- From: Antique Phonograph List [mailto:phono-l@oldcrank.org] Sent: Friday, August 07, 2015 10:22 PM To: Antique Phonograph List Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Columbia Viva-Tonal model 710 I have the Columbia 613 and 810, both VivaTonal models. The 600 series has a simple curved wooden horn, nearly identical to those used in the small Victor ortho machines such as the 4-3. And the small Columbias sound very similar to the small Victors which is very good for their size. The 800 series Columbias have very large horns and were supposed to compete with the large horn Victors such as the Credenza. But the large Columbia horn is NOT exponential in taper and does not sound as good as the big Victors. The big Columbia sound is a bit muddier with noticeably less treble. I don't know about the 700 series Columbias, but I would assume that the horns in them are similar to the mid-size Victors. But if I were to guess, I'd assume that the mid-size Columbias probably are not quite as good sounding as the mid-size Victors. The big Columbia horn is made of a number of flat and curved pieces of wood that must be sealed at their joints. And these seals will likely need to be renewed during your restoration. The Columbia motors are quiet and smooth. They all incorporate an automatic shutoff that must be set for the record ending diameter in a way similar to the early Victor shutoff mechanisms. All the Columbia VivaTonals use the #15 reproducer which has the distinct advantage that it has NO potmetal parts. It is easily rebuildable, but it uses an unusual molded rubber coupling that mounts the body to the metal sleeve that is used to connect with the tonearm. These original rubber bits will almost certainly be turned to stone, but so far as I know there are no reproductions of them available. Most people who own these have finagled a custom replacement frammis of some type to replace the rubber piece. People's opinions on the sound of the reproducers vary. But the Columbia #15 is heavier than the Victor #5 ortho and has a stiffer (lower) compliance with a higher mechanical resonance. This results in less bass and a response that is tilted toward a higher midrangey sound. I have made a set of adapters that allows me to mount either reproducer on both Columbia VivaTonal and Victor ortho machines. My opinion is that the Columbia #15 is not as good sounding as the Victor #5 when used on any of the phonographs. The Columbia reproducer has less bass response and higher distortion while also producing more record wear due to the higher tracking force due to its higher weight and its lower compliance. Still, the Columbia VivaTonal machines are nice enough sounding and make a good comparison of the technologies of the two companies' products of the same vintage. Greg Bogantz - Original Message - From: Antique Phonograph List To: phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Friday, August 07, 2015 10:01 PM Subject: [Phono-L] Columbia Viva-Tonal model 710 I've wanted to have a nice Columbia Viva-Tonal phonograph for a long time, and now I have the opportunity to buy a model 710. Not being famailiar with these -- I've never actually seen one in person -- I'm wondering what kind of cosmetic work this will need. It seems the green trim paint is faded in some places, and largely gone in others (note front center above the speaker grille in the second photo). The nickel plating on the tone arm and reproducer appears to be heavily oxidized
Re: [Phono-L] Columbia Viva-Tonal model 710
Dear Greg, Thanks for your reply. A while back I made a similar requeston PhonoL for photos of the 810 details but at that time had only dialup so could not download a photo with decent definition. Now I have higher speed internet so am trying again. By the way, sadly neither my 800 nor my 810 has any type of automatic or semi-automatic stop. I love the Columbia non-set automatic stop wish these deluxe machines had been so equipped. All good wishes... Very truly yours, Jim Cartwright Immortal Performances, Inc. _ From: Antique Phonograph List [mailto:phono-l@oldcrank.org] Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2015 9:41 PM To: Antique Phonograph List Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Columbia Viva-Tonal model 710 Hi Jim, There have been a number of discussions about the Columbia 600, 700, and 800 series VivaTonals on the Talking Machine Forum (TMF). I posted some pictures of my 810 in the following link: http://forum.talkingmachine.info/viewtopic.php?f=2 http://mandrillapp.com/track/click/30365713/forum.talkingmachine.info?p=eyJ zIjoiekNzN09RdUh2ejhRbDljVzRfUTVVTy12bjBjIiwidiI6MSwicCI6IntcInVcIjozMDM2NTc xMyxcInZcIjoxLFwidXJsXCI6XCJodHRwOlxcXC9cXFwvZm9ydW0udGFsa2luZ21hY2hpbmUuaW5 mb1xcXC92aWV3dG9waWMucGhwP2Y9MiZ0PTEyODY1JmhpbGl0PWNvbHVtYmlhKzgxMCZzdGFydD0 xMFwiLFwiaWRcIjpcImRmZDdkOTBmNzAzODRmYmE5MGY2ZDU0MzMzZjEyZjFiXCIsXCJ1cmxfaWR zXCI6W1wiYzJlODJkMDg1Y2ZmM2RjZDIyZjRjZjliODFmOTQwMjZiZWE2MGIwM1wiXX0ifQ t=12865hilit=columbia+810start=10 I believe that there are some good pictures of the 710 model there as well. The TMF has an excellent search feature. You can search on the above topics and see all the threads that have been written about them over the last several years. If you still need close up pictures of my 810, let me know and I can try to get them for your. Greg Bogantz - Original Message - From: Antique mailto:phono-l@oldcrank.org Phonograph List To: 'Antique mailto:phono-l@oldcrank.org Phonograph List' Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2015 12:14 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Columbia Viva-Tonal model 710 Dear Mr. Bogantz: I have both 800 810 Viva-tonals unfortunately the cabinet of the latter was stripped, effacing the decoration the original knobs were replaced.I'd like to have an artist friend recreate the decorations.Could you possibly send me detailed close up photos of the cabinet decoration knobs?There are faint remnants of green paint along the lower grooved part of the cabinet. Many thanks! Jim Cartwright Immortal Performances, Inc. _ From: Antique Phonograph List [mailto:phono-l@oldcrank.org] Sent: Friday, August 07, 2015 10:22 PM To: Antique Phonograph List Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Columbia Viva-Tonal model 710 I have the Columbia 613 and 810, both VivaTonal models. The 600 series has a simple curved wooden horn, nearly identical to those used in the small Victor ortho machines such as the 4-3. And the small Columbias sound very similar to the small Victors which is very good for their size. The 800 series Columbias have very large horns and were supposed to compete with the large horn Victors such as the Credenza. But the large Columbia horn is NOT exponential in taper and does not sound as good as the big Victors. The big Columbia sound is a bit muddier with noticeably less treble. I don't know about the 700 series Columbias, but I would assume that the horns in them are similar to the mid-size Victors. But if I were to guess, I'd assume that the mid-size Columbias probably are not quite as good sounding as the mid-size Victors. The big Columbia horn is made of a number of flat and curved pieces of wood that must be sealed at their joints. And these seals will likely need to be renewed during your restoration. The Columbia motors are quiet and smooth. They all incorporate an automatic shutoff that must be set for the record ending diameter in a way similar to the early Victor shutoff mechanisms. All the Columbia VivaTonals use the #15 reproducer which has the distinct advantage that it has NO potmetal parts. It is easily rebuildable, but it uses an unusual molded rubber coupling that mounts the body to the metal sleeve that is used to connect with the tonearm. These original rubber bits will almost certainly be turned to stone, but so far as I know there are no reproductions of them available. Most people who own these have finagled a custom replacement frammis of some type to replace the rubber piece. People's opinions on the sound of the reproducers vary. But the Columbia #15 is heavier than the Victor #5 ortho and has a stiffer (lower) compliance with a higher mechanical resonance. This results in less bass and a response that is tilted toward a higher midrangey sound. I have made a set of adapters that allows me to mount either reproducer on both Columbia VivaTonal and Victor ortho machines. My opinion is that the Columbia #15
Re: [Phono-L] Columbia Viva-Tonal model 710
Steve, I agree that the VivaTonals can sound better than the Orthophonics, and
so can the Brunswick Panatropes.John Robles
From: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org
To: phono-l@oldcrank.org phono-l@oldcrank.org
Sent: Friday, August 7, 2015 7:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Columbia Viva-Tonal model 710
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steve_nor...@msn.com
Send me a photo of the reproducer or let me know what is says on the back, if
it is the one I think it is they are all brass and easy to rebuild. I will
take flak for this, but when I tested an Orthophonic No. 5 Victor and a
Viva-Tonal reproducer on my Victor VI the Viva-Tonal sounded better. This was
a fair comparison of both reproducers with the same horn. Naturally the
Orthophonic No. 5 Victor sounded much better on my VV 8-12 than it does on my
Victor VI. Personally I think the Viva-Tonal is a better reproducer for two
reasons. It is much, much, much easier to rebuild and it does not have the
unwanted sound coming from the other side not connected to the horn. Mr.
Orthophonic tells me it is incorrect to test the Orthophonic No. 5 Victor
independently from the machine due to the matched impedance and I agree.
Ever wonder why Victor Orthophonic machines tell you to close the lid or put
the cap with the felt on the suitcase models? To deaden the unwanted sound
which the Viva-Tonal does not have to the same degree.
I do have a world famous friend who feels the Viva-Tonals sound better than the
Victor Orthophonic machines, he is in a position to sound test, I am not, as he
owns both with practically all model of both. I can only sound test on Victor
VI. Interestingly the Viva-Tonal uses the same size ball bearings as the first
style Orthophonic No. 5 Victor. As long as I am taking flak I also enjoy
paying my monthly bills.
Sound is objective, I spoke with another famous man who restores early sound
systems like the Edison C-2 and he as the equipment to measure sound. Some
people can only hear a limited range of sound, others had very differing
opinions of the same sound. Some people like Larry can pick out all the
instruments in an orchestra record while others can only differentiate volume.
Steve
From: phono-l@oldcrank.org
Subject: [Phono-L] Columbia Viva-Tonal model 710
To: phono-l@oldcrank.org
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2015 02:08:49 +
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{font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;}#yiv8346558363 I've wanted to have a nice
Columbia Viva-Tonal phonograph for a long time, and now I have the opportunity
to buy a model 710. Not being famailiar with these -- I've never actually seen
one in person -- I'm wondering what kind of cosmetic work this will need. It
seems the green trim paint is faded in some places, and largely gone in others
(note front center above the speaker grille in the second photo). The nickel
plating on the tone arm and reproducer appears to be heavily oxidized, as well.
I don't know what other cosmetic or mechanical issues it may have; are there
common known issues with this model, and with Viva-Tonals in general? Do the
horns usually need to be re-sealed? Are the reproducers pot metal? I've read
these don't have a stop; does that mean it doesn't have an automatic stop, or
(forgive me) any stop at all? How do these machines sound, in general?
(Personally, I don't think Grafonolas sound very good.) Finally, the seller
says he won't take any less than $225 for it; I know value is in the eye of the
beholder, but does this seem reasonable to you, or is it way out of line?
Re: [Phono-L] Columbia Viva-Tonal model 710
Dear Steve: Who restores Edison C-s radio-phonograph combinations?I've been trying to get mine restored for close to twenty years. Originally had three, had three chassis sent for restoration only two chassis came back person to whom I'd sent these did not respond or cash $ 25 cheque I'd sent to cover shipping of third chassis.Radios work OK, but phono is very weak even 'tho I've had pickups rebuilt I'm told former repairs used incorrect interstage audio transformers.Would love to get these units functioning properly. What type of transformer should replace interstage audio transformers? I can hook the pickup up to an Edison radio which is all original sound is superb so I know the combination units should be equally magnificent when playing diamond discs. Jim Cartwright Immortal Performances, Inc. _ From: Antique Phonograph List [mailto:phono-l@oldcrank.org] Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2015 1:09 AM To: Antique Phonograph List Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Columbia Viva-Tonal model 710 Steve, I agree that the VivaTonals can sound better than the Orthophonics, and so can the Brunswick Panatropes. John Robles _ From: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org To: phono-l@oldcrank.org phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Friday, August 7, 2015 7:44 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Columbia Viva-Tonal model 710 steve_nor...@msn.com Send me a photo of the reproducer or let me know what is says on the back, if it is the one I think it is they are all brass and easy to rebuild. I will take flak for this, but when I tested an Orthophonic No. 5 Victor and a Viva-Tonal reproducer on my Victor VI the Viva-Tonal sounded better. This was a fair comparison of both reproducers with the same horn. Naturally the Orthophonic No. 5 Victor sounded much better on my VV 8-12 than it does on my Victor VI. Personally I think the Viva-Tonal is a better reproducer for two reasons. It is much, much, much easier to rebuild and it does not have the unwanted sound coming from the other side not connected to the horn. Mr. Orthophonic tells me it is incorrect to test the Orthophonic No. 5 Victor independently from the machine due to the matched impedance and I agree. Ever wonder why Victor Orthophonic machines tell you to close the lid or put the cap with the felt on the suitcase models? To deaden the unwanted sound which the Viva-Tonal does not have to the same degree. I do have a world famous friend who feels the Viva-Tonals sound better than the Victor Orthophonic machines, he is in a position to sound test, I am not, as he owns both with practically all model of both. I can only sound test on Victor VI. Interestingly the Viva-Tonal uses the same size ball bearings as the first style Orthophonic No. 5 Victor. As long as I am taking flak I also enjoy paying my monthly bills. Sound is objective, I spoke with another famous man who restores early sound systems like the Edison C-2 and he as the equipment to measure sound. Some people can only hear a limited range of sound, others had very differing opinions of the same sound. Some people like Larry can pick out all the instruments in an orchestra record while others can only differentiate volume. Steve _ From: phono-l@oldcrank.org Subject: [Phono-L] Columbia Viva-Tonal model 710 To: phono-l@oldcrank.org Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2015 02:08:49 + I've wanted to have a nice Columbia Viva-Tonal phonograph for a long time, and now I have the opportunity to buy a model 710. Not being famailiar with these -- I've never actually seen one in person -- I'm wondering what kind of cosmetic work this will need. It seems the green trim paint is faded in some places, and largely gone in others (note front center above the speaker grille in the second photo). The nickel plating on the tone arm and reproducer appears to be heavily oxidized, as well. I don't know what other cosmetic or mechanical issues it may have; are there common known issues with this model, and with Viva-Tonals in general? Do the horns usually need to be re-sealed? Are the reproducers pot metal? I've read these don't have a stop; does that mean it doesn't have an automatic stop, or (forgive me) any stop at all? How do these machines sound, in general? (Personally, I don't think Grafonolas sound very good.) Finally, the seller says he won't take any less than $225 for it; I know value is in the eye of the beholder, but does this seem reasonable to you, or is it way out of line? http://mandrillapp.com/track/open.php?u=30365713id=3d69c398e1ac4a61aed3533 77da1c257 http://mandrillapp.com/track/open.php?u=30365713id=809cc1fb0a934d54947a061 a56aa37c7 http://mandrillapp.com/track/open.php?u=30365713id=00364dd85f9c4ceb9c28fa5 0227613c7
Re: [Phono-L] Columbia Viva-Tonal model 710
Dear Mr. Bogantz: I have both 800 810 Viva-tonals unfortunately the cabinet of the latter was stripped, effacing the decoration the original knobs were replaced.I'd like to have an artist friend recreate the decorations.Could you possibly send me detailed close up photos of the cabinet decoration knobs?There are faint remnants of green paint along the lower grooved part of the cabinet. Many thanks! Jim Cartwright Immortal Performances, Inc. _ From: Antique Phonograph List [mailto:phono-l@oldcrank.org] Sent: Friday, August 07, 2015 10:22 PM To: Antique Phonograph List Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Columbia Viva-Tonal model 710 I have the Columbia 613 and 810, both VivaTonal models. The 600 series has a simple curved wooden horn, nearly identical to those used in the small Victor ortho machines such as the 4-3. And the small Columbias sound very similar to the small Victors which is very good for their size. The 800 series Columbias have very large horns and were supposed to compete with the large horn Victors such as the Credenza. But the large Columbia horn is NOT exponential in taper and does not sound as good as the big Victors. The big Columbia sound is a bit muddier with noticeably less treble. I don't know about the 700 series Columbias, but I would assume that the horns in them are similar to the mid-size Victors. But if I were to guess, I'd assume that the mid-size Columbias probably are not quite as good sounding as the mid-size Victors. The big Columbia horn is made of a number of flat and curved pieces of wood that must be sealed at their joints. And these seals will likely need to be renewed during your restoration. The Columbia motors are quiet and smooth. They all incorporate an automatic shutoff that must be set for the record ending diameter in a way similar to the early Victor shutoff mechanisms. All the Columbia VivaTonals use the #15 reproducer which has the distinct advantage that it has NO potmetal parts. It is easily rebuildable, but it uses an unusual molded rubber coupling that mounts the body to the metal sleeve that is used to connect with the tonearm. These original rubber bits will almost certainly be turned to stone, but so far as I know there are no reproductions of them available. Most people who own these have finagled a custom replacement frammis of some type to replace the rubber piece. People's opinions on the sound of the reproducers vary. But the Columbia #15 is heavier than the Victor #5 ortho and has a stiffer (lower) compliance with a higher mechanical resonance. This results in less bass and a response that is tilted toward a higher midrangey sound. I have made a set of adapters that allows me to mount either reproducer on both Columbia VivaTonal and Victor ortho machines. My opinion is that the Columbia #15 is not as good sounding as the Victor #5 when used on any of the phonographs. The Columbia reproducer has less bass response and higher distortion while also producing more record wear due to the higher tracking force due to its higher weight and its lower compliance. Still, the Columbia VivaTonal machines are nice enough sounding and make a good comparison of the technologies of the two companies' products of the same vintage. Greg Bogantz - Original Message - From: Antique mailto:phono-l@oldcrank.org Phonograph List To: phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Friday, August 07, 2015 10:01 PM Subject: [Phono-L] Columbia Viva-Tonal model 710 I've wanted to have a nice Columbia Viva-Tonal phonograph for a long time, and now I have the opportunity to buy a model 710. Not being famailiar with these -- I've never actually seen one in person -- I'm wondering what kind of cosmetic work this will need. It seems the green trim paint is faded in some places, and largely gone in others (note front center above the speaker grille in the second photo). The nickel plating on the tone arm and reproducer appears to be heavily oxidized, as well. I don't know what other cosmetic or mechanical issues it may have; are there common known issues with this model, and with Viva-Tonals in general? Do the horns usually need to be re-sealed? Are the reproducers pot metal? I've read these don't have a stop; does that mean it doesn't have an automatic stop, or (forgive me) any stop at all? How do these machines sound, in general? (Personally, I don't think Grafonolas sound very good.) Finally, the seller says he won't take any less than $225 for it; I know value is in the eye of the beholder, but does this seem reasonable to you, or is it way out of line? http://mandrillapp.com/track/open.php?u=30365713id=4d99648d7f684bf49ce139f 1a0d9b63b _ http://mandrillapp.com/track/click/30365713/www.avast.com?p=eyJzIjoiZ0psQ3R 1MXo5SjF4VWFBWmVTOGZ1cldhdXlnIiwidiI6MSwicCI6IntcInVcIjozMDM2NTcxMyxcInZcIjo xLFwidXJsXCI6XCJodHRwczpcXFwvXFxcL3d3dy5hdmFzdC5jb21cXFwvYW50aXZpcnVzXCIsXCJ
Re: [Phono-L] Columbia Viva-Tonal model 710
Hello John, Thanks. The Victor Orthophonic reproducer was designed to be matched with its horn, the reason Victor made the tone arm larger was to prevent disappointment from people putting the new reproducer on older machines and soiling its reputation. At first I thought Victor was just being business smart, which they were, but that was not the case. When I put the No. 5 Orthophonic Victor reproducer on my Victor VI the sound was tremendously degraded when compared to the same reproducer on my VV 8-12. Personally I still believe the No. 5 was not optimally designed because of the unwanted sound generated, but when paired with the horn they have a much wider band of sound and greater volume. On my 8-12 I use gold plated medium tone needles, some of the larger machines require soft tone needles according to Mr. Orthophonic. Did the complicated spider diaphragm actually make a difference? The later Orthophonic No 5 reproducer that does not have the spider does not sound different to me on my VV 8-12. Some diaphragms had the spider removed, some never had it and the needle bar is attached via a screw. I also believe that until the Viva-Tonal that Columbia disc machines were clearly inferior to Victor. The Viva-Tonals were much closer to being on par with Victor than the earlier machines. To some people they sounded better as sound is subjective. Victor was clearly the most successful company with both superior products and advertising. Edison was clearly the most loyal to its customers making obsolete reproducers so people could play earlier records. Edison was still making and selling CHK reproducers and 24 minute recorders in 1926 and on. He still made, in tiny quantities, and repaired Diamond A reproducers in 1924 and beyond. Diamond A reproducers made after the fire use nickel plated Diamond B weights that were then copper plated and a different oxidation material was used. With Edison all of the advances were made so they could be used on earlier machines. So that Victor could sell the new records to people who could not afford new machines the No. 4 reproducer was made available. If you have the good fortune to have a No 4 with its original box you can read what it says, if not: The Victrola No 4 Sound Box was designed and perfected for use with old style Victrolas manufactured by the Victor Company prior to August, 1925. This sound box will immeasurably improve the tonal quality of old Victrolas; but it should not be confused with the New Orthophonic Victrola and the principle of matched impedance (controlled by the Victor Company) which has so completely revolutionized the art of reproducing sound. This sound box on your old-style Victrola will greatly increase your enjoyment of the new Orthophonic Record. But be sure to hear the new Orthophonic Record played on the new Orthophonic Victrola, which represents the ultimate in musical reproduction. OLD STYLE AMPLIFYING HORN used in the cabinet type Victrola prior to August, 1925. ORTHOPHONIC TONE CHAMBER embodying the new discovery - matched impedance which permits the smooth uninterrupted flow of sound. This principle is employed exclusively in the new Orthophonic Victrola. Steve From: phono-l@oldcrank.org Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Columbia Viva-Tonal model 710 To: phono-l@oldcrank.org Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2015 06:16:22 + Steve, I agree that the VivaTonals can sound better than the Orthophonics, and so can the Brunswick Panatropes.John Robles From: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org To: phono-l@oldcrank.org phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Friday, August 7, 2015 7:44 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Columbia Viva-Tonal model 710 steve_nor...@msn.com Send me a photo of the reproducer or let me know what is says on the back, if it is the one I think it is they are all brass and easy to rebuild. I will take flak for this, but when I tested an Orthophonic No. 5 Victor and a Viva-Tonal reproducer on my Victor VI the Viva-Tonal sounded better. This was a fair comparison of both reproducers with the same horn. Naturally the Orthophonic No. 5 Victor sounded much better on my VV 8-12 than it does on my Victor VI. Personally I think the Viva-Tonal is a better reproducer for two reasons. It is much, much, much easier to rebuild and it does not have the unwanted sound coming from the other side not connected to the horn. Mr. Orthophonic tells me it is incorrect to test the Orthophonic No. 5 Victor independently from the machine due to the matched impedance and I agree. Ever wonder why Victor Orthophonic machines tell you to close the lid or put the cap with the felt on the suitcase models? To deaden the unwanted sound which the Viva-Tonal does not have to the same degree. I do have a world famous friend who feels the Viva-Tonals sound better than the Victor Orthophonic machines, he is in a position to sound test, I am not, as he owns both with practically all
Re: [Phono-L] Columbia Viva-Tonal model 710
Hello Jim, Chuck Azzalina. A man contacted me about a new diamond for his C-2 so I had him send me the reproducer. I found that the regular DD diamond assembly would not fit so I had Bruce diamond make a diamond assembly that would fit and Chuck is currently testing them out for me. If he is happy he will do the install. While communicating with Chuck I called and discussed his repair of early sound systems, he is like me in that he does outstanding work. This was evident when I took the cover off the C-2 reproducer and was able to see his work. That was what made me contact him. Steve From: phono-l@oldcrank.org Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Columbia Viva-Tonal model 710 To: phono-l@oldcrank.org Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2015 16:06:39 + Dear Steve: Who restores Edison C-s radio-phonograph combinations?I’ve been trying to get mine restored for close to twenty years. Originally had three, had three chassis sent for restoration only two chassis came back person to whom I’d sent these did not respond or cash $ 25 cheque I’d sent to cover shipping of third chassis.Radios work OK, but phono is very weak even ‘tho I’ve had pickups rebuilt I’m told former “repairs” used incorrect interstage audio transformers.Would love to get these units functioning properly. What type of transformer should replace interstage audio transformers? I can hook the pickup up to an Edison radio which is all original sound is superb so I know the combination units should be equally magnificent when playing diamond discs. Jim Cartwright Immortal Performances, Inc. From: Antique Phonograph List [mailto:phono-l@oldcrank.org] Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2015 1:09 AM To: Antique Phonograph List Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Columbia Viva-Tonal model 710 Steve, I agree that the VivaTonals can sound better than the Orthophonics, and so can the Brunswick Panatropes. John Robles From: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org To: phono-l@oldcrank.org phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Friday, August 7, 2015 7:44 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Columbia Viva-Tonal model 710 steve_nor...@msn.com Send me a photo of the reproducer or let me know what is says on the back, if it is the one I think it is they are all brass and easy to rebuild. I will take flak for this, but when I tested an Orthophonic No. 5 Victor and a Viva-Tonal reproducer on my Victor VI the Viva-Tonal sounded better. This was a fair comparison of both reproducers with the same horn. Naturally the Orthophonic No. 5 Victor sounded much better on my VV 8-12 than it does on my Victor VI. Personally I think the Viva-Tonal is a better reproducer for two reasons. It is much, much, much easier to rebuild and it does not have the unwanted sound coming from the other side not connected to the horn. Mr. Orthophonic tells me it is incorrect to test the Orthophonic No. 5 Victor independently from the machine due to the matched impedance and I agree. Ever wonder why Victor Orthophonic machines tell you to close the lid or put the cap with the felt on the suitcase models? To deaden the unwanted sound which the Viva-Tonal does not have to the same degree. I do have a world famous friend who feels the Viva-Tonals sound better than the Victor Orthophonic machines, he is in a position to sound test, I am not, as he owns both with practically all model of both. I can only sound test on Victor VI. Interestingly the Viva-Tonal uses the same size ball bearings as the first style Orthophonic No. 5 Victor. As long as I am taking flak I also enjoy paying my monthly bills. Sound is objective, I spoke with another famous man who restores early sound systems like the Edison C-2 and he as the equipment to measure sound. Some people can only hear a limited range of sound, others had very differing opinions of the same sound. Some people like Larry can pick out all the instruments in an orchestra record while others can only differentiate volume. Steve From: phono-l@oldcrank.org Subject: [Phono-L] Columbia Viva-Tonal model 710 To: phono-l@oldcrank.org Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2015 02:08:49 + I've wanted to have a nice Columbia Viva-Tonal phonograph for a long time, and now I have the opportunity to buy a model 710. Not being famailiar with these -- I've never actually seen one in person -- I'm wondering what kind of cosmetic work this will need. It seems the green trim paint is faded in some places, and largely gone in others (note front center above the speaker grille in the second photo). The nickel plating on the tone arm and reproducer appears to be heavily oxidized, as well. I don't know what other cosmetic or mechanical issues it may have; are there common known issues with this model, and with Viva-Tonals in general? Do the horns usually need to be re-sealed? Are the reproducers pot metal? I've read these don't have a stop; does that mean it doesn't have an automatic
Re: [Phono-L] Columbia Viva-Tonal model 710
Hello Jim, I replied both on and off list, let me know if you get the off list reply. Steve From: phono-l@oldcrank.org Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Columbia Viva-Tonal model 710 To: phono-l@oldcrank.org Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2015 16:06:39 + Dear Steve: Who restores Edison C-s radio-phonograph combinations?I’ve been trying to get mine restored for close to twenty years. Originally had three, had three chassis sent for restoration only two chassis came back person to whom I’d sent these did not respond or cash $ 25 cheque I’d sent to cover shipping of third chassis.Radios work OK, but phono is very weak even ‘tho I’ve had pickups rebuilt I’m told former “repairs” used incorrect interstage audio transformers.Would love to get these units functioning properly. What type of transformer should replace interstage audio transformers? I can hook the pickup up to an Edison radio which is all original sound is superb so I know the combination units should be equally magnificent when playing diamond discs. Jim Cartwright Immortal Performances, Inc. From: Antique Phonograph List [mailto:phono-l@oldcrank.org] Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2015 1:09 AM To: Antique Phonograph List Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Columbia Viva-Tonal model 710 Steve, I agree that the VivaTonals can sound better than the Orthophonics, and so can the Brunswick Panatropes. John Robles From: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org To: phono-l@oldcrank.org phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Friday, August 7, 2015 7:44 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Columbia Viva-Tonal model 710 steve_nor...@msn.com Send me a photo of the reproducer or let me know what is says on the back, if it is the one I think it is they are all brass and easy to rebuild. I will take flak for this, but when I tested an Orthophonic No. 5 Victor and a Viva-Tonal reproducer on my Victor VI the Viva-Tonal sounded better. This was a fair comparison of both reproducers with the same horn. Naturally the Orthophonic No. 5 Victor sounded much better on my VV 8-12 than it does on my Victor VI. Personally I think the Viva-Tonal is a better reproducer for two reasons. It is much, much, much easier to rebuild and it does not have the unwanted sound coming from the other side not connected to the horn. Mr. Orthophonic tells me it is incorrect to test the Orthophonic No. 5 Victor independently from the machine due to the matched impedance and I agree. Ever wonder why Victor Orthophonic machines tell you to close the lid or put the cap with the felt on the suitcase models? To deaden the unwanted sound which the Viva-Tonal does not have to the same degree. I do have a world famous friend who feels the Viva-Tonals sound better than the Victor Orthophonic machines, he is in a position to sound test, I am not, as he owns both with practically all model of both. I can only sound test on Victor VI. Interestingly the Viva-Tonal uses the same size ball bearings as the first style Orthophonic No. 5 Victor. As long as I am taking flak I also enjoy paying my monthly bills. Sound is objective, I spoke with another famous man who restores early sound systems like the Edison C-2 and he as the equipment to measure sound. Some people can only hear a limited range of sound, others had very differing opinions of the same sound. Some people like Larry can pick out all the instruments in an orchestra record while others can only differentiate volume. Steve From: phono-l@oldcrank.org Subject: [Phono-L] Columbia Viva-Tonal model 710 To: phono-l@oldcrank.org Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2015 02:08:49 + I've wanted to have a nice Columbia Viva-Tonal phonograph for a long time, and now I have the opportunity to buy a model 710. Not being famailiar with these -- I've never actually seen one in person -- I'm wondering what kind of cosmetic work this will need. It seems the green trim paint is faded in some places, and largely gone in others (note front center above the speaker grille in the second photo). The nickel plating on the tone arm and reproducer appears to be heavily oxidized, as well. I don't know what other cosmetic or mechanical issues it may have; are there common known issues with this model, and with Viva-Tonals in general? Do the horns usually need to be re-sealed? Are the reproducers pot metal? I've read these don't have a stop; does that mean it doesn't have an automatic stop, or (forgive me) any stop at all? How do these machines sound, in general? (Personally, I don't think Grafonolas sound very good.) Finally, the seller says he won't take any less than $225 for it; I know value is in the eye of the beholder, but does this seem reasonable to you, or is it way out of line?
Re: [Phono-L] Columbia Viva-Tonal model 710
steve_nor...@msn.com Send me a photo of the reproducer or let me know what is says on the back, if it is the one I think it is they are all brass and easy to rebuild. I will take flak for this, but when I tested an Orthophonic No. 5 Victor and a Viva-Tonal reproducer on my Victor VI the Viva-Tonal sounded better. This was a fair comparison of both reproducers with the same horn. Naturally the Orthophonic No. 5 Victor sounded much better on my VV 8-12 than it does on my Victor VI. Personally I think the Viva-Tonal is a better reproducer for two reasons. It is much, much, much easier to rebuild and it does not have the unwanted sound coming from the other side not connected to the horn. Mr. Orthophonic tells me it is incorrect to test the Orthophonic No. 5 Victor independently from the machine due to the matched impedance and I agree. Ever wonder why Victor Orthophonic machines tell you to close the lid or put the cap with the felt on the suitcase models? To deaden the unwanted sound which the Viva-Tonal does not have to the same degree. I do have a world famous friend who feels the Viva-Tonals sound better than the Victor Orthophonic machines, he is in a position to sound test, I am not, as he owns both with practically all model of both. I can only sound test on Victor VI. Interestingly the Viva-Tonal uses the same size ball bearings as the first style Orthophonic No. 5 Victor. As long as I am taking flak I also enjoy paying my monthly bills. Sound is objective, I spoke with another famous man who restores early sound systems like the Edison C-2 and he as the equipment to measure sound. Some people can only hear a limited range of sound, others had very differing opinions of the same sound. Some people like Larry can pick out all the instruments in an orchestra record while others can only differentiate volume. Steve From: phono-l@oldcrank.org Subject: [Phono-L] Columbia Viva-Tonal model 710 To: phono-l@oldcrank.org Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2015 02:08:49 + I've wanted to have a nice Columbia Viva-Tonal phonograph for a long time, and now I have the opportunity to buy a model 710. Not being famailiar with these -- I've never actually seen one in person -- I'm wondering what kind of cosmetic work this will need. It seems the green trim paint is faded in some places, and largely gone in others (note front center above the speaker grille in the second photo). The nickel plating on the tone arm and reproducer appears to be heavily oxidized, as well. I don't know what other cosmetic or mechanical issues it may have; are there common known issues with this model, and with Viva-Tonals in general? Do the horns usually need to be re-sealed? Are the reproducers pot metal? I've read these don't have a stop; does that mean it doesn't have an automatic stop, or (forgive me) any stop at all? How do these machines sound, in general? (Personally, I don't think Grafonolas sound very good.) Finally, the seller says he won't take any less than $225 for it; I know value is in the eye of the beholder, but does this seem reasonable to you, or is it way out of line?
Re: [Phono-L] Columbia Viva-Tonal model 710
YMMV of course, but I had a chance at this myself and passed due to too many issues that I could see as well as envision. I love the Viva-Tonals (I collect sand research Columbia exclusively) and could have easily dealt with any issues involved getting the phonograph operational, but I just did not want to take on some of the cabinet issues I saw (some of which you have noted). The seller when I asked about them was a bit too stubborn and vague, equally about the price. She would not share any better photos with me of the case (with better detail of the condition) and especially the horn behind the screen. Instead I got pics of irrelevant Victor accessories. I decided to give it a pass and wait for either a better conditioned mid sized 700 series (a later model with the autobrake) or a larger 800¹s. Just my 2 cents. Again YMMV A in MA From: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Reply-To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Date: Friday, August 7, 2015 at 10:08 PM To: phono-l@oldcrank.org phono-l@oldcrank.org Subject: [Phono-L] Columbia Viva-Tonal model 710 I've wanted to have a nice Columbia Viva-Tonal phonograph for a long time, and now I have the opportunity to buy a model 710. Not being famailiar with these -- I've never actually seen one in person -- I'm wondering what kind of cosmetic work this will need. It seems the green trim paint is faded in some places, and largely gone in others (note front center above the speaker grille in the second photo). The nickel plating on the tone arm and reproducer appears to be heavily oxidized, as well. I don't know what other cosmetic or mechanical issues it may have; are there common known issues with this model, and with Viva-Tonals in general? Do the horns usually need to be re-sealed? Are the reproducers pot metal? I've read these don't have a stop; does that mean it doesn't have an automatic stop, or (forgive me) any stop at all? How do these machines sound, in general? (Personally, I don't think Grafonolas sound very good.) Finally, the seller says he won't take any less than $225 for it; I know value is in the eye of the beholder, but does this seem reasonable to you, or is it way out of line?
Re: [Phono-L] Columbia Viva-Tonal model 710
You don't see too many of the Columbia Viva-tonals and I think a lot of what you are seeing (oxidation for example) is an artifact of the photography. The pics are probably a bit overexposed. The sound nice especially in the mid range. Bass is not as good as the Orthophonics. I have one of the larger consoles and I don't think the horn needs re-sealing. The reproducer is brass and what I found to make the biggest improvement in its sound was to lubricate the needle bar bearings. Ron From: Antique Phonograph List [mailto:phono-l@oldcrank.org] Sent: Friday, August 07, 2015 10:02 PM To: phono-l@oldcrank.org Subject: [Phono-L] Columbia Viva-Tonal model 710 I've wanted to have a nice Columbia Viva-Tonal phonograph for a long time, and now I have the opportunity to buy a model 710. Not being famailiar with these -- I've never actually seen one in person -- I'm wondering what kind of cosmetic work this will need. It seems the green trim paint is faded in some places, and largely gone in others (note front center above the speaker grille in the second photo). The nickel plating on the tone arm and reproducer appears to be heavily oxidized, as well. I don't know what other cosmetic or mechanical issues it may have; are there common known issues with this model, and with Viva-Tonals in general? Do the horns usually need to be re-sealed? Are the reproducers pot metal? I've read these don't have a stop; does that mean it doesn't have an automatic stop, or (forgive me) any stop at all? How do these machines sound, in general? (Personally, I don't think Grafonolas sound very good.) Finally, the seller says he won't take any less than $225 for it; I know value is in the eye of the beholder, but does this seem reasonable to you, or is it way out of line? Image removed by sender.
Re: [Phono-L] Columbia Viva-Tonal model 710
I have the Columbia 613 and 810, both VivaTonal models. The 600 series has a simple curved wooden horn, nearly identical to those used in the small Victor ortho machines such as the 4-3. And the small Columbias sound very similar to the small Victors which is very good for their size. The 800 series Columbias have very large horns and were supposed to compete with the large horn Victors such as the Credenza. But the large Columbia horn is NOT exponential in taper and does not sound as good as the big Victors. The big Columbia sound is a bit muddier with noticeably less treble. I don't know about the 700 series Columbias, but I would assume that the horns in them are similar to the mid-size Victors. But if I were to guess, I'd assume that the mid-size Columbias probably are not quite as good sounding as the mid-size Victors. The big Columbia horn is made of a number of flat and curved pieces of wood that must be sealed at their joints. And these seals will likely need to be renewed during your restoration. The Columbia motors are quiet and smooth. They all incorporate an automatic shutoff that must be set for the record ending diameter in a way similar to the early Victor shutoff mechanisms. All the Columbia VivaTonals use the #15 reproducer which has the distinct advantage that it has NO potmetal parts. It is easily rebuildable, but it uses an unusual molded rubber coupling that mounts the body to the metal sleeve that is used to connect with the tonearm. These original rubber bits will almost certainly be turned to stone, but so far as I know there are no reproductions of them available. Most people who own these have finagled a custom replacement frammis of some type to replace the rubber piece. People's opinions on the sound of the reproducers vary. But the Columbia #15 is heavier than the Victor #5 ortho and has a stiffer (lower) compliance with a higher mechanical resonance. This results in less bass and a response that is tilted toward a higher midrangey sound. I have made a set of adapters that allows me to mount either reproducer on both Columbia VivaTonal and Victor ortho machines. My opinion is that the Columbia #15 is not as good sounding as the Victor #5 when used on any of the phonographs. The Columbia reproducer has less bass response and higher distortion while also producing more record wear due to the higher tracking force due to its higher weight and its lower compliance. Still, the Columbia VivaTonal machines are nice enough sounding and make a good comparison of the technologies of the two companies' products of the same vintage. Greg Bogantz - Original Message - From: Antique Phonograph List To: phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Friday, August 07, 2015 10:01 PM Subject: [Phono-L] Columbia Viva-Tonal model 710 I've wanted to have a nice Columbia Viva-Tonal phonograph for a long time, and now I have the opportunity to buy a model 710. Not being famailiar with these -- I've never actually seen one in person -- I'm wondering what kind of cosmetic work this will need. It seems the green trim paint is faded in some places, and largely gone in others (note front center above the speaker grille in the second photo). The nickel plating on the tone arm and reproducer appears to be heavily oxidized, as well. I don't know what other cosmetic or mechanical issues it may have; are there common known issues with this model, and with Viva-Tonals in general? Do the horns usually need to be re-sealed? Are the reproducers pot metal? I've read these don't have a stop; does that mean it doesn't have an automatic stop, or (forgive me) any stop at all? How do these machines sound, in general? (Personally, I don't think Grafonolas sound very good.) Finally, the seller says he won't take any less than $225 for it; I know value is in the eye of the beholder, but does this seem reasonable to you, or is it way out of line? --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Re: [Phono-L] Columbia Viva-Tonal model 710
$225 seems fine for this one. I paid $125 for a 700 in nice shape, over 30 years ago. Their sound can be most excellent. - Original Message - From: Antique Phonograph List To: phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Friday, August 07, 2015 10:01 PM Subject: [Phono-L] Columbia Viva-Tonal model 710 I've wanted to have a nice Columbia Viva-Tonal phonograph for a long time, and now I have the opportunity to buy a model 710. Not being famailiar with these -- I've never actually seen one in person -- I'm wondering what kind of cosmetic work this will need. It seems the green trim paint is faded in some places, and largely gone in others (note front center above the speaker grille in the second photo). The nickel plating on the tone arm and reproducer appears to be heavily oxidized, as well. I don't know what other cosmetic or mechanical issues it may have; are there common known issues with this model, and with Viva-Tonals in general? Do the horns usually need to be re-sealed? Are the reproducers pot metal? I've read these don't have a stop; does that mean it doesn't have an automatic stop, or (forgive me) any stop at all? How do these machines sound, in general? (Personally, I don't think Grafonolas sound very good.) Finally, the seller says he won't take any less than $225 for it; I know value is in the eye of the beholder, but does this seem reasonable to you, or is it way out of line? ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
Re: [Phono-L] Columbia Viva-Tonal model 710
I am always happy to be corrected by an expert I respect. I really enjoyed reading this, thanks Greg. Steve From: phono-l@oldcrank.org Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Columbia Viva-Tonal model 710 To: phono-l@oldcrank.org Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2015 03:29:21 + I have the Columbia 613 and 810, both VivaTonal models. The 600 series has a simple curved wooden horn, nearly identical to those used in the small Victor ortho machines such as the 4-3. And the small Columbias sound very similar to the small Victors which is very good for their size. The 800 series Columbias have very large horns and were supposed to compete with the large horn Victors such as the Credenza. But the large Columbia horn is NOT exponential in taper and does not sound as good as the big Victors. The big Columbia sound is a bit muddier with noticeably less treble. I don't know about the 700 series Columbias, but I would assume that the horns in them are similar to the mid-size Victors. But if I were to guess, I'd assume that the mid-size Columbias probably are not quite as good sounding as the mid-size Victors. The big Columbia horn is made of a number of flat and curved pieces of wood that must be sealed at their joints. And these seals will likely need to be renewed during your restoration. The Columbia motors are quiet and smooth. They all incorporate an automatic shutoff that must be set for the record ending diameter in a way similar to the early Victor shutoff mechanisms. All the Columbia VivaTonals use the #15 reproducer which has the distinct advantage that it has NO potmetal parts. It is easily rebuildable, but it uses an unusual molded rubber coupling that mounts the body to the metal sleeve that is used to connect with the tonearm. These original rubber bits will almost certainly be turned to stone, but so far as I know there are no reproductions of them available. Most people who own these have finagled a custom replacement frammis of some type to replace the rubber piece. People's opinions on the sound of the reproducers vary. But the Columbia #15 is heavier than the Victor #5 ortho and has a stiffer (lower) compliance with a higher mechanical resonance. This results in less bass and a response that is tilted toward a higher midrangey sound. I have made a set of adapters that allows me to mount either reproducer on both Columbia VivaTonal and Victor ortho machines. My opinion is that the Columbia #15 is not as good sounding as the Victor #5 when used on any of the phonographs. The Columbia reproducer has less bass response and higher distortion while also producing more record wear due to the higher tracking force due to its higher weight and its lower compliance. Still, the Columbia VivaTonal machines are nice enough sounding and make a good comparison of the technologies of the two companies' products of the same vintage. Greg Bogantz - Original Message - From: Antique Phonograph List To: phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Friday, August 07, 2015 10:01 PM Subject: [Phono-L] Columbia Viva-Tonal model 710 I've wanted to have a nice Columbia Viva-Tonal phonograph for a long time, and now I have the opportunity to buy a model 710. Not being famailiar with these -- I've never actually seen one in person -- I'm wondering what kind of cosmetic work this will need. It seems the green trim paint is faded in some places, and largely gone in others (note front center above the speaker grille in the second photo). The nickel plating on the tone arm and reproducer appears to be heavily oxidized, as well. I don't know what other cosmetic or mechanical issues it may have; are there common known issues with this model, and with Viva-Tonals in general? Do the horns usually need to be re-sealed? Are the reproducers pot metal? I've read these don't have a stop; does that mean it doesn't have an automatic stop, or (forgive me) any stop at all? How do these machines sound, in general? (Personally, I don't think Grafonolas sound very good.) Finally, the seller says he won't take any less than $225 for it; I know value is in the eye of the beholder, but does this seem reasonable to you, or is it way out of line? This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com
