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[Amaury Hernández Águila]

Re: Mac OS

[Amaury Hernández Águila]

Hmm... running PicoLisp in Docker containers sounds good. Thanks a lot
Michel!

2018-04-09 18:18 GMT-07:00 Michel Pelletier <pelletier.mic...@gmail.com>:

> I stand corrected, I was in the wrong terminal (on my mac) when I tried it.
>
> But, you can still run picolisp in a docker container, which ends up being
> similar to running it on a vm but a little easier to bootstrap.
>
> -Michel
>
> On Mon, Apr 9, 2018 at 5:32 PM, Amaury Hernández Águila <amhe...@gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
>> So you can compile the 64 bit version of PicoLisp on mac? I remember this
>> wasn't possible.
>>
>> I have PicoLisp installed, but it's the 32 bit version.
>>
>> 2018-04-09 17:23 GMT-07:00 Michel Pelletier <pelletier.mic...@gmail.com>:
>>
>>> PicoLisp works fine on OS X (on x86-64), you just have to build it from
>>> source using the instructions in the INSTALL file, I just verified it works
>>> well.
>>>
>>>  Another option would be to use docker for mac and run the debian
>>> package in a container, but that would be slower than a native install.
>>>
>>> -Michel
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 9, 2018 at 5:01 PM, Amaury Hernández Águila <
>>> amhe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello!
>>>>
>>>> Is it going to be possible anytime soon to have 64-bit PicoLisp on Mac
>>>> OS X? I'm deciding on what programming language to use for a project and I
>>>> could consider PicoLisp.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>

Re: Mac OS

[Amaury Hernández Águila]

So you can compile the 64 bit version of PicoLisp on mac? I remember this
wasn't possible.

I have PicoLisp installed, but it's the 32 bit version.

2018-04-09 17:23 GMT-07:00 Michel Pelletier <pelletier.mic...@gmail.com>:

> PicoLisp works fine on OS X (on x86-64), you just have to build it from
> source using the instructions in the INSTALL file, I just verified it works
> well.
>
>  Another option would be to use docker for mac and run the debian package
> in a container, but that would be slower than a native install.
>
> -Michel
>
> On Mon, Apr 9, 2018 at 5:01 PM, Amaury Hernández Águila <amhe...@gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
>> Hello!
>>
>> Is it going to be possible anytime soon to have 64-bit PicoLisp on Mac OS
>> X? I'm deciding on what programming language to use for a project and I
>> could consider PicoLisp.
>>
>
>

Mac OS

[Amaury Hernández Águila]

Hello!

Is it going to be possible anytime soon to have 64-bit PicoLisp on Mac OS
X? I'm deciding on what programming language to use for a project and I
could consider PicoLisp.

Re: Announce: PilBox - Building Mobile Apps in PicoLisp

[Amaury Hernández Águila]

Will it be possible to have iOS apps in the future too?

On Sun, Mar 12, 2017 at 10:42 AM Jakob Eriksson 
wrote:

> Fantastic!
>
> On 2017-03-12 17:10, Alexander Burger wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > it is now possible to build Android Apps completely in PicoLisp!
> >
> >
> > I have prepared an environment which lets you run normal PicoLisp (Web-)
> > applications on Android devices, without the need to write Java code.
> I'm using
> > it myself in a project for distributed databases currently.
> >
> > It requires an Android Studio SDK to build, but the resulting APKs
> ("Android
> > Packages") run on any Arm64 device. The provided code itself is
> application
> > independent. A simple demo and a template skeleton for your own
> experiments is
> > included.
> >
> >
> > I will not write a full-fledged Wiki article yet, and better wait for
> some
> > feedback.
> >
> > An Adroid SDK project is a monster. Here, on my installation, the
> "PilBox/"
> > folder contains more than ten thousand files!
> >
> > I don't know which files exactly I have to export, and what is needed on
> your
> > side to import it into your SDK. I suspect you first need to import it
> somehow
> > in the IDE before you can use the command line build tools.
> >
> > The tarball at
> >
> >https://software-lab.de/PilBox.tgz
> >
> > contains a README, trying to explain the details. If anyone dares to try
> it out,
> > please let me know if anything is missing! Together we may be able to
> describe
> > the procedures more clearly, extend the README, and perhaps provide some
> Wiki
> > article(s).
> >
> > ♪♫ Alex
> >
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Re: Machine Learning in PicoLisp

[Amaury Hernández Águila]

How bad would a pure picolisp implementation be?

El lunes, 20 de julio de 2015, Alexander Burger a...@software-lab.de
escribió:

 On Mon, Jul 20, 2015 at 09:00:14AM +0200, klaus schilling wrote:
  Artificial neural networks, support vector machines, regression, smart
  classification/regression trees, and som on require heavy number
  crunching, such as inverting large matrices. Numpy (one of the modules
  used by python's most popular machine learning module) does this by
  accessing the standard Fortran libraries (BLAS, LAPACK). Would that be
  possible from picolisp?

 Yes. Better in pil64, with 'native' calls.
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Re: Machine Learning in PicoLisp

[Amaury Hernández Águila]

I think this will be an exciting project. I'll try a pure PicoLisp
implementation and see how far I can go. Any suggestions to the name of the
library? PicoML sounds good.

Currently, I would start with a fuzzy logic toolbox, genetic programming
and an architecture to create multi-agent systems. The second step would be
to create neural networks.

2015-07-20 0:51 GMT-07:00 Alexander Burger a...@software-lab.de:

 On Mon, Jul 20, 2015 at 12:31:15AM -0700, Amaury Hernández Águila wrote:
  How bad would a pure picolisp implementation be?

 It depends how heavily the implementation depends on floating point. All
 right if it can be handled in fixpoint. If true floating point is
 needed, we must resort to 'native' calls again. On the other hand, the
 precision in a fixpoint implementation would be unlimited.
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Re: Machine Learning in PicoLisp

[Amaury Hernández Águila]

2015-07-20 2:08 GMT-07:00 Rowan Thorpe ro...@rowanthorpe.com:



 If you will develop on a public repo, please do send this thread a link to
 it
 when you feel it is at a point that others could send pull-requests to (or
 open
 issues for) to help with the progress.


Will do.

Re: Machine Learning in PicoLisp

[Amaury Hernández Águila]

I appreciate people who know the term computational intelligence. PicoCI
sounds good.

I know that BLAS and LAPACK are battle-tested, but in that case I would
just use other libraries in other programming languages (this is how I
feel). I've been doing CI in common lisp using clml, mgl-gpr, mgl, and
others, and I even have access to run my models in CUDA GPUs with my
current setup. I'd like to see PilOS running CI in a near future, and
without the dependencies on fortran's BLAS and LAPACK.

I'm still open to constructive criticism. Should we take a purist approach
or should we go the battle-tested safer route?


2015-07-20 2:32 GMT-07:00 Robert Herman rpjher...@gmail.com:

 I would welcome the results of your efforts, and contribute where I could,
 but I think it would be best to make calls to BLAS and LAPACK, since they
 are battle-tested. I am currently working my way through a book 'Handbook
 of Neuroevolution through Erlang', but I prefer Lisp. Erlang is just better
 at the fault tolerance, distributed thing.
 Lush2 Lisp was used for heavy numerics, so you may want to look there for
 some guidance, however the Sourceforge site is down at the moment.
 I am currently trying to get PilOS running on Qemu on a Win 8.1 64bit
 machine. I'd love to have that and computational intelligence libraries
 working in 64bit PicoLisp! Hey, how about PicoCi or PicoCI?

 Rob

 On Mon, Jul 20, 2015 at 5:08 PM, Rowan Thorpe ro...@rowanthorpe.com
 wrote:

 On 2015/07/20-01:01, Amaury Hernández Águila wrote:
  I think this will be an exciting project. I'll try a pure PicoLisp
  implementation and see how far I can go. Any suggestions to the name of
 the
  library? PicoML sounds good.
 
  Currently, I would start with a fuzzy logic toolbox, genetic programming
  and an architecture to create multi-agent systems. The second step
 would be
  to create neural networks.

 If you will develop on a public repo, please do send this thread a link
 to it
 when you feel it is at a point that others could send pull-requests to
 (or open
 issues for) to help with the progress.

 --
 Rowan Thorpe
 PGP fingerprint:
  BB0A 0787 C0EE BDD8 7F97  3D30 49F2 13A5 265D CCBD
 
 There is a great difference between worry and concern. A worried person
 sees
 a problem, and a concerned person solves a problem.
  - Harold Stephens
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Re: Machine Learning in PicoLisp

[Amaury Hernández Águila]

Not using BLAS or LAPACK.

2015-07-20 3:53 GMT-07:00 Manuel Cano manutalc...@gmail.com:

 What gives you more fun?

 2015-07-20 12:18 GMT+02:00 Amaury Hernández Águila amhe...@gmail.com:

 I appreciate people who know the term computational intelligence.
 PicoCI sounds good.

 I know that BLAS and LAPACK are battle-tested, but in that case I would
 just use other libraries in other programming languages (this is how I
 feel). I've been doing CI in common lisp using clml, mgl-gpr, mgl, and
 others, and I even have access to run my models in CUDA GPUs with my
 current setup. I'd like to see PilOS running CI in a near future, and
 without the dependencies on fortran's BLAS and LAPACK.

 I'm still open to constructive criticism. Should we take a purist
 approach or should we go the battle-tested safer route?


 2015-07-20 2:32 GMT-07:00 Robert Herman rpjher...@gmail.com:

 I would welcome the results of your efforts, and contribute where I
 could, but I think it would be best to make calls to BLAS and LAPACK, since
 they are battle-tested. I am currently working my way through a book
 'Handbook of Neuroevolution through Erlang', but I prefer Lisp. Erlang is
 just better at the fault tolerance, distributed thing.
 Lush2 Lisp was used for heavy numerics, so you may want to look there
 for some guidance, however the Sourceforge site is down at the moment.
 I am currently trying to get PilOS running on Qemu on a Win 8.1 64bit
 machine. I'd love to have that and computational intelligence libraries
 working in 64bit PicoLisp! Hey, how about PicoCi or PicoCI?

 Rob

 On Mon, Jul 20, 2015 at 5:08 PM, Rowan Thorpe ro...@rowanthorpe.com
 wrote:

 On 2015/07/20-01:01, Amaury Hernández Águila wrote:
  I think this will be an exciting project. I'll try a pure PicoLisp
  implementation and see how far I can go. Any suggestions to the name
 of the
  library? PicoML sounds good.
 
  Currently, I would start with a fuzzy logic toolbox, genetic
 programming
  and an architecture to create multi-agent systems. The second step
 would be
  to create neural networks.

 If you will develop on a public repo, please do send this thread a link
 to it
 when you feel it is at a point that others could send pull-requests to
 (or open
 issues for) to help with the progress.

 --
 Rowan Thorpe
 PGP fingerprint:
  BB0A 0787 C0EE BDD8 7F97  3D30 49F2 13A5 265D CCBD
 
 There is a great difference between worry and concern. A worried
 person sees
 a problem, and a concerned person solves a problem.
  - Harold Stephens
 --
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 --
 Manuel

Machine Learning in PicoLisp

[Amaury Hernández Águila]

How suitable would PicoLisp be to implement Machine Learning algorithms?
I'm working on a Fuzzy Logic Toolbox on Common Lisp, but I like the idea of
migrating to PicoLisp.

Re: Mezzano

[Amaury Hernández Águila]

Interesting, thanks. Although I highly doubt this will not become
abandonware in a few months :( not that I wish this to happen.

2015-01-27 18:26 GMT-08:00 Rick Lyman lyman.r...@gmail.com:


 http://www.osnews.com/story/28254/Mezzano_operating_system_written_in_Common_Lisp

Re: try picolisp

[Amaury Hernández Águila]

I have been working on collaborative and interactive software development
for the past year. I can build a particular solution for PicoLisp (I had
been working with Common Lisp and newLISP). The safe execution environment
is achieved by running the code in a Docker container.

I could modify a little my software to have the functionality of a Try
PicoLisp.

If you're interested, I could work on this, but it'll take me a while
because I'm working on finishing my thesis.

I could also release a collaborative and interactive platform for the
development of PicoLisp projects. At first I was  thinking on releasing it
for the Common Lisp community, but I'm always scared of presenting
something to them because they're... not as nice as you guys.
El ago 29, 2014 7:36 AM, andr...@itship.ch escribió:

  Imagine the interactive PicoLisp web tutorials that could be written if
  there would actually be a safe PicoLisp interpreter as proposed -
  thats a nice idea.
 
  Or would it suffice to define the tutorial functions and start a
  server that only allows these functions and nothing else?

 check out http://tryruby.org to see how such a thing is properly done (GUI
 wise). I find it really clever made. Would surely be a huge boost to have
 something similar for our beloved picolisp :)

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Re: try picolisp

[Amaury Hernández Águila]

How do I quote someone? (I'm not that social and I've never participated in
a mailing list before, do I just copy and paste and add the ?)

Christophe Gragnic,

If you use Docker containers, as with my proposed solution, you can do
whatever you want with the container (a mini virtual machine) and if
everything gets destroyed for example, you can just build a new container
in less than a second. The containers are isolated from the host machine,
so everything is safe.

El ago 29, 2014 9:32 AM, Christophe Gragnic christophegrag...@gmail.com
escribió:

 On Fri, Aug 29, 2014 at 10:40 AM, Alexander Burger a...@software-lab.de
wrote:
 
  The 'repl' in the PicoLisp release has about the same security as an SSH
  session (if it is used via an SSL session). With the standard role and
  permission system, you have a good control about who is allowed to use
  it.

 The idea here is not access to the REPL, but (quote from the Tcl ref):
 «safe to execute an arbitrary script from your worst enemy without
 fear of that script damaging the enclosing application or the rest of
 your computing environment.»

  Then, the most glaring security risks are the 'call' and 'pipe'
  functions, and the pipe functionalities of 'in', 'out' and 'load'. They
  allow a REPL user to directly access the interlying system. If these
  were disabled (can probably done on the Lisp level in the 'repl'

 How would you disable them? Would this be ok?
 (de annihilate @ (mapcar '((sym) (set sym NIL)) (rest)))
 Then call it this way (I think that I understand now why low level
functions
 should evaluate their args):
 (annihilate 'call 'pipe ...)

  function itself), attackers cannot call external commands or processes
  any more (can they?).

 This is the delicate/time consuming part: testing, trying to crack a
 «safe» interp.

  But then an attacker could still read many files. So perhaps disable all
  I/O functions? How far it makes sense to go?

 No idea, but the Tcl guys may have think about this a lot. From the ref:

 «««
 The following commands are hidden by interp create when it creates a
 safe interpreter:
 cd encoding exec exit
 fconfigure file glob load
 open pwd socket source
 These commands can be recreated later as Tcl procedures or aliases, or
 re-exposed by interp expose.
 The following commands from Tcl's library of support procedures are
 not present in a safe interpreter:
 auto_exec_ok auto_import auto_load
 auto_load_index auto_qualify unknown
 »»»

 I also thought about resources. For showcase purposes, a computation
 running more than 5 seconds should be killed. What do you think?

 I'm also asking the question in the context of Emulisp. If ever there
 is a platform like
 http://jsbin.com/ supporting PicoLisp, what «in browser» operations will
be
 safe to allow?


 chri

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 http://delicious.com/profgraorg (liens, favoris)
 https://twitter.com/profgraorg
 http://microalg.info
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Re: try picolisp

[Amaury Hernández Águila]

Alright, let me try:

 It's just what email clients do (including gmail, be it online, android
app…).
 Note that you just quoted me at the end. Maybe you just have to
 click somewhere to avoid what is called «top posting» (posting a message
 with the answer before the email where the question is).
 Funny that you master quite complex systems with Docker and
 don't know how to quote an email!

I don't use emails that much :( but yeah, I'm ashamed for not knowing about
it.

  Christophe Gragnic,
 
  If you use Docker containers…

 Thanks for your proposal.
 I'm just a (maths teacher) and ((computer science and dev) hobbyist
 and teacher).
 I try to build things that are as simple as possible.
 Building, (and even only maintaining if already built) something like:
 - web site
 - triggering VMs or jails
 - to run code
 - that will output results to the user
 frightens me as hell.

Well, then you teach me about quoting an email and I take care about the
system :D

Re: try picolisp

[Amaury Hernández Águila]

  The safe
  execution environment is achieved by running the code in a Docker
  container.

 what do you mean by safe?  It's certainly not secure.


Okay, there's a Host machine that is running all the Docker containers
(also called Jails). When a user starts a session, a Container gets
created. This user will send all his PicoLisp code through the website to a
Container that is running a PicoLisp server. The PicoLisp server executes
the code, and the result is returned to the user.

If the user ever tries (delete-all-files) or whatever, that Container will
get affected, but not the host machine. If the user wants to continue with
his session, the Host can create another Container. A professor I know was
working on a system that automatically creates and destroys the containers
as needed. For this approach, we could have several PicoLisp servers (5,
for example) running inside a single Container. If someone runs malicious
code inside of the container, the container gets automatically destroyed
and re-created. The bad thing about this solution is that the other users
would lose their sessions.

Something that could get implemented is to save all the PicoLisp sessions
(their source code) in a Redis database, and that way the users wouldn't
lose their sessions.

It looks too complicated, but most of this has already be done in my
University. It was tested with Python, though.

Also, the system resources required for a container are minimal. Around 5
Mb of RAM per container. We could have 20 containers running 5 PicoLisp
servers, for a total of 100 users running Try PicoLisp simultaneously.

Anyway, the advantage of this approach is users would have 100% the
functionality of PicoLisp, not a watered down version, or a restricted
version.



 Using VM like Alex suggests is better.


A Container is basically a VM, but cheaper. The downsides negligible, like
the limitation of running only a single Linux kernel for all the
containers, or not being able to run other operating systems (if the host
machine is a Linux with a kernel version X.X.X, all the containers will be
Linux X.X.X).


 Cheers,

 Tomas
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Re: tshirt(s)

[Amaury Hernández Águila]

Haha, I thought this was a spam mail.

I would love to have a PicoLisp t-shirt :P


2014-08-04 6:34 GMT-07:00 Mike Pechkin mike.pech...@gmail.com:

 hi,

 Tshirt to support project.
 Cute proportional text like this:
 http://imgur.com/KVBmjN8
 http://imgur.com/P7bjZdQ

 anyone ?

Re: Differences in mapping functions

[Amaury Hernández Águila]

I agree. I'm constantly reading the reference of any lisp when dealing with
maps, and their descriptions are usually vague. When prototyping I always
ignore mapcon and mapcan because I always forget their difference (and
because of their destructive nature, which isn't considered functional).
El jul 28, 2014 1:11 PM, Thorsten Jolitz tjol...@gmail.com escribió:

 Alexander Burger a...@software-lab.de writes:

 Hi Alex,

  I am often confused between the variants of the map functions: map,
  mapc, mapcar, mapcan, mapcon, maplist.
 
  Yes, indeed. The names of these 6 functions are historic, they are in
  most Lisp variants since early on.

 [...]

  I hope this clears things up a little.

 Thanks for this nice and short explanation, I'm sure I will use this
 post as a reference in the future.

 I would even say that it would make a perfect wiki article!

 ,
 | Mapping functions in PicoLisp
 `

 or so 

 --
 cheers,
 Thorsten

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Re: Doubts about the benefits of WebSockets

[Amaury Hernández Águila]

How reliable are the statistics from w3schools? (
http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp). It is stated in this
page http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_explorer.asp that IE6 users
are about 0.1% of the total Internet users.

When I first began web development I always tried to make my websites
compatible with every browser. But now I'm getting tired of that
(particularly, tired of IE) and now I just care about the latest versions
of Chrome and FF. At least this is true for personal projects. I understand
that clients might require their products to be fully compatible with every
browser.


2014-07-15 14:41 GMT-07:00 andr...@itship.ch:

  FWIW, in my case I fall back to polling every 10s in case websockets
  are not supported. However, as soon as IE9 penetration drops to an
  insignificant level I will stop with fallbacks.
 

 Make a user agent statistic from your users, or try to obtain data about
 your target audience.
 Rumour is, like half of Asia is still running on pirated WinXP using old
 versions of IE (even IE6), so its surely good to have fallbacks around.
 Of course, this is probably insignificant, but still interesting how
 stubborn this old stuff sticks around. A point for trying to make software
 well from the start, you never know how long it will haunt you or others
 after release...

 Mobile support of websockets in the current client versions seems to be
 pretty good:  http://caniuse.com/websockets
 Question is what version the user-base actually is using...

 ---
 Just some random sources for my statements, not exactly well researched
 stuff:


 http://www.techinasia.com/windows-xp-now-dead-but-200-million-machines-in-china-still-using-it/


 http://www.troyhunt.com/2010/08/aye-pirates-be-reason-ie6-just-wont-die.html


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Re: Doubts about the benefits of WebSockets

[Amaury Hernández Águila]

How about a browser videogame? Developing videogames in PicoLisp would be
great. I think I'll start one tomorrow.
El jul 14, 2014 3:21 AM, Alexander Burger a...@software-lab.de escribió:

 On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 12:02:10PM +0200, Alexander Burger wrote:
  with a size of 449 bytes. This is less than the default TCP packet size
  of 1152 bytes, so a headerless protcoll wouldn't save anything here.

 Sorry, forget that! I think there is no default TCP packet size :)
 Anyway, we are not talking about huge amounts of data here.

 ♪♫ Alex
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Re: Doubts about the benefits of WebSockets

[Amaury Hernández Águila]

Yeah that would be nice. So, isn't that a good reason to have websockets in
PocoLisp?
El jul 14, 2014 3:49 AM, Alexander Burger a...@software-lab.de escribió:

 Hi Amaury,

 On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 03:26:15AM -0700, Amaury Hernández Águila wrote:
  How about a browser videogame? Developing videogames in PicoLisp would be
  great. I think I'll start one tomorrow.

 Really? That would be great! I suspect there are many people here
 interested to help.

 ♪♫ Alex
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