On 2/10/06, Neil Schemenauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Guido van Rossum [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
PEP 349 - str() may return unicode. Where is this?
Does that mean you didn't find and read the PEP or was it written so
badly that it answered none of your questions? The PEP is on
python.org
on fixing that?
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... literal would just add more confusion
-- bytes are not characters, but b... makes it appear as if they
are.
--Guido
On 2/11/06, Bengt Richter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 21:35:26 -0800, Guido van Rossum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
On Sat, 11 Feb 2006 05:08:09 + (UTC
ordinals generally assumed to be non-negative? The numbers used
as slice or sequence indices can be negative!
Also, I don't buy the reason for 'as'l I don't see how this word would
require the conversion to be losless.
The PEP continues to use __index__ and I'm happy with that.
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out-benefits the problems
some folks may experience due to the branch not being perfect yet.
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to help PageRank of the new page.)
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On 2/13/06, Fredrik Lundh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Guido van Rossum wrote:
(Now that I work for Google I realize more than ever before the
importance of keeping URLs stable; PageRank(tm) numbers don't get
transferred as quickly as contents. I have this worry too in the
context
On 2/13/06, Phillip J. Eby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
At 09:55 AM 2/13/2006 -0800, Guido van Rossum wrote:
One recommendation: for starters, I'd much rather see the bytes type
standardized without a literal notation. There should be are lots of
ways to create bytes objects from string objects
I've rejected PEP 351, with a reference to this thread as the rationale.
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On 2/12/06, Greg Ewing [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[A large head-exploding set of rules]
Blarg.
Const - Just Say No.
+1
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a TypeError and then
checking the message string ... does not seem clean.)
I'm not sure what you mean. How could index(x) ever replace
isinstance(x, (int, long)) without raising an exception? Surely
index(abc) *should* raise an exception.
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+1
On 2/13/06, Jeremy Hylton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
It sounds like the right answer for Python is to change the signature
of PyArg_ParseTupleAndKeywords() back. We'll fix it when C fixes its
const rules wink.
Jeremy
On 2/13/06, Guido van Rossum [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 2/12/06
On 2/13/06, M.-A. Lemburg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Guido van Rossum wrote:
It'd be cruel and unusual punishment though to have to write
bytes(abc, Latin-1)
I propose that the default encoding (for basestring instances) ought
to be ascii just like everywhere else. (Meaning, it should
. :)
In Py3k, I can see two reasonable approaches to conversion between
strings (Unicode) and bytes: always require an explicit encoding, or
assume ASCII. Anything else is asking for trouble IMO.
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only the Unicode
part will be relevant then.
And I think then the encoding should be required or default to ASCII.
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str and bytes as not an encoding but a data type
change *only*.
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(not
setuplib as I mistakenly called it previously)? (I'm still a bit
unclear on the various concepts here, not having made a distribution
of anything in a very long time...)
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Sorry, you're right. operator.index() sounds fine.
--Guido
On 2/13/06, Alex Martelli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 2/13/06, Guido van Rossum [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
...
I don't like to add a built-in index() at this point; mostly because
of Occam's razor (we haven't found a need).
I
agree that string to bytes shouldn't change the value of the bytes.
It's a deal then.
Can the owner of PEP 332 update the PEP to record these decisions?
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are being taken, from
isinstance(x, (list, tuple)) to isinstance(x, basestring).)
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with a
single byte of value 0x80.
Yes to both again.
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On 2/13/06, Neil Schemenauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Guido van Rossum [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In py3k, when the str object is eliminated, then what do you have?
Perhaps
- bytes(\x80), you get an error, encoding is required. There is no
such thing as default encoding anymore, as there's
perhaps we'd be using openbinary(filename, 'w)).
Perhaps write(somedata) should automatically coerce the data to bytes?
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another bdist_msi release before contributing it to Python.
Please go ahead.
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On 2/14/06, Just van Rossum [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Guido van Rossum wrote:
[...] surely text files are more commonly used, and surely the
most common operation should have the shorter name -- call it the
Huffman Principle.
+1 for two functions.
My choice would be open() for binary
) as the
only way to convert a string (which is always unicode) to bytes. The
problem with this is that there's no code that works in both 2.x and
3.0.
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On 2/14/06, Thomas Wouters [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Mon, Feb 13, 2006 at 03:44:27PM -0800, Guido van Rossum wrote:
But adding an encoding doesn't help. The str.encode() method always
assumes that the string itself is ASCII-encoded, and that's not good
enough:
abc.encode(latin-1
recursively and telling them what
file to print to, rather than getting a temporary string from them and
printing that. I always wondered why you could do that from C
extensions but not from Python code.
I want to keep the Python-level API small.
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I'm not sure I understand your silent errors fear; can you elaborate?
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On 2/13/06, Phillip J. Eby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
At 04:29 PM 2/13/2006 -0800, Guido van Rossum wrote:
On 2/13/06, Phillip J. Eby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I didn't mean that it was the only purpose. In Python 2.x, practical code
has to sometimes deal with string-like objects
(some_bytes_object) is bytes? Yes. But that doesn't
constrain the API much.
Anyway, I'm now convinced that bytes should act as an array of ints,
where the ints are restricted to range(0, 256) but have type int.
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be internally implemented
by creating a new bytes object each time. Perhaps the implementation
effort isn't so minimal after all...
(PS why is there a reply-to in your email the excludes you from the
list of recipients but includes me?)
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On 2/14/06, Neil Schemenauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Maybe you should ask your coworkers. :-) I think gmail is trying to
do something intelligent with the Mail-Followup-To header.
But you're the only person for whom it does that. Do you have a funny
gmail setting?
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On 2/14/06, Bob Ippolito [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Feb 14, 2006, at 3:13 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
- we need a new PEP; PEP 332 won't cut it
- no b... literal
- bytes objects are mutable
- bytes objects are composed of ints in range(256)
- you can pass any iterable of ints
underlying array is allocated inline with the str header,
this require str and bytes to have the same object layout. But since
bytes are mutable, they can't.
Summary: you don't understand the implementation well enough to
suggest these kinds of things.
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and the latter is wrong
in 3.0). I'm tempting to hold out for open() since it's most
compatible.
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the situation or make it worse ?
I'm not worried about this scenario. What if all the programmers in
the world suddenly became dumb?
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probably be a mistake.
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On 2/15/06, Tim Parkin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Guido van Rossum wrote:
(Now that I work for Google I realize more than ever before the
importance of keeping URLs stable; PageRank(tm) numbers don't get
transferred as quickly as contents. I have this worry too in the
context
currently not able to give much thought to any more new proposals,
so don't expect me to look at it any time soon. Unless a miracle
occurs it's off the table for 2.5 so there's no hurry.
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On 2/15/06, Bill Janssen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The default behavior of the current open() in opening files as text is
particularly grating.
Why? Are you perhaps one of those rare folks who read more binary data
than text?
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looking for, but for backwards
compatibility we can't change the default on Windows in Python 2.x, so
the point is moot until 3.0 or until a new binary file API is added to
2.x.
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idea. (Hence
the movement to have separate opentext and openbinary or openbytes
functions.)
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is
that every OS with any kind of text support has a way to get this info
-- even if it's as rudimentary as it's always ASCII (v7 Unix :-) or
it's always UTF-8 (I am hoping this will eventually be the answer in
the distant future).
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. :-)
It's probably easier to do that by placing a line
str = unicode
at the top of the file. Of course (like a good per-module switch
should!) this won't affect code in other modules that you invoke so
it's not clear that it always does the right thing. But it's a start.
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On 2/15/06, Greg Ewing [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Guido van Rossum wrote:
So how about
openbytes? This clearly links the resulting object with the bytes
type, which is mutually reassuring.
That looks quite nice.
Another thought -- what is going to happen to os.open?
Will it change
On 2/16/06, Nick Coghlan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Guido van Rossum wrote:
Do you have unit tests for everything? I believe I fixed a bug in the
code that reads a bytecode file (it wasn't skipping the timestamp).
[Hey, I thought I sent that just to you. Is python-dev really
interested
there
- d.default should be a read-only attribute giving the default value
Feedback?
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data, even Unix programmers will be using
openbytes() from the start.
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still be a good name for the function that opens a text file.
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of sorts).
Years ago I wrote a prototype; checkout sandbox/sio/.
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On 2/16/06, Paul Moore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 2/16/06, Guido van Rossum [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 2/16/06, Nick Coghlan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The PEP itself requests that a string be returned from get_data(), but
doesn't
require that the file be opened in text mode. Perhaps
On 2/15/06, Bengt Richter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 18:57:26 -0800, Guido van Rossum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
My expectation is that the Py3k standard I/O library will do all of
its own conversions on top of binary files anyway -- if you missed it,
I'd like to get rid
, other):
if isinstance(other, array):
return bytes(super(bytes, self).__add__(other))
return NotImplemented
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On 2/16/06, Guido van Rossum [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Over lunch with Alex Martelli, he proposed that a subclass of dict
with this behavior (but implemented in C) would be a good addition to
the language. It looks like it wouldn't be hard to implement. It could
be a builtin named defaultdict
On 2/17/06, Alex Martelli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 2/16/06, Guido van Rossum [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
A bunch of Googlers were discussing the best way of doing the
...
Wow, what a great discussion! As you'll recall, I had also mentioned
the callable factory as a live possibility
about dicts of dicts, dicts of sets, dicts of
user-defined objects?
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On 2/17/06, Thomas Heller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Ahem, I'm still looking for ways to 'overtake' the dict to implement
weird and fancy things. Can on_missing be overridden in subclasses (writing
the subclass in C would not be a problem)?
Why ahem?
The answer is yes.
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On 2/16/06, Stephen J. Turnbull [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
/usr/share often is on a different mount; that's the whole rationale
for /usr/share.
I don't think I've worked at a place where something like that was
done for at least 10 years. Isn't this argument outdated?
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can avoid this kind of confusion -- I could have given you some
other mapping object that does weird stuff.
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On 2/17/06, Ian Bicking [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Guido van Rossum wrote:
d = {}
d.default_factory = set
...
d[key].add(value)
Another option would be:
d = {}
d.default_factory = set
d.get_default(key).add(value)
Unlike .setdefault, this would use a factory associated
Cut to the chase: -1000.
On 2/17/06, Bengt Richter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Cut to the chase: how about being able to write
baz(bar(foo(x, y)),z)
serially as
foo(x, y) - bar() - baz(z)
via the above as sugar for
baz.__get__(bar.__get__(foo(x, y))())(z)
?
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On 2/17/06, Martin v. Löwis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Guido van Rossum wrote:
On 2/16/06, Stephen J. Turnbull [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
/usr/share often is on a different mount; that's the whole rationale
for /usr/share.
I don't think I've worked at a place where something like
that would break this way.
I believe that *most* code that takes a dict will work just fine if
that dict has a default factory.
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Richter
On Fri, 17 Feb 2006 14:17:41 -0800, Guido van Rossum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
Cut to the chase: -1000.
On 2/17/06, Bengt Richter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Cut to the chase: how about being able to write
baz(bar(foo(x, y)),z)
serially as
foo(x, y) - bar() - baz(z
/sf/1433928
So there's no excuse to be practical now.
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Martin and your proposed semantics, you'd have to write
if d.get(key):
print whatever
or (worse)
if d[key]: # inserts an empty list into the dict!
print whatever
I'd much rather be able to write if key in d and get the result I want...
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know of any embedded platform that doesn't have unicode support
as a requirement? Python runs fine on Nokia phones running Symbian,
where *everything* is a Unicode string.
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wasting a lot
of horizontal space in the first two columns the second is almost
always empty. Perhaps the author of the change could be placed *below*
the timestamp instead of next to it? Also for all practical purposes
we can probably get rid of the seconds in the timestamp.
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instead of with
the call site.
Let the third round of the games begin!
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for 2.3 but unless you also provide a patch it's
unlikely to be fixed; the memory allocation code was revamped
significantly for 2.4 so there's no simple backport of the fix
available.
(*)
d = {}
for i in range(10): d[repr(i)] = i
s = str(d)
while 1: x = eval(s); print 'x'
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On 2/20/06, Raymond Hettinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[GvR]
Alternative A: add a new method to the dict type with the semantics of
__getattr__ from the last proposal
Did you mean __getitem__?
Yes, sorry, I meant __getitem__.
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On 2/20/06, Steven Bethard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Guido van Rossum wrote:
Alternative A: add a new method to the dict type with the semantics of
[__getitem__] from the last proposal, using default_factory if not None
(except on_missing is inlined).
I'm not certain I understood
This is actually a fairly powerful argument for a subclass that
redefines __getitem__ in favor of a new dict method. (Not to mention
that it's much easier to pick a name for the subclass than for the
method. :-) See the new thread I started.
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with deprecating them
all; most likely we'll have to have some kind of (semi-)automatic
conversion tool.
Deprecation in 2.x is generally done to indicate that a feature will
be removed in 2.y for y = x+1.
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believe that this is as easy as you think.
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On 2/20/06, Alex Martelli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Feb 20, 2006, at 12:33 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
...
You don't need a new feature for that use case; d[k] = d.get(k, 0) + 1
is perfectly fine there and hard to improve upon.
I see d[k]+=1 as a substantial improvement
to *create* an object. As
the *user* of an object you're not allowed to *create* another
instance (unless the object provides an explicit API to do so, of
course, in which case you deal with that API's signature, not with the
constructor).
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to
write to customize the behavior; it also reduces worries about how to
call the superclass __getitem__ method (catching KeyError *might*
catch an unrelated KeyError caused by a bug in the key's __hash__ or
__eq__ method).
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On 2/20/06, Guido van Rossum [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[stuff with typos]
Here's the proofread version:
I have a patch ready that implements this. I've assigned it to Raymond
for review. I'm just reusing the same SF patch as before:
http://python.org/sf/1433928 .
One subtlety: for maximal
for a while? I
recommend that you sit back, relax for a season, and reflect on the
zen nature of Pythonicity. Then come back and hopefully you'll be able
to post without embarrassing yourself continuously.
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[types.BuiltinFunctionType] = _deepcopy_atomic
+d[types.FunctionType] = _deepcopy_atomic
def _deepcopy_list(x, memo):
y = []
Any objections? Given that these are picklable, I can't imagine there
are any but I thought I'd ask anyway.
--
--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido
raise this, and in that case it
would be a mistake to call on_missing().
IMO pretty much the only reason for keeping the changes contained
within the collections module would be code modularity; but the above
argument about code reuse deconstructs that argument.
--
--Guido van Rossum (home page
On 2/22/06, Raymond Hettinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[Guido van Rossum]
If we removed on_missing() from dict, we'd have to override
__getitem__ in defaultdict (regardless of whether we give
defaultdict an on_missing() hook or in-line it).
You have another option. Keep your current
?
Good point. I'll call it __missing__. I've uploaded a new patch to
python.org/sf/1433928.
--
--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)
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the decisions. If we were wrong (which I doubt) we'll have
the opportunity to take a different direction in 2.6.
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--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)
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to a file with a simple file.
--
--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)
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file.
It is currently impossible to separate profile output from the program's
output.
It is if you use the advanced use of the profiler -- the profiling
run just saves the profiling data to a file, and the pstats module
invoked separately prints the output.
--
--Guido van Rossum (home page
FWIW this has now been checked in. Enjoy!
--Guido
On 2/23/06, Guido van Rossum [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 2/22/06, Michael Chermside [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
A minor related point about on_missing():
Haven't we learned from regrets over the .next() method of iterators
that all
level. The C implementation doesn't take an
argument. Adding an argument would cause all sorts of code breakage
and possible segfaults (if there's 3rd party code calling tp_next for
example).
In 3.0 we could fix this.
--
--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido
On 2/28/06, Mike Bland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 2/28/06, Guido van Rossum [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I just realized that there's a bug in the with-statement as currently
checked in. __exit__ is supposed to re-raise the exception if there
was one; if it returns normally, the finally clause
On 2/28/06, Mike Bland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 2/28/06, Guido van Rossum [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 2/28/06, Mike Bland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 2/28/06, Guido van Rossum [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I just realized that there's a bug in the with-statement as currently
checked
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