subject:"Re\: \[sqlite\] Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM"

On Nov 21, 2017, at 1:20 PM, Keith Medcalf  wrote:
> 
> Strict RFC compliance is very simple:

We await your patch, then. :)

> And checking SPF is pretty useful as well.

But not DKIM, which solves the same problem as SPF, but with strong crypto so 
it can’t be MITM’d?

DKIM effectively signs email from a given server.  It doesn’t tell you that a 
particular person sent it, but it does unambiguously prove that a given 
*server* sent it, assuming the server doesn’t lose control of its private key.

Some receivers may require only SPF, and some may require only DKIM, so if you 
don’t support both, you cut those receivers off.

Some receivers may support both but weigh a correct response to one higher than 
the other, so if you only support the lesser-ranked one, your messages are more 
likely to be seen as spam, which gets you right back onto the boat aboard which 
we sailed off into this thread.

> DMARC generally causes more trouble than it solves

That may well be, but some receivers may require it.  If this proposed 
MTA/forum/mailing list doesn’t support it, those sites will be cut off.

Which sites?  Let’s start with the US federal government:

https://goo.gl/F7ahDg

…which employs a large fraction of the US workforce:

   https://goo.gl/nXDCc4

…all of which we’re willing to cut off from discussing SQLite and Fossil?

> And this is all without blacklists or other questionable whack-job filtering …

You’re only considering the inbound SMTP case, I think.  This MTA must also 
talk to all the other existing SMTP servers, since to a first approximation, 
all SMTP servers have a SQLite or Fossil user behind them.
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Re: [sqlite] Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

2017-11-21 Thread Gary R. Schmidt


On 22/11/2017 01:30, Richard Hipp wrote:

On 11/21/17, Paul Sanderson  wrote:

Coincidence!  I have just been in my gmail folder marking a load of SQLite
email as 'not spam'


I've been seeing mailing list emails go to spam for a while now.
Nothing has changed with MailMan.  I think what we are seeing is the
beginning of the end of email as a viable communication medium.

I really need to come up with an alternative to the mailing list.
Perhaps some kind of forum system.  Suggestions are welcomed.

There is nothing wrong with email - but there is an awful lot wrong with 
gnail and Google's ideas on how email is done.  (Not to mention Yahoo, 
but it seems that MS have the sense to leave the underpinnings of 
hotmail as they were.)


To put it simply - friends don't let friends use gmail.

Cheers,
GaryB-)
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Re: [sqlite] Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

2017-11-21 Thread Petite Abeille



> On Nov 21, 2017, at 6:23 PM, Warren Young  wrote:
> 
> This is what drh does.  We’re fans because he does it well.

drh + djb = bliss?

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Re: [sqlite] Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

2017-11-21 Thread Petite Abeille

> On Nov 21, 2017, at 3:30 PM, Richard Hipp  wrote:
> 
> I think what we are seeing is the beginning of the end of email as a viable 
> communication medium.

Nonsense. Email is one of these cockroach technologies: it will survive us all. 

> I really need to come up with an alternative to the mailing list.

No you don’t. You just want to.

> Perhaps some kind of forum system.  Suggestions are welcomed.

Stay put. Relax. It will pass. 

There are more productive way to spend your time: what about adding analytic 
functions, and MERGE to SQLite for one.

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Re: [sqlite] Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM


And checking SPF is pretty useful as well.  Once you have enforced strict 
compliance, however, the effect of SPF is negligible (less than 1/1000%).  

DKIM/DMARC generally causes more trouble than it solves (it was designed by a 
committee of idiots after all) and should be mostly ignored other than for 
displaying a DKIM Signature Status in the mail reader interface.

Most of the problem is the horribly broken e-mail clients, none of which 
display useful information.  For those old enough to remember postal mail, it 
is like having a secretary that throws out the envelope and trims off most of 
the inside and signature information before giving you your mail.

---
The fact that there's a Highway to Hell but only a Stairway to Heaven says a 
lot about anticipated traffic volume.


>Strict RFC compliance is very simple:
>
>(1) When a remote MTA connects it MUST NOT speak until spoken to.
>(2) A remote MTA MUST NOT violate the command/response protocol.
>(3) The IP Address of the remote host MUST resolve (in the in-
>addr.arpa domain) to a name that forward resolves to a set of IP
>Addresses that includes the originating address.
>(4) The name given by a remote host in its HELO or EHLO, if not an IP
>Address, must be resolvable to an IP Address.
>(5) The domain name given in the envelope-from must be resolvable to
>an IP Address.
>
>Optional:
>
>(6) The IP Address determined by step 4 must accept SMTP connections.
>(7) The IP Address determined by step 5 must accept SMTP connections.
>(8) The MTA in step 7 must accept an envelope specifying envelope-to
>the original envelope sender with an empty envelope-from
>
>Enforcing compliance with (1) eliminates >70% of all spam.
>Enforcing compliance with (2) eliminates an additional 10% of all
>spam.
>Enforcing compliance with (3) eliminates an additional 10% of all
>spam.
>Enforcing compliance with (4) and (5) eliminates almost another 10%
>of spam.
>Enforcing (6), (7), and (8) (that is, requiring full RFC compliance)
>eliminates 99.99% of spam.
>
>If you also can enforce the dropping of direct-to-mx connections
>(that is, connections to higher numbered MX's should be rejected if a
>lower number MX MTA is availkable), then you can increase the spam
>rejection to about 99.999%
>
>And this is all without blacklists or other questionable whack-job
>filtering ...
>
>
>---
>The fact that there's a Highway to Hell but only a Stairway to Heaven
>says a lot about anticipated traffic volume.
>
>
>>-Original Message-
>>From: sqlite-users [mailto:sqlite-users-
>>boun...@mailinglists.sqlite.org] On Behalf Of Warren Young
>>Sent: Tuesday, 21 November, 2017 12:43
>>To: SQLite mailing list
>>Subject: Re: [sqlite] Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM
>>
>>On Nov 21, 2017, at 10:24 AM, Peter Da Silva
>><peter.dasi...@flightaware.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> But the mailers I use (Gmail’s web interface, Apple Mail and
>(yuck)
>>Outlook) all do basic threading.
>>
>>I’d describe what Apple Mail and Gmail do as “clumping” rather than
>>“threading.”
>>
>>I think we can all agree that drh gets trees, so if he wants to make
>>a threaded web forum, he certainly needs no advice from us on how to
>>achieve it.
>>
>>The effort to implement Hacker News can’t have been all that great.
>>It would suffice for our purposes.  Do it atop Fossil and you get
>>user authentication for free, which reduces spam.  When (!) spam
>gets
>>through, it can be shunned using the normal Fossil mechanism, so
>that
>>later clones don’t contain it.
>>
>>As far as I can tell, the only really hard part is the email
>>gatewaying problem, evidenced by the fact that Fossil still doesn’t
>>have a feature to echo commits, ticket changes, etc. via email.
>>
>>The comment up-thread about RFC-complaint email handwaves the
>>complexity of achieving that in 2017, even when using existing
>tools,
>>which is not a given where drh is concerned.
>>
>>If you start with Postfix’s RFC list:
>>
>>   http://www.postfix.org/smtpd.8.html
>>
>>then chase all the “obsoleted by” and “updated by” links from those
>>RFCs and add in completely missing RFCs that are also requirements
>in
>>2017, you get this list, which is probably also incomplete, because
>I
>>am no expert on MTA implementation:
>>
>>   RFC 1123 (Host requirements)
>>   RFC 1870 (Message size declaration)
>>   RFC 1985 (ETRN command)
>>   RFC 2034 (SMTP enhanced status codes)
>>   RFC 2920 (SMTP pipelining)
>>   RFC 3207 (STARTTLS command)
>>   RFC 3461 (SMTP DSN extension)
>>   RFC

Re: [sqlite] Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM


Strict RFC compliance is very simple:

(1) When a remote MTA connects it MUST NOT speak until spoken to.
(2) A remote MTA MUST NOT violate the command/response protocol.
(3) The IP Address of the remote host MUST resolve (in the in-addr.arpa domain) 
to a name that forward resolves to a set of IP Addresses that includes the 
originating address.
(4) The name given by a remote host in its HELO or EHLO, if not an IP Address, 
must be resolvable to an IP Address.
(5) The domain name given in the envelope-from must be resolvable to an IP 
Address.

Optional:

(6) The IP Address determined by step 4 must accept SMTP connections.
(7) The IP Address determined by step 5 must accept SMTP connections.
(8) The MTA in step 7 must accept an envelope specifying envelope-to the 
original envelope sender with an empty envelope-from

Enforcing compliance with (1) eliminates >70% of all spam.
Enforcing compliance with (2) eliminates an additional 10% of all spam.
Enforcing compliance with (3) eliminates an additional 10% of all spam.
Enforcing compliance with (4) and (5) eliminates almost another 10% of spam.
Enforcing (6), (7), and (8) (that is, requiring full RFC compliance) eliminates 
99.99% of spam.

If you also can enforce the dropping of direct-to-mx connections (that is, 
connections to higher numbered MX's should be rejected if a lower number MX MTA 
is availkable), then you can increase the spam rejection to about 99.999%

And this is all without blacklists or other questionable whack-job filtering ...


---
The fact that there's a Highway to Hell but only a Stairway to Heaven says a 
lot about anticipated traffic volume.


>-Original Message-
>From: sqlite-users [mailto:sqlite-users-
>boun...@mailinglists.sqlite.org] On Behalf Of Warren Young
>Sent: Tuesday, 21 November, 2017 12:43
>To: SQLite mailing list
>Subject: Re: [sqlite] Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM
>
>On Nov 21, 2017, at 10:24 AM, Peter Da Silva
><peter.dasi...@flightaware.com> wrote:
>>
>> But the mailers I use (Gmail’s web interface, Apple Mail and (yuck)
>Outlook) all do basic threading.
>
>I’d describe what Apple Mail and Gmail do as “clumping” rather than
>“threading.”
>
>I think we can all agree that drh gets trees, so if he wants to make
>a threaded web forum, he certainly needs no advice from us on how to
>achieve it.
>
>The effort to implement Hacker News can’t have been all that great.
>It would suffice for our purposes.  Do it atop Fossil and you get
>user authentication for free, which reduces spam.  When (!) spam gets
>through, it can be shunned using the normal Fossil mechanism, so that
>later clones don’t contain it.
>
>As far as I can tell, the only really hard part is the email
>gatewaying problem, evidenced by the fact that Fossil still doesn’t
>have a feature to echo commits, ticket changes, etc. via email.
>
>The comment up-thread about RFC-complaint email handwaves the
>complexity of achieving that in 2017, even when using existing tools,
>which is not a given where drh is concerned.
>
>If you start with Postfix’s RFC list:
>
>   http://www.postfix.org/smtpd.8.html
>
>then chase all the “obsoleted by” and “updated by” links from those
>RFCs and add in completely missing RFCs that are also requirements in
>2017, you get this list, which is probably also incomplete, because I
>am no expert on MTA implementation:
>
>   RFC 1123 (Host requirements)
>   RFC 1870 (Message size declaration)
>   RFC 1985 (ETRN command)
>   RFC 2034 (SMTP enhanced status codes)
>   RFC 2920 (SMTP pipelining)
>   RFC 3207 (STARTTLS command)
>   RFC 3461 (SMTP DSN extension)
>   RFC 3463 (Enhanced status codes)
>   RFC 3848 (ESMTP transmission types)
>   RFC 3885 (SMTP Service Extension for Message Tracking)
>   RFC 4954 (AUTH command)
>   RFC 5321 (SMTP protocol)
>   RFC 5322 (Internet Message Format)
>   RFC 6152 (8bit-MIME transport)
>   RFC 6409 (Message Submission for Mail)
>   RFC 6531 (Internationalized SMTP)
>   RFC 6532 (Internationalized Email Headers)
>   RFC 6533 (Internationalized Delivery Status Notifications)
>   RFC 7489 (DMARC)
>   RFC 7504 (SMTP 521 and 556 Reply Codes)
>   RFC 7505 ("Null MX" No Service Resource Record)
>   RFC 7817 (STARTTLS updates)
>   RFC 8098 (Message Disposition Notification)
>
>Those 23 standards print as 579 pages.  Yes, that’s right, someone
>“just” has to implement 579 pages of standardese, which gets you only
>SMTP, which we’d better hope is enough since IMAPv4 + POPv3 probably
>doubles that again.
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Re: [sqlite] Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

2017-11-21 Thread sub sk79

I vote to keep mailing list. It works great for me with GMail (accessible
from all my devices instantly)
Reasons:
1. GMail has a threaded view built-in which works great. You might need to
enable it in settings.
2. I doubt if any spam filter can ever be better than Gmail's. Spam
fighting is not just a matter of having Bayesian algos right -- it needs
mountains of data to work right. Who can beat Google in that?
3. Searching fast and accurate is crucial to my use of SQLite mailing list.
Again Google can't be beat.
4. If at all needed, maybe this offering  from Google is the way to go:
https://support.google.com/a/answer/167430?hl=en (I have no experience
using it, though)

Thanks,
SK

On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 1:53 PM, Mike King  wrote:

>
> Another vote for a threaded forum here. I do try and keep up with the ML
> but if it was threaded it would be a lot easier.
>
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Re: [sqlite] Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

2017-11-21 Thread Petite Abeille



> On Nov 21, 2017, at 8:42 PM, Warren Young  wrote:
> 
> As far as I can tell, the only really hard part is the email gatewaying 
> problem, evidenced by the fact that Fossil still doesn’t have a feature to 
> echo commits, ticket changes, etc. via email.

“Every program attempts to expand until it can read mail. Those programs which 
cannot so expand are replaced by ones which can.” 

— Zawinski's Law


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Re: [sqlite] Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

On Nov 21, 2017, at 10:24 AM, Peter Da Silva  
wrote:
> 
> But the mailers I use (Gmail’s web interface, Apple Mail and (yuck) Outlook) 
> all do basic threading.

I’d describe what Apple Mail and Gmail do as “clumping” rather than “threading.”

I think we can all agree that drh gets trees, so if he wants to make a threaded 
web forum, he certainly needs no advice from us on how to achieve it.

The effort to implement Hacker News can’t have been all that great.  It would 
suffice for our purposes.  Do it atop Fossil and you get user authentication 
for free, which reduces spam.  When (!) spam gets through, it can be shunned 
using the normal Fossil mechanism, so that later clones don’t contain it.

As far as I can tell, the only really hard part is the email gatewaying 
problem, evidenced by the fact that Fossil still doesn’t have a feature to echo 
commits, ticket changes, etc. via email.

The comment up-thread about RFC-complaint email handwaves the complexity of 
achieving that in 2017, even when using existing tools, which is not a given 
where drh is concerned.  

If you start with Postfix’s RFC list:

   http://www.postfix.org/smtpd.8.html

then chase all the “obsoleted by” and “updated by” links from those RFCs and 
add in completely missing RFCs that are also requirements in 2017, you get this 
list, which is probably also incomplete, because I am no expert on MTA 
implementation:

   RFC 1123 (Host requirements)
   RFC 1870 (Message size declaration)
   RFC 1985 (ETRN command)
   RFC 2034 (SMTP enhanced status codes)
   RFC 2920 (SMTP pipelining)
   RFC 3207 (STARTTLS command)
   RFC 3461 (SMTP DSN extension)
   RFC 3463 (Enhanced status codes)
   RFC 3848 (ESMTP transmission types)
   RFC 3885 (SMTP Service Extension for Message Tracking)
   RFC 4954 (AUTH command)
   RFC 5321 (SMTP protocol) 
   RFC 5322 (Internet Message Format)
   RFC 6152 (8bit-MIME transport)
   RFC 6409 (Message Submission for Mail)
   RFC 6531 (Internationalized SMTP)
   RFC 6532 (Internationalized Email Headers)
   RFC 6533 (Internationalized Delivery Status Notifications)
   RFC 7489 (DMARC)
   RFC 7504 (SMTP 521 and 556 Reply Codes)
   RFC 7505 ("Null MX" No Service Resource Record)
   RFC 7817 (STARTTLS updates)
   RFC 8098 (Message Disposition Notification)

Those 23 standards print as 579 pages.  Yes, that’s right, someone “just” has 
to implement 579 pages of standardese, which gets you only SMTP, which we’d 
better hope is enough since IMAPv4 + POPv3 probably doubles that again.
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Re: [sqlite] Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

2017-11-21 Thread Mike King

In the UK we’ve still got a threaded conferencing service called CIX must
be over 30 years old now (it was based on BIX / Cosy). The joke is it’s the
UKs oldest online social network :)

Another vote for a threaded forum here. I do try and keep up with the ML
but if it was threaded it would be a lot easier.

Cheers,

Mike

On Tue, 21 Nov 2017 at 17:20, Paul Sanderson 
wrote:

> What about some sort of poll.
>
> Mail lists might work but the additonal functionality offered by a forum (I
> am a member of many) makes them my choice.
>
> Paul
> www.sandersonforensics.com
> skype: r3scue193
> twitter: @sandersonforens
> Tel +44 (0)1326 572786
> http://sandersonforensics.com/forum/content.php?195-SQLite-Forensic-Toolkit
> -Forensic
> 
> Toolkit for SQLite
> email from a work address for a fully functional demo licence
>
> On 21 November 2017 at 16:43, Martin Raiber  wrote:
>
> > On 21.11.2017 17:30 John McKown wrote:
> > > On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 10:27 AM, Drago, William @ CSG - NARDA-MITEQ <
> > > william.dr...@l3t.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >>> I really need to come up with an alternative to the mailing list.
> > >>> Perhaps some kind of forum system.  Suggestions are welcomed.
> > >>> --
> > >>> D. Richard Hipp
> > >>> d...@sqlite.org
> > >> Please, not a forum. The email list is instant, dynamic, and
> > convenient. I
> > >> don't think checking into a forum to stay current with the brisk
> > activity
> > >> here is very practical or appealing.
> > > I completely agree. The problem with a forum is mainly that it is not
> > _a_
> > > forum. It is a forum per list. Which means I spend way too much time
> > > "polling" 8 to 10 web "forums" during the day just to see if anybody
> has
> > > said anything of interest.
> >
> > I am using Discourse as community forum and I cannot really see any
> > downside to that except for the increased server requirements.
> > Individuals who want to use it like a mailing list still can do that
> > (enable mailing list mode). They have a FAQ wrt. to cos/prons mailing
> > list:
> https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-vs-email-mailing-lists/54298
> >
> > ___
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> > sqlite-users@mailinglists.sqlite.org
> > http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
> >
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Re: [sqlite] Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

2017-11-21 Thread David Raymond

Haven't you read the FAQ? http://www.sqlite.org/faq.html#q6
"Threads are evil. Avoid them."


(Sorry, couldn't resist)


-Original Message-
From: sqlite-users [mailto:sqlite-users-boun...@mailinglists.sqlite.org] On 
Behalf Of Peter Da Silva
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 12:24 PM
To: SQLite mailing list
Subject: Re: [sqlite] Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

On 11/21/17, 11:21 AM, "sqlite-users on behalf of Warren Young" 
<sqlite-users-boun...@mailinglists.sqlite.org on behalf of war...@etr-usa.com> 
wrote:
> You don’t get proper threading with the current ticket comment system, but 
> both mailers I use these days lack that feature, as do most forum systems.  I 
> miss threading, but clearly I can live without it.

If by “proper threading” you mean trn-style, no, nothing but Usenet has ever 
gotten that right.

But the mailers I use (Gmail’s web interface, Apple Mail and (yuck) Outlook) 
all do basic threading.

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Re: [sqlite] Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

2017-11-21 Thread Darren Duncan


On 2017-11-21 6:30 AM, Richard Hipp wrote:

On 11/21/17, Paul Sanderson  wrote:

Coincidence!  I have just been in my gmail folder marking a load of SQLite
email as 'not spam'


I've been seeing mailing list emails go to spam for a while now.
Nothing has changed with MailMan.  I think what we are seeing is the
beginning of the end of email as a viable communication medium.

I really need to come up with an alternative to the mailing list.
Perhaps some kind of forum system.  Suggestions are welcomed.


If you do go the forum route, please choose one with an email interface so that 
one can choose to receive an email for each forum message (it doesn't have to 
support posting via email though), and download archives of messages, so we 
don't go backwards. -- Darren Duncan


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Re: [sqlite] Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

IMO, the additional functionality provided doesn't outweigh yet another
niche and individual forum I need to log into that can potentially end up
being hacked.  Its another thing Richard (et all) has to maintain and
update.

On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 12:20 PM, Paul Sanderson <
sandersonforens...@gmail.com> wrote:

> What about some sort of poll.
>
> Mail lists might work but the additonal functionality offered by a forum (I
> am a member of many) makes them my choice.
>
> Paul
> www.sandersonforensics.com
> skype: r3scue193
> twitter: @sandersonforens
> Tel +44 (0)1326 572786
> http://sandersonforensics.com/forum/content.php?195-SQLite-
> Forensic-Toolkit
> -Forensic Toolkit for SQLite
> email from a work address for a fully functional demo licence
>
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Re: [sqlite] Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

On 11/21/17, 11:21 AM, "sqlite-users on behalf of Warren Young" 

wrote:
> You don’t get proper threading with the current ticket comment system, but 
> both mailers I use these days lack that feature, as do most forum systems.  I 
> miss threading, but clearly I can live without it.

If by “proper threading” you mean trn-style, no, nothing but Usenet has ever 
gotten that right.

But the mailers I use (Gmail’s web interface, Apple Mail and (yuck) Outlook) 
all do basic threading.

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Re: [sqlite] Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

On Nov 21, 2017, at 7:52 AM, Dominique Devienne  wrote:
> 
> On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 3:30 PM, Richard Hipp  wrote:
> 
>> I really need to come up with an alternative to the mailing list. Perhaps 
>> some kind of forum system.  Suggestions are welcomed.
> 
> After re-inventing database and source-control, forum software next? :)

Also parser generators:

   http://www.hwaci.com/sw/lemon/

This is what drh does.  We’re fans because he does it well.
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Re: [sqlite] Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

On Nov 21, 2017, at 7:30 AM, Richard Hipp  wrote:
> 
> On 11/21/17, Paul Sanderson  wrote:
>> Coincidence!  I have just been in my gmail folder marking a load of SQLite
>> email as 'not spam'
> 
> I've been seeing mailing list emails go to spam for a while now.
> Nothing has changed with MailMan.  I think what we are seeing is the
> beginning of the end of email as a viable communication medium.
> 
> I really need to come up with an alternative to the mailing list.
> Perhaps some kind of forum system.  Suggestions are welcomed.

I thought the idea that came up last time this subject came up was pretty good: 
rework Fossil's ticketing system into a web forum.  Then everyone who clones 
the repository also has a forum archive.  

Import the current mail archive, and now everyone who clones gets a clean 
FTSable copy of the old ML archives going back years and years.

I don’t mean that both purposes are served by the same code, I mean that the 
ticketing system is already pretty far down the road toward a web forum.  If 
they do end up sharing code, tickets would be a subset of the web forum, not 
the other way around.

You don’t get proper threading with the current ticket comment system, but both 
mailers I use these days lack that feature, as do most forum systems.  I miss 
threading, but clearly I can live without it.
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Re: [sqlite] Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

2017-11-21 Thread Paul Sanderson

What about some sort of poll.

Mail lists might work but the additonal functionality offered by a forum (I
am a member of many) makes them my choice.

Paul
www.sandersonforensics.com
skype: r3scue193
twitter: @sandersonforens
Tel +44 (0)1326 572786
http://sandersonforensics.com/forum/content.php?195-SQLite-Forensic-Toolkit
-Forensic Toolkit for SQLite
email from a work address for a fully functional demo licence

On 21 November 2017 at 16:43, Martin Raiber  wrote:

> On 21.11.2017 17:30 John McKown wrote:
> > On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 10:27 AM, Drago, William @ CSG - NARDA-MITEQ <
> > william.dr...@l3t.com> wrote:
> >
> >>> I really need to come up with an alternative to the mailing list.
> >>> Perhaps some kind of forum system.  Suggestions are welcomed.
> >>> --
> >>> D. Richard Hipp
> >>> d...@sqlite.org
> >> Please, not a forum. The email list is instant, dynamic, and
> convenient. I
> >> don't think checking into a forum to stay current with the brisk
> activity
> >> here is very practical or appealing.
> > I completely agree. The problem with a forum is mainly that it is not
> _a_
> > forum. It is a forum per list. Which means I spend way too much time
> > "polling" 8 to 10 web "forums" during the day just to see if anybody has
> > said anything of interest.
>
> I am using Discourse as community forum and I cannot really see any
> downside to that except for the increased server requirements.
> Individuals who want to use it like a mailing list still can do that
> (enable mailing list mode). They have a FAQ wrt. to cos/prons mailing
> list: https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-vs-email-mailing-lists/54298
>
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Re: [sqlite] Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

I’m a mailing list fan, too. Reddit I use for yucks only.

On 11/21/17, 10:48 AM, "sqlite-users on behalf of Stephen Chrzanowski" 
 
wrote:

All in all, just please, oh PLEASE stay away from redit  I will not
ever go there.  I got BANNED for a first post question that included an
example to clarify what I was looking for.  Nothing nasty, nothing
ignorant, it was a technical question about something or other, and out to
the curb I went.
 

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Re: [sqlite] Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

All in all, just please, oh PLEASE stay away from redit  I will not
ever go there.  I got BANNED for a first post question that included an
example to clarify what I was looking for.  Nothing nasty, nothing
ignorant, it was a technical question about something or other, and out to
the curb I went.

On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 11:43 AM, Martin Raiber  wrote:

> On 21.11.2017 17:30 John McKown wrote:
> > On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 10:27 AM, Drago, William @ CSG - NARDA-MITEQ <
> > william.dr...@l3t.com> wrote:
> >
> >>> I really need to come up with an alternative to the mailing list.
> >>> Perhaps some kind of forum system.  Suggestions are welcomed.
> >>> --
> >>> D. Richard Hipp
> >>> d...@sqlite.org
> >> Please, not a forum. The email list is instant, dynamic, and
> convenient. I
> >> don't think checking into a forum to stay current with the brisk
> activity
> >> here is very practical or appealing.
> > I completely agree. The problem with a forum is mainly that it is not
> _a_
> > forum. It is a forum per list. Which means I spend way too much time
> > "polling" 8 to 10 web "forums" during the day just to see if anybody has
> > said anything of interest.
>
> I am using Discourse as community forum and I cannot really see any
> downside to that except for the increased server requirements.
> Individuals who want to use it like a mailing list still can do that
> (enable mailing list mode). They have a FAQ wrt. to cos/prons mailing
> list: https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-vs-email-mailing-lists/54298
>
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Re: [sqlite] Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

2017-11-21 Thread Martin Raiber

On 21.11.2017 17:30 John McKown wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 10:27 AM, Drago, William @ CSG - NARDA-MITEQ <
> william.dr...@l3t.com> wrote:
>
>>> I really need to come up with an alternative to the mailing list.
>>> Perhaps some kind of forum system.  Suggestions are welcomed.
>>> --
>>> D. Richard Hipp
>>> d...@sqlite.org
>> Please, not a forum. The email list is instant, dynamic, and convenient. I
>> don't think checking into a forum to stay current with the brisk activity
>> here is very practical or appealing.
> I completely agree. The problem with a forum is mainly that it is not _a_
> forum. It is a forum per list. Which means I spend way too much time
> "polling" 8 to 10 web "forums" during the day just to see if anybody has
> said anything of interest.

I am using Discourse as community forum and I cannot really see any
downside to that except for the increased server requirements.
Individuals who want to use it like a mailing list still can do that
(enable mailing list mode). They have a FAQ wrt. to cos/prons mailing
list: https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-vs-email-mailing-lists/54298

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Re: [sqlite] Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

2017-11-21 Thread R Smith

On 2017/11/21 6:30 PM, Keith Medcalf wrote:

//...
I consider that there is no such thing as a "false positive". Either the sending MTA is
a properly configured RFC compliant Internet host with a properly configured MTA, or I do not want
to accept communications from it. If it is properly configured *AND* it is not on any of the
blacklists that I use (only some of which are spam related -- as I said there is a huge cross-over
between dirty spammers and dirty crackers) then I will accept the message. Otherwise, not only do
they not get to send messages, they will likely be "administratively prohibited" from
communicating at all on any port for any reason whatsoever. And that is THEIR problem to address,
not mine.

Just as there is a modern propensity for the re-labelling of "impersonation" as "identity theft" in
order to lay blame and inconvenience on the person impersonated instead of where it belongs (as a natural consequence
of the law) on the "impersonator" and the relying party who made the "mistake", pretending that the
recipient is somehow required to receive, read and obey whatever some idiot sends is an inversion of the natural order
of things and is delusional (on the part of both parties).
//...

For best effect, read the above with a German accent while holding your
right hand straight forward and pointing slightly up in front of you.

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Re: [sqlite] Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

On 11/21/17, 10:30 AM, "sqlite-users on behalf of Keith Medcalf" 

wrote:
> I simply tell those people that they either (a) fix their systems or (b) use 
> snail-mail.  Takes care of the problem entirely.

I am absolutely not going to get into that discussion with, for one example, a 
lawyer in another country who is helping me deal with winding down my mother’s 
estate.

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Re: [sqlite] Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

2017-11-21 Thread John McKown

On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 10:27 AM, Drago, William @ CSG - NARDA-MITEQ <
william.dr...@l3t.com> wrote:

> > I really need to come up with an alternative to the mailing list.
> > Perhaps some kind of forum system.  Suggestions are welcomed.
> > --
> > D. Richard Hipp
> > d...@sqlite.org
>
> Please, not a forum. The email list is instant, dynamic, and convenient. I
> don't think checking into a forum to stay current with the brisk activity
> here is very practical or appealing.
>

I completely agree. The problem with a forum is mainly that it is not _a_
forum. It is a forum per list. Which means I spend way too much time
"polling" 8 to 10 web "forums" during the day just to see if anybody has
said anything of interest.

>
> --
> Bill Drago
> Staff Engineer
> L3 Narda-MITEQ
> 435 Moreland Road
> Hauppauge, NY 11788
> 631-272-5947 / william.dr...@l3t.com
>

-- 
I have a theory that it's impossible to prove anything, but I can't prove
it.

Maranatha! <><
John McKown
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Re: [sqlite] Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

---
The fact that there's a Highway to Hell but only a Stairway to Heaven says a 
lot about anticipated traffic volume.

On Tuesday, 21 November, 2017 09:06, Peter Da Silva 
 wrote:

>On 11/21/17, 9:59 AM, "sqlite-users on behalf of Keith Medcalf"
>kmedc...@dessus.com> wrote:

>> If you run an RFC complaint MTA then there is really very little
>problem with SPAM at all -- I have many connections per second
>rejected for RFC non-compliance -- and get maybe 3 SPAM messages per
>day, all of which originate from the crappy Johhny-cum-lately
>freemail systems

>So. taronga.com is a high profile spam target thanks to my using it
>for Usenet posts for years. Like, at one point in the ‘90s I got so
>much spam that it blew out my bandwidth limit and I got charged an
>overage, just for receiving handshakes and dropping spam on the
>ground.

Yeah, I used to be in the UUCP maps as well, way back in the olden days.

>I tried being aggressively OCD about RFC compliance and found I was
>missing mail I actually needed. Like, from lawyers and similar stuff
>that had real world consequences.

I simply tell those people that they either (a) fix their systems or (b) use 
snail-mail.  Takes care of the problem entirely.

>So I went back to using a combination of multiple layers of filters
>and a greylist front end. Oh, and blocking all of China and
>Argentina.

I use a couple of blacklists.  Oftentimes the same malefactor that happens to 
be sending spam is also running ssh probes and other miscreant malicious crap.  
Getting blacklisted by me means you are blacklisted and get dead air.  I do 
return appropriate ICMP "administratively denied" notifications, but other than 
that, they can bugger off entirely.

>Still get a lot of spam that Apple Mail’s Bayesian filter takes care
>of. Mostly.

I do not let the stuff in in the first place, so there is nothing much to 
filter.  This makes it much easier.

>Still too many false positives. I switched to gmail for mail I
>actually really needed to get. I was spending too much lifetime
>dealing with mail issues.

And that is the major difference I suppose.  I consider that there is no such 
thing as a "false positive".  Either the sending MTA is a properly configured 
RFC compliant Internet host with a properly configured MTA, or I do not want to 
accept communications from it.  If it is properly configured *AND* it is not on 
any of the blacklists that I use (only some of which are spam related -- as I 
said there is a huge cross-over between dirty spammers and dirty crackers) then 
I will accept the message.  Otherwise, not only do they not get to send 
messages, they will likely be "administratively prohibited" from communicating 
at all on any port for any reason whatsoever.  And that is THEIR problem to 
address, not mine.

Just as there is a modern propensity for the re-labelling of "impersonation" as 
"identity theft" in order to lay blame and inconvenience on the person 
impersonated instead of where it belongs (as a natural consequence of the law) 
on the "impersonator" and the relying party who made the "mistake", pretending 
that the recipient is somehow required to receive, read and obey whatever some 
idiot sends is an inversion of the natural order of things and is delusional 
(on the part of both parties).

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Re: [sqlite] Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

2017-11-21 Thread Drago, William @ CSG - NARDA-MITEQ

> I really need to come up with an alternative to the mailing list.
> Perhaps some kind of forum system.  Suggestions are welcomed.
> --
> D. Richard Hipp
> d...@sqlite.org

Please, not a forum. The email list is instant, dynamic, and convenient. I 
don't think checking into a forum to stay current with the brisk activity here 
is very practical or appealing.

--
Bill Drago
Staff Engineer
L3 Narda-MITEQ
435 Moreland Road
Hauppauge, NY 11788
631-272-5947 / william.dr...@l3t.com
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email and any attachments are for the sole use of 
the intended recipient and may contain material that is proprietary, 
confidential, privileged or otherwise legally protected or restricted under 
applicable government laws. Any review, disclosure, distributing or other use 
without expressed permission of the sender is strictly prohibited. If you are 
not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies 
without reading, printing, or saving.

Beginning April 1, 2018, L3 Technologies, Inc. will discontinue the use of all 
@L-3Com.com email addresses. To ensure delivery of your messages to this 
recipient, please update your records to use william.dr...@l3t.com.
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Re: [sqlite] Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

On 11/21/17, 9:59 AM, "sqlite-users on behalf of Keith Medcalf" 

wrote:
> If you run an RFC complaint MTA then there is really very little problem with 
> SPAM at all -- I have many connections per second rejected for RFC 
> non-compliance -- and get maybe 3 SPAM messages per day, all of which 
> originate from the crappy Johhny-cum-lately freemail systems

So. taronga.com is a high profile spam target thanks to my using it for Usenet 
posts for years. Like, at one point in the ‘90s I got so much spam that it blew 
out my bandwidth limit and I got charged an overage, just for receiving 
handshakes and dropping spam on the ground.

I tried being aggressively OCD about RFC compliance and found I was missing 
mail I actually needed. Like, from lawyers and similar stuff that had real 
world consequences.

So I went back to using a combination of multiple layers of filters and a 
greylist front end. Oh, and blocking all of China and Argentina.

Still get a lot of spam that Apple Mail’s Bayesian filter takes care of. Mostly.

Still too many false positives. I switched to gmail for mail I actually really 
needed to get. I was spending too much lifetime dealing with mail issues.

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Re: [sqlite] Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

2017-11-21 Thread Pierpaolo Bernardi

Il giorno 21 novembre 2017, alle ore 15:30, Richard Hipp  ha 
scritto:

>On 11/21/17, Paul Sanderson  wrote:
>> Coincidence!  I have just been in my gmail folder marking a load of SQLite
>> email as 'not spam'
>I've been seeing mailing list emails go to spam for a while now.
>Nothing has changed with MailMan.  I think what we are seeing is the
>beginning of the end of email as a viable communication medium.
>I really need to come up with an alternative to the mailing list.
>Perhaps some kind of forum system.  Suggestions are welcomed.

I suggest that people check their spam folder daily. It takes a few seconds to 
manually approve the few false positives.

Any web based thing otoh is a crawling horror which will destroy any usefulness 
in the whole thing. And they require an active connection which is not always 
available.

IMHO

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Re: [sqlite] Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM


If by JS you mean JavaScript, then this is a non-starter.  Many people (myself 
included) do not permit remote code to be executed on our computers.


---
The fact that there's a Highway to Hell but only a Stairway to Heaven says a 
lot about anticipated traffic volume.


>-Original Message-
>From: sqlite-users [mailto:sqlite-users-
>boun...@mailinglists.sqlite.org] On Behalf Of Wout Mertens
>Sent: Tuesday, 21 November, 2017 08:26
>To: SQLite mailing list
>Subject: Re: [sqlite] Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM
>
>Discourse has a mailing-list mode you can enable, which will send you
>all
>posts (I presume, I never tried it)
>
>The default setup sends you interesting new topics at an interval of
>your
>choosing.
>
>What I like very much about Discourse:
>
>   - great engagement
>   - easy following of only those topics that interest you
>   - great way to have a live archive of posts
>   - no spam. The JS hoops spammers have to jump through are a great
>   deterrent so far.
>
>I must say that I can't really remember a google search resulting in
>a post
>on a Discourse forum. I wonder if it has bad googlability or if other
>sources are deemed better by Google, or if Discourse is simply not
>very
>popular.
>
>On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 4:16 PM Stephen Chrzanowski
><pontia...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>> I love the email methodology, and I'd honestly be sad to see it go.
>But if
>> GMail is causing the mischaracterization of the mail, maybe just a
>note on
>> the sqlite.org home page that directs people on how to whitelist
>the
>> mailing list?
>>
>> I'm indifferent to the forum idea, but, so long the forum software
>will
>> give me notifications of ALL entries, with the full content of the
>post.
>> That way, I can decide if I want to jump on the forum and
>contribute, or
>> ask.
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 9:52 AM, Dominique Devienne
><ddevie...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > But many people still prefer email. I doubt something else would
>be as
>> > convenient.
>> >
>> >
>> ___
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>> http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-
>users
>>
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Re: [sqlite] Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

In my opinion it is the beginning of the end of crappy freemail providers and 
their overzealous spam filtering.  And it is about time.  

If you run an RFC complaint MTA then there is really very little problem with 
SPAM at all -- I have many connections per second rejected for RFC 
non-compliance -- and get maybe 3 SPAM messages per day, all of which originate 
from the crappy Johhny-cum-lately freemail systems.  It is just that the 
Johhny-cum-lately's (freemail, telco's, cableco's) have no idea how to run RFC 
compliant Internet Hosts and MTA's that have issues.  Plus those that insist on 
being RFC non-compliant so they can communicate with the Johhny-cum-lately 
non-RFC compliant hosts and MTA's.  

A far better approach is to remain RFC compliant and if someone you want to 
communicate with insists on not being an RFC compliant Internet host and MTA, 
then tell them to bugger off and use old fashioned snail-mail that does not 
require a properly configured host connected to the Internet.

---
The fact that there's a Highway to Hell but only a Stairway to Heaven says a 
lot about anticipated traffic volume.

>-Original Message-
>From: sqlite-users [mailto:sqlite-users-
>boun...@mailinglists.sqlite.org] On Behalf Of Richard Hipp
>Sent: Tuesday, 21 November, 2017 07:31
>To: SQLite mailing list
>Subject: Re: [sqlite] Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM
>
>On 11/21/17, Paul Sanderson <sandersonforens...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Coincidence!  I have just been in my gmail folder marking a load of
>SQLite
>> email as 'not spam'
>
>I've been seeing mailing list emails go to spam for a while now.
>Nothing has changed with MailMan.  I think what we are seeing is the
>beginning of the end of email as a viable communication medium.
>
>I really need to come up with an alternative to the mailing list.
>Perhaps some kind of forum system.  Suggestions are welcomed.
>--
>D. Richard Hipp
>d...@sqlite.org
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Re: [sqlite] Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

2017-11-21 Thread J. King

I greatly prefer e-mail, too. It's a shame mailing lists run afoul of SPF and 
usually DKIM, and doubly so that ARC is unlikely to be of much help. 

I abhor Discourse, so it's depressing for me that it's so popular. Alas...

On November 21, 2017 10:16:24 AM EST, Stephen Chrzanowski  
wrote:
>I love the email methodology, and I'd honestly be sad to see it go. 
>But if
>GMail is causing the mischaracterization of the mail, maybe just a note
>on
>the sqlite.org home page that directs people on how to whitelist the
>mailing list?
>
>I'm indifferent to the forum idea, but, so long the forum software will
>give me notifications of ALL entries, with the full content of the
>post.
>That way, I can decide if I want to jump on the forum and contribute,
>or
>ask.
>
>On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 9:52 AM, Dominique Devienne
>
>wrote:
>
>>
>> But many people still prefer email. I doubt something else would be
>as
>> convenient.
>>
>>
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-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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Re: [sqlite] Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

2017-11-21 Thread Wout Mertens

Discourse has a mailing-list mode you can enable, which will send you all
posts (I presume, I never tried it)

The default setup sends you interesting new topics at an interval of your
choosing.

What I like very much about Discourse:

   - great engagement
   - easy following of only those topics that interest you
   - great way to have a live archive of posts
   - no spam. The JS hoops spammers have to jump through are a great
   deterrent so far.

I must say that I can't really remember a google search resulting in a post
on a Discourse forum. I wonder if it has bad googlability or if other
sources are deemed better by Google, or if Discourse is simply not very
popular.

On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 4:16 PM Stephen Chrzanowski 
wrote:

> I love the email methodology, and I'd honestly be sad to see it go.  But if
> GMail is causing the mischaracterization of the mail, maybe just a note on
> the sqlite.org home page that directs people on how to whitelist the
> mailing list?
>
> I'm indifferent to the forum idea, but, so long the forum software will
> give me notifications of ALL entries, with the full content of the post.
> That way, I can decide if I want to jump on the forum and contribute, or
> ask.
>
> On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 9:52 AM, Dominique Devienne 
> wrote:
>
> >
> > But many people still prefer email. I doubt something else would be as
> > convenient.
> >
> >
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Re: [sqlite] Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

I love the email methodology, and I'd honestly be sad to see it go.  But if
GMail is causing the mischaracterization of the mail, maybe just a note on
the sqlite.org home page that directs people on how to whitelist the
mailing list?

I'm indifferent to the forum idea, but, so long the forum software will
give me notifications of ALL entries, with the full content of the post.
That way, I can decide if I want to jump on the forum and contribute, or
ask.

On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 9:52 AM, Dominique Devienne 
wrote:

>
> But many people still prefer email. I doubt something else would be as
> convenient.
>
>
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Re: [sqlite] Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

On 11/21/17, 8:52 AM, "sqlite-users on behalf of Dominique Devienne" 
 
wrote:
> After re-inventing database and source-control, forum software next? :) I 
> have no doubt it would be lean, fast, SQLite-based, in C (and/or TCL).

Plus XMPP and NNTP/NNRPD interfaces, and a PERFECT bidirectional email gateway 
that maintains BOTH kinds of threading.
 

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Re: [sqlite] Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

2017-11-21 Thread Dominique Devienne

On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 3:30 PM, Richard Hipp  wrote:

> On 11/21/17, Paul Sanderson  wrote:
> > Coincidence!  I have just been in my gmail folder marking a load of
> SQLite
> > email as 'not spam'
>
> I've been seeing mailing list emails go to spam for a while now.
> Nothing has changed with MailMan.  I think what we are seeing is the
> beginning of the end of email as a viable communication medium.
>

I really need to come up with an alternative to the mailing list.
> Perhaps some kind of forum system.  Suggestions are welcomed.
>

After re-inventing database and source-control, forum software next? :)
I have no doubt it would be lean, fast, SQLite-based, in C (and/or TCL).
Fossile's web-ui is almost like a forum already in fact.

But many people still prefer email. I doubt something else would be as
convenient.

I've used a local install of https://www.discourse.org/ at work, and it's
nice,
with some similarities to StackOverflow for editing, no surprise given Jeff
Atwood's involvement. OpenSource. But I suspect it's not "lite" enough for
you Richard :) Plus it's probably not SQLite based, which is just silly!

Joking apart, I can live with the occasional GMail mischaracterization of
SPAM.
Glad to hear it's not related to a recent MailMan config change. Case
closed, --DD
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Re: [sqlite] Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

2017-11-21 Thread Simon Slavin

On 21 Nov 2017, at 2:30pm, Richard Hipp  wrote:

> I really need to come up with an alternative to the mailing list.
> Perhaps some kind of forum system.  Suggestions are welcomed.

If we’re to end up with a chat-based system then I’d prefer Discord.

I can’t recommend a web-based forum system right now.  I’ve seen a lot of them 
and don’t find any superior to any other.  Or, in fact, any good at all.

Simon.

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Re: [sqlite] Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM