Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Petite Abeille]

> On Oct 26, 2018, at 3:21 PM, Thomas Kurz  wrote:
> 
>> What'da ya think?
> 
> That's a great idea. I've already had some concerns that SQLite development 
> might cease now. Hoping for great new features in the next release :-)

MERGE! :D

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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Thomas Kurz]

> What'da ya think?

That's a great idea. I've already had some concerns that SQLite development 
might cease now. Hoping for great new features in the next release :-)

-- 
D. Richard Hipp
d...@sqlite.org
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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Richard Hipp]

Hey, Y'all:

Thanks for all the input.  But we've strayed off-topic.  In keeping
with both the Code of Conduct and the Code of Ethics, maybe its time
we shut this discussion down (or move it to some other venue) and get
back to talking about the worlds greatest embedded database.  What'da
ya think?

-- 
D. Richard Hipp
d...@sqlite.org
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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Philip Warner]

On 26/10/2018 11:02 PM, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:


On 26/10/2018 14:12, Philip Warner wrote:
I agree with the humour. As a satirical statement on the horrors of building 
a good CoC/CoE it is quite effective.


But...if it is a CoC/E, then I think it would be beneficial to have one that 
many people won't start by knowingly and deliberately ignoring large chunks, 
and broadly disagreeing with even more, and laughing at the rest.


Of course, after all, that's how christianity developed, by picking and 
choosing the various bits of whatever else was around that were in tune with 
the various prejudices and predilections of those involved.


Although the "laughing at the rest" was more often "kill them, and the horses 
they rode in on."


Lol. Love it. Perhaps that should be the disclaimer:

Code of Conduct

...etc...

TL;DR: to put this in historical context, given it's broad lack of 
applicability, it has in large part often reduced to "kill them, and the horses 
they rode in on". YMMV.



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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Gary R. Schmidt]

On 26/10/2018 14:12, Philip Warner wrote:

On 25/10/2018 9:59 PM, Mike King wrote:


I’m a good atheist but I love the CoC. Not bothered by the religious bits
but I get the sentiment. I guess it appeals to my British sense of irony
and odd sense of humour :)


I agree with the humour. As a satirical statement on the horrors of 
building a good CoC/CoE it is quite effective.


But...if it is a CoC/E, then I think it would be beneficial to have one 
that many people won't start by knowingly and deliberately ignoring 
large chunks, and broadly disagreeing with even more, and laughing at 
the rest.
Of course, after all, that's how christianity developed, by picking and 
choosing the various bits of whatever else was around that were in tune 
with the various prejudices and predilections of those involved.


Although the "laughing at the rest" was more often "kill them, and the 
horses they rode in on."


Cheers,
GaryB-)
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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Keith Medcalf]

On Friday, 26 October, 2018 03:57, Petite Abeille  
wrote:

>> On Oct 26, 2018, at 5:12 AM, Philip Warner  >wrote:

>> knowingly and deliberately ignoring large chunks, and broadly
>> disagreeing with even more, and laughing at the rest.

> Bah… Everything Is Amazing And Nobody Is Happy:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUBtKNzoKZ4

Hilarious!  And I remember the days when you had to book long distance calls in 
advance so that you could be scheduled onto the transatlantic cable, and the 
call would be completed by operators calling station to station hop by hop.  
Hello London?  This is Toronto calling ... are we reaching?

---
The fact that there's a Highway to Hell but only a Stairway to Heaven says a 
lot about anticipated traffic volume.





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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Petite Abeille]

> On Oct 26, 2018, at 5:12 AM, Philip Warner  wrote:
> 
> knowingly and deliberately ignoring large chunks, and broadly disagreeing 
> with even more, and laughing at the rest.

Bah… Everything Is Amazing And Nobody Is Happy: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUBtKNzoKZ4

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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Philip Warner]

On 25/10/2018 9:59 PM, Mike King wrote:


I’m a good atheist but I love the CoC. Not bothered by the religious bits
but I get the sentiment. I guess it appeals to my British sense of irony
and odd sense of humour :)


I agree with the humour. As a satirical statement on the horrors of building a 
good CoC/CoE it is quite effective.


But...if it is a CoC/E, then I think it would be beneficial to have one that 
many people won't start by knowingly and deliberately ignoring large chunks, and 
broadly disagreeing with even more, and laughing at the rest.

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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Petite Abeille]

> On Oct 25, 2018, at 1:20 PM, Mike King  wrote:
> 
> I’m more a Mr Creosote kind of guy. Wafer thin mint anybody? :)

Please bring your own bucket. This is SQL*lite*. :P

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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Mike King]

I’m more a Mr Creosote kind of guy. Wafer thin mint anybody? :)

On Thu, 25 Oct 2018 at 12:08, Petite Abeille 
wrote:

>
>
> > On Oct 25, 2018, at 12:59 PM, Mike King  wrote:
> >
> > The beer is bloody good and very strong.
>
> "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."
> — Benjamin Franklin, allegedly
>
> https://quoteinvestigator.com/2016/06/24/beer-wine/
>
> > Also, I’m happy to report I didn’t go up in flames when I went there and
> purchased a case :)
>
> Where is the Rabbit of Caerbannog when needed?
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit_of_Caerbannog
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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Petite Abeille]

> On Oct 25, 2018, at 12:59 PM, Mike King  wrote:
> 
> The beer is bloody good and very strong.

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."
— Benjamin Franklin, allegedly

https://quoteinvestigator.com/2016/06/24/beer-wine/

> Also, I’m happy to report I didn’t go up in flames when I went there and 
> purchased a case :)

Where is the Rabbit of Caerbannog when needed?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit_of_Caerbannog
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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Mike King]

I’m a good atheist but I love the CoC. Not bothered by the religious bits
but I get the sentiment. I guess it appeals to my British sense of irony
and odd sense of humour :)

As for the Trappist beer our local Monastery (St Bernards, Whitwick) has
just started the first trappist brewery in the uk. The beer is bloody good
and very strong. Also, I’m happy to report I didn’t go up in flames when I
went there and purchased a case :)

Cheers (hic!)

Mike

On Thu, 25 Oct 2018 at 11:33, Petite Abeille 
wrote:

>
>
> > On Oct 25, 2018, at 8:33 AM, Philip Warner  wrote:
> >
> >> The second exhortation tells us that that's not enough, and we also
> have a duty to maximise pleasure.
> >
> > lol, good point. Quite the opposite of monkish orders.
>
> And yet…
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trappist_beer
>
> Let SQLite be the Trappist beer of software :D
>
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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Petite Abeille]

> On Oct 25, 2018, at 8:33 AM, Philip Warner  wrote:
> 
>> The second exhortation tells us that that's not enough, and we also have a 
>> duty to maximise pleasure.
> 
> lol, good point. Quite the opposite of monkish orders.

And yet… 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trappist_beer

Let SQLite be the Trappist beer of software :D

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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Philip Warner]

On 25/10/2018 11:06 AM, Simon Slavin wrote:


The second exhortation tells us that that's not enough, and we also have a duty 
to maximise pleasure.


lol, good point. Quite the opposite of monkish orders.
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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Simon Slavin]

On 25 Oct 2018, at 12:16am, Philip Warner  wrote:

> t leads to the question: have you ever seen one that works better than, say, 
> "Don't be an arsehole/dick/evil"? In most jurisdictions sexual harassment, 
> murder etc are already illegal...so repeating them in a CoE/C seems redundant.

The question should be answered.  It took this list around two weeks to half -- 
the boring half -- of the Bill and Ted standard of conduct.  I am disappointed. 
 Bill and Ted's masterful code of conduct consisted of two interlaced parts:

A) Be excellent to each other.
B) Party on, dudes !

Part (A) can be "Don't be evil" or "Don't be an asshole." or "Do unto others as 
you would have them do to you.".  I'll take them all as equivalents.

But (B) is essential, and it has been left out.  Without (B) there is no reason 
to seek out beauty or fun, or to (rendering unto others …) encourage others to 
do so.  Without (B) you can live a formal, sterile, joyless life and call it 
worthwhile.  I am disappointed.  We might as well all be replaced by robots.

The second exhortation tells us that that's not enough, and we also have a duty 
to maximise pleasure.  Find the fun.  If you can't find fun, make some.  And 
trying to do (B) without violating (A) helps keep life interesting.

Simon.
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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Philip Warner]

On 25/10/2018 2:17 AM, Jens Alfke wrote:


Vague blanket statements like “Don’t be evil” or “Be excellent to each other” 
don’t work (here or anywhere else.)


This is a good point. But it leads to the question: have you ever seen one that 
works better than, say, "Don't be an arsehole/dick/evil"? In most jurisdictions 
sexual harassment, murder etc are already illegal...so repeating them in a CoE/C 
seems redundant.


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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Philip Warner]

On 25/10/2018 9:11 AM, Richard Hipp wrote:

If you read the original CoC closely, you will find things that
required me to change it.  We have:

   18. Be a help in times of trouble
   19. Console the sorrowing
   31. Love your enemies
   34. Be not proud
   71. Make peace with your adversary before the sun sets


lol...hoist and petard etc. Nice change. You broke the ethics again tho...you 
made me laugh: "Speak no useless words or words that move to laughter".


I'm glad it says "follow spirit of The Rule to the best of their ability" since 
it means I can interpret it as I like, and ignore anything I am unable to agree 
with. Not sure that's ideal for any ethical code, but it means I can at least 
ignore all the god-stuff, masochism, starving, alcohol prohibition etc. And I do 
love a good grudge, so I'll hang on to my best ones. And my addiction to wine. 
The media "keep death daily before your eyes", so I can ignore that one as well. 
I don't have a spiritual mentor, so I guess I will just talk to my dogs 
morewhich leads me to a possibility...replace "God" with "Dog"...that fixes 
a few more of them.



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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Wout Mertens]

See, this is where I miss being able to non-intrusively add a heart emoji
to your post. Here it is anyway: ❤

Wout.

On Thu, Oct 25, 2018, 12:11 AM Richard Hipp  wrote:

> On 10/24/18, Michael Falconer  wrote:
> >
> > it's all gone...while my devout atheism is generally pleased my
> > somewhat annoying 'free will, free speech ' ethic has rust on it!
> Richard,
> > it's your joint and it's such a good place, friendly and mostly
> respectful.
> > My atheism was NOT offended in any way by all that God speak and I do
> > support the notion that you are perfectly entitled to have a CoC and for
> it
> > to take whatever form you feel appropriate. But I'm an honest guy and
> will
> > unsub if my un-godliness is just totally unacceptable, but I'll still be
> > using SQLite!
> >
>
> My original CoC is still there.  It just changed its filename.
> https://sqlite.org/codeofethics.html
>
> If you read the original CoC closely, you will find things that
> required me to change it.  We have:
>
>   18. Be a help in times of trouble
>   19. Console the sorrowing
>   31. Love your enemies
>   34. Be not proud
>   71. Make peace with your adversary before the sun sets
>
> Regardless of whether they are right or wrong, some people were
> troubled with the Benedictine Rule being called a "Code of Conduct".
> It turns out that the term "Code of Conduct" has special significance
> to some communities, and if you misuse the term, it causes emotional
> distress. If I can relieve that sorrow without compromising my own
> values, isn't it right to do so?  It took me several days and
> countless hours reading enraged tweets to figure this out, but in the
> end, the solution was as simple as renaming the offensive "Code of
> Conduct" to "Code of Ethics", thus avoiding the
> name-of-special-significance, then drop in a pre-packaged CoC in place
> of the one that became the CoE, and all is well.  Took less than 5
> minutes once I figured out what to do.  Who know it was that easy?
>
> --
> D. Richard Hipp
> d...@sqlite.org
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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Richard Hipp]

On 10/24/18, Michael Falconer  wrote:
>
> it's all gone...while my devout atheism is generally pleased my
> somewhat annoying 'free will, free speech ' ethic has rust on it! Richard,
> it's your joint and it's such a good place, friendly and mostly respectful.
> My atheism was NOT offended in any way by all that God speak and I do
> support the notion that you are perfectly entitled to have a CoC and for it
> to take whatever form you feel appropriate. But I'm an honest guy and will
> unsub if my un-godliness is just totally unacceptable, but I'll still be
> using SQLite!
>

My original CoC is still there.  It just changed its filename.
https://sqlite.org/codeofethics.html

If you read the original CoC closely, you will find things that
required me to change it.  We have:

  18. Be a help in times of trouble
  19. Console the sorrowing
  31. Love your enemies
  34. Be not proud
  71. Make peace with your adversary before the sun sets

Regardless of whether they are right or wrong, some people were
troubled with the Benedictine Rule being called a "Code of Conduct".
It turns out that the term "Code of Conduct" has special significance
to some communities, and if you misuse the term, it causes emotional
distress. If I can relieve that sorrow without compromising my own
values, isn't it right to do so?  It took me several days and
countless hours reading enraged tweets to figure this out, but in the
end, the solution was as simple as renaming the offensive "Code of
Conduct" to "Code of Ethics", thus avoiding the
name-of-special-significance, then drop in a pre-packaged CoC in place
of the one that became the CoE, and all is well.  Took less than 5
minutes once I figured out what to do.  Who know it was that easy?

-- 
D. Richard Hipp
d...@sqlite.org
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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Michael Falconer]

Oh dear,

it's all gone...while my devout atheism is generally pleased my
somewhat annoying 'free will, free speech ' ethic has rust on it! Richard,
it's your joint and it's such a good place, friendly and mostly respectful.
My atheism was NOT offended in any way by all that God speak and I do
support the notion that you are perfectly entitled to have a CoC and for it
to take whatever form you feel appropriate. But I'm an honest guy and will
unsub if my un-godliness is just totally unacceptable, but I'll still be
using SQLite!

On Thu, 25 Oct 2018 at 06:10, Mantas Gridinas  wrote:

> Or a capture card.
>
> On Wed, Oct 24, 2018, 21:28 Brian Chrzanowski  wrote:
>
> > Probably a virtual machine.
> >
> > On Wed, Oct 24, 2018, 2:27 PM R Smith  wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > On 2018/10/24 8:19 PM, Stephen Chrzanowski wrote:
> > > > ..// without users consent. ... unlike...
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://www.extremetech.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Windows10-BSOD-640x353.jpg
> > >
> > > How did you take a screenshot while Windows was hanging/recovering?
> > >
> > > I call foul!
> > >
> > > (Or is that a new Windows 10 feature?)
> > >
> > >
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-- 
Regards,
 Michael.j.Falconer.
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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Jonathan Moules]

The one I usually see as being referred to as being "political" is the 
Contributor Covenant - 
https://www.contributor-covenant.org/version/1/4/code-of-conduct


From reading it, while it does have some specifics, it has all the 
exact same problems you're highlighting "Don't be evil" has. Why? 
Because it includes huge loopholes which are extremely subjective and 
based on whoever is interpreting the rules:


"Other conduct which could reasonably be considered inappropriate in a 
professional setting"


"Project maintainers are responsible for clarifying the standards of 
acceptable behavior[sic]"


And more potential retroactive changing of the rules: "Representation of 
a project may be further defined and clarified by project maintainers."


There's also this gem: "The use of sexualized language or imagery and 
unwelcome sexual attention or advances" - so by implication sexual 
attention/advances are fine as long as they're welcome?


While the SQLite CoC definitely fails at the religious inclusiveness 
component, as far as I can see it's better in most other ways. It's 
certainly more specific, there are no giant loopholes, it doesn't stop 
at "unwanted" advances ("chastity" is one of the rules), and with the 
ethos heading at the top, it's clear that it's only really interested in 
keeping things positive rather than going on witchhunts. I still prefer 
"be excellent", but SQLite could do worse, and I say all that as 
egalitarian atheist.



On 2018-10-24 16:17, Jens Alfke wrote:



On Oct 22, 2018, at 10:04 PM, Paul  wrote:

If my opinion has any value, even though being atheist, I prefer this CoC 100 
times over
the CoC that is being currently pushed onto the many open-source communities, 
that was
created by some purple-headed feminist with political motives.

As a purple-headed feminist (yes, literally; got it dyed last week, though the 
color is subtle) I am rolling my eyes at this.
I haven’t see any CoC with political motives being “pushed” to open-source 
communities. The ones I’ve seen basically boil down to Be Excellent Unto One 
Another, similarly to SQLite’s. The difference is that they go into 
_specifics_. And why do they do that? Because of many incidents of 
harassment/discrimination against people of specific minority [in the geek 
community] groups.

Vague blanket statements like “Don’t be evil” or “Be excellent to each other” 
don’t work (here or anywhere else.) *Everyone* believes they’re good, 
*everyone* believes they’re doing good, everyone believes that when they get 
snarky or take action against someone, that it’s because the *other person* 
deserved it, or maybe that it was just in fun and the other person shouldn’t be 
so sensitive. Even the [insert name of horrible group that committed 
atrocities] felt that way.

Since DRH got this CoC from a Christian monastic order, allow me to give an 
example: another order, the Dominicans, instigated and led some rather horrific 
acts of mass torture, murder and ethnic cleansing over the centuries (e.g. the 
Spanish Inquisition.) I’m sure that Savonarola felt himself to be a good person 
who was doing the right thing. (Of course, the same goes for horrifically evil 
people who were devout followers of other religions, and of course atheists. 
Only Disney villains actually believe they’re evil.)

Being specific is important. If you think it’s some kind of crazy political 
extremism to prohibit harassment based on race, religion, gender or sexual 
orientation, I can’t help you there, but just try to keep in mind that the 
majority of people do think so and have asked that you not do it. At least they 
have on other sites; I can’t tell about this one, because the original author 
of the CoC certainly felt it was OK, and I don’t know what DRH’s motives were 
for reproducing his words verbatim.

—Jens
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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Mantas Gridinas]

Or a capture card.

On Wed, Oct 24, 2018, 21:28 Brian Chrzanowski  Probably a virtual machine.
>
> On Wed, Oct 24, 2018, 2:27 PM R Smith  wrote:
>
> >
> > On 2018/10/24 8:19 PM, Stephen Chrzanowski wrote:
> > > ..// without users consent. ... unlike...
> > >
> >
> https://www.extremetech.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Windows10-BSOD-640x353.jpg
> >
> > How did you take a screenshot while Windows was hanging/recovering?
> >
> > I call foul!
> >
> > (Or is that a new Windows 10 feature?)
> >
> >
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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Brian Chrzanowski]

Probably a virtual machine.

On Wed, Oct 24, 2018, 2:27 PM R Smith  wrote:

>
> On 2018/10/24 8:19 PM, Stephen Chrzanowski wrote:
> > ..// without users consent. ... unlike...
> >
> https://www.extremetech.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Windows10-BSOD-640x353.jpg
>
> How did you take a screenshot while Windows was hanging/recovering?
>
> I call foul!
>
> (Or is that a new Windows 10 feature?)
>
>
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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[R Smith]

On 2018/10/24 8:19 PM, Stephen Chrzanowski wrote:

..// without users consent. ... unlike...
https://www.extremetech.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Windows10-BSOD-640x353.jpg


How did you take a screenshot while Windows was hanging/recovering?

I call foul!

(Or is that a new Windows 10 feature?)


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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Stephen Chrzanowski]

I like this.

If I were to use this (And I don't expect I'll ever have to since I
typically write just for me) the only addition I'd make to this is about
the reporting.

From a users perspective, if the utility has something to report "home"
with (lets say crash reports), it'd have to be ABUNDANTLY clear and written
on the tin that the software has the capability to do so, and CLEARLY give
the option to view exactly what is being transmitted, and never in an
automated way without users consent. ... unlike...
https://www.extremetech.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Windows10-BSOD-640x353.jpg


On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 1:28 PM dmp  wrote:

> Code Of Conduct, misplaced disposition on the individuals of
> an organization rather than the results of their work on
> intent.
>
> I have had a simple statement with my open source software
> downloads for years.
>
> "Dandy Made Productions would like to assure individuals that
>  any applications downloaded from this site are free from any
>  malicious code as so created. Great pride is taken in trying
>  to create ethical software that does not knowingly modify, or
>  change files or a system's configuration beyond the user's
>  request. In addition no software downloaded from this site
>  performs any type of monitoring or reporting on the user's
>  behavior in use of said application. Every reasonable attempt
>  is made to maintain the integrity of the downloaded software
>  packages at this site."
>
> Dana M. Proctor
>
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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[dmp]

Code Of Conduct, misplaced disposition on the individuals of
an organization rather than the results of their work on
intent.

I have had a simple statement with my open source software
downloads for years.

"Dandy Made Productions would like to assure individuals that
 any applications downloaded from this site are free from any
 malicious code as so created. Great pride is taken in trying
 to create ethical software that does not knowingly modify, or
 change files or a system's configuration beyond the user's
 request. In addition no software downloaded from this site
 performs any type of monitoring or reporting on the user's
 behavior in use of said application. Every reasonable attempt
 is made to maintain the integrity of the downloaded software
 packages at this site."

Dana M. Proctor

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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Kevin Youren]

Richard,

thank you for your further explanation of your team's Code of Conduct.

After a bit of research on the Internet, everything makes sense.

Well done.

regs,

Kev



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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Jens Alfke]

> On Oct 22, 2018, at 10:04 PM, Paul  wrote:
> 
> If my opinion has any value, even though being atheist, I prefer this CoC 100 
> times over
> the CoC that is being currently pushed onto the many open-source communities, 
> that was
> created by some purple-headed feminist with political motives. 

As a purple-headed feminist (yes, literally; got it dyed last week, though the 
color is subtle) I am rolling my eyes at this.
I haven’t see any CoC with political motives being “pushed” to open-source 
communities. The ones I’ve seen basically boil down to Be Excellent Unto One 
Another, similarly to SQLite’s. The difference is that they go into 
_specifics_. And why do they do that? Because of many incidents of 
harassment/discrimination against people of specific minority [in the geek 
community] groups.

Vague blanket statements like “Don’t be evil” or “Be excellent to each other” 
don’t work (here or anywhere else.) *Everyone* believes they’re good, 
*everyone* believes they’re doing good, everyone believes that when they get 
snarky or take action against someone, that it’s because the *other person* 
deserved it, or maybe that it was just in fun and the other person shouldn’t be 
so sensitive. Even the [insert name of horrible group that committed 
atrocities] felt that way.

Since DRH got this CoC from a Christian monastic order, allow me to give an 
example: another order, the Dominicans, instigated and led some rather horrific 
acts of mass torture, murder and ethnic cleansing over the centuries (e.g. the 
Spanish Inquisition.) I’m sure that Savonarola felt himself to be a good person 
who was doing the right thing. (Of course, the same goes for horrifically evil 
people who were devout followers of other religions, and of course atheists. 
Only Disney villains actually believe they’re evil.)

Being specific is important. If you think it’s some kind of crazy political 
extremism to prohibit harassment based on race, religion, gender or sexual 
orientation, I can’t help you there, but just try to keep in mind that the 
majority of people do think so and have asked that you not do it. At least they 
have on other sites; I can’t tell about this one, because the original author 
of the CoC certainly felt it was OK, and I don’t know what DRH’s motives were 
for reproducing his words verbatim.

—Jens
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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Wout Mertens]

On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 1:55 PM Jan Danielsson 
wrote:

> > Lets not pretend the rules are from English origin please. --DD
>
>I don't think that was what Wout meant.  Read "Ye Olde English" as
> "Aesthetically 'old'", not "use the original".  Point was merely to give
> some visual clues to the reader that "the original is very old", since
> it's clear a lot of people aren't reading the first part of the
> document.  And again, English is a good choice to reach as many as
> possible.
>

Indeed.

Suppose drh would have referred to some ancient Buddhist or Hindu document,
then I think there wouldn't be as much complaining. In early hacker
culture, there is much referencing to koans

The Christian outlook is however very familiar to most readers here, and
has connotations of bible-thumpers and meddling. If I wanted to buy an
ice-cream and some angry bible-belter would only sell it if I promise to
repent and whatnot, I would certainly forgo the purchase. I think this is
what some people are imagining.

Adding more easy-to-grasp context to the CoC would help IMHO.

Wout.
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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Jan Danielsson]

On 2018-10-24 13:42, Dominique Devienne wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 1:10 PM Wout Mertens  wrote:
>> [...] write the rules in Ye Olde English. [..]
> 
> He was "Italian", and more likely to write in Latin, not English, old or
> new.
> The SQLite doc is English only because that's DRH native tong (I assume).

   Minor point, but I don't think the English translation is used merely
because of drh's native tongue; it also happens to be a good choice to
use English on the Internet so as many people as possible can read it.

> Lets not pretend the rules are from English origin please. --DD

   I don't think that was what Wout meant.  Read "Ye Olde English" as
"Aesthetically 'old'", not "use the original".  Point was merely to give
some visual clues to the reader that "the original is very old", since
it's clear a lot of people aren't reading the first part of the
document.  And again, English is a good choice to reach as many as possible.

-- 
Kind Regards,
Jan
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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Dominique Devienne]

On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 1:10 PM Wout Mertens  wrote:

> [...] write the rules in Ye Olde English. [..]
>

He was "Italian", and more likely to write in Latin, not English, old or
new.
The SQLite doc is English only because that's DRH native tong (I assume).
Lets not pretend the rules are from English origin please. --DD
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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Chris Locke]

> On the other hand, I am open to suggestions on how to express
> those values in a way that modern twitter-ites can better understand

Probably via selfie, with a duckface, together with your evening meal in
the background.


On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 4:30 PM Richard Hipp  wrote:

> On 10/22/18, Chris Brody  wrote:
> >> Looks like that happened this morning.
> >> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18273530
> >
> > I saw it coming, tried to warn you guys in private.
>
> There is indeed a reactionary hate mob forming on twitter.  But most
> of the thoughtful commentators have been supportive, even if they
> disagree with the particulars of our CoC, They total get that we are
> not being exclusive, but rather setting a standard of behavior for
> participation in the SQLite community.
>
> I have tried to make that point clear in the preface to the CoC, that
> we have no intention of enforcing any particular religious system on
> anybody, and that everyone is welcomed to participate in the community
> regardless of ones religious proclivities.  The only requirement is
> that while participating in the SQLite community, your behavior not be
> in direct conflict with time-tested and centuries-old Christian
> ethics.  Nobody has to adhere to a particular creed.  Merely
> demonstrate professional behavior and all is well.
>
> Many detractors appear to have not read the preface, or if they read
> it, they did not understand it.  This might be because I have not
> explained it well.  The preface has been revised, months ago, to
> address prior criticism from the twitter crowd.  I think the current
> preface is definitely an improvement over what was up at first.  But,
> there might be ways of improving it further.  Thoughtful suggestions
> are welcomed.
>
> So the question then arises:  If strict adherence to the Rule of St.
> Benedict is not required, why even have a CoC?
>
> Several reasons:  First, "professional behavior" is ill-defined.  What
> is professional to some might be unprofessional to others.  The Rule
> attempts to clarify what "professional behavior" means.  When I was
> first trying to figure out what CoC to use (under pressure from
> clients) I also considered secular sources, such as Benjamin
> Franklin's 13 virtues (http://www.thirteenvirtues.com/) but ended up
> going with the Instruments of Good Works from St. Benedict's Rule as
> it provide more examples.
>
> Secondly, I view a CoC not so much as a legal code as a statement of
> the values of the core developers.  All current committers to SQLite
> approved the CoC before I published it.  A single dissent would have
> been sufficient for me to change course.  Taking down the current CoC
> would not change our values, it would merely obscure them.  Isn't it
> better to be open and honest about who we are?
>
> Thirdly, having a written CoC is increasingly a business requirement.
> (I published the currrent CoC after two separate business requested
> copies of our company CoC.  They did not say this was a precondition
> for doing business with them, but there was that implication.) There
> has been an implicit code of conduct for SQLite from the beginning,
> and almost everybody has gotten along with it just fine.  Once or
> twice I have had to privately reprove offenders, but those are rare
> exceptions.  Publishing the current CoC back in February is merely
> making explicit what has been implicit from the beginning.  Nothing
> has really changed.  I did not draw attention to the CoC back in
> February because all I really needed then was a hyperlink to send to
> those who were specifically curious.
>
> So then, why not use a more modern CoC?  I looked at that too, but
> found the so-called "modern" CoCs to be vapid.  They are trendy
> feel-good statements that do not really get to the heart of the matter
> in the way the the ancient Rule does.  By way of analogy, I view
> modern CoCs as being like pop music - selling millions of copies today
> and completely forgotten next year.  I prefer something more enduring,
> like Mozart.
>
> One final reason for publishing the current CoC is as a preemptive
> move, to prevent some future customer from imposing on us one of those
> modern CoCs that I so dislike.
>
> In summary: The values expressed by the current CoC have been
> unchanged for decades and will not be changing as we move forward.  If
> some people are uncomfortable with those values, then I am very sorry
> for them, but that does not change the fact.  On the other hand, I am
> open to suggestions on how to express those values in a way that
> modern twitter-ites can better understand, so do not hesitate to speak
> up if you have a plan.
> --
> D. Richard Hipp
> d...@sqlite.org
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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Wout Mertens]

I think a lot of confusion could have been avoided by putting the text of
the CoC in a separate box, and for extra effect use a parchment paper
background, something like the Papyrus font and write the rules in Ye Olde
English.

Right now it looks as if the rules were written specifically for sqlite and
only by reading the preface closely is it clear what's what.

Wout.


On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 1:01 PM Jonathan Moules <
jonathan-li...@lightpear.com> wrote:

> I think the big problem with this CoC is that it triggers Poe's Law -
> it's impossible to tell if it's serious or a joke without further
> context. I know I spent a good 10 minutes trying to decide either way
> when I first saw this thread a few days ago; now I know from the below
> post that it's serious.
>
> The consequence of this is that a good chunk of the criticism out there
> is because people think it's a joke and treat it accordingly. Some more
> clarification in the opening paragraph on the reasoning behind it and
> it's non-jokey nature - as below - would probably ameliorate this
> component of the CoC's contentiousness.
>
>
> On 2018-10-22 16:29, Richard Hipp wrote:
> > On 10/22/18, Chris Brody  wrote:
> >>> Looks like that happened this morning.
> >>> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18273530
> >> I saw it coming, tried to warn you guys in private.
> > There is indeed a reactionary hate mob forming on twitter.  But most
> > of the thoughtful commentators have been supportive, even if they
> > disagree with the particulars of our CoC, They total get that we are
> > not being exclusive, but rather setting a standard of behavior for
> > participation in the SQLite community.
> >
> > I have tried to make that point clear in the preface to the CoC, that
> > we have no intention of enforcing any particular religious system on
> > anybody, and that everyone is welcomed to participate in the community
> > regardless of ones religious proclivities.  The only requirement is
> > that while participating in the SQLite community, your behavior not be
> > in direct conflict with time-tested and centuries-old Christian
> > ethics.  Nobody has to adhere to a particular creed.  Merely
> > demonstrate professional behavior and all is well.
> >
> > Many detractors appear to have not read the preface, or if they read
> > it, they did not understand it.  This might be because I have not
> > explained it well.  The preface has been revised, months ago, to
> > address prior criticism from the twitter crowd.  I think the current
> > preface is definitely an improvement over what was up at first.  But,
> > there might be ways of improving it further.  Thoughtful suggestions
> > are welcomed.
> >
> > So the question then arises:  If strict adherence to the Rule of St.
> > Benedict is not required, why even have a CoC?
> >
> > Several reasons:  First, "professional behavior" is ill-defined.  What
> > is professional to some might be unprofessional to others.  The Rule
> > attempts to clarify what "professional behavior" means.  When I was
> > first trying to figure out what CoC to use (under pressure from
> > clients) I also considered secular sources, such as Benjamin
> > Franklin's 13 virtues (http://www.thirteenvirtues.com/) but ended up
> > going with the Instruments of Good Works from St. Benedict's Rule as
> > it provide more examples.
> >
> > Secondly, I view a CoC not so much as a legal code as a statement of
> > the values of the core developers.  All current committers to SQLite
> > approved the CoC before I published it.  A single dissent would have
> > been sufficient for me to change course.  Taking down the current CoC
> > would not change our values, it would merely obscure them.  Isn't it
> > better to be open and honest about who we are?
> >
> > Thirdly, having a written CoC is increasingly a business requirement.
> > (I published the currrent CoC after two separate business requested
> > copies of our company CoC.  They did not say this was a precondition
> > for doing business with them, but there was that implication.) There
> > has been an implicit code of conduct for SQLite from the beginning,
> > and almost everybody has gotten along with it just fine.  Once or
> > twice I have had to privately reprove offenders, but those are rare
> > exceptions.  Publishing the current CoC back in February is merely
> > making explicit what has been implicit from the beginning.  Nothing
> > has really changed.  I did not draw attention to the CoC back in
> > February because all I really needed then was a hyperlink to send to
> > those who were specifically curious.
> >
> > So then, why not use a more modern CoC?  I looked at that too, but
> > found the so-called "modern" CoCs to be vapid.  They are trendy
> > feel-good statements that do not really get to the heart of the matter
> > in the way the the ancient Rule does.  By way of analogy, I view
> > modern CoCs as being like pop music - selling millions of copies today
> > and completely forgotten 

Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Jonathan Moules]

I think the big problem with this CoC is that it triggers Poe's Law - 
it's impossible to tell if it's serious or a joke without further 
context. I know I spent a good 10 minutes trying to decide either way 
when I first saw this thread a few days ago; now I know from the below 
post that it's serious.


The consequence of this is that a good chunk of the criticism out there 
is because people think it's a joke and treat it accordingly. Some more 
clarification in the opening paragraph on the reasoning behind it and 
it's non-jokey nature - as below - would probably ameliorate this 
component of the CoC's contentiousness.



On 2018-10-22 16:29, Richard Hipp wrote:

On 10/22/18, Chris Brody  wrote:

Looks like that happened this morning.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18273530

I saw it coming, tried to warn you guys in private.

There is indeed a reactionary hate mob forming on twitter.  But most
of the thoughtful commentators have been supportive, even if they
disagree with the particulars of our CoC, They total get that we are
not being exclusive, but rather setting a standard of behavior for
participation in the SQLite community.

I have tried to make that point clear in the preface to the CoC, that
we have no intention of enforcing any particular religious system on
anybody, and that everyone is welcomed to participate in the community
regardless of ones religious proclivities.  The only requirement is
that while participating in the SQLite community, your behavior not be
in direct conflict with time-tested and centuries-old Christian
ethics.  Nobody has to adhere to a particular creed.  Merely
demonstrate professional behavior and all is well.

Many detractors appear to have not read the preface, or if they read
it, they did not understand it.  This might be because I have not
explained it well.  The preface has been revised, months ago, to
address prior criticism from the twitter crowd.  I think the current
preface is definitely an improvement over what was up at first.  But,
there might be ways of improving it further.  Thoughtful suggestions
are welcomed.

So the question then arises:  If strict adherence to the Rule of St.
Benedict is not required, why even have a CoC?

Several reasons:  First, "professional behavior" is ill-defined.  What
is professional to some might be unprofessional to others.  The Rule
attempts to clarify what "professional behavior" means.  When I was
first trying to figure out what CoC to use (under pressure from
clients) I also considered secular sources, such as Benjamin
Franklin's 13 virtues (http://www.thirteenvirtues.com/) but ended up
going with the Instruments of Good Works from St. Benedict's Rule as
it provide more examples.

Secondly, I view a CoC not so much as a legal code as a statement of
the values of the core developers.  All current committers to SQLite
approved the CoC before I published it.  A single dissent would have
been sufficient for me to change course.  Taking down the current CoC
would not change our values, it would merely obscure them.  Isn't it
better to be open and honest about who we are?

Thirdly, having a written CoC is increasingly a business requirement.
(I published the currrent CoC after two separate business requested
copies of our company CoC.  They did not say this was a precondition
for doing business with them, but there was that implication.) There
has been an implicit code of conduct for SQLite from the beginning,
and almost everybody has gotten along with it just fine.  Once or
twice I have had to privately reprove offenders, but those are rare
exceptions.  Publishing the current CoC back in February is merely
making explicit what has been implicit from the beginning.  Nothing
has really changed.  I did not draw attention to the CoC back in
February because all I really needed then was a hyperlink to send to
those who were specifically curious.

So then, why not use a more modern CoC?  I looked at that too, but
found the so-called "modern" CoCs to be vapid.  They are trendy
feel-good statements that do not really get to the heart of the matter
in the way the the ancient Rule does.  By way of analogy, I view
modern CoCs as being like pop music - selling millions of copies today
and completely forgotten next year.  I prefer something more enduring,
like Mozart.

One final reason for publishing the current CoC is as a preemptive
move, to prevent some future customer from imposing on us one of those
modern CoCs that I so dislike.

In summary: The values expressed by the current CoC have been
unchanged for decades and will not be changing as we move forward.  If
some people are uncomfortable with those values, then I am very sorry
for them, but that does not change the fact.  On the other hand, I am
open to suggestions on how to express those values in a way that
modern twitter-ites can better understand, so do not hesitate to speak
up if you have a plan.



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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Michael Falconer]

>
> I found code of conduct in documentation and I was wondering if it were
> true. Checking the version history it appears to have been added on
> 2018-02-22.
>

Sure that publishing date wasn't 2018-04-01?

On Wed, 24 Oct 2018 at 08:02, Stefan Evert  wrote:

>
> > On 23 Oct 2018, at 07:04, Paul  wrote:
> >
> > If my opinion has any value, even though being atheist, I prefer this
> CoC 100 times over
> > the CoC that is being currently pushed onto the many open-source
> communities, that was
> > created by some purple-headed feminist with political motives. This one
> does not have
> > any hidden intentions (at least, it seems so to me, knowing that you're
> honest person).
>
> Exactly my feelings.
>
> – Stefan
>
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-- 
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 Michael.j.Falconer.
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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Stefan Evert]

> On 23 Oct 2018, at 07:04, Paul  wrote:
> 
> If my opinion has any value, even though being atheist, I prefer this CoC 100 
> times over
> the CoC that is being currently pushed onto the many open-source communities, 
> that was
> created by some purple-headed feminist with political motives. This one does 
> not have 
> any hidden intentions (at least, it seems so to me, knowing that you're 
> honest person).

Exactly my feelings.

– Stefan

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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Philip Warner]

I'm guessing this is an appropriately satirical response to a ridiculous request 
from corporates. If not, then:


- ditch all the religious mumbo-jumbo: 1, 10, 21, 41, 42, 44, 45, 46, 49, 50, 
58, 60, 61, 62, 63, 70, 72


- and probably the masochism: 11

- and probably "Do not swear, for fear of perjuring yourself"...which read like 
"don't commit to anything".


in short...go for something simpler. "Don't be evil" worked pretty well for me, 
not sure why Google dropped it, except of course they presumably planned to be 
evil, or they had difficulty telling the difference any more.





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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Paul]

If my opinion has any value, even though being atheist, I prefer this CoC 100 
times over
the CoC that is being currently pushed onto the many open-source communities, 
that was
created by some purple-headed feminist with political motives. This one does 
not have 
any hidden intentions (at least, it seems so to me, knowing that you're honest 
person).


23 October 2018, 03:47:29, by "Jim Dossey" :

> I think Donald Knuth would approve.
> 
> On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 8:01 PM D Burgess  wrote:
> 
> > > The CoC is fine. Don't change it.
> > +1
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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Jim Dossey]

I think Donald Knuth would approve.

On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 8:01 PM D Burgess  wrote:

> > The CoC is fine. Don't change it.
> +1
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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[D Burgess]

> The CoC is fine. Don't change it.
+1
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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Petite Abeille]

> On Oct 22, 2018, at 11:31 PM, Simon Slavin  wrote:
> 
> And now has reached the summit of Slashdot's front page:

Slow news day. Good night, and good luck.

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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Petite Abeille]

> On Oct 22, 2018, at 10:32 PM, Donald Shepherd  
> wrote:
> 
> It's disappointing

Why so serious? Plus, really, what have the romans ever done for us?
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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Simon Slavin]

On 22 Oct 2018, at 10:05pm, Richard Hipp  wrote:

> It even made TheRegister:
> https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/10/22/sqlite_code_of_conduct/

And now has reached the summit of Slashdot's front page:



Simon.
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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Richard Hipp]

On 10/19/18, Simon Slavin  wrote:
>
> Yeah, that's gonna magically appear on Hacker News within the month.  For
> those curious ...

It even made TheRegister:
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/10/22/sqlite_code_of_conduct/

-- 
D. Richard Hipp
d...@sqlite.org
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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Ned Fleming]

On 2018-10-22 10:29 AM, Richard Hipp wrote:



In summary: The values expressed by the current CoC have been
unchanged for decades and will not be changing as we move forward.  If
some people are uncomfortable with those values, then I am very sorry
for them, but that does not change the fact.  On the other hand, I am
open to suggestions on how to express those values in a way that
modern twitter-ites can better understand, so do not hesitate to speak
up if you have a plan.



The CoC is fine. Don't change it.

We live in a world of offended mobs. The mobs use twitter. Twitter is 
the cloaca of the Internet -- an open, running sewer. The sewer runs to 
a cesspool and, as in any cesspool, the largest chunks rise to the top. 
You can't reason with these chatterboxes, so don't try. Soon, this minor 
pool will dry up and the mob will move on to a new outrage. Outrage for 
outrage's sake. There's always a new enemy to smash in a show of force.


--
Ned
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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Donald Shepherd]

It's disappointing that some are using discussion on a (perfectly
acceptable) CoC to turn it into an excuse to post "jokes" about other
people's beliefs, but whatever floats your boat.

Regards,
Donald Shepherd.

On Tue, 23 Oct 2018 at 07:05, Charles Leifer  wrote:

> I dig the new CoC (not that anyone's counting).
>
> I'll share my comment from HN:
>
> If the code of conduct angers you, stop and think -- how did you feel one
> minute before you read the CoC? Is the problem really the CoC, or is it
> your collection of beliefs that is causing the problem? Furthermore, are
> you even affected? Do you contribute bug reports or patches? Follow the
> SQLite mailing list? Is anything here designed to prevent you from
> continuing to do so?
>
> SQLite's author is a spiritual guy. There's nothing wrong with him
> borrowing from spiritual sources to describe his ideal for how he wants the
> SQLite community to conduct itself.
>
> ...
>
> Also, how can you tell if someone's an atheist?
>
> Haha, don't worry friend, they'll be sure to tell you.
>
> Keep up the amazing work, SQLite team. The good tree bears the good fruit,
> and man SQLite is some good fruit.
>
> On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 2:49 PM Petite Abeille 
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > > On Oct 22, 2018, at 9:43 PM, Rob Dixon  wrote:
> > >
> > > weird and antagonistic
> >
> > Thank you for the kind words of support. Your wisdom and insights will be
> > missed. Farewell Rob Dixon. Godspeed.
> >
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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Charles Leifer]

I dig the new CoC (not that anyone's counting).

I'll share my comment from HN:

If the code of conduct angers you, stop and think -- how did you feel one
minute before you read the CoC? Is the problem really the CoC, or is it
your collection of beliefs that is causing the problem? Furthermore, are
you even affected? Do you contribute bug reports or patches? Follow the
SQLite mailing list? Is anything here designed to prevent you from
continuing to do so?

SQLite's author is a spiritual guy. There's nothing wrong with him
borrowing from spiritual sources to describe his ideal for how he wants the
SQLite community to conduct itself.

...

Also, how can you tell if someone's an atheist?

Haha, don't worry friend, they'll be sure to tell you.

Keep up the amazing work, SQLite team. The good tree bears the good fruit,
and man SQLite is some good fruit.

On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 2:49 PM Petite Abeille 
wrote:

>
>
> > On Oct 22, 2018, at 9:43 PM, Rob Dixon  wrote:
> >
> > weird and antagonistic
>
> Thank you for the kind words of support. Your wisdom and insights will be
> missed. Farewell Rob Dixon. Godspeed.
>
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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Petite Abeille]

> On Oct 22, 2018, at 9:43 PM, Rob Dixon  wrote:
> 
> weird and antagonistic

Thank you for the kind words of support. Your wisdom and insights will be 
missed. Farewell Rob Dixon. Godspeed.

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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Rob Dixon]

Thank you Simon, I will. SQL compact will do just fine for me. Funny, I
used to advocate for using SQLite. Now that I know more about the people
involved with it, I want nothing do to with it. Best of luck being weird
and antagonistic.

On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 1:22 PM R Smith  wrote:

>
> On 2018/10/22 7:09 PM, Simon Slavin wrote:
> >
> > If you're not going to accept those rules, in exactly the translation
> used, you might as well pick something entirely different.
> >
> > Simon.
>
> Indeed. Further to this, as I understand a CoC, it's basically the core
> entity informing whomever be so interested, how he/she/they aim to
> conduct themselves in the fulfillment of duties or business.
>
> I do not think it proscribes or prescribes to anyone else.
>
> For me, speaking as the avid Atheist I am, the specific rule-set in
> question is weird, but it also provides a great picture into the core
> devs' feelings of what's right, and that they will do the "right" thing
> in general, by the average understanding of the word "right" among most
> current philosophies - and I imagine that's really all they wished to say.
>
> To add to that, if there is one thing we (as free thinkers) hold in
> highest regard, it's not being forced to do anything; not being
> commanded; not having to bend to another will or doctrine. So I say keep
> it.
>
>
>
> PS: I could never comply with rule 63.  :)
>
>
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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[J Decker]

On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 12:22 PM R Smith  wrote:

>
> On 2018/10/22 7:09 PM, Simon Slavin wrote:
> >
> > If you're not going to accept those rules, in exactly the translation
> used, you might as well pick something entirely different.
> >
> > Simon.
>
> Indeed. Further to this, as I understand a CoC, it's basically the core
> entity informing whomever be so interested, how he/she/they aim to
> conduct themselves in the fulfillment of duties or business.
>
> I do not think it proscribes or prescribes to anyone else.
>
> For me, speaking as the avid Atheist I am, the specific rule-set in
> question is weird, but it also provides a great picture into the core
> devs' feelings of what's right, and that they will do the "right" thing
> in general, by the average understanding of the word "right" among most
> current philosophies - and I imagine that's really all they wished to say.
>
> To add to that, if there is one thing we (as free thinkers) hold in
> highest regard, it's not being forced to do anything; not being
> commanded; not having to bend to another will or doctrine. So I say keep
> it.
>

59.  Fulfill not the desires of the flesh; hate your own will.
:)

>
>
>
> PS: I could never comply with rule 63.  :)
>
>
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On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 12:22 PM R Smith  wrote:

>
> On 2018/10/22 7:09 PM, Simon Slavin wrote:
> >
> > If you're not going to accept those rules, in exactly the translation
> used, you might as well pick something entirely different.
> >
> > Simon.
>
> Indeed. Further to this, as I understand a CoC, it's basically the core
> entity informing whomever be so interested, how he/she/they aim to
> conduct themselves in the fulfillment of duties or business.
>
> I do not think it proscribes or prescribes to anyone else.
>
> For me, speaking as the avid Atheist I am, the specific rule-set in
> question is weird, but it also provides a great picture into the core
> devs' feelings of what's right, and that they will do the "right" thing
> in general, by the average understanding of the word "right" among most
> current philosophies - and I imagine that's really all they wished to say.
>
> To add to that, if there is one thing we (as free thinkers) hold in
> highest regard, it's not being forced to do anything; not being
> commanded; not having to bend to another will or doctrine. So I say keep
> it.
>
>
>
> PS: I could never comply with rule 63.  :)
>
>
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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[R Smith]

On 2018/10/22 7:09 PM, Simon Slavin wrote:


If you're not going to accept those rules, in exactly the translation used, you 
might as well pick something entirely different.

Simon.


Indeed. Further to this, as I understand a CoC, it's basically the core 
entity informing whomever be so interested, how he/she/they aim to 
conduct themselves in the fulfillment of duties or business.


I do not think it proscribes or prescribes to anyone else.

For me, speaking as the avid Atheist I am, the specific rule-set in 
question is weird, but it also provides a great picture into the core 
devs' feelings of what's right, and that they will do the "right" thing 
in general, by the average understanding of the word "right" among most 
current philosophies - and I imagine that's really all they wished to say.


To add to that, if there is one thing we (as free thinkers) hold in 
highest regard, it's not being forced to do anything; not being 
commanded; not having to bend to another will or doctrine. So I say keep 
it.




PS: I could never comply with rule 63.  :)


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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Peter da Silva]

You would have had more luck with "Be excellent to each other".
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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Don V Nielsen]

I really feel for you, DRH. You tried covering all the bases,
unfortunately, you going to get tagged out at everyone because everybody is
referee and they all follow their own rules.This goes straight to your
first point, "What is professional to some might be unprofessional to
others." This akin to people saying, "What good is religion because I am a
good person." Oh, yah? By whose measure? Their own. And that measure varies
from person to person. You reached to higher higher authority through St
Benedictine. But others don't agree with the authority. So they are going
to insist that it gets thrown out because they don't agree.

Your third point is the heart of the problem, "having a written CoC is
increasingly a business requirement". I read this as, "you felt the
pressure from significant businesses". Being global opens a wasps nest. We
all have to be inclusive, but all groups demand recognition. In plain
English, "You are damned if you do and damned if you don't." In the end,
you cannot win this.

IMO, you're best bet is to fold your hand and keep your chips you have in
front of you. You have made your feelings known. For those who have read
the CoC and share in your community, we will accept CoC changes that
eliminate those elements others are insulted by. That's just who we are.
But we know where they came from.

Lastly, props to Rowan Worth. "> 23. Do not nurse a grudge. ::sigh:: DROP
TABLE grudges; I was amassing such a good collection :(" Totally awesome
comment. I wish there was a like button for that.

On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 10:29 AM Richard Hipp  wrote:

> On 10/22/18, Chris Brody  wrote:
> >> Looks like that happened this morning.
> >> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18273530
> >
> > I saw it coming, tried to warn you guys in private.
>
> There is indeed a reactionary hate mob forming on twitter.  But most
> of the thoughtful commentators have been supportive, even if they
> disagree with the particulars of our CoC, They total get that we are
> not being exclusive, but rather setting a standard of behavior for
> participation in the SQLite community.
>
> I have tried to make that point clear in the preface to the CoC, that
> we have no intention of enforcing any particular religious system on
> anybody, and that everyone is welcomed to participate in the community
> regardless of ones religious proclivities.  The only requirement is
> that while participating in the SQLite community, your behavior not be
> in direct conflict with time-tested and centuries-old Christian
> ethics.  Nobody has to adhere to a particular creed.  Merely
> demonstrate professional behavior and all is well.
>
> Many detractors appear to have not read the preface, or if they read
> it, they did not understand it.  This might be because I have not
> explained it well.  The preface has been revised, months ago, to
> address prior criticism from the twitter crowd.  I think the current
> preface is definitely an improvement over what was up at first.  But,
> there might be ways of improving it further.  Thoughtful suggestions
> are welcomed.
>
> So the question then arises:  If strict adherence to the Rule of St.
> Benedict is not required, why even have a CoC?
>
> Several reasons:  First, "professional behavior" is ill-defined.  What
> is professional to some might be unprofessional to others.  The Rule
> attempts to clarify what "professional behavior" means.  When I was
> first trying to figure out what CoC to use (under pressure from
> clients) I also considered secular sources, such as Benjamin
> Franklin's 13 virtues (http://www.thirteenvirtues.com/) but ended up
> going with the Instruments of Good Works from St. Benedict's Rule as
> it provide more examples.
>
> Secondly, I view a CoC not so much as a legal code as a statement of
> the values of the core developers.  All current committers to SQLite
> approved the CoC before I published it.  A single dissent would have
> been sufficient for me to change course.  Taking down the current CoC
> would not change our values, it would merely obscure them.  Isn't it
> better to be open and honest about who we are?
>
> Thirdly, having a written CoC is increasingly a business requirement.
> (I published the currrent CoC after two separate business requested
> copies of our company CoC.  They did not say this was a precondition
> for doing business with them, but there was that implication.) There
> has been an implicit code of conduct for SQLite from the beginning,
> and almost everybody has gotten along with it just fine.  Once or
> twice I have had to privately reprove offenders, but those are rare
> exceptions.  Publishing the current CoC back in February is merely
> making explicit what has been implicit from the beginning.  Nothing
> has really changed.  I did not draw attention to the CoC back in
> February because all I really needed then was a hyperlink to send to
> those who were specifically curious.
>
> So then, why not use a more modern CoC?  I looked at 

Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Klaus Maas]

Funny world that one needs a code of contact to be considered civilized.

No need to defend your CoC.

I see it as a non-exhaustive list of values important to the developers.

That they are Christian-based gives some context for their interpretation.

Can't see any fault in that.

I may or may not share some/all/any of these values, but I should 
respect their significance for the developers.


Klaus

On 22/10/2018 18.32, Chris Brody wrote:

I would vote for a major simplification, down to something like "love
thy neighbor", "do unto others as ...", or "don't do unto others as
..."

For reference:
*https://www.simpletoremember.com/jewish/blog/loving-thy-neighbor-judaism/
*https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+5%3A14=KJV
On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 12:26 PM Simon Slavin  wrote:

On 22 Oct 2018, at 1:19pm, Richard Hipp  wrote:


Looks like that happened this morning.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18273530

It also hit Reddit, in /r/programming.  Currently 239 comments:



Simon.


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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[David Raymond]

For feedback from one more random person on the internet: I'll let you know 
that the CoC as it currently stands, along with your reasoning below, brings a 
smile to my face and restores a small bit of faith in humanity to my heart.


-Original Message-
From: sqlite-users [mailto:sqlite-users-boun...@mailinglists.sqlite.org] On 
Behalf Of Richard Hipp
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 11:29 AM
To: SQLite mailing list
Subject: Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

On 10/22/18, Chris Brody  wrote:
>> Looks like that happened this morning.
>> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18273530
>
> I saw it coming, tried to warn you guys in private.

There is indeed a reactionary hate mob forming on twitter.  But most
of the thoughtful commentators have been supportive, even if they
disagree with the particulars of our CoC, They total get that we are
not being exclusive, but rather setting a standard of behavior for
participation in the SQLite community.

I have tried to make that point clear in the preface to the CoC, that
we have no intention of enforcing any particular religious system on
anybody, and that everyone is welcomed to participate in the community
regardless of ones religious proclivities.  The only requirement is
that while participating in the SQLite community, your behavior not be
in direct conflict with time-tested and centuries-old Christian
ethics.  Nobody has to adhere to a particular creed.  Merely
demonstrate professional behavior and all is well.

Many detractors appear to have not read the preface, or if they read
it, they did not understand it.  This might be because I have not
explained it well.  The preface has been revised, months ago, to
address prior criticism from the twitter crowd.  I think the current
preface is definitely an improvement over what was up at first.  But,
there might be ways of improving it further.  Thoughtful suggestions
are welcomed.

So the question then arises:  If strict adherence to the Rule of St.
Benedict is not required, why even have a CoC?

Several reasons:  First, "professional behavior" is ill-defined.  What
is professional to some might be unprofessional to others.  The Rule
attempts to clarify what "professional behavior" means.  When I was
first trying to figure out what CoC to use (under pressure from
clients) I also considered secular sources, such as Benjamin
Franklin's 13 virtues (http://www.thirteenvirtues.com/) but ended up
going with the Instruments of Good Works from St. Benedict's Rule as
it provide more examples.

Secondly, I view a CoC not so much as a legal code as a statement of
the values of the core developers.  All current committers to SQLite
approved the CoC before I published it.  A single dissent would have
been sufficient for me to change course.  Taking down the current CoC
would not change our values, it would merely obscure them.  Isn't it
better to be open and honest about who we are?

Thirdly, having a written CoC is increasingly a business requirement.
(I published the currrent CoC after two separate business requested
copies of our company CoC.  They did not say this was a precondition
for doing business with them, but there was that implication.) There
has been an implicit code of conduct for SQLite from the beginning,
and almost everybody has gotten along with it just fine.  Once or
twice I have had to privately reprove offenders, but those are rare
exceptions.  Publishing the current CoC back in February is merely
making explicit what has been implicit from the beginning.  Nothing
has really changed.  I did not draw attention to the CoC back in
February because all I really needed then was a hyperlink to send to
those who were specifically curious.

So then, why not use a more modern CoC?  I looked at that too, but
found the so-called "modern" CoCs to be vapid.  They are trendy
feel-good statements that do not really get to the heart of the matter
in the way the the ancient Rule does.  By way of analogy, I view
modern CoCs as being like pop music - selling millions of copies today
and completely forgotten next year.  I prefer something more enduring,
like Mozart.

One final reason for publishing the current CoC is as a preemptive
move, to prevent some future customer from imposing on us one of those
modern CoCs that I so dislike.

In summary: The values expressed by the current CoC have been
unchanged for decades and will not be changing as we move forward.  If
some people are uncomfortable with those values, then I am very sorry
for them, but that does not change the fact.  On the other hand, I am
open to suggestions on how to express those values in a way that
modern twitter-ites can better understand, so do not hesitate to speak
up if you have a plan.
-- 
D. Richard Hipp
d...@sqlite.org
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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Rob Dixon]

SQLite lost a lot of credibility with a lot of people over this stunt. I
know you think it doesn’t matter, but SQLite is a brand- this tarnishes
that brand and makes life more difficult for those of us who need to
justify using it to project stakeholders. If it is a serious CoC,
stakeholders see a red flag because they don’t want tech held hostage by
perceived religious fanatics. If it is a joke stakeholders think the tech
itself is unprofessional. It’s a lose-lose situation, and I’m wondering if
taking on a culture of vapid CoCs worth tarnishing your brand name over?

On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 9:29 AM Richard Hipp  wrote:

> On 10/22/18, Chris Brody  wrote:
> >> Looks like that happened this morning.
> >> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18273530
> >
> > I saw it coming, tried to warn you guys in private.
>
> There is indeed a reactionary hate mob forming on twitter.  But most
> of the thoughtful commentators have been supportive, even if they
> disagree with the particulars of our CoC, They total get that we are
> not being exclusive, but rather setting a standard of behavior for
> participation in the SQLite community.
>
> I have tried to make that point clear in the preface to the CoC, that
> we have no intention of enforcing any particular religious system on
> anybody, and that everyone is welcomed to participate in the community
> regardless of ones religious proclivities.  The only requirement is
> that while participating in the SQLite community, your behavior not be
> in direct conflict with time-tested and centuries-old Christian
> ethics.  Nobody has to adhere to a particular creed.  Merely
> demonstrate professional behavior and all is well.
>
> Many detractors appear to have not read the preface, or if they read
> it, they did not understand it.  This might be because I have not
> explained it well.  The preface has been revised, months ago, to
> address prior criticism from the twitter crowd.  I think the current
> preface is definitely an improvement over what was up at first.  But,
> there might be ways of improving it further.  Thoughtful suggestions
> are welcomed.
>
> So the question then arises:  If strict adherence to the Rule of St.
> Benedict is not required, why even have a CoC?
>
> Several reasons:  First, "professional behavior" is ill-defined.  What
> is professional to some might be unprofessional to others.  The Rule
> attempts to clarify what "professional behavior" means.  When I was
> first trying to figure out what CoC to use (under pressure from
> clients) I also considered secular sources, such as Benjamin
> Franklin's 13 virtues (http://www.thirteenvirtues.com/) but ended up
> going with the Instruments of Good Works from St. Benedict's Rule as
> it provide more examples.
>
> Secondly, I view a CoC not so much as a legal code as a statement of
> the values of the core developers.  All current committers to SQLite
> approved the CoC before I published it.  A single dissent would have
> been sufficient for me to change course.  Taking down the current CoC
> would not change our values, it would merely obscure them.  Isn't it
> better to be open and honest about who we are?
>
> Thirdly, having a written CoC is increasingly a business requirement.
> (I published the currrent CoC after two separate business requested
> copies of our company CoC.  They did not say this was a precondition
> for doing business with them, but there was that implication.) There
> has been an implicit code of conduct for SQLite from the beginning,
> and almost everybody has gotten along with it just fine.  Once or
> twice I have had to privately reprove offenders, but those are rare
> exceptions.  Publishing the current CoC back in February is merely
> making explicit what has been implicit from the beginning.  Nothing
> has really changed.  I did not draw attention to the CoC back in
> February because all I really needed then was a hyperlink to send to
> those who were specifically curious.
>
> So then, why not use a more modern CoC?  I looked at that too, but
> found the so-called "modern" CoCs to be vapid.  They are trendy
> feel-good statements that do not really get to the heart of the matter
> in the way the the ancient Rule does.  By way of analogy, I view
> modern CoCs as being like pop music - selling millions of copies today
> and completely forgotten next year.  I prefer something more enduring,
> like Mozart.
>
> One final reason for publishing the current CoC is as a preemptive
> move, to prevent some future customer from imposing on us one of those
> modern CoCs that I so dislike.
>
> In summary: The values expressed by the current CoC have been
> unchanged for decades and will not be changing as we move forward.  If
> some people are uncomfortable with those values, then I am very sorry
> for them, but that does not change the fact.  On the other hand, I am
> open to suggestions on how to express those values in a way that
> modern twitter-ites can better understand, so do not 

Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Petite Abeille]

> On Oct 22, 2018, at 5:29 PM, Richard Hipp  wrote:
> 
> In summary

Leave it as it is, no one is going to loose sleep over it. Now, about that 
MERGE command... :)

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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Simon Slavin]

On 22 Oct 2018, at 5:32pm, someone wrote:

> I would vote for a major simplification

There's no point.  The point of the code a posted is that it is a direct copy 
of the code of St. Benedict, the rules (allowing for translation from the 
Latin) which have been accepted by Benedictine monks for 1300 years.  In that 
time the rules were debated, by people of all religions and none, far more 
cleverly and amusingly than I've seen in the past week on the internet.

If you're not going to accept those rules, in exactly the translation used, you 
might as well pick something entirely different.

Simon.
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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Chris Brody]

I would vote for a major simplification, down to something like "love
thy neighbor", "do unto others as ...", or "don't do unto others as
..."

For reference:
* https://www.simpletoremember.com/jewish/blog/loving-thy-neighbor-judaism/
* https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+5%3A14=KJV
On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 12:26 PM Simon Slavin  wrote:
>
> On 22 Oct 2018, at 1:19pm, Richard Hipp  wrote:
>
> > Looks like that happened this morning.
> > https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18273530
>
> It also hit Reddit, in /r/programming.  Currently 239 comments:
>
> 
>
> Simon.
>
>
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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Simon Slavin]

On 22 Oct 2018, at 1:19pm, Richard Hipp  wrote:

> Looks like that happened this morning.
> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18273530

It also hit Reddit, in /r/programming.  Currently 239 comments:



Simon.


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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Richard Hipp]

On 10/22/18, Chris Brody  wrote:
>> Looks like that happened this morning.
>> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18273530
>
> I saw it coming, tried to warn you guys in private.

There is indeed a reactionary hate mob forming on twitter.  But most
of the thoughtful commentators have been supportive, even if they
disagree with the particulars of our CoC, They total get that we are
not being exclusive, but rather setting a standard of behavior for
participation in the SQLite community.

I have tried to make that point clear in the preface to the CoC, that
we have no intention of enforcing any particular religious system on
anybody, and that everyone is welcomed to participate in the community
regardless of ones religious proclivities.  The only requirement is
that while participating in the SQLite community, your behavior not be
in direct conflict with time-tested and centuries-old Christian
ethics.  Nobody has to adhere to a particular creed.  Merely
demonstrate professional behavior and all is well.

Many detractors appear to have not read the preface, or if they read
it, they did not understand it.  This might be because I have not
explained it well.  The preface has been revised, months ago, to
address prior criticism from the twitter crowd.  I think the current
preface is definitely an improvement over what was up at first.  But,
there might be ways of improving it further.  Thoughtful suggestions
are welcomed.

So the question then arises:  If strict adherence to the Rule of St.
Benedict is not required, why even have a CoC?

Several reasons:  First, "professional behavior" is ill-defined.  What
is professional to some might be unprofessional to others.  The Rule
attempts to clarify what "professional behavior" means.  When I was
first trying to figure out what CoC to use (under pressure from
clients) I also considered secular sources, such as Benjamin
Franklin's 13 virtues (http://www.thirteenvirtues.com/) but ended up
going with the Instruments of Good Works from St. Benedict's Rule as
it provide more examples.

Secondly, I view a CoC not so much as a legal code as a statement of
the values of the core developers.  All current committers to SQLite
approved the CoC before I published it.  A single dissent would have
been sufficient for me to change course.  Taking down the current CoC
would not change our values, it would merely obscure them.  Isn't it
better to be open and honest about who we are?

Thirdly, having a written CoC is increasingly a business requirement.
(I published the currrent CoC after two separate business requested
copies of our company CoC.  They did not say this was a precondition
for doing business with them, but there was that implication.) There
has been an implicit code of conduct for SQLite from the beginning,
and almost everybody has gotten along with it just fine.  Once or
twice I have had to privately reprove offenders, but those are rare
exceptions.  Publishing the current CoC back in February is merely
making explicit what has been implicit from the beginning.  Nothing
has really changed.  I did not draw attention to the CoC back in
February because all I really needed then was a hyperlink to send to
those who were specifically curious.

So then, why not use a more modern CoC?  I looked at that too, but
found the so-called "modern" CoCs to be vapid.  They are trendy
feel-good statements that do not really get to the heart of the matter
in the way the the ancient Rule does.  By way of analogy, I view
modern CoCs as being like pop music - selling millions of copies today
and completely forgotten next year.  I prefer something more enduring,
like Mozart.

One final reason for publishing the current CoC is as a preemptive
move, to prevent some future customer from imposing on us one of those
modern CoCs that I so dislike.

In summary: The values expressed by the current CoC have been
unchanged for decades and will not be changing as we move forward.  If
some people are uncomfortable with those values, then I am very sorry
for them, but that does not change the fact.  On the other hand, I am
open to suggestions on how to express those values in a way that
modern twitter-ites can better understand, so do not hesitate to speak
up if you have a plan.
-- 
D. Richard Hipp
d...@sqlite.org
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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Chris Brody]

> Looks like that happened this morning.
> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18273530

I saw it coming, tried to warn you guys in private.
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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Mantas Gridinas]

To be fair, internet is considered to be series of reposts.

On Mon, Oct 22, 2018, 15:20 Richard Hipp  On 10/19/18, Simon Slavin  wrote:
> >
> > Yeah, that's gonna magically appear on Hacker News within the month.  For
> > those curious ...
> >
>
> Looks like that happened this morning.
> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18273530
>
> --
> D. Richard Hipp
> d...@sqlite.org
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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Richard Hipp]

On 10/19/18, Simon Slavin  wrote:
>
> Yeah, that's gonna magically appear on Hacker News within the month.  For
> those curious ...
>

Looks like that happened this morning.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18273530

-- 
D. Richard Hipp
d...@sqlite.org
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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Rowan Worth]

On Fri, 19 Oct 2018 at 19:52, Mantas Gridinas  wrote:

> I found code of conduct in documentation and I was wondering if it were
> true. Checking the version history it appears to have been added on
> 2018-02-22.
>

> 23. Do not nurse a grudge.

::sigh::
DROP TABLE grudges;

I was amassing such a good collection :(
-Rowan
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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Wout Mertens]

On Oct 19, 2018 11:00 PM, "Roger Schlueter"  wrote:

There's no atheists/freethinkers at SQLite?


There's at least one (me), but they can simply ignore all the God-related
rules, easy.

It gets a bit harder for Hindus though, they have to mentally add "(your
favorite for this use case)" in front of every mention of God.

If the second half of 54 is observed, it would be a dreary world indeed.


Hmm yes, I did not take any of the asceticism rules seriously. I am and
will continue to be in frequent non-compliance of them.

Wout.
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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Petite Abeille]

> On Oct 19, 2018, at 11:05 PM, Wout Mertens  wrote:
> 
>  I can live with that.

Yes, let’s get along for once.

In the memorable words of President Dale:

"Why can't we work out our differences? Why can't we work things out? Little 
forum people, why can't we all just get along?”
Mars Attacks! (1996)

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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Wout Mertens]

Well in the preface it does say that full compliance is near impossible and
not required.

I wouldn't call it antagonistic, it has many rules that are very inclusive
of anyone.

I must say it's a bit messy though, there are quite a few rules and not all
of them are nicely orthogonal. Most of them boil down to Bill and Ted's "Be
excellent to each other", with a dash of YOLO and a plea to maximize your
karma score. I can live with that.

Wout.

On Fri, Oct 19, 2018, 8:34 PM Scott Perry  wrote:

> I have to admit I was a lot more excited about the concept of SQLite
> having a Code of Conduct until I actually read it. Regardless of the fact
> that I seem to fail a great many of its provisions, it seems fairly deaf—if
> not antagonistic—to the issues of our times that have created demand for
> such documents.
>
> Scott
>
> On Oct 19, 2018, at 7:11 AM, Richard Hipp  wrote:
> >
> > On 10/19/18, Mantas Gridinas  wrote:
> >>
> >> I found code of conduct in documentation and I was wondering if it were
> >> true. Checking the version history it appears to have been added on
> >> 2018-02-22.
> >>
> >
> > Yes.  Clients were encouraging me to have a code of conduct.  (Having
> > a CoC seems to be a trendy thing nowadays.)  So I looked around and
> > came up with what you found, submitted the idea to the whole staff,
> > and everybody approved.
> >
> > --
> > D. Richard Hipp
> > d...@sqlite.org
> > ___
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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Roger Schlueter]

There's no atheists/freethinkers at SQLite?

If the second half of 54 is observed, it would be a dreary world indeed.

Roger


On 10/19/2018 10:30, Simon Slavin wrote:

On 19 Oct 2018, at 6:26pm, Andrew Brown  
wrote:


I looked it up, wondering what it would say, and I have to say, I love it.

Yeah, that's gonna magically appear on Hacker News within the month.  For those 
curious ...



Simon.
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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Mantas Gridinas]

How come it hadn't yet?

On Fri, Oct 19, 2018, 20:30 Simon Slavin  wrote:

> On 19 Oct 2018, at 6:26pm, Andrew Brown 
> wrote:
>
> > I looked it up, wondering what it would say, and I have to say, I love
> it.
>
> Yeah, that's gonna magically appear on Hacker News within the month.  For
> those curious ...
>
> 
>
> Simon.
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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Dave Waters]

As if I needed another reason for SQLite to be my favorite database.  Well
done.

On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 10:11 AM Richard Hipp  wrote:

> On 10/19/18, Mantas Gridinas  wrote:
> >
> > I found code of conduct in documentation and I was wondering if it were
> > true. Checking the version history it appears to have been added on
> > 2018-02-22.
> >
>
> Yes.  Clients were encouraging me to have a code of conduct.  (Having
> a CoC seems to be a trendy thing nowadays.)  So I looked around and
> came up with what you found, submitted the idea to the whole staff,
> and everybody approved.
>
> --
> D. Richard Hipp
> d...@sqlite.org
> ___
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>


-- 
Dave
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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Scott Perry]

I have to admit I was a lot more excited about the concept of SQLite having a 
Code of Conduct until I actually read it. Regardless of the fact that I seem to 
fail a great many of its provisions, it seems fairly deaf—if not 
antagonistic—to the issues of our times that have created demand for such 
documents.

Scott

On Oct 19, 2018, at 7:11 AM, Richard Hipp  wrote:
> 
> On 10/19/18, Mantas Gridinas  wrote:
>> 
>> I found code of conduct in documentation and I was wondering if it were
>> true. Checking the version history it appears to have been added on
>> 2018-02-22.
>> 
> 
> Yes.  Clients were encouraging me to have a code of conduct.  (Having
> a CoC seems to be a trendy thing nowadays.)  So I looked around and
> came up with what you found, submitted the idea to the whole staff,
> and everybody approved.
> 
> -- 
> D. Richard Hipp
> d...@sqlite.org
> ___
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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Simon Slavin]

On 19 Oct 2018, at 6:26pm, Andrew Brown  
wrote:

> I looked it up, wondering what it would say, and I have to say, I love it.

Yeah, that's gonna magically appear on Hacker News within the month.  For those 
curious ...



Simon.
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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Andrew Brown]

I looked it up, wondering what it would say, and I have to say, I love it.

On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 7:11 AM Richard Hipp  wrote:

> On 10/19/18, Mantas Gridinas  wrote:
> >
> > I found code of conduct in documentation and I was wondering if it were
> > true. Checking the version history it appears to have been added on
> > 2018-02-22.
> >
>
> Yes.  Clients were encouraging me to have a code of conduct.  (Having
> a CoC seems to be a trendy thing nowadays.)  So I looked around and
> came up with what you found, submitted the idea to the whole staff,
> and everybody approved.
>
> --
> D. Richard Hipp
> d...@sqlite.org
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-- 
Andrew Brown
Senior Software Engineer, Data Delivery
[image: http://www.economicmodeling.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/logo.png]
Cell: 208-301-3354
www.economicmodeling.com 
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Re: [sqlite] Regarding CoC

[Richard Hipp]

On 10/19/18, Mantas Gridinas  wrote:
>
> I found code of conduct in documentation and I was wondering if it were
> true. Checking the version history it appears to have been added on
> 2018-02-22.
>

Yes.  Clients were encouraging me to have a code of conduct.  (Having
a CoC seems to be a trendy thing nowadays.)  So I looked around and
came up with what you found, submitted the idea to the whole staff,
and everybody approved.

-- 
D. Richard Hipp
d...@sqlite.org
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