Re: [Biofuel] Sunshine to Petrol
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Uh-huh Allan However many people it might be, many of them would probably say as you do, No problem, we can do both things at the same time, plenty of brains to go round and so on. But I doubt it'd be more than just lip service, they don't really see it that way, I can't speak for all of them, but the ones I personally know _do_ see it that way. The way they, and I, see it, it's best for each person to work where his passion is. If it's your passion to go to the moon, Mars, and beyond, then work on it. If it's your passion to teach people in the third world to lift themselves out of poverty then work on it. Let each person work where his passion, education, and calling lead him. _That_ is why I say there are brains enough to go around. ...and if there is a Mars trip it will be more money and resources thrown away, the real problems won't be solved nor even confronted, at least not by them. Perhaps not by them specifically, but certainly by other people of equal intelligence and passion. I wonder if any of those problems were mentioned at the SF confab you went to. They should have been, they're not absent from the literature. Yes they were. The Heinlein Centennial was a celebration of the life and works of Robert A. Heinlein on what would have been his 100th birthday. One of the ideas that RAH was a big supporter of is Pay It Forward. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pay_it_forward Heinlein himself wrote that it is not simply ability, but the responsibility of fortunate people to help less fortunate people. I disagree, Keith. I don't think it has to be an either-or thing or a first-then-later thing. I think both can be done at the same time. In fact I think both _must_ be done at the same time. Any plans for promoting that idea among the 400 SF PhDs or the quite a lot of us who're bent on going to Mars? Or is that it, just as long as somebody says so? A number of them are actively working on both ends of the equation. Peter Diamandis among them. http://www.xprize.org/x-prizes/future-x-prizes ... ï ONE-FIFTH are undernourished I understand that, and I'm not saying it isn't a problem. It is. You didn't say it's not a problem and you didn't say it is, I doubt it entered your thinking on going to Mars, did it? Specifically on the subject of Mars, no. I was thinking about going to Mars. But I am not one-dimensional. There are other parts of my mind devoted to helping the less fortunate lift themselves out of poverty. Things like microloans: http://www.kiva.org/ Currently the future of man and space isn't exploration, it's exploitation and militarisation, and there's probably not much chance that will change any time soon. Perhaps. IMHO, there can be no exploitation without prior exploration. The real trick is to make exploration of the Moon, Mars, and Beyond self supporting, so that it doesn't have to keep sucking money out of the world economy at all, and preferably so that it adds money to the world economy. When it comes to the militarization of space, it's been militarized for decades, the real question is who holds the high ground? I'd rather not cede the high ground to someone I don't like. Please don't think I'm being hidebound or whatever about this. Never mind whose is bigger, but I doubt you've read more science fiction than I have, Indeed. I am interested to know what you like to read. Perhaps I can read some of it so I can understand you better. ...and published it too. You've published SF? Now _that_ I'd definitely be interested in reading! I've found you can get a very interesting insight into how a person's mind works by the way they write _fiction_ better than just about any other way. There's more to it than the clarke-ian view, that's just the same tired old 1950s suburban Reader's Digest ... /Astounding!/, actually. It's now known as /Analog/, and I'm a subscriber. ...and can-do Popular Science mag utopianism still staggering about like the Undead in a new host body. Not really. It's still alive an well in the science journals. It never died, it just got reduced to a core of true believers. Unless you still think technological might is Progress, but the myth of Progress was debunked more than 30 years ago, and the failure of the whole Modernism project acknowledged. (And then came neo-liberal economics... and just look what can-do did.) Ergh. The Reagan years. And we have some of this election cycle's candidates who crow about being Ronald Reagan Republicans. Yeah. Right. That's _all_ we need. No thank you. Unfortunately, the Democrats aren't offering much better. You can find the sources for the stats at our website. It needs some updating, it's worse than that now, lots worse in some cases, though the data is only a few years old. http://journeytoforever.org/community2.html Community development - poverty and hunger: Journey to
Re: [Biofuel] Sunshine to Petrol
Chris Burck wrote: oops, you're right, i didn't represent that entirely accurately. thanks for pointing that out. my web correspondence is all via phone these days, and w/o a proper keyboard my thoughts sometimes get unintentionally compressed. I hate it when that happens. :-) but in effect, charging an ev would be direct use of the solar as compared to using that same power, to synthesize a fuel with which to power an ic engine. i'd wager that to cover a given distance, the energy you'd need to charge your batteries wouldn't get you past the first couple reaction stages in making the synthetic fuel . also, the inefficiencies of ev's are pretty darn minor. compare ~90% for ev locomotion vs. ~30% for combustion engine. direct comparison of battery to liquid fuel is not valid because elimination of the ic aparatus allows a much larger volume of battery than of liquid fuel. Perhaps. The renewable fuel + ICE vs. Battery Electric Vehicle argument is well established in this forum, and I don't want to recapitulate it in this thread. that said, i definitely would characterize the energy density gap as narrowing rapidly. It is narrowing, certainly, but I suppose how rapidly it is happening depends on one's perspective. the heinlein commemorative sounds like it might have been interesting. kind of ironic that you'd bring it up in the context of this discussion, since i don't think he could have been further from the clarke-ian. he was one of the most humanistic of his generation. This is true. I suppose my view would be more heinleinian than clarkeian. The result is the same. AP ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] The Alcohol Cure
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NGQ2OTA5ZGM1Y2Y2NGE1OTVlYzA3MDNlZGFkYTk0OGM= AP ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] [SPAM] The Alcohol Cure
The question of whether the farmlands of the United States are capable of fueling what Kunstler calles the Happy Motoring Society mech less the world, doesn't seem to interest this writer. Nor do the possibilities of building cars which don't need as much fuel, of getting around without cars. or even of building an economy and a society in which we don't have to move around as much and maybe don't want to flee the places where we live and work. I thought that editors were supposed to filter out articles by glittery-eyed lunatics, or at least get them to rewrite with a nod to reality. But it's probably true that I'm old-fashioned. Doug Woodard St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada Alan Petrillo wrote: http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NGQ2OTA5ZGM1Y2Y2NGE1OTVlYzA3MDNlZGFkYTk0OGM= ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] The Alcohol Cure
That article doesn't address the need to reduce global energy usage. There is no way we could continue using energy to the same extent we do. Peak Oil will see to that. Appropriating biomass and agricultural products as the article suggests is not realistic unless we address the pwerdown requirements. Furthermore, it looks like another attempt to perpetuate some big business interests. This is not the way forward IMO. Life in the future will be sustainable whether we like it or not. Looking at a local low energy requirement solution appears to be the way forward, not some fantasy solution that is unsustainable without fossil fuel input. /D Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 18:03:46 -0500 From: Alan Petrillo Subject: [Biofuel] The Alcohol Cure To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NGQ2OTA5ZGM1Y2Y2NGE1OTVlYzA3MDNlZGFkYTk0OGM= AP _ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] What's Wrong With This Picture
Hello. Lately, I have been doing a lot of reading on the different systems for using SVO. Elsbett seems to have one of the best single tank systems for this. I have made good biodiesel, but with rising costs of methanol, I was looking at alternatives. I have read about fuel mixing and admit have tried the DSE just to see what all the hype was about. I agree that there is nothing really special about their ingredient and most of the thinning and diluting is done with the kerosene and gasoline. It seemed to work fine in my 300SD, but the more I read, the more I learned of the negative aspects(incomplete combustion, coking, ring sticking, etc.). I understand that I should only try things like this for short term experiments, which I have. Is it the FFA in the vegetable oil that causes all of these problems? Is that why biodiesel will not cause these problems, because part of the process removes FFA? I also read about the experiment that concluded that in order to achieve the same atomization as petrol diesel, the rapeseed oil was heated to 150 C. This is twice as hot as most of the 2 tank SVO systems that are on the market now. Would this mean that you would still have incomplete combustion if 150 C cannot be reached? If Rudolf Diesel invented his engine to run on a variety of fuels, including vegetable oil, how come the engines of today require more modification or fuel modification to run veg oil? My last question is concerning the Elsbett single tank SVO system. If you can just pour the veg oil in and go, is there a heater on the main tank for cold weather? I am not even sure that SVO will work for me since I drive 12 miles one way to work. My car gets up to operation temp. half way there. Thanks all. Jonathan Schearer. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hallo, Check out this website if you want to see how well some folks talk out both sides of their mouths. http://www.dieselsecret.com No, it isn't Bio-diesel! Yes, it is the only true Bio-diesel! The Germans at Mercedes have been doing this since the post World War II years but we have the only proprietary ingredients! On, and on, and on. Same old same old. Happy Happy, Gustl -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music. Friedrich Nietzsche The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ - Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20071213/7291b188/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Study finds White House manipulation on climate science
Study finds White House manipulation on climate science At least since 2003, and especially after hurricane Katrina hit, the White House has broadly attempted to control which climate scientists could speak with reporters, as well as editing scientists' congressional testimony on climate science and key legal opinions, according to a new report by a House committee. http://blog.alternate-energy.net/entries/entry_30.php Get your daily alternative energy news Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources-resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net News Blog http://blog.alternate-energy.net/index.php Next_Generation_Grid http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid Alternative_Energy_Politics http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics Tomorrow-energy http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy Earth_Rescue_International http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Earth_Rescue_International ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Micro turbines to generate electricity for households
Micro turbines to generate electricity for households http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detaylink=129293 It is now possible to generate electricity using small rivers and even shallow brooks thanks to the brand new micro turbines developed and produced by Turkish Electromechanics Industry (TEMSAN). Micro turbines will render it possible to generate electricity even from a small brook, though it will meet only the needs of an ordinary house. TEMSAN, committed to manufacturing turbine and generator equipment for hydroelectric power plants and designing and producing micro turbines and transformer substations under the supervision of the Ministry of Energy and Natural Resources, has recently completed its four-year long studies and managed to design 12 different turbine prototypes. The prices of these turbines vary from YTL 3,000 to YTL 40,000 depending on their capacity and strength. A micro turbine, able to produce 3 kilowatt/hour (kWh) of power, meets all the electricity needs of four houses -- from illumination to temperature control. Turbines with a capacity of 100 to 200 kWh, on the other hand, are enough to supply electricity for moderate-sized villages and even small-sized towns. It is not necessary to get a license or to establish a company to install micro turbines on rivers or brooks. Anyone is able to get one of these turbines and install it under the guidance of local ministry representative. They will also be able to sell the electricity to the local electricity network. Hamit Akdere, a fish farm operator in Sivas, was the first to acquire and run one of these micro turbines. He notes that this system is extremely profitable as long as there is water to spin the turbine. The electricity generated by these turbines will contribute significantly to meeting the country's energy hunger, Turkey's Energy Minister Hilmi Güler has said on several occasions since the project began in 2003. In the past, people used to say 'water flows in vain and Turks just watch'. This will no longer be the case, Güler stressed frequently. If micro turbines start being widely used across the country, they will supply at least 10 percent of Turkey's total annual electricity usage -- in other words they will produce around 3,000 megawatts (MW) of electricity. TEMSAN General Manager Osman Kadakal pointed out that conventional hydroelectric plants could only be constructed on large rivers with high flow potential, whereas micro turbines can get electricity from even small streams. Kadakal also notes that it is possible to install numerous micro turbines on rivers as long as the depth and strength of the river's water flow allow it. Although this technology is new for Turkey, it is already in use in many countries. This method is especially useful in countries with an abundance of small rivers. Electricity-hungry workshops, like foundry works, are usually established around such small rivers in these countries. The turbines are designed to also cover some major risks. For example, they utilize high-capacity batteries that immediately step in if the turbines are broken or temporarily out of service. Kadakal said the micro turbines are 100 percent Turkish products and no foreign technology was used in manufacturing them. A separate research and development body is employed to develop micro turbines for this. A single micro turbine of the smallest capacity can produce enough electricity to cover all electricity needs of two ordinary houses and costs around YTL 3,000, excluding batteries and other supplements. Assuming that the cost of electricity for homes is roughly Ykr 10 per kilowatt-hour -- which comes out to around YTL 880 in one year, taking into consideration the annual average consumption amounts in Turkey, these machines will pay for themselves in just two years. They also work with no operational costs. The Energy Productivity Law, passed by Parliament in May 2007, allows the generation of electricity from small rivers provided that a person or institution establishes a plant with a maximum capacity of 200-kilowatt (KW). The law also exempts them from having a production license or owning a company for generation so long they use the electricity only for their own needs. Get your daily alternative energy news Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources-resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net News Blog http://blog.alternate-energy.net/index.php Next_Generation_Grid http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid Alternative_Energy_Politics http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics Tomorrow-energy http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy Earth_Rescue_International http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Earth_Rescue_International ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Re: [Biofuel] What's Wrong With This Picture
Hello Jonathan et al The main problem with SVO is the high boiling point. This includes both the FFA and the SVO molecule itself. The points of turning the SVO into biodiesel are the following: 1) The final boiling point of the fuel will not exceed 370oC, which is proper for modern small and middle-size diesel engines. 2) The viscosity will drop til approx. max 5cSt, which is acceptable to modern small and middle-size diesel engines. 3) Using the proper recipe when performing the process, the FFA will be reduced or saponified. This will make the fuel less corrosive, assuming that the alkaline metal content of the biodiesel is taken care of . 4) The chemically bounded glycerine in SVO will partially be released from the SVO in hot environment. The glycerine is hard to combust, since it rather forms deposits than CO2 and water. Best regards AGERATEC AB Jan Warnqvist - Original Message - From: Jonathan Schearer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, December 14, 2007 5:01 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] What's Wrong With This Picture Hello. Lately, I have been doing a lot of reading on the different systems for using SVO. Elsbett seems to have one of the best single tank systems for this. I have made good biodiesel, but with rising costs of methanol, I was looking at alternatives. I have read about fuel mixing and admit have tried the DSE just to see what all the hype was about. I agree that there is nothing really special about their ingredient and most of the thinning and diluting is done with the kerosene and gasoline. It seemed to work fine in my 300SD, but the more I read, the more I learned of the negative aspects(incomplete combustion, coking, ring sticking, etc.). I understand that I should only try things like this for short term experiments, which I have. Is it the FFA in the vegetable oil that causes all of these problems? Is that why biodiesel will not cause these problems, because part of the process removes FFA? I also read about the experiment that concluded that in order to achieve the same atomization as petrol diesel, the rapeseed oil was heated to 150 C. This is twice as hot as most of the 2 tank SVO systems that are on the market now. Would this mean that you would still have incomplete combustion if 150 C cannot be reached? If Rudolf Diesel invented his engine to run on a variety of fuels, including vegetable oil, how come the engines of today require more modification or fuel modification to run veg oil? My last question is concerning the Elsbett single tank SVO system. If you can just pour the veg oil in and go, is there a heater on the main tank for cold weather? I am not even sure that SVO will work for me since I drive 12 miles one way to work. My car gets up to operation temp. half way there. Thanks all. Jonathan Schearer. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hallo, Check out this website if you want to see how well some folks talk out both sides of their mouths. http://www.dieselsecret.com No, it isn't Bio-diesel! Yes, it is the only true Bio-diesel! The Germans at Mercedes have been doing this since the post World War II years but we have the only proprietary ingredients! On, and on, and on. Same old same old. Happy Happy, Gustl -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music. Friedrich Nietzsche The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ - Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20071213/7291b188/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail
