Re: [Biofuel] NaOH vs. KOH - Start to end
Hi! At 19:36 25.12.05, you wrote: Hello Vaklin Hi! At 18:29 24.12.05, you wrote: Hello Vaklin My personal opinion, not sure I'm right or not... + KOH dissolves in seconds in CH3OH Some of it does, but it takes about 10 minutes or more to dissolve what you'd use to make a batch. o The process has not faster than one with NaOH No, and also it's not slower. - KOH here is 3 times expensive than NaOH Are you sure? People have said such things but when they had a better look they usually managed to get it for about the same unit price (though you use more), including at least one person in East Europe. Will give prices in BGN (native currency $1.64 = 1BGN) NaOH 0.70 BGN without VAT; KOH 2.50 BGN without VAT. Have found the place where can buy for approx 1.50 BGN, but should drive 300km. Keep trying, I'm sure you'll get there in the end, everyone else did. - You should use approximately 1.5 times (in grams) more KOH Why give only an approximate figure for how much catalyst to use? If it's not accurate it's useless, or worse. You need to use 1.4 times as much (1.4025), and you also have to adjust it for purity. For accurate information please see: More about lye http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#lye I have wrote approximately. Exactly the value is as you said. If all you have is an approximate value for such a thing then find an accurate value before you post it, otherwise you're just being lazy, and it doesn't help anyone. OK. Will not post any approximate values anymore! Only third digits after the decimal point. For 250 ml fresh rape oil I have used 2.5g KOH or 1.78 gram NaOH. With these values I have got excellent esterification in 1 hour and 30 minutes. Every time I'm awaiting 30 minutes more. Temperature is constant, 58 degrees Celsius. That doesn't mean anything because you don't state the purity of the KOH you used. Since it's probably not 99%+ pure you probably used the wrong amount. We can't accept your claims of excellent esterification [sic] unless you base it on something real. Why do you think it was excellent? What quality tests did you use? Will explain in next few days. Now is midnight and this will be a long letter. - Washing after KOH is more difficult. For me 4-5 washes vs. 3. I think most people have the opposite experience, easier washes. Maybe .. Probably they use better water than mine from kitchen pipe. We use water from the kitchen pipe. People use all kinds of water. They get easier washes because washing after KOH is easier, not more difficult. pH was around 7 after second wash, but some bubbles in the water press me to wash two times more. I want to be clear. First tests with KOH I have washed with cold water, next with NaOH with hot water. Probably the washing process can be with the same quantity, but not extremely difference in process speed, percent of esterification etc. puts the KOH in far corner in my shake. - KOH accepts very faster H2O from the air. From this comes more expensive holding. We used NaOH for years and switched to KOH more than two years ago, we've used a lot of it since then, we live in a humid place and we haven't seen any difference in absorption. And you know every day real water contents? I'm sure KOH is useable too... Come off Vaklin, if there was any significant difference I'd have noticed it and I'd have said so. I said years, not just a couple of virgin test batches. For me interesting is to do ester from fresh rape oil only. Here I can't find reliable source of WVO. - I have expected 100% esterification with KOH, but unfortunately I have got the same ester/glycerin ratio as with NaOH. Conversion never reaches 100% completion. I know, but have read some documents where in closed reactor with 70 degrees Celsius and KOH they has reached 100%. I might believe you if you provide a reference for the documents you've read, otherwise I won't believe you. EthylEsterofRapeOil.pdf This is the name of the document in journeytoforever.com I can send you the file if you want. Link to this file I can't give because I have downloaded all journeytoforever site to my hard. Will be difficult for me to find out where this document is linked. So KOH doesn't cover my hopes. But you seem to have hoped for some odd things. No, just better self value for the product. Sorry, you're demanding some weird and unreasonable things from a catalyst and then giving it the thumbs-down when it doesn't deliver, and apparently blind-eyeing what it does deliver. That's up to you of course, but don't expect people to agree with you. I don't force anyone to agree with me, just share my personal opinion. All this I get from few 200 ml test batches from fresh rape oil. Hm. Best Keith -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database:
Re: [Biofuel] NaOH vs. KOH - Start to end
Hi At 21:58 25.12.05, you wrote: Vaklin, For now I'm living in the jungle, my friend. I'm sure the day when I'll take care about the environment will come soon, but when, nobody knows. I really hope I didn't hear that right. Just what do you propose to do with the glyc cocktail after it settles out of the reaction? Dump it and then the stormwater runoff take it downstream? Wouldn't that be in someone else's drinking water? BTW explain me please (for a future use) if I do my batches with KOH and live in white country White country? Only whities have access to KOH? I really hope I didn't hear that right either I can buy KOH in any quantity. Not this is the goal. White country is a country like USA, Canada, EU etc. where citizens behavior is adequate and salary is adequate too. In these countries is normal to use more environment suitable components and take care about waste products. In another countries called countries from third world important is survive ... how I can save some money. Exactly difference between NaOH and KOH for 1m3 fresh oil is 7.14kg vs. 10kg. In money this means, 5BGN vs. 25BGN. This math doesn't quite fit. A 100% compliment of NaOH per liter of oil costs 5 monetary units and an amount of KOH that performs the same function costs 400% more? Double perhaps (1.4 x 1.0 plus a markup for inventory of a perhaps less widely used status). Again try to explain: 1kg NaOH - 0.70 units 1kg KOH - 2.5 units 2.5 / 0.7 = 3.57 times in price for each kg. 3.57 x 1.4 = 4.998 times in total cost for 100% KOH 4.998 + 10% = 5.4978 times in total cost for 90% KOH. Here KOH is 91-92 % purity. You need to search out your sources whenever and wherever possible, especially if your monetary resources are tight. KOH is a market standard almost anywhere. Divide to 1000 liter I get 0,02 BGN extra cost per liter or about 1.5% up in final price. To cover this extra charge I should have: 1. Fast reaction time. Electricity costs money and no small money. Reaction times are equal. So no profit from here... or 2. Somebody who are ready to pay for waste products. I don't know exactly where is the difference between waste products from sodium and potassium. The recovered NaOH is in the form of sodium phosphate, or worse yet, sodium sulfate. Realistically, neither have any retrievable value. The recovered KOH would be in the form of potassium phosphate, or at worst, potassium sulfate. The former is a fertilizer. How much it's worth per pound is determined by your own marketplace. As for any perception of increased cost by including FFA using phosphoric acid? You have to ask yourself just what price you're already paying for petroleum fuel. If a $20.00 expense can net a 25 gallon savings...? I'll let you do the math. Petroleum diesel here is 1.60-170 BGN for small quantities and -10, 14% for bulk. So, if my is with total cost without the profit up from 1.00-1.05 BGN no reason to do them at all. Again nature and environment are out from calculation. Ideas how to reach something from these points? Yes. A cradle-to-grave cost/benefit analysis using the best prices that can be found from your markets.. Todd Swearingen -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.7/214 - Release Date: 23.12.2005 _. Vaklin Hristov CAR DIAGNOSE Ltd. P.O. Box 79 3320 Kozloduy Bulgaria ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] NaOH vs. KOH - Start to end
Vaklin, White country is a country like USA, Canada, EU etc. where citizens behavior is adequate and salary is adequate too. In these countries is normal to use more environment suitable components and take care about waste products. In another countries called countries from third world important is survive ... Taking care of the environment means survival. I understand the confines of filling immediate needs with limited resources. The hope is that you can examine both very closely and can find that once you get past the superficial examination that the slightly more expensive but more benign route is the more beneficial approach. It all too frequently takes no more effort, money or time to conduct one's affairs in the most beneficial manner all the way around. As for your profit/loss equations? I'm not going to quibble and run around the May pole until we're both churned into butter on this one. However, it's more than evident that FFA recovery would be financially prudent as your petroleum costs exceed what the cost of recovering the oil would be. What minor amount of extra cost the KOH might incur would still be offset by the gains in recovering the FFAs and turning them into biodiesel or using it as boiler stock. I'd encourage you to lay out the process from start to finish with FFA recovery and then plug in the cost differentials of various components/scenarios. If all you're out to do is make the greatest bang for the buck while sacrificing environmental health and perhaps the health of your neighbors and those downstream, then I don't think you're going to find unlimited support on this end. On the other hand, if you wish to make a handsome profit while maintaining environmental health and integrity, others are quite willing to provide almost unlimited resources. Todd Swearingen Hi At 21:58 25.12.05, you wrote: Vaklin, For now I'm living in the jungle, my friend. I'm sure the day when I'll take care about the environment will come soon, but when, nobody knows. I really hope I didn't hear that right. Just what do you propose to do with the glyc cocktail after it settles out of the reaction? Dump it and then the stormwater runoff take it downstream? Wouldn't that be in someone else's drinking water? BTW explain me please (for a future use) if I do my batches with KOH and live in white country White country? Only whities have access to KOH? I really hope I didn't hear that right either I can buy KOH in any quantity. Not this is the goal. White country is a country like USA, Canada, EU etc. where citizens behavior is adequate and salary is adequate too. In these countries is normal to use more environment suitable components and take care about waste products. In another countries called countries from third world important is survive ... how I can save some money. Exactly difference between NaOH and KOH for 1m3 fresh oil is 7.14kg vs. 10kg. In money this means, 5BGN vs. 25BGN. This math doesn't quite fit. A 100% compliment of NaOH per liter of oil costs 5 monetary units and an amount of KOH that performs the same function costs 400% more? Double perhaps (1.4 x 1.0 plus a markup for inventory of a perhaps less widely used status). Again try to explain: 1kg NaOH - 0.70 units 1kg KOH - 2.5 units 2.5 / 0.7 = 3.57 times in price for each kg. 3.57 x 1.4 = 4.998 times in total cost for 100% KOH 4.998 + 10% = 5.4978 times in total cost for 90% KOH. Here KOH is 91-92 % purity. You need to search out your sources whenever and wherever possible, especially if your monetary resources are tight. KOH is a market standard almost anywhere. Divide to 1000 liter I get 0,02 BGN extra cost per liter or about 1.5% up in final price. To cover this extra charge I should have: 1. Fast reaction time. Electricity costs money and no small money. Reaction times are equal. So no profit from here... or 2. Somebody who are ready to pay for waste products. I don't know exactly where is the difference between waste products from sodium and potassium. The recovered NaOH is in the form of sodium phosphate, or worse yet, sodium sulfate. Realistically, neither have any retrievable value. The recovered KOH would be in the form of potassium phosphate, or at worst, potassium sulfate. The former is a fertilizer. How much it's worth per pound is determined by your own marketplace. As for any perception of increased cost by including FFA using phosphoric acid? You have to ask yourself just what price you're already paying for petroleum fuel. If a $20.00 expense can net a 25 gallon savings...? I'll let you do the math. Petroleum diesel here is 1.60-170 BGN for small quantities and -10, 14% for bulk. So, if my is with total cost without the profit up from 1.00-1.05 BGN no reason to do them at all. Again nature and environment are out from calculation. Ideas how to
Re: [Biofuel] NaOH vs. KOH - Start to end
Vaklin This just gets more and more irrational. A couple of comments and I'll leave you to it. snip I have wrote approximately. Exactly the value is as you said. If all you have is an approximate value for such a thing then find an accurate value before you post it, otherwise you're just being lazy, and it doesn't help anyone. OK. Will not post any approximate values anymore! Only third digits after the decimal point. Don't need any sarcasm thankyou. It happens to be a serious issue, whether a newbie like you is aware of it or not. Anybody can make high-quality fuel if they learn the right methods and the right techniques, but sloppy methods and poor-quality fuel are not a thing of the past, and there are plenty of people promoting sloppy methods. But not here. snip - I have expected 100% esterification with KOH, but unfortunately I have got the same ester/glycerin ratio as with NaOH. Conversion never reaches 100% completion. I know, but have read some documents where in closed reactor with 70 degrees Celsius and KOH they has reached 100%. I might believe you if you provide a reference for the documents you've read, otherwise I won't believe you. EthylEsterofRapeOil.pdf This is the name of the document in journeytoforever.com I can send you the file if you want. Link to this file I can't give because I have downloaded all journeytoforever site to my hard. Have you indeed. Including the copyright material in the Biofuels Library it seems. Actually you broke a few laws doing that and could put Journey to Forever in an awkward position. Not that it seems to have done you any good. It doesn't matter how good the information you get might be if you just cherry-pick it here and there and don't even read it properly. I was right not to believe you. I know, but have read some documents where in closed reactor with 70 degrees Celsius and KOH they has reached 100%. You read that in Table 1. Design Matrix for the Experimental Design, for heaven's sake, it doesn't mean they reached 100%. Anyway it's about ethyl esters, not methyl esters, rather a different proposition. It says this in the Abstract: 50% excess ethanol with NaOCH3 or 100% excess with KOH gave a maximum conversion. Further down: The experiments in which different amounts of excess alcohol were used in the reaction mixture showed that an amount in 50% excess of the stoichiometric ratio gave a high conversion when sodium methoxide was the catalyst. Potassium hydroxide catalyst required 100% excess alcohol to achieve similar conversion and phase separation from the glycerin. Although SAS indicated sodium ethoxide, sodium methoxide, and potassium hydroxide all gave good conversions during transesterification, sodium methoxide was chosen as the most promising catalyst due to phase separation considerations described below... But you go charging off trying to get 100% with KOH, using methanol. This is how you do your research? LOL! Will be difficult for me to find out where this document is linked. Here is the url of the paper: Transesterification Process to Manufacture Ethyl Ester of Rape Oil by Roger A. Korus, Dwight S. Hoffman Narendra Barn, Charles L. Peterson, and David C. Drown, Department of Chemical Engineering, University of Idaho, Moscow, Idaho, USA (Acrobat file, 672Kb) http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/EthylEsterofRapeOil.pdf By the way, Bulgaria is not a 3rd World country. Best wishes Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Vaklin Hristov CAR DIAGNOSE Ltd. P.O. Box 79 3320 Kozloduy Bulgaria ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] NaOH vs. KOH - Start to end
For now I'm living in the jungle, my friend. I'm sure the day when I'll take care about the environment will come soon, but when, nobody knows. BTW explain me please (for a future use) if I do my batches with KOH and live in white country how I can save some money. Exactly difference between NaOH and KOH for 1m3 fresh oil is 7.14kg vs. 10kg. In money this means, 5BGN vs. 25BGN. Divide to 1000 liter I get 0,02 BGN extra cost per liter or about 1.5% up in final price. To cover this extra charge I should have: 1. Fast reaction time. Electricity costs money and no small money. or 2. Somebody who are ready to pay for waste products. I don't know exactly where is the difference between waste products from sodium and potassium. Ideas how to reach something from these points? At 06:03 25.12.05, you wrote: You've still got to find end uses for your co-/waste-products. Sodium generates an environmental cost. Potassium generates a monetary and environmental savings. You might care to see how much the savings in fertilizer offsets the higher cost of the catalyst before you make a final decision. Todd Swearingen Vaklin Hristov wrote: Hi! Difference is only in total cost of the product. I'll try to save every cent because the price of biodiesel produced here is very close to bulk price of dynodiesel. I mean biodiesel produced from fresh not refined vegetable oils. So, my decision is NaOH. At 19:06 24.12.05, you wrote: John, Later in the entire process am I missing something that would make using KOH more complicated? KOH makes nothing more complicated. Quite the opposite. See other post on this thread. Todd Swearingen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Everyone seems to use more NaOh in the process. At this point I plan on using KOH even though I must use more. I can purchase 90% KOH for .725/lb and NaOH beads for 51/lb. The time savings and ease in mixing KOH is worth the extra cost. Later in the entire process am I missing something that would make using KOH more complicated? I would be left with Pot Ash. Is there more value to glycerine than pot ash? I have used NaOH so far, but want to switch when my account is finalized. I have been reading the archives but 58,000 messages may take a while to get through. Currently designing my system to do 175 gallons of WVO per batch, 35 gallons Methanol ($2.89 gl). I have access to good supply of stainless cone bottom tank for all tanks. John Frey ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.7/214 - Release Date: 23.12.2005 ã. Vaklin Hristov CAR DIAGNOSE Ltd. P.O. Box 79 3320 Kozloduy Bulgaria ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.7/214 - Release Date: 23.12.2005 _. Vaklin Hristov CAR DIAGNOSE Ltd. P.O. Box 79 3320 Kozloduy Bulgaria ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
Re: [Biofuel] NaOH vs. KOH - Start to end
Hello Vaklin Hi! At 18:29 24.12.05, you wrote: Hello Vaklin My personal opinion, not sure I'm right or not... + KOH dissolves in seconds in CH3OH Some of it does, but it takes about 10 minutes or more to dissolve what you'd use to make a batch. o The process has not faster than one with NaOH No, and also it's not slower. - KOH here is 3 times expensive than NaOH Are you sure? People have said such things but when they had a better look they usually managed to get it for about the same unit price (though you use more), including at least one person in East Europe. Will give prices in BGN (native currency $1.64 = 1BGN) NaOH 0.70 BGN without VAT; KOH 2.50 BGN without VAT. Have found the place where can buy for approx 1.50 BGN, but should drive 300km. Keep trying, I'm sure you'll get there in the end, everyone else did. - You should use approximately 1.5 times (in grams) more KOH Why give only an approximate figure for how much catalyst to use? If it's not accurate it's useless, or worse. You need to use 1.4 times as much (1.4025), and you also have to adjust it for purity. For accurate information please see: More about lye http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#lye I have wrote approximately. Exactly the value is as you said. If all you have is an approximate value for such a thing then find an accurate value before you post it, otherwise you're just being lazy, and it doesn't help anyone. For 250 ml fresh rape oil I have used 2.5g KOH or 1.78 gram NaOH. With these values I have got excellent esterification in 1 hour and 30 minutes. Every time I'm awaiting 30 minutes more. Temperature is constant, 58 degrees Celsius. That doesn't mean anything because you don't state the purity of the KOH you used. Since it's probably not 99%+ pure you probably used the wrong amount. We can't accept your claims of excellent esterification [sic] unless you base it on something real. Why do you think it was excellent? What quality tests did you use? - Washing after KOH is more difficult. For me 4-5 washes vs. 3. I think most people have the opposite experience, easier washes. Maybe .. Probably they use better water than mine from kitchen pipe. We use water from the kitchen pipe. People use all kinds of water. They get easier washes because washing after KOH is easier, not more difficult. - KOH accepts very faster H2O from the air. From this comes more expensive holding. We used NaOH for years and switched to KOH more than two years ago, we've used a lot of it since then, we live in a humid place and we haven't seen any difference in absorption. And you know every day real water contents? I'm sure KOH is useable too... Come off Vaklin, if there was any significant difference I'd have noticed it and I'd have said so. I said years, not just a couple of virgin test batches. - I have expected 100% esterification with KOH, but unfortunately I have got the same ester/glycerin ratio as with NaOH. Conversion never reaches 100% completion. I know, but have read some documents where in closed reactor with 70 degrees Celsius and KOH they has reached 100%. I might believe you if you provide a reference for the documents you've read, otherwise I won't believe you. So KOH doesn't cover my hopes. But you seem to have hoped for some odd things. No, just better self value for the product. Sorry, you're demanding some weird and unreasonable things from a catalyst and then giving it the thumbs-down when it doesn't deliver, and apparently blind-eyeing what it does deliver. That's up to you of course, but don't expect people to agree with you. All this I get from few 200 ml test batches from fresh rape oil. Hm. Best Keith Keep going, good luck. Best Keith Thank you. At 04:12 24.12.05, you wrote: Everyone seems to use more NaOh in the process. At this point I plan on using KOH even though I must use more. I can purchase 90% KOH for .725/lb and NaOH beads for 51/lb. The time savings and ease in mixing KOH is worth the extra cost. Later in the entire process am I missing something that would make using KOH more complicated? I would be left with Pot Ash. Is there more value to glycerine than pot ash? I have used NaOH so far, but want to switch when my account is finalized. I have been reading the archives but 58,000 messages may take a while to get through. Currently designing my system to do 175 gallons of WVO per batch, 35 gallons Methanol ($2.89 gl). I have access to good supply of stainless cone bottom tank for all tanks. John Frey ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
Re: [Biofuel] NaOH vs. KOH - Start to end
Vaklin, For now I'm living in the jungle, my friend. I'm sure the day when I'll take care about the environment will come soon, but when, nobody knows. I really hope I didn't hear that right. Just what do you propose to do with the glyc cocktail after it settles out of the reaction? Dump it and then the stormwater runoff take it downstream? Wouldn't that be in someone else's drinking water? BTW explain me please (for a future use) if I do my batches with KOH and live in white country White country? Only whities have access to KOH? I really hope I didn't hear that right either how I can save some money. Exactly difference between NaOH and KOH for 1m3 fresh oil is 7.14kg vs. 10kg. In money this means, 5BGN vs. 25BGN. This math doesn't quite fit. A 100% compliment of NaOH per liter of oil costs 5 monetary units and an amount of KOH that performs the same function costs 400% more? Double perhaps (1.4 x 1.0 plus a markup for inventory of a perhaps less widely used status). You need to search out your sources whenever and wherever possible, especially if your monetary resources are tight. KOH is a market standard almost anywhere. Divide to 1000 liter I get 0,02 BGN extra cost per liter or about 1.5% up in final price. To cover this extra charge I should have: 1. Fast reaction time. Electricity costs money and no small money. Reaction times are equal. or 2. Somebody who are ready to pay for waste products. I don't know exactly where is the difference between waste products from sodium and potassium. The recovered NaOH is in the form of sodium phosphate, or worse yet, sodium sulfate. Realistically, neither have any retrievable value. The recovered KOH would be in the form of potassium phosphate, or at worst, potassium sulfate. The former is a fertilizer. How much it's worth per pound is determined by your own marketplace. As for any perception of increased cost by including FFA using phosphoric acid? You have to ask yourself just what price you're already paying for petroleum fuel. If a $20.00 expense can net a 25 gallon savings...? I'll let you do the math. Ideas how to reach something from these points? Yes. A cradle-to-grave cost/benefit analysis using the best prices that can be found from your markets.. Todd Swearingen At 06:03 25.12.05, you wrote: You've still got to find end uses for your co-/waste-products. Sodium generates an environmental cost. Potassium generates a monetary and environmental savings. You might care to see how much the savings in fertilizer offsets the higher cost of the catalyst before you make a final decision. Todd Swearingen Vaklin Hristov wrote: Hi! Difference is only in total cost of the product. I'll try to save every cent because the price of biodiesel produced here is very close to bulk price of dynodiesel. I mean biodiesel produced from fresh not refined vegetable oils. So, my decision is NaOH. At 19:06 24.12.05, you wrote: John, Later in the entire process am I missing something that would make using KOH more complicated? KOH makes nothing more complicated. Quite the opposite. See other post on this thread. Todd Swearingen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Everyone seems to use more NaOh in the process. At this point I plan on using KOH even though I must use more. I can purchase 90% KOH for .725/lb and NaOH beads for 51/lb. The time savings and ease in mixing KOH is worth the extra cost. Later in the entire process am I missing something that would make using KOH more complicated? I would be left with Pot Ash. Is there more value to glycerine than pot ash? I have used NaOH so far, but want to switch when my account is finalized. I have been reading the archives but 58,000 messages may take a while to get through. Currently designing my system to do 175 gallons of WVO per batch, 35 gallons Methanol ($2.89 gl). I have access to good supply of stainless cone bottom tank for all tanks. John Frey ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free
Re: [Biofuel] NaOH vs. KOH - Start to end
I would...consider NaOH flakes over beads, usually cheaper...and dbl check that 90% pure KoH is good enough.I'm a fan of the NaOH method because it leaves you with a byproduct that can be used in waste fuel furnaces. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] NaOH vs. KOH - Start to end
Hello Vaklin My personal opinion, not sure I'm right or not... + KOH dissolves in seconds in CH3OH Some of it does, but it takes about 10 minutes or more to dissolve what you'd use to make a batch. o The process has not faster than one with NaOH No, and also it's not slower. - KOH here is 3 times expensive than NaOH Are you sure? People have said such things but when they had a better look they usually managed to get it for about the same unit price (though you use more), including at least one person in East Europe. - You should use approximately 1.5 times (in grams) more KOH Why give only an approximate figure for how much catalyst to use? If it's not accurate it's useless, or worse. You need to use 1.4 times as much (1.4025), and you also have to adjust it for purity. For accurate information please see: More about lye http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#lye - Washing after KOH is more difficult. For me 4-5 washes vs. 3. I think most people have the opposite experience, easier washes. - KOH accepts very faster H2O from the air. From this comes more expensive holding. We used NaOH for years and switched to KOH more than two years ago, we've used a lot of it since then, we live in a humid place and we haven't seen any difference in absorption. - I have expected 100% esterification with KOH, but unfortunately I have got the same ester/glycerin ratio as with NaOH. Conversion never reaches 100% completion. So KOH doesn't cover my hopes. But you seem to have hoped for some odd things. All this I get from few 200 ml test batches from fresh rape oil. Keep going, good luck. Best Keith At 04:12 24.12.05, you wrote: Everyone seems to use more NaOh in the process. At this point I plan on using KOH even though I must use more. I can purchase 90% KOH for .725/lb and NaOH beads for 51/lb. The time savings and ease in mixing KOH is worth the extra cost. Later in the entire process am I missing something that would make using KOH more complicated? I would be left with Pot Ash. Is there more value to glycerine than pot ash? I have used NaOH so far, but want to switch when my account is finalized. I have been reading the archives but 58,000 messages may take a while to get through. Currently designing my system to do 175 gallons of WVO per batch, 35 gallons Methanol ($2.89 gl). I have access to good supply of stainless cone bottom tank for all tanks. John Frey ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] NaOH vs. KOH - Start to end
Evergreen Solutions [EMAIL PROTECTED] I would... consider NaOH flakes over beads, usually cheaper... and dbl check that 90% pure KoH is good enough. 85% is good enough. Please see: More about lye http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#lye I'm a fan of the NaOH method because it leaves you with a byproduct that can be used in waste fuel furnaces. Why do you think the by-product using KOH can't be used in the same way? If your waste oil furnace will burn NaOH by-product it will certainly burn KOH by-product. There are some glycerine by-product sawdust logs burning in our woodstove right now. Previously we used sawdust logs made with NaOH by-peroduct, there's no difference. Best Keith At 04:12 24.12.05, you wrote: Everyone seems to use more NaOh in the process. At this point I plan on using KOH even though I must use more. I can purchase 90% KOH for .725/lb and NaOH beads for 51/lb. The time savings and ease in mixing KOH is worth the extra cost. Later in the entire process am I missing something that would make using KOH more complicated? I would be left with Pot Ash. Is there more value to glycerine than pot ash? I have used NaOH so far, but want to switch when my account is finalized. I have been reading the archives but 58,000 messages may take a while to get through. Currently designing my system to do 175 gallons of WVO per batch, 35 gallons Methanol ($2.89 gl). I have access to good supply of stainless cone bottom tank for all tanks. John Frey ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] NaOH vs. KOH - Start to end
Hi! At 18:29 24.12.05, you wrote: Hello Vaklin My personal opinion, not sure I'm right or not... + KOH dissolves in seconds in CH3OH Some of it does, but it takes about 10 minutes or more to dissolve what you'd use to make a batch. o The process has not faster than one with NaOH No, and also it's not slower. - KOH here is 3 times expensive than NaOH Are you sure? People have said such things but when they had a better look they usually managed to get it for about the same unit price (though you use more), including at least one person in East Europe. Will give prices in BGN (native currency $1.64 = 1BGN) NaOH 0.70 BGN without VAT; KOH 2.50 BGN without VAT. Have found the place where can buy for approx 1.50 BGN, but should drive 300km. - You should use approximately 1.5 times (in grams) more KOH Why give only an approximate figure for how much catalyst to use? If it's not accurate it's useless, or worse. You need to use 1.4 times as much (1.4025), and you also have to adjust it for purity. For accurate information please see: More about lye http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#lye I have wrote approximately. Exactly the value is as you said. For 250 ml fresh rape oil I have used 2.5g KOH or 1.78 gram NaOH. With these values I have got excellent esterification in 1 hour and 30 minutes. Every time I'm awaiting 30 minutes more. Temperature is constant, 58 degrees Celsius. - Washing after KOH is more difficult. For me 4-5 washes vs. 3. I think most people have the opposite experience, easier washes. Maybe .. Probably they use better water than mine from kitchen pipe. - KOH accepts very faster H2O from the air. From this comes more expensive holding. We used NaOH for years and switched to KOH more than two years ago, we've used a lot of it since then, we live in a humid place and we haven't seen any difference in absorption. And you know every day real water contents? I'm sure KOH is useable too... - I have expected 100% esterification with KOH, but unfortunately I have got the same ester/glycerin ratio as with NaOH. Conversion never reaches 100% completion. I know, but have read some documents where in closed reactor with 70 degrees Celsius and KOH they has reached 100%. So KOH doesn't cover my hopes. But you seem to have hoped for some odd things. No, just better self value for the product. All this I get from few 200 ml test batches from fresh rape oil. Keep going, good luck. Best Keith Thank you. At 04:12 24.12.05, you wrote: Everyone seems to use more NaOh in the process. At this point I plan on using KOH even though I must use more. I can purchase 90% KOH for .725/lb and NaOH beads for 51/lb. The time savings and ease in mixing KOH is worth the extra cost. Later in the entire process am I missing something that would make using KOH more complicated? I would be left with Pot Ash. Is there more value to glycerine than pot ash? I have used NaOH so far, but want to switch when my account is finalized. I have been reading the archives but 58,000 messages may take a while to get through. Currently designing my system to do 175 gallons of WVO per batch, 35 gallons Methanol ($2.89 gl). I have access to good supply of stainless cone bottom tank for all tanks. John Frey ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.7/214 - Release Date: 23.12.2005 ã. Vaklin Hristov CAR DIAGNOSE Ltd. P.O. Box 79 3320 Kozloduy Bulgaria ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] NaOH vs. KOH - Start to end
Hi! Difference is only in total cost of the product. I'll try to save every cent because the price of biodiesel produced here is very close to bulk price of dynodiesel. I mean biodiesel produced from fresh not refined vegetable oils. So, my decision is NaOH. At 19:06 24.12.05, you wrote: John, Later in the entire process am I missing something that would make using KOH more complicated? KOH makes nothing more complicated. Quite the opposite. See other post on this thread. Todd Swearingen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Everyone seems to use more NaOh in the process. At this point I plan on using KOH even though I must use more. I can purchase 90% KOH for .725/lb and NaOH beads for 51/lb. The time savings and ease in mixing KOH is worth the extra cost. Later in the entire process am I missing something that would make using KOH more complicated? I would be left with Pot Ash. Is there more value to glycerine than pot ash? I have used NaOH so far, but want to switch when my account is finalized. I have been reading the archives but 58,000 messages may take a while to get through. Currently designing my system to do 175 gallons of WVO per batch, 35 gallons Methanol ($2.89 gl). I have access to good supply of stainless cone bottom tank for all tanks. John Frey ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.7/214 - Release Date: 23.12.2005 ã. Vaklin Hristov CAR DIAGNOSE Ltd. P.O. Box 79 3320 Kozloduy Bulgaria ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] NaOH vs. KOH - Start to end
You've still got to find end uses for your co-/waste-products. Sodium generates an environmental cost. Potassium generates a monetary and environmental savings. You might care to see how much the savings in fertilizer offsets the higher cost of the catalyst before you make a final decision. Todd Swearingen Vaklin Hristov wrote: Hi! Difference is only in total cost of the product. I'll try to save every cent because the price of biodiesel produced here is very close to bulk price of dynodiesel. I mean biodiesel produced from fresh not refined vegetable oils. So, my decision is NaOH. At 19:06 24.12.05, you wrote: John, Later in the entire process am I missing something that would make using KOH more complicated? KOH makes nothing more complicated. Quite the opposite. See other post on this thread. Todd Swearingen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Everyone seems to use more NaOh in the process. At this point I plan on using KOH even though I must use more. I can purchase 90% KOH for .725/lb and NaOH beads for 51/lb. The time savings and ease in mixing KOH is worth the extra cost. Later in the entire process am I missing something that would make using KOH more complicated? I would be left with Pot Ash. Is there more value to glycerine than pot ash? I have used NaOH so far, but want to switch when my account is finalized. I have been reading the archives but 58,000 messages may take a while to get through. Currently designing my system to do 175 gallons of WVO per batch, 35 gallons Methanol ($2.89 gl). I have access to good supply of stainless cone bottom tank for all tanks. John Frey ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.7/214 - Release Date: 23.12.2005 ã. Vaklin Hristov CAR DIAGNOSE Ltd. P.O. Box 79 3320 Kozloduy Bulgaria ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] NaOH vs. KOH - Start to end
Everyone seems to use more NaOh in the process. At this point I plan on using KOH even though I must use more. I can purchase 90% KOH for .725/lb and NaOH beads for 51/lb. The time savings and ease in mixing KOH is worth the extra cost. Later in the entire process am I missing something that would make using KOH more complicated? I would be left with Pot Ash. Is there more value to glycerine than pot ash? I have used NaOH so far, but want to switch when my account is finalized. I have been reading the archives but 58,000 messages may take a while to get through. Currently designing my system to do 175 gallons of WVO per batch, 35 gallons Methanol ($2.89 gl). I have access to good supply of stainless cone bottom tank for all tanks. John Frey ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] NaOH does not dissolve
Sunoco usually sells methanol through their racing gas division. 5 gallons is about 30 bucks [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am sure now that the camp stove fuel must not be methanol . It has been over 24 hours and the lye has not dissolved at all. I thought I had read that the stove fuel would work but I guess I was wrong. On the back of the can it says it contains a refined petroluem naptha. Now I am right or wrong wood naptha is methanol? But again now on looking closer I did not do my homework right because the can says it is petroleum naptha not wood. Oh by the way I am from Pa.. Thank you, Alan ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] NaOH does not dissolve
This is what I found for the chemical compostion of wood naptha used for denaturing ethanol: Composition of wood naptha: There is no prescriptive list of ingredients, but some or all of the following are found in approved synthetic wood naptha: * pyridine, * pyridine bases, * allyl alcohol, * crotenaldehyde, * picolene, * denatonium benzoate, * methyl alcohol. So, it may contain methanol, but it certainly doesn't have to be pure methanol. Petroleum Naptha is a light petroleum distillate, C5-C9 On 11/28/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am sure now that the camp stove fuel must not be methanol . It has been over 24 hours and the lye has not dissolved at all. I thought I had read that the stove fuel would work but I guess I was wrong. On the back of the can it says it contains a refined petroluem naptha. Now I am right or wrong wood naptha is methanol? But again now on looking closer I did not do my homework right because the can says it is petroleum naptha not wood. Oh by the way I am from Pa.. Thank you, Alan ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] NaOH does not dissolve
Hi Alan The cold weather could be a problem. In the summer I put my methanol tank in a 5 gal bucket to cool it since it gets so hot with the mixing process and dissolves in short order. 8 hrs I mix it about every 1/2 hr. but in the cold weather I put the methanol tank in hot tap water to get it started yet I seem to mix it for much longer to get it to dissolve. Hope this helps. Derick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of bob allen Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 5:26 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] NaOH does not dissolve are you sure that it is methanol? camp fuel in my parts- the Ozarks- is white gas , basically gasoline. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am working on making my first batch of Biodiesel and I can not seem to get the NaOH to dissolve in the methanol. I am using Ozark Trail brand stove fuel purchased from WalMart for methanol. I did read on the website that the NaOH can be difficult to dissolve but it has been 18 hours since I have mixed it and little or none appears to have dissolved. I did have the methanol stored in my garage in a sealed container for a month or maybe a little more and the temps were down to 6 degrees Farinenheit. Could these cold tempatures have messed it up? Also I am only trying to mix 5 liters of methanol with 108 grams of NaOH split evenly into two containers because I could not find one container large enough that was translucent. Any ideas or suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Thank you, Alan ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.13.7/182 - Release Date: 11/24/2005 -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves - Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] NaOH does not dissolve
I am working on making my first batch of Biodiesel and I can not seem to get the NaOH to dissolve in the methanol. I am using Ozark Trail brand stove fuel purchased from WalMart for methanol. I did read on the website that the NaOH can be difficult to dissolve but it has been 18 hours since I have mixed it and little or none appears to have dissolved. I did have the methanol stored in my garage in a sealed container for a month or maybe a little more and the temps were down to 6 degrees Farinenheit. Could these cold tempatures have messed it up? Also I am only trying to mix 5 liters of methanol with 108 grams of NaOH split evenly into two containers because I could not find one container large enough that was translucent. Any ideas or suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Thank you, Alan ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] NaOH does not dissolve
are you sure that it is methanol? camp fuel in my parts- the Ozarks- is white gas , basically gasoline. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am working on making my first batch of Biodiesel and I can not seem to get the NaOH to dissolve in the methanol. I am using Ozark Trail brand stove fuel purchased from WalMart for methanol. I did read on the website that the NaOH can be difficult to dissolve but it has been 18 hours since I have mixed it and little or none appears to have dissolved. I did have the methanol stored in my garage in a sealed container for a month or maybe a little more and the temps were down to 6 degrees Farinenheit. Could these cold tempatures have messed it up? Also I am only trying to mix 5 liters of methanol with 108 grams of NaOH split evenly into two containers because I could not find one container large enough that was translucent. Any ideas or suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Thank you, Alan ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.13.7/182 - Release Date: 11/24/2005 -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves - Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] NaOH does not dissolve
I am sure now that the camp stove fuel must not be methanol . It has been over 24 hours and the lye has not dissolved at all. I thought I had read that the stove fuel would work but I guess I was wrong. On the back of the can it says it contains a refined petroluem naptha. Now I am right or wrong wood naptha is methanol? But again now on looking closer I did not do my homework right because the can says it is petroleum naptha not wood. Oh by the way I am from Pa.. Thank you, Alan ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] NaOH
Hi Keith, Seems your right again, though down here in south Alabama most folks would call that opaque, white. Micropearls are mighty small for these old eyes to get a good look at. Anywho, my apologies for any misdirection on my part. Bill Clark - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 10:41 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] NaOH Hi Bill Hi Ray, When I open a new bag of caustic ( I have used NaOH micro pearls and KOH flake) the caustic is as white as snow. It turns opaque when it begins absorbing water. Only after it has absorbed water and been left out does it turn white again due to carbonization. I work with these caustics 2 or 3 times per week. So do I, and I disagree. Fresh: opaque Moisture: translucent Carbonated: white Marc, if you're not sure, don't use it, is the best advice. However, since it's your first test batch, and I guess (hope) it'll only be a litre or so rather than 200 or so, and using virgin oil (fresh, new, uncooked), why not just go ahead and try it. New oil is quite forgiving, used oil progressively less so. If you have problems then replace the lye. As Jan advised, get some pure stuff from a lab supply company. Later, you can use this pure lye as a check against cheaper lye from a hardware store if you're not sure of the quality. Keep it well-sealed and away from moisture. It absorbs moisture from the atmosphere very fast, as soon as it's exposed. Replace the lid tightly as quickly as you can. We measure it out into plastic bags and close them and the container as soon as possible to keep moist air out. For overkill you could do the whole operation inside a big plastic bag, lye, scales, your arms and all. Best wishes Keith Bill Clark - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 7:08 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] NaOH Bill: I have not seen the stuff for a while, but I believe when NaOH is new and anhydrous it is opaque, you can almost see through it. As it absorbs water it turns white. It has been 20 years, so... Ray On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 19:03:45 -0400, Bill Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Marc, When it looks white, it is dry, unless it has all turned to carbonte which is unlikely. Pure anhydrous NaOH is white in appearance and becomes more translucent as it absorbs water. Exposed to the air long enough it will liquify. Hope this helps, Bill Clark - Original Message - From: Marc Arends To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 2:52 AM Subject: [Biofuel] NaOH Hello all, I have a questions before i want to start with making my first test batch with the single stage method. I bought NaOH from a hardware store, but it looks white so it is not pure. Does somebody know how i can mesure the moisture content of this NaOH so i can compensate for all this water? (I can use an oven at my work that can reach 1000 degrees Celsius). Greetings, Marc ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] NaOH
Hello all, I have a questions before i want to start with making my first test batch with the single stage method. I bought NaOH from a hardware store, but it looks white so it is not pure. Does somebody know how i can mesure the moisture content of this NaOH so i can compensate for all this water? (I can use an oven at my work that canreach1000 degrees Celsius). Greetings, Marc ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] NaOH
Hello Marc. If your NaOH is not anhydrous, you should not use it at all. The best way of finding out the water content is to ask your dealer (or his supplier) for a certificate of analysis, where the actual NaOH content along with the impurities should be stated properly. With best regards Jan WarnqvistAGERATEC AB [EMAIL PROTECTED] + 46 554 201 89+46 70 499 38 45 - Original Message - From: Marc Arends To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 9:52 AM Subject: [Biofuel] NaOH Hello all, I have a questions before i want to start with making my first test batch with the single stage method. I bought NaOH from a hardware store, but it looks white so it is not pure. Does somebody know how i can mesure the moisture content of this NaOH so i can compensate for all this water? (I can use an oven at my work that canreach1000 degrees Celsius). Greetings, Marc ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] NaOH
Marc, When it looks white, it is dry, unless it has all turned to carbonte which is unlikely. Pure anhydrous NaOH is white in appearance and becomes more translucent as it absorbs water. Exposed to the air long enough it will liquify. Hope this helps, Bill Clark - Original Message - From: Marc Arends To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 2:52 AM Subject: [Biofuel] NaOH Hello all, I have a questions before i want to start with making my first test batch with the single stage method. I bought NaOH from a hardware store, but it looks white so it is not pure. Does somebody know how i can mesure the moisture content of this NaOH so i can compensate for all this water? (I can use an oven at my work that canreach1000 degrees Celsius). Greetings, Marc ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] NaOH
Bill: I have not seen the stuff for a while, but I believe when NaOH is new and anhydrous it is opaque, you can almost see through it. As it absorbs water it turns white. It has been 20 years, so... Ray On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 19:03:45 -0400, Bill Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Marc, When it looks white, it is dry, unless it has all turned to carbonte which is unlikely. Pure anhydrous NaOH is white in appearance and becomes more translucent as it absorbs water. Exposed to the air long enough it will liquify. Hope this helps, Bill Clark - Original Message - From: Marc Arends To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 2:52 AM Subject: [Biofuel] NaOH Hello all, I have a questions before i want to start with making my first test batch with the single stage method. I bought NaOH from a hardware store, but it looks white so it is not pure. Does somebody know how i can mesure the moisture content of this NaOH so i can compensate for all this water? (I can use an oven at my work that can reach 1000 degrees Celsius). Greetings, Marc ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Ray or Shiraz Ings [EMAIL PROTECTED] 1-613-253-1311 Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] NaOH
Hi Ray, When I open a new bag of caustic ( I have used NaOH micro pearls and KOH flake) the caustic is as white as snow. It turns opaque when it begins absorbing water. Only after it has absorbed water and been left out does it turn white again due to carbonization. I work with these caustics 2 or 3 times per week. Bill Clark - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 7:08 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] NaOH Bill: I have not seen the stuff for a while, but I believe when NaOH is new and anhydrous it is opaque, you can almost see through it. As it absorbs water it turns white. It has been 20 years, so... Ray On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 19:03:45 -0400, Bill Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Marc, When it looks white, it is dry, unless it has all turned to carbonte which is unlikely. Pure anhydrous NaOH is white in appearance and becomes more translucent as it absorbs water. Exposed to the air long enough it will liquify. Hope this helps, Bill Clark - Original Message - From: Marc Arends To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 2:52 AM Subject: [Biofuel] NaOH Hello all, I have a questions before i want to start with making my first test batch with the single stage method. I bought NaOH from a hardware store, but it looks white so it is not pure. Does somebody know how i can mesure the moisture content of this NaOH so i can compensate for all this water? (I can use an oven at my work that can reach 1000 degrees Celsius). Greetings, Marc ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Ray or Shiraz Ings [EMAIL PROTECTED] 1-613-253-1311 Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] NaOH
Hi Bill Hi Ray, When I open a new bag of caustic ( I have used NaOH micro pearls and KOH flake) the caustic is as white as snow. It turns opaque when it begins absorbing water. Only after it has absorbed water and been left out does it turn white again due to carbonization. I work with these caustics 2 or 3 times per week. So do I, and I disagree. Fresh: opaque Moisture: translucent Carbonated: white Marc, if you're not sure, don't use it, is the best advice. However, since it's your first test batch, and I guess (hope) it'll only be a litre or so rather than 200 or so, and using virgin oil (fresh, new, uncooked), why not just go ahead and try it. New oil is quite forgiving, used oil progressively less so. If you have problems then replace the lye. As Jan advised, get some pure stuff from a lab supply company. Later, you can use this pure lye as a check against cheaper lye from a hardware store if you're not sure of the quality. Keep it well-sealed and away from moisture. It absorbs moisture from the atmosphere very fast, as soon as it's exposed. Replace the lid tightly as quickly as you can. We measure it out into plastic bags and close them and the container as soon as possible to keep moist air out. For overkill you could do the whole operation inside a big plastic bag, lye, scales, your arms and all. Best wishes Keith Bill Clark - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 7:08 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] NaOH Bill: I have not seen the stuff for a while, but I believe when NaOH is new and anhydrous it is opaque, you can almost see through it. As it absorbs water it turns white. It has been 20 years, so... Ray On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 19:03:45 -0400, Bill Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Marc, When it looks white, it is dry, unless it has all turned to carbonte which is unlikely. Pure anhydrous NaOH is white in appearance and becomes more translucent as it absorbs water. Exposed to the air long enough it will liquify. Hope this helps, Bill Clark - Original Message - From: Marc Arends To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 2:52 AM Subject: [Biofuel] NaOH Hello all, I have a questions before i want to start with making my first test batch with the single stage method. I bought NaOH from a hardware store, but it looks white so it is not pure. Does somebody know how i can mesure the moisture content of this NaOH so i can compensate for all this water? (I can use an oven at my work that can reach 1000 degrees Celsius). Greetings, Marc ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[biofuel] NaOH Methanol mixing Q
Hello, I can't seem to get lye completely dissolved in the methanol. 3.5g 98.5% NaOH, or 4.5 g NaOH, in 200ml 99.9% methanol - mixing, stirring, letting sit, waiting, magnetic stirring, days and days' waiting, tilting - regardless. There is always a thin white sediment that quickly settles on the bottom of the jar, the liquid is always milky. Is this normal? Is the solution super-saturated? Pierre Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Fwd: Re: [biofuel] NaOH Supply
--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Greg and April [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lye. You can find it at the hardware store or grocery store, on the same isle as drain cleaners, in a can just a bit larger than a soda can. It might be marked with the brand name Red Devil. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Robin Parker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 21:39 Subject: [biofuel] NaOH Supply Is there a typical non-commercial source of sodium hydroxide? I was reading on the journey to forever page that it is something you can get at a hardware store - what would it be called?? Could I just walk in and ask for a bottle/tub of NaOH or is there a layman's term for the stuff? Thanks Robin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- End forwarded message ---
Re: [biofuel] NaOH Supply
If you;re in the US, that would be 'lye' - drain cleaner- the Red Devil brand specifically. It has to be pure 100% lye- (and Red Devil says so on the label in TINY little letters if you squint hard enough). The other odd varieties of drain cleaner (crystal,foaming,newformula,liquid whatever) have other ingredients and wo'n't do the job (and are probably not safe combinations of chemicals to try playing with). Red Devil is still economical enough to make cheap fuel, even though it's 4 or more tiimes as expensive as buying bulk lye- but you won't have to deal with storage if you just buy it a couple cans at a time. Keep it closed- it absorbs moisture from the atmosphere and it can react with carbon dioxide, so measure it quickly... otherwise when you're ready to make large amounts of biodiesel you can get 25 lb or 50 lb bags of 100% (or 99% probably) lye from industrial chemical supply houses. When I buy a big bag like that I divide it quickly into sandwich bags and keep them in a sealed bucket. Try KOH sometime, too- much easier to work with (ie dissolves faster, doesn't absorb moisture as fast and comes in bigger chunks that probably are the cause of that), though it's more expensive and you'd use more... Try and get it in 90% or better purity... good luck, Mark At 08:39 PM 1/20/2003 -0800, you wrote: Is there a typical non-commercial source of sodium hydroxide? I was reading on the journey to forever page that it is something you can get at a hardware store - what would it be called?? Could I just walk in and ask for a bottle/tub of NaOH or is there a layman's term for the stuff? Thanks Robin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT http://rd.yahoo.com/M=241773.2861420.4212388.1925585/D=egroupweb/S=1705083269:HM/A=1394045/R=0/*http://www.hgtv.com/hgtv/pac_ctnt/text/0,,HGTV_3936_5802,FF.html5383f08.jpg 5383fee.jpg Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] NaOH moisture protection
- Original Message - From: Jonathan Pennington [EMAIL PROTECTED] [snip] I guess my worry is that it will absorb significant amounts of water vapor while I'm measuring it for the methoxide. Jonathan, I'm from Tropical North Queensland Oz where the humidity seldom dips below 90%. Weighing out reagent grade pellets sees a slick of moisture develope on them. Have a 10kg pail of NaOH for BD production which is almost empty. NaOH is in form of pearls, no problem with moisture absorption. Just be quick with your weighing, leaving your bulk supply exposed to the moist air for as short a time as possible. Could help to mark up your weighing vessel to approx weights so as to speed the process. Suspect that these pearls might have a thin coating of wax or something to protect them from moist air. Regards, Paul Gobert. -J * Martin Klingensmith [EMAIL PROTECTED] [020421 09:48]: Have you tried putting it in a sealed container? Has anyone tried storing lye in oil to prevent it from absorbing moisture? -- Jonathan Pennington | [EMAIL PROTECTED] It's hard to take life too seriously when you realize yours is a joke. -original Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] NaOH moisture protection
Has anyone tried storing lye in oil to prevent it from absorbing moisture? Here in Coastal South Carolina, USA, the humidity is 75% on a dry day. It might cause a problem when making the sodium methoxide, but then again, I'm still waiting on my supplies, so I haven't played with anything yet. Just a thought. -J -- Jonathan Pennington | [EMAIL PROTECTED] It's hard to take life too seriously when you realize yours is a joke. -original Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] NaOH moisture protection
Have you tried putting it in a sealed container? --- Jonathan Pennington [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Has anyone tried storing lye in oil to prevent it from absorbing moisture? Here in Coastal South Carolina, USA, the humidity is 75% on a dry day. It might cause a problem when making the sodium methoxide, but then again, I'm still waiting on my supplies, so I haven't played with anything yet. Just a thought. -J -- Jonathan Pennington | [EMAIL PROTECTED] It's hard to take life too seriously when you realize yours is a joke. -original Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ = -Martin Klingensmith http://archive.nnytech.net/ http://devzero.ath.cx/ http://www.nnytech.net/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more http://games.yahoo.com/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] NaOH moisture protection
I don't actually have it yet, it's still being shipped. I was just wondering about doing that. I guess my worry is that it will absorb significant amounts of water vapor while I'm measuring it for the methoxide. -J * Martin Klingensmith [EMAIL PROTECTED] [020421 09:48]: Have you tried putting it in a sealed container? Has anyone tried storing lye in oil to prevent it from absorbing moisture? -- Jonathan Pennington | [EMAIL PROTECTED] It's hard to take life too seriously when you realize yours is a joke. -original Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] NaOH UK
Tennants, Hayes or any other chemicals supplier in the yellow pages Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
