[biofuel] Chemistry of washing
When I wash my test batch, it creates a vaccum in the container it is washed in. Obviously some kind of chemical reaction takes place. What could it be? And what does it absorb from the air??? I don't think it is the Co2 or the O2, could it be the N2?? Please enlighten me, or have I bungled it up yet again. Teoman Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Chemistry of washing
Ken Provost wrote: on 8/18/04 5:42 AM, Teoman Naskali at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When I wash my test batch, it creates a vaccum in the container it is washed in. Obviously some kind of chemical reaction takes place. What could it be? And what does it absorb from the air??? Interesting -- I've never noticed that. My guess is that methanol is vaporizing out of the unwashed fuel before you seal the container, displacing air out of the headspace, and then dissolving in the wash water after the container is sealed. Nothing in the air would be taken up by the fuel quickly enough to explain it (O2 reacting with double bonds in unsaturated fatty acid chains would take days, for example). -K Perhaps the air above the biodiesel is warm at first and cools after washing, contracting and creating a vacuum. -- -- Martin Klingensmith http://infoarchive.net/ http://nnytech.net/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Chemistry of washing
Teoman, There is not necessarily any reaction taking place in your wash. Any sealed vessel creates a slight vacuum when it cools. Ask yourself if what your experiencing is nothing more than that. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Teoman Naskali [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 7:42 AM Subject: [biofuel] Chemistry of washing When I wash my test batch, it creates a vaccum in the container it is washed in. Obviously some kind of chemical reaction takes place. What could it be? And what does it absorb from the air??? I don't think it is the Co2 or the O2, could it be the N2?? Please enlighten me, or have I bungled it up yet again. Teoman Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] chemistry
I re-read the article. No doubt about what it says there. I was really working out of my memory the other day, so it«s probable I mixed up the facts. Anyway, if I do find something on the exothermic heating, I«ll let you know. Again, thanks. Chirstian - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 2:33 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] chemistry Thanks Keith. Though I must clear out something... I was talking of HCl, Hydrochloric acid, not Nitric Acid (HNO3), which I do understand is a main chemical in the synthesis of various explosives (a friend of a close friend of mine did pass away in a lab explosion some years ago). Yep, sorry, 'twas a bit late in the night - please see correction posted later. The reference to HCl was found in the Morrison Boyd book on organic chemistry (I think it`s Prentice, or Mc Graw) If you get any positive results with HCl, please let us know. One thing more, somewhere in journeytoforever it said small batches were exothermic enough to maintain the temperature close enough to 55 ¼C. If so, up to what volume is this true? I doubt it - you'll have to find the reference please. The exothermic reaction's over by the time the methoxide's properly mixed and you add it to the oil, I don't see how it could have any effect on maintaining the process temp. Mike Pelly says this, in discussing Test batches: Start by mixing up the lye and methanol in a blender (one that will never be used for food again). First make sure the blender and all utensils used are dry. Forming the exothermal sodium methoxide polar molecule will heat up the blender container a bit. Keep mixing until all the lye has been dissolved. He certainly doesn't say it provides enough heat for the transesterification process itself. Anyway his test batches are with one litre of WVO, the methoxide uses only 150 ml of methanol and 6.25 g NaOH, not very much heat there. I suggest you read it all again. http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_mike.html Biodiesel recipe from Mike Pelly Best wishes Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ Thanks for the advice concern. Regards, Christian Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ __ mensaje enviado desde http://www.iespana.es emails (pop)-paginas web (espacio ilimitado)-agenda-favoritos (bookmarks)-foros -Chat Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Tiny Wireless Camera under $80! Order Now! FREE VCR Commander! Click Here - Only 1 Day Left! http://us.click.yahoo.com/WoOlbB/7.PDAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] chemistry
Please excuse my chemical terms in english. I was wondering if you could clear a couple of things I had mixed up: Greases/oils (are they called fatty acid esters in english?) (CH2OCOR-CHOCOR«-CH2OCOR) and methanol (CH3OH) form Glicerol and BD (3 RCOOR)... right? Now this reaction needs either an acid or base catalyst (E.g., dry H2SO4 or HCl... HCl? That's how you'll blow yourself away, like Alfred Nobel's brother and many many others. This is what it says among all the info in journeytoforever: CAUTION: If you run out of sulfuric acid NEVER try to make up the required volume with nitric acid. It may form small quantities of nitroG (nitroglycerine) -- even the smallest amount can cause horrible accidents. See High Explosives: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html#nitrog By the way, I don't think NaOH is a true catalyst in the process. As I understand it (?), a catalyst doesn't take part in a process, merely facilitating it, and should be recoverable intact once the process is complete. You don't get to recover the NaOH (or KOH, nor even H2SO4) from transesterification (or esterification), though there may be traces in the wash water. Anyways, just follow the instructions carefully and you'll be right. If you use a single-stage process, it pays to take extra care with accurate titration, especially with heavily used cooking oils. If you do it right you won't get much soap, if any. With methoxide, I think it's the other way round: the mixing forms the compound and produces an exothermic reaction. Anyway, just mix it thoroughly (and carefully!!), be accurate with your measures. Make mini-batches first, with one or two litres, until you get used to the process. Observe all the safety precautions. Best Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ OR NaOH) (here is where I get mixed up).. but NaOH would react with the greases/oils to form glicerol soap (3RCOONa)... So I assume the Sodium methoxide is a more efficient catalyst because it doesen«t form as much soap? On the other hand, I traditionally thought sodium methoxide CH3O(-)Na(+) was synthesised mainly from dry alcohols and metallic sodium (difficult to find + expensive + dangerous). But from what I gather from all the info in journeytoforever, just mixing methanol and NaOH (lye) produces an exothermic reaction which forms sodium methoxide. ÀIs this the catalyst or a reactant? If it is a catalyst, is it the dissociated (is that how you say it?) sodium from the CH3ONa that reacts with the fatty esters (greases/oils) to form the bothersome soap which is so important to get rid of in the washing stages? I know all this sounds a bit too chemical, but if anyone feels comfortable enough to speak in these terms, please enlighten me a bit. Tank you. (+ Happy new year) Regards, Christian Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Tiny Wireless Camera under $80! Order Now! FREE VCR Commander! Click Here - Only 1 Day Left! http://us.click.yahoo.com/WoOlbB/7.PDAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] chemistry
Please excuse my chemical terms in english. I was wondering if you could clear a couple of things I had mixed up: Greases/oils (are they called fatty acid esters in english?) (CH2OCOR-CHOCOR«-CH2OCOR) and methanol (CH3OH) form Glicerol and BD (3 RCOOR)... right? Now this reaction needs either an acid or base catalyst (E.g., dry H2SO4 or HCl... HCl? That's how you'll blow yourself away, like Alfred Nobel's brother and many many others. This is what it says among all the info in journeytoforever: Whoops! Sorry - that's hydrochloric acid not nitric acid. (Need some sleep!) Anyway, use sulphuric acid (H2SO4). Best Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ CAUTION: If you run out of sulfuric acid NEVER try to make up the required volume with nitric acid. It may form small quantities of nitroG (nitroglycerine) -- even the smallest amount can cause horrible accidents. See High Explosives: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html#nitrog By the way, I don't think NaOH is a true catalyst in the process. As I understand it (?), a catalyst doesn't take part in a process, merely facilitating it, and should be recoverable intact once the process is complete. You don't get to recover the NaOH (or KOH, nor even H2SO4) from transesterification (or esterification), though there may be traces in the wash water. Anyways, just follow the instructions carefully and you'll be right. If you use a single-stage process, it pays to take extra care with accurate titration, especially with heavily used cooking oils. If you do it right you won't get much soap, if any. With methoxide, I think it's the other way round: the mixing forms the compound and produces an exothermic reaction. Anyway, just mix it thoroughly (and carefully!!), be accurate with your measures. Make mini-batches first, with one or two litres, until you get used to the process. Observe all the safety precautions. Best Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ OR NaOH) (here is where I get mixed up).. but NaOH would react with the greases/oils to form glicerol soap (3RCOONa)... So I assume the Sodium methoxide is a more efficient catalyst because it doesen«t form as much soap? On the other hand, I traditionally thought sodium methoxide CH3O(-)Na(+) was synthesised mainly from dry alcohols and metallic sodium (difficult to find + expensive + dangerous). But from what I gather from all the info in journeytoforever, just mixing methanol and NaOH (lye) produces an exothermic reaction which forms sodium methoxide. ÀIs this the catalyst or a reactant? If it is a catalyst, is it the dissociated (is that how you say it?) sodium from the CH3ONa that reacts with the fatty esters (greases/oils) to form the bothersome soap which is so important to get rid of in the washing stages? I know all this sounds a bit too chemical, but if anyone feels comfortable enough to speak in these terms, please enlighten me a bit. Tank you. (+ Happy new year) Regards, Christian Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] chemistry
Thanks Keith. Though I must clear out something... I was talking of HCl, Hydrochloric acid, not Nitric Acid (HNO3), which I do understand is a main chemical in the synthesis of various explosives (a friend of a close friend of mine did pass away in a lab explosion some years ago). The reference to HCl was found in the Morrison Boyd book on organic chemistry (I think it`s Prentice, or Mc Graw) One thing more, somewhere in journeytoforever it said small batches were exothermic enough to maintain the temperature close enough to 55 ¼C. If so, up to what volume is this true? Thanks for the advice concern. Regards, Christian [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Send FREE Holiday eCards from Yahoo! Greetings. http://us.click.yahoo.com/IgTaHA/ZQdDAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] chemistry water
Dear Bryan, I got a bit mixed up with the water... ÀWhich reaction produces it? If this is an equilibrium reaction, Àcan«t you turn it towards the products side by adding more meth? Best, Christian [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Tiny Wireless Camera under $80! Order Now! FREE VCR Commander! Click Here - Only 1 Day Left! http://us.click.yahoo.com/WoOlbB/7.PDAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] chemistry
Thanks Keith. Though I must clear out something... I was talking of HCl, Hydrochloric acid, not Nitric Acid (HNO3), which I do understand is a main chemical in the synthesis of various explosives (a friend of a close friend of mine did pass away in a lab explosion some years ago). Yep, sorry, 'twas a bit late in the night - please see correction posted later. The reference to HCl was found in the Morrison Boyd book on organic chemistry (I think it`s Prentice, or Mc Graw) If you get any positive results with HCl, please let us know. One thing more, somewhere in journeytoforever it said small batches were exothermic enough to maintain the temperature close enough to 55 ¼C. If so, up to what volume is this true? I doubt it - you'll have to find the reference please. The exothermic reaction's over by the time the methoxide's properly mixed and you add it to the oil, I don't see how it could have any effect on maintaining the process temp. Mike Pelly says this, in discussing Test batches: Start by mixing up the lye and methanol in a blender (one that will never be used for food again). First make sure the blender and all utensils used are dry. Forming the exothermal sodium methoxide polar molecule will heat up the blender container a bit. Keep mixing until all the lye has been dissolved. He certainly doesn't say it provides enough heat for the transesterification process itself. Anyway his test batches are with one litre of WVO, the methoxide uses only 150 ml of methanol and 6.25 g NaOH, not very much heat there. I suggest you read it all again. http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_mike.html Biodiesel recipe from Mike Pelly Best wishes Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ Thanks for the advice concern. Regards, Christian Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Tiny Wireless Camera under $80! Order Now! FREE VCR Commander! Click Here - Only 1 Day Left! http://us.click.yahoo.com/WoOlbB/7.PDAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] chemistry
Please excuse my chemical terms in english. I was wondering if you could clear a couple of things I had mixed up: Greases/oils (are they called fatty acid esters in english?) (CH2OCOR-CHOCOR«-CH2OCOR) and methanol (CH3OH) form Glicerol and BD (3 RCOOR)... right? Now this reaction needs either an acid or base catalyst (E.g., dry H2SO4 or HCl... OR NaOH) (here is where I get mixed up).. but NaOH would react with the greases/oils to form glicerol soap (3RCOONa)... So I assume the Sodium methoxide is a more efficient catalyst because it doesen«t form as much soap? On the other hand, I traditionally thought sodium methoxide CH3O(-)Na(+) was synthesised mainly from dry alcohols and metallic sodium (difficult to find + expensive + dangerous). But from what I gather from all the info in journeytoforever, just mixing methanol and NaOH (lye) produces an exothermic reaction which forms sodium methoxide. ÀIs this the catalyst or a reactant? If it is a catalyst, is it the dissociated (is that how you say it?) sodium from the CH3ONa that reacts with the fatty esters (greases/oils) to form the bothersome soap which is so important to get rid of in the washing stages? I know all this sounds a bit too chemical, but if anyone feels comfortable enough to speak in these terms, please enlighten me a bit. Tank you. (+ Happy new year) Regards, Christian [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Send FREE Holiday eCards from Yahoo! Greetings. http://us.click.yahoo.com/IgTaHA/ZQdDAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
