Re: [swinog] Swiss ISPs and IPv6 --- 2016 edition

[Roger Schmid]

Maybe .. But i do not spend money nor time to do some "missionary work" for 
what reason ever there is when stuff doesn't work. I've done it for years with 
spammer friendly hoster which even see the abuse box is a Spam trap,  and all 
the so called number one hoster which never take care about what there client 
do if they pay the rent.
In short if a system start to apply some exploits they are blacklisted after 
second try without notice... 
If ipv6 starts to troubling and hits my reputation because of some quirks in 
transfer .. I stop supporting it when ever  possible.
Business goes before idealism .. 

Em 20 de setembro de 2016 15:52:18 AMT, Gregor Riepl  
escreveu:
>> Unfortunately the people who misconfigure do not read RFCs, if they
>did,
>> they would not filter.
>> 
>> They do not read this list either, let alone other resources that
>they
>> should be reading. Hence... not something one can solve.
>
>BUT: If you find such a person, you can strongly urge them to read this
>RFC. ;)
>
>
>
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Re: [swinog] Swiss ISPs and IPv6 --- 2016 edition

[Gregor Riepl]

> Unfortunately the people who misconfigure do not read RFCs, if they did,
> they would not filter.
> 
> They do not read this list either, let alone other resources that they
> should be reading. Hence... not something one can solve.

BUT: If you find such a person, you can strongly urge them to read this RFC. ;)



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Re: [swinog] Swiss ISPs and IPv6 --- 2016 edition

[Jeroen Massar]

On 2016-09-20 19:40, Gregor Riepl wrote:
>> That does not make IPv6 broken though, that makes people who think they
>> have to filter the wrong things broken.
>>
>> Misconfigurations is not something a protocol can solve.
> 
> There's an RFC for that: https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4890.txt
> Great document, even serves as a good primer for folks who are new to IPv6.

Unfortunately the people who misconfigure do not read RFCs, if they did,
they would not filter.

They do not read this list either, let alone other resources that they
should be reading. Hence... not something one can solve.

Greets,
 Jeroen



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Re: [swinog] Swiss ISPs and IPv6 --- 2016 edition

[Gregor Riepl]

> That does not make IPv6 broken though, that makes people who think they
> have to filter the wrong things broken.
> 
> Misconfigurations is not something a protocol can solve.

There's an RFC for that: https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4890.txt
Great document, even serves as a good primer for folks who are new to IPv6.



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Re: [swinog] Swiss ISPs and IPv6 --- 2016 edition

[Jim Romaguera]

Well the point wasn't a personal purchase point.

But taking the viewpoint of "someone" who may be deploying / deciding on 
the deployment of IPv6 in the enterprise, BYOD, etc environments.


With one in two SmartPhones in CH Android, the advice of telling 50% of 
your customers / users to "go Apple" may not be the best approach for 
convincing such a "someone".


Seriously, any proposed solutions / approaches (besides requesting 
google to change their mind), that have actually been used somewhere, 
would be welcomed?


Cheers JIm


On 20.09.2016 16:24, Jeroen Massar wrote:

On 2016-09-20 15:58, Jim Romaguera wrote:

On 20.09.2016 15:40, Jeroen Massar wrote:

Anybody has a proper excuse? :)

No I don't have an excuse but interested in the communities (& your)
opinion re your challenge...

o DHCPv6 re Android re enterprise, BYOD, PWLAN, etc environments

Is a problem or was a problem / no problem at all?

One person at Google decided that they do not want to properly want to
support IPv6 even though people have been asking for it...

https://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=32621
http://www.techrepublic.com/article/androids-lack-of-dhcpv6-support-poses-security-and-ipv6-deployment-issues/
etc etc


And even if they finally change their mind:
  https://developer.android.com/about/dashboards/index.html
you will never get the correct version on the devices

I am still waiting for the new 7.x to pop up on that chart ;)
I mean, it is only out for a month now...

Hey look, IOS 10.x is at 25% already:
   https://david-smith.org/iosversionstats/
while that was released, what, a week ago? :)

Hence, just buy a different device, Android is hopeless...

Greets,
  Jeroen

 well CyanogenMod might be useful, but they do not have DHCPv6
either afaik...



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Re: [swinog] Swiss ISPs and IPv6 --- 2016 edition

[Jeroen Massar]

On 2016-09-20 15:58, Jim Romaguera wrote:
> 
> On 20.09.2016 15:40, Jeroen Massar wrote:
>>
 Anybody has a proper excuse? :)
> 
> No I don't have an excuse but interested in the communities (& your)
> opinion re your challenge...
> 
> o DHCPv6 re Android re enterprise, BYOD, PWLAN, etc environments
> 
> Is a problem or was a problem / no problem at all?

One person at Google decided that they do not want to properly want to
support IPv6 even though people have been asking for it...

https://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=32621
http://www.techrepublic.com/article/androids-lack-of-dhcpv6-support-poses-security-and-ipv6-deployment-issues/
etc etc


And even if they finally change their mind:
 https://developer.android.com/about/dashboards/index.html
you will never get the correct version on the devices

I am still waiting for the new 7.x to pop up on that chart ;)
I mean, it is only out for a month now...

Hey look, IOS 10.x is at 25% already:
  https://david-smith.org/iosversionstats/
while that was released, what, a week ago? :)

Hence, just buy a different device, Android is hopeless...

Greets,
 Jeroen

 well CyanogenMod might be useful, but they do not have DHCPv6
either afaik...



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Re: [swinog] Swiss ISPs and IPv6 --- 2016 edition

[Jim Romaguera]

On 20.09.2016 15:40, Jeroen Massar wrote:



Anybody has a proper excuse? :)


No I don't have an excuse but interested in the communities (& your) 
opinion re your challenge...


o DHCPv6 re Android re enterprise, BYOD, PWLAN, etc environments

Is a problem or was a problem / no problem at all?

Cheers JIm




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Re: [swinog] Swiss ISPs and IPv6 --- 2016 edition

[Jeroen Massar]

On 2016-09-20 15:29, Gert Doering wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On Tue, Sep 20, 2016 at 03:20:56PM +0200, Jeroen Massar wrote:
>> On 2016-09-20 14:56, René Gallati wrote:
>> [..]
>>> I've activate IPv6 in my home network in 2011
>>
>> 2011, thus 5 years after 6bone had shut down and 12 years after RIR
>> space has been available. Welcome to IPv6! ;)
>>
>> /me waves at DE-SPACE-19990812 as well, Gert is on this list likely ;)
> 
> ... which was allocated about two years after we had our first IPv6 router
> running... that box was decommissioned about 10 years *ago*... :-)

You decommissioned the box *10 years ago* and people still do not have
IPv6, hahaha ! :)

>> Anybody has a proper excuse? :)
> 
> "I can make much more money by selling multi-stage NAT boxes and consulting
> services to go with it"!

Which is ABSOLUTELY true, similarly:

"I can make more money by keeping people on IPv4 and then moving them at
the last moment to IPv6 when they are willing to pay for it"

or:

"Lets put all the consumers on DS-Lite and sell the IPv4 addresses to
businesses with a heavy heavy profit"...

Greets,
 Jeroen




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Re: [swinog] Swiss ISPs and IPv6 --- 2016 edition

[Gert Doering]

Hi,

On Tue, Sep 20, 2016 at 03:20:56PM +0200, Jeroen Massar wrote:
> On 2016-09-20 14:56, René Gallati wrote:
> [..]
> > I've activate IPv6 in my home network in 2011
> 
> 2011, thus 5 years after 6bone had shut down and 12 years after RIR
> space has been available. Welcome to IPv6! ;)
> 
> /me waves at DE-SPACE-19990812 as well, Gert is on this list likely ;)

... which was allocated about two years after we had our first IPv6 router
running... that box was decommissioned about 10 years *ago*... :-)

> Anybody has a proper excuse? :)

"I can make much more money by selling multi-stage NAT boxes and consulting
services to go with it"!

Gert Doering
-- NetMaster
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Re: [swinog] Swiss ISPs and IPv6 --- 2016 edition

[René Gallati]

On 20.09.2016 13:00, Roger Schmid wrote:

Just one .. Dropping MTU handling and point to layer7 should handle that
doesnt let you feel strange ? So how could an app handle packet size
thru L4 ?


Uh what now? In IPv4 you have the DF don't fragment bit in the IP 
header, if set and exceeds a router link, you get an ICMP message back 
that says fragmentation needed. Your OS handles all this stuff, your 
application requests and gets a "pipe" to push data through transparently.


In IPv6 the IP header does no longer contain that bit. It's always 
implied on and if you hit a router where a packet is too big, you'll get 
an ICMPv6 packet too big message back. Your OS handles all this stuff, 
your application requests and gets a "pipe" to push data through 
transparently.


Whenever you want to meddle with such mechanisms, your OS may or may not 
provide socket hints to programatically influence parameters of said 
pipe. This is OS dependent and - per sé - has nothing to do with how 
well IPv6 runs or does not run as it is absolutely not required.


I've activate IPv6 in my home network in 2011 and have never had any 
problem with it, neither slowdowns nor slow loading pages. Or rather, I 
do have some slow loading pages, that are all excessivly loading some 
flash js and other ad stuff. They do the same thing on v4 only as well 
and are just as slow there.


I do run my own caching-only DNS server, but if this is what is causing 
"slow page loads", that too is pretty much not v6's problem.


v6 works for the average and even "pro" end user and has been for many 
years.


Kind regards



My experience is soma pages ar crawling like a snake .. Some ar not
loading complete at all,
for me v6 is still not ready to deploy to the masses as at least the
mentioned flaw is a show stopper

Em 20 de setembro de 2016 02:13:39 AMT, Jeroen Massar 
escreveu:

On 2016-09-19 23:53, Roger Schmid wrote:

|Come on folks, it is 2016! IPv6 is
|*20 years* old...
But still not matured enough to put on public usage


According to Google 10% of their traffic is IPv6.
Apple requires it for IOS.

How is it not 'mature'?

beside of some
design flaw it is in some cases even bad implemented


Need more details.

Maybe the isp/hoster/transit provider ned some teaching how to
do it the
right way.


Management of companies need to be convinced. Technical folks
typically
know that they want it, but are not allowed to play with it...

That is not a technical, but a political issue.

Greets,
 Jeroen



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Re: [swinog] Swiss ISPs and IPv6 --- 2016 edition

[Roger Schmid]

Thats why i mentuoned to train techis and your argunent was its a management 
problem :)

About mandatory how come then 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Path_MTU_Discovery  .. Sorry to point to 
Wikipedia .. But been on cell only i dont have the proper doc at hand


Em 20 de setembro de 2016 07:09:10 AMT, Jeroen Massar  
escreveu:
>On 2016-09-20 13:00, Roger Schmid wrote:
>> Just one .. Dropping MTU handling and point to layer7 should handle
>that
>> doesnt let you feel strange ? So how could an app handle packet size
>> thru L4 ?
>
>Both IPv4 and IPv6 have this little protocol called ICMP (+ICMPv6) it
>is
>very useful and for IPv6 it is mandatory.
>
>Even Google (who force MSS to magic values) and Cloudflare had issues
>with that too:
>
>https://blog.cloudflare.com/path-mtu-discovery-in-practice/
>
>That does not make IPv6 broken though, that makes people who think they
>have to filter the wrong things broken.
>
>Misconfigurations is not something a protocol can solve.
>
>> My experience is soma pages ar crawling like a snake .. Some ar not
>> loading complete at all,
>> for me v6 is still not ready to deploy to the masses as at least the
>> mentioned flaw is a show stopper
>
>I can find many many sites in IPv4 that are brokenly configured. That
>does not make IPv4 broken.
>
>That you find weird excuses that are already solved for well over 15
>years of deployment (even 6bone as shut down 10 years ago)
>
>Maybe, as it is 2016, time to actually start deploying!?
>
>Greets,
> Jeroen

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Re: [swinog] Swiss ISPs and IPv6 --- 2016 edition

[Jeroen Massar]

On 2016-09-20 13:00, Roger Schmid wrote:
> Just one .. Dropping MTU handling and point to layer7 should handle that
> doesnt let you feel strange ? So how could an app handle packet size
> thru L4 ?

Both IPv4 and IPv6 have this little protocol called ICMP (+ICMPv6) it is
very useful and for IPv6 it is mandatory.

Even Google (who force MSS to magic values) and Cloudflare had issues
with that too:

https://blog.cloudflare.com/path-mtu-discovery-in-practice/

That does not make IPv6 broken though, that makes people who think they
have to filter the wrong things broken.

Misconfigurations is not something a protocol can solve.

> My experience is soma pages ar crawling like a snake .. Some ar not
> loading complete at all,
> for me v6 is still not ready to deploy to the masses as at least the
> mentioned flaw is a show stopper

I can find many many sites in IPv4 that are brokenly configured. That
does not make IPv4 broken.

That you find weird excuses that are already solved for well over 15
years of deployment (even 6bone as shut down 10 years ago)

Maybe, as it is 2016, time to actually start deploying!?

Greets,
 Jeroen



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Re: [swinog] Swiss ISPs and IPv6 --- 2016 edition

[Roger Schmid]

Just one .. Dropping MTU handling and point to layer7 should handle that doesnt 
let you feel strange ? So how could an app handle packet size thru L4 ? 

My experience is soma pages ar crawling like a snake .. Some ar not loading 
complete at all, 
for me v6 is still not ready to deploy to the masses as at least the mentioned 
flaw is a show stopper

Em 20 de setembro de 2016 02:13:39 AMT, Jeroen Massar  
escreveu:
>On 2016-09-19 23:53, Roger Schmid wrote:
>> |Come on folks, it is 2016! IPv6 is
>> |*20 years* old...
>> But still not matured enough to put on public usage
>
>According to Google 10% of their traffic is IPv6.
>Apple requires it for IOS.
>
>How is it not 'mature'?
>
>> beside of some
>> design flaw it is in some cases even bad implemented
>
>Need more details.
>
>> Maybe the isp/hoster/transit provider ned some teaching how to do it
>the
>> right way.
>
>Management of companies need to be convinced. Technical folks typically
>know that they want it, but are not allowed to play with it...
>
>That is not a technical, but a political issue.
>
>Greets,
> Jeroen

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Re: [swinog] Swiss ISPs and IPv6 --- 2016 edition

[Benoit Panizzon]

> Management of companies need to be convinced. Technical folks
> typically know that they want it, but are not allowed to play with
> it...

Oh, I have heard a lot of tech excuses:

* Why should I bother with IPv6? IPv4 works fine!
* There could be potential security issues with IPv6, so better not use
  it!
* I don't have much experience with IPv6, so better not use it!
* I need to add each rule twice on that firewall, that's too
  complicated and error prone!
* Most of the customer accessing this service don't have IPv6, so why
  should it be reachable via IPv6?

etc.

-Benoît Panizzon-
-- 
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Re: [swinog] Swiss ISPs and IPv6 --- 2016 edition

[Jeroen Massar]

On 2016-09-19 23:53, Roger Schmid wrote:
> |Come on folks, it is 2016! IPv6 is
> |*20 years* old...
> But still not matured enough to put on public usage

According to Google 10% of their traffic is IPv6.
Apple requires it for IOS.

How is it not 'mature'?

> beside of some
> design flaw it is in some cases even bad implemented

Need more details.

> Maybe the isp/hoster/transit provider ned some teaching how to do it the
> right way.

Management of companies need to be convinced. Technical folks typically
know that they want it, but are not allowed to play with it...

That is not a technical, but a political issue.

Greets,
 Jeroen




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Re: [swinog] Swiss ISPs and IPv6 --- 2016 edition

[Roger Schmid]

|Come on folks, it is 2016! IPv6 is 
|*20 years* old...
But still not matured enough to put on public usage, beside of some design flaw 
it is in some cases even bad implemented

Maybe the isp/hoster/transit provider ned some teaching how to do it the right 
way.

Em 15 de setembro de 2016 06:11:44 AMT, Jeroen Massar  
escreveu:
>As there is an upcoming SwiNOG lets throw some people under the bus
>before they arrive. Or at least allow them time to come up with more
>excuses.
>
>
>Some quotes from Swiss ISPs from the Call Your ISP page:
>  https://www.sixxs.net/wiki/Call_Your_ISP_for_IPv6
>
>8<
>
>"Currently, as demand for IPv6 is very low, we have no plans to
>introduce IPv6 native.
>
>"No plans to support IPv6 for our private and SoHo clients"
>
>"The plan is to move everyone on DSLite."
>
>"Provider info: IPv6 is "planned" and soon should get a priority
>status.
>When that "soon" will be is not yet known."
>
>"They know what IPV6 is, eventually they will provide it"
>
>>8
>
>Come on folks, it is 2016! IPv6 is *20 years* old...
>
>Even Sky.uk was able to get it working[1].
>
>Oh and note: Dual-stack IPv4 + IPv6, along with a /56 per user.
>
>It is not that hard to get right and yeah, you kinda had 20 years
>already to 'plan' for this
>
>Greets,
> Jeroen
>
>
>[1]
>https://corporate.sky.com/media-centre/news-page/2016/sky-completes-roll-out-of-ipv6-becoming-the-first-major-uk-internet-provider-to-future-proof-its-service-for-customers
>
>
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Re: [swinog] Swiss ISPs and IPv6 --- 2016 edition

[Jeroen Massar]

On 2016-09-15 20:04, Gert Doering wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 12:11:44PM +0200, Jeroen Massar wrote:
>> Oh and note: Dual-stack IPv4 + IPv6, along with a /56 per user.
> 
> What do you want this IPv4 stuff for?  That's even, like, 40+ years old.

To access those ISPs that didn't bother to move yet ;)

Greets,
 Jeroen




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Re: [swinog] Swiss ISPs and IPv6 --- 2016 edition

[Gert Doering]

Hi,

On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 12:11:44PM +0200, Jeroen Massar wrote:
> Oh and note: Dual-stack IPv4 + IPv6, along with a /56 per user.

What do you want this IPv4 stuff for?  That's even, like, 40+ years old.

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