Re: [OSM-talk] Internet cable map
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/4.12/ffglass.html On 10/17/2011 10:40 AM, yvecai wrote: As far as I know, submarine data cables are highly strategic. You can see on the map linked they are only few of them but carrying 99% of the information between continents. I am certain it would be pretty hard to guess their position, so even Janko proposal may be hard to achieve, unless you tag the 'Apollo' cable ends at the Lannion (F) and and Shirley (NY) townhall. Yves On 17. 10. 11 15:36, Janko Mihelic' wrote: I think only cable starts and ends should be mapped, and tagged in a standardised way. If that is all we have, that is all we should map. Then cable starts and ends could be put in a relation with a name, number and tags like that. Janko 2011/10/17 Matthias Meißer dig...@arcor.de mailto:dig...@arcor.de Am 17.10.2011 tel:17.10.2011 13:39, schrieb Pierre-Alain Dorange: Matthias Meißerdig...@arcor.de mailto:dig...@arcor.de wrote: Looks like a wonderful resource :) Maybe you could get in contact with user:Bahnpirat that does a lot of work concerning Powerlines, so I guess he is interested in communication lines, too. Just means that this is authentic and so just give it try :) Do you dare to contact that company, Pierre? Would be great! I can try to contact this company, but my english is medium (i'm french speaker). But Toby is probably right, the only real (acurate) geographical dat is start and end point of this cables. Yes of course, but isn't this the principle of OSM? Start with something raw and improve it step by step :D cya Matthias ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-us] US local chapter board election results
Well done all, good luck and looking forward to seeing what you accomplish! :-) On 10/12/2011 11:32 AM, Michal Migurski wrote: Hey, cool! Thanks everyone. I'm excited to get started with Martijn, Randy, Jim, and Richard. According to the wiki page there is a monthly chapter meeting tomorrow, but the most recent one was six months ago. I'll dial the number tomorrow and see what happens. =) -mike. On Oct 12, 2011, at 9:49 AM, Richard Weait wrote: Dear All, The results of the US local chapter board election have been received and found to be valid. Fourteen valid ballots were received from 50% of the eligible members. I would like to thank the outgoing members of the board for their service to the community. I would also like to thank all of the candidates for offering to serve for the next year. Richard Welty, was re-elected. Martijn, Randy, Jim and Mike were each elected. You can find the detailed results on the wiki, http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Foundation/Local_Chapters/United_States/Elections Best regards, Richard Weait, independent scrutineer, on behalf of, Jonathan Bennett, independent scrutineer, Ian Dees, member of outgoing board. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us michal migurski- m...@stamen.com 415.558.1610 ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] US local chapter board election results
I'd urge you guys to think about /community/ as well as /technology/. Import some Weait's or something. Steve On 10/12/2011 12:03 PM, Michal Migurski wrote: Hand off agenda is a great idea. My computing habits mean that IRC is probably unrealistic for me. As far as goals for this year, I know that Ian has been building a server intended for hosting tile renders. I'd like to see that continue with a US-specific tile layer ready for public consumption six months from now. Another idea I'd love discuss are extracts designed to assess the quality of OSM data on a county by county basis. I think this can be done in an automated fashion borrowing some of the ideas introduced by Geofabrik's Inspector, ultimately resulting in a regularly-produced summary of data quality for each of the 3000+ counties in the US. Anyway, 'til tomorrow. -mike. On Oct 12, 2011, at 1:47 PM, Jim McAndrew wrote: I agree about the idea of the handoff agenda, but with or without, I will also be in the meeting tomorrow. We should at least go in with some goals on what we plan to accomplish this year, and discuss if those goals are practical and how we can work together to help each other with our goals, and how our goals fit with the goals of the greater OSM US. I'm going to try to be on the IRC channel more often as well. On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 12:39 PM, Richard Weaitrich...@weait.com wrote: On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 2:32 PM, Michal Migurskim...@stamen.com wrote: Hey, cool! Thanks everyone. I'm excited to get started with Martijn, Randy, Jim, and Richard. According to the wiki page there is a monthly chapter meeting tomorrow, but the most recent one was six months ago. I'll dial the number tomorrow and see what happens. =) Perhaps the outgoing board can help you to put together an agenda, here on the list? I'm sure they'll have some thoughts on a smooth transition as well. Also #osm-us is a low traffic irc channel that might work for you. #osm-us is on irc.oftc.net, and available from the browser at http://irc.openstreetmap.org/ michal migurski- m...@stamen.com 415.558.1610 ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] OSM US Chapter elections and
On 9/15/2011 11:56 AM, Jim McAndrew wrote: There has been some informal talk about when the elections are coming up. I think with SOTM this year, things have been more focused on that than the elections. SOTM was largely organised by OSMF and the working group with some funds channeled through the US. With the greatest respect to those involved, I think it's better to just put the issue on the table that HOT took everyones time and not a lot of progress has been made with OSMFUS. That was great for HOT, as you can see, but OSMFUS needs people on the next board with the time to make the progress it needs, if for no other reason than showing those upstairs in Canada what we can do ;-) Steve I'm not a member of the board, although I am running this time around, but this is my understanding of the questions: * Where are the financial reports? o The secretary most likely has these, if they are published, I'm not sure how current they are * What assets does the Chapter have? e.g cash, investments, servers and other hardware o The cash number would probably be in the financial report, there are servers and some schwag * Who administers the server resources? (Ian and ?) o I believe that Ian is doing at least 90% of this * Will administration of the servers change after the election? o I think Ian is pretty set on doing this, but if he isn't on the new board, we may want to have him bring someone else up to speed * What are Chapter servers being utilized for now? o This is a very good question, I think it's mostly imports and bots, but I really don't know * What are the ongoing operations and maintenance costs for the servers? o These are pretty minimal right now, this should also be answered in the financial report * What projects are going on now or will be started after the election, o There are a number of subgroups that are all linked from the OSM US Chapter page on the wiki + http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Foundation/Local_Chapters/United_States * and what are the financial commitments? o I'm not sure on this, it would be on the financial reports as well * How many members are there? o I believe it to be 25ish * Has the Technical, Education Student Outreach or US Tagging working groups ever met? o The groups as a whole haven't, but each board member is responsible for one or more groups, and the board members voice the group concerns I hope my view of these situations at least gets some people talking on this subject. I don't know if my answers are 100% right, but it should be enough to get the ball rolling on these issues. -- Jim McAndrew @JimmyRocks On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 11:30 AM, Richard Weait rich...@weait.com mailto:rich...@weait.com wrote: On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 1:12 PM, Josh Doe j...@joshdoe.com mailto:j...@joshdoe.com wrote: I'm having trouble finding any information about the elections for the OSM US chapter, The 2010 election was held in August, by email. So it's probably a bit late this year. Minutes from meetings since March, if any, are missing from http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Call_Minutes ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org mailto:Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [OSM-talk] twitter handling
Chris * Remote searches aren't guaranteed to be accurate. Therefore you're probably missing posts. I do all the time. * There are lots of search terms, OSM, openstreetmap, #openstreetmap, open streetmap, open street map ... Therefore you're probably missing posts. * Chicken and egg. No OSM answers supplied today - so why would there be lots of questions? Personally I want the OSM attitude to be that's a fun idea, let's try it. This costs us basically nothing, if it doesn't work we can kill it. With a bit of luck though, it will result in more mapping. Steve On 9/8/2011 8:43 AM, Chris Fleming wrote: On 08/09/2011 00:20, SteveC wrote: There are a bunch of people asking things on twitter about OSM that we miss. Or people saying nice things that we should be retweeting. I'm looking for a solution. Mozilla has this: http://support.mozilla.com/en-US/army-of-awesome and I'm in touch with them to see if the src is available. I have a saved openstreetmap twitter search and keep an eye on it. I think only twice I've actually replied to people looking for help on opensteetmap most of it's people talking about osm or various bots. Have I missed something here? Although I can't see setting up the mozilla army of awesome doing any harm, although excluding various OSM bots will be needed. Helping people into the community isn't a bad thing; most people won't signup the first time they land on the openstreetmap page, and once they've signed up it may be some time before they edit. One regular at our Edinburgh meetups signed up after seeing a talk I did, but didn't start to edit for 2 years. So, using channels to remind people and about OSM and give them a gentle push in the right direction won't do any harm; and a professional use of twitter is just part of that. The @OpenStreetMap account has over 6000 followers (although a good number are certainly spam) and I would like to see a bit more posting than when there is a blog posting and the occasional retweet. So interesting press coverage or uses of OSM, etc. Cheers Chris ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] twitter handling
On 9/8/2011 11:30 AM, Frederik Ramm wrote: Hi, On 09/08/2011 05:20 PM, SteveC wrote: * Chicken and egg. No OSM answers supplied today - so why would there be lots of questions? +1 to Mikel: Let's answer questions by pointing people to our existing support infrastructure; not by trying to create another support infrastructure (one of the disadvantages of which is that after a few hours no second person will profit from the answer given because it is not archived). To *encourage* people to use twitter as a support medium would be detrimental. Personally I want the OSM attitude to be that's a fun idea, let's try it. This costs us basically nothing You're free to answer tweets like anyone else is free to do, and indeed does already. That doesn't cost anything indeed. Setting up a project that bundles peoples' time by enticing them to take part in your fun idea will ONLY cost us nothing if these people were NOT using their time to help OSM before. If, on the other hand, by giving twitter users the impression that they will be personally cared for if they just shout out their problems, you create an atmosphere where experienced OSMers will spend much more time to personally tend to such questions (because participation is drawn away from media like help.osm.org where answers are archived and because new users are not encouraged to search for answers in these well-redacted media), then this does indeed lower the overall quality of service we can provide because our resources are limited. I suppose it's a sign of the project's maturity that we discuss rather than solve problems. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Pre SOTM gathering
blake street sports/dive bar for the NFL is where many are headed On 9/8/2011 3:40 PM, Gregory Arenius wrote: Are there any pre-SOTM gatherings going on this evening? Or failing that can anybody recommend a brewery to get one going at? Cheers, Greg ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] twitter handling
There are a bunch of people asking things on twitter about OSM that we miss. Or people saying nice things that we should be retweeting. I'm looking for a solution. Mozilla has this: http://support.mozilla.com/en-US/army-of-awesome and I'm in touch with them to see if the src is available. Anyone have any better ideas? Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-ca] BC Open Data License compatibility
On 9/4/2011 6:51 PM, john whelan wrote: The issue with using data like this with OSM is when you contribute it under the new contribution terms you accept that OSM can change the license at a later date. Practically speaking it makes it impossible to respect any other license so currently only PD data and things you have explicitly mapped yourself are safe. In the OSM talk thread there are people who seem to think that all imports are bad and I suspect the license change clause was put in by them to discourage imports. No, it was put in because we didn't want to have a rerun of all this mess if something better came along next time. Steve Cheerio John On 4 September 2011 19:35, Russell Porter cont...@russellporter.com mailto:cont...@russellporter.com wrote: Hi, What is the status on the BC Open Data site launched earlier this year? License: http://www.data.gov.bc.ca/dbc/admin/terms.page? It looks fine to me, but i know licensing is a big problem with osm. In particular, i am looking at doing a manual import of protected areas amd hiking trails (I imported a bunch of NrCan protected areas a while back) Finally, another license question. Since Sam V. (across canada trails) released his contribs as PD, cant i just re-import them into OSM on my account under odbl? Thanks, Russell ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org mailto:Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
[OSM-talk] featured image
Very funny - it's my heatmap, right? Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How to start to remove non-CT compliant data..
things have changed since then, might be worth revisiting On 8/31/2011 5:48 AM, Richard Fairhurst wrote: Ed Avis wrote: Why not do what Wikipedia did and work together with the licence authors (in this case Creative Commons and Open Data Commons) to provide an automatic upgrade clause? Then nothing need be deleted. I expressly asked this a couple of years ago: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/legal-talk/2009-February/001971.html and was told no: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/legal-talk/2009-February/001982.html cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/How-to-start-to-remove-non-CT-compliant-data-tp6744723p6746371.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-us] Mapping Party SLC
Would love to come if I can find a cheap flight, let us know when you pick a date. On 8/27/2011 10:28 AM, Martijn van Exel wrote: Hi all, I want to organize a mapping party here in Salt Lake City. Are there any Salt Lake locals on this list? The wiki page[1] is sparse on social happenings here so there may not have been any before. Does anyone have connections with local organizations / government / University that could be helpful? Does OSM US have any resources to support mapping parties? I have a few GPSes and a dozen or so hi-viz OSM surveyors vests. The latter I would be happy to lend out by the way. Right now they are still on the Atlantic somewhere with all my other stuff, in transit from Amsterdam. Best Martijn [1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Salt_Lake_City ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Refusing CT but declaring contributions as PD
On 8/24/2011 8:56 AM, Simon Poole wrote: But probably the buck would stop with the OSMF. Distributing data just because somebody on the web said it was PD has a high likelihood of being considered negligent. You need to search around for safe harbor provisions. Steve Simon Am 24.08.2011 17:45, schrieb yar...@gmail.com: If you lie about your ability to PD data, you are liable for the effects. Whatever you do or don't sign. - Rob. -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen g.grem...@cetest.nl wrote: Signing (clicking) the CT explicitly transfers the liability of the suitability to the contributor, where declaring PD does not. The Board wants us to sign a contract with them. It's not about data but about compliance. Regards, Gert Gremmen, -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: Richard Fairhurst [mailto:rich...@systemed.net] Verzonden: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 3:53 PM Aan:legal-talk@openstreetmap.org Onderwerp: [OSM-legal-talk] Refusing CT but declaring contributions as PD There's a curious statement in the LWG minutes for 2nd August (https://docs.google.com/View?id=dd9g3qjp_1252tt382df). Folks who have declined the new contributor terms but said their contributions are public domain. There has been a suggestion that such contributions should be maintained in the current OSM database even after a switch to ODbL. A very small number of contributors have declined the new contributor terms and asserted that the their contributions are in the public domain. This does not mean that the collective data in the OSM database is public domain. Their 'PD' position contradicts the explicit decline. Therefore the LWG takes the position that their contributions cannot be published under ODbL without acceptance of the contribut[or terms]. (I think the two contributors affected by this are Tim Sheerman-Chase and Florian Lohoff, but there may be others.) I'm a little puzzled by this. Asserting that one's contributions are in the public domain is saying, in the words of the disclaimer used on Wikipedia and on the OSM wiki, I grant anyone the right to use my contributions for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law. Therefore I don't see any reason why the data cannot be included in OSM. The contributor has given a grant of all rights - not just copyright, but any database right or indeed other right that might exist. There is no difference between (say) TimSC's PD data and the TIGER PD data, but we're not requiring the US Census Bureau to sign the terms.[1] The minute says Their 'PD' position contradicts the explicit decline, which seems to me to be true legally but not politically. There are people who do not wish to enter into a formal agreement with OSMF, and though I think they're mistaken, they doubtless have their own reasons. What am I missing? What exactly is meant by the collective data in the OSM database? cheers Richard [1] I am diplomatically ignoring the fact that there is no proof that US Federal data is public domain _outside_ the States ;) legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-talk] A happy birthday OpenStreetMap song from Nagoya Japan
On 8/20/2011 9:57 PM, Shu Higashi wrote: http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/16768642/highlight/195864 Not all the members are OSMers though ;-) Shu Higashi ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk that is awesome :-) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSMF elections
I would encourage everyone to have a think about running for the board and look to what you can contribute. Be aware when thinking about it that we have a lot of work to do and meet frequently. That might impact your work and social life, it's not a ceremonial role, just ask Henk :-) The upside is that you're deeply involved with one aspect of helping things move along in the project, but you don't get a window seat. Steve On 8/15/2011 3:27 AM, Kate Chapman wrote: Hi Richard, Is how many positions are open and which positions available? Thanks, Kate On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 2:30 PM, Richard Weaitrich...@weait.com wrote: In prior years the elections were held at an AGM with proxy votes by email for those not able to attend. Last year, the OSMF board election was held at SotM - Girona, with the same proxy votes by email. this was seen as an improvement and will be the method used this year as well. We're coming up on SotM Denver. It's less than a month away now. Which means that the official notification of the AGM and board election will be coming up soon. If I remember correctly the AGM was held at lunch in Girona. That may well be the case in Denver, too. So if you have been thinking about standing for election to the OSMF board, if you have issues that you would like to see discussed by candidates, if you have suggestions and requests for those involved, now is a good time to start putting things in order. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [talk-au] ATTN Steve Coast st...@asklater.com RE Active Australian OSM contributors in light of CT/license changes
Don't know how I can reply to someone who explicitly declares they don't want to change their mind or debate. In amongst the vitriol is perhaps a nugget that's worth responding to, this idea that somehow everyone on talk-au is 80n's puppet, is of course absurd. Unless you prove this isn't just another puppet email account however, I have no reason to believe all blokes isn't just yet another email address for John smith, Anthony or friends are hiding behind. Steve stevecoast.com On Jul 8, 2011, at 0:51, All Blokes speed_13...@yahoo.com.au wrote: I have not had very much to say on this but I have been reading the posts fairly closely. I would not in any way presume to speak for any other Australians other than myself, but I object most strenuously to the implication that I have in some way been perverted by 80n or any other person at all. when I first heard of the licence change and how it was being done I didnt like it I had not even read a post against it at that stage and I didn't post one either . I make my own mind up. I'm just a dumb busted a*se bulldozer driver so Im sure you would be able to out debate me on this steve but mate winning the debate does not mean that you are right. I'm not entering into a debate about the pros and cons of this licence against that licence. I don't want to have my mind changed. I've made it myself and if I change it I will do that myself too. I have not signed up for any other mapping group yet. Time is an issue for me at the moment and I figure I can wait and see what happens anyway. I'm sad to see that OSM has become what it is but I am not interested in being involved with the organisation as it currently is. I have not talked to anyone on the phone or in the pub about OSM or FOSM I think your time zone differences excuse is rubbish frankly. I think your threat to come out to Australia and debate this in the pub with 80n as if that would sway people frankly is pretentious like you think a lot of people care so much about your point of view to come??? Come on just pinch yourself as you read that, Steve so that you have a reality check. You definitely have your best Australian audience right now. If you care to come out you will be welcome but if you want to debate 80n this forum is your best chance and It does not appear, to me FWITW that you are doing so well at making your points against him. Like I said I'm not some great orator and I'm not even very experienced about OSM but I don't like the way it has been taken or where it has gone to. Regards, Paul. You've been very successful at perverting certain sections of the community, Australia being a good example as the checks and balances of normal community communication are harder because of the timezone differences and costs of flying. Essentially, people in Australia don't get to hear from the rest of us on the phone or in the pub and we let you spam the lists for a long time. So to an outsider it can look like you're this rational guy who used to be on the board and so on. I've heard about the various conspiracy theories you've been peddling personally off-list too. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] missing messages
On Jul 8, 2011, at 2:14, Sam Couter s...@couter.id.au wrote: Steve Coast st...@asklater.com wrote: It's been pointed out that I'm not replying to hundreds of messages from John Smith, Anthony and friends. I don't see them as they're automatically deleted. I find life is better without having the trolls fill my inbox. I really don't know how to respond to this level of immature bullshit. However, if I have missed any reasonable points in there then feel free to repost them, just don't put those guys email addresses in the to/from/cc fields... And waste my electrons? You don't seem to think any point you disagree with is reasonable or worth responding to. You simply dismiss anybody who disagrees with you as a troll without consideration. Looks like you don't have an actual point to discuss other than what I think about a few of the anonymous people on this and other lists, surely there must be something more important? How could we get more mappers perhaps, or where we can find more aerial imagery? As it happens however, my view that John smith and others are trolls is widely held. And unless you have anything to discuss other than you believing what I write to be bullshit I'm afraid you will go in the same bucket. Steve ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Active Australian OSM contributors in light of CT/license changes
Sam Underlaying your attacks is the notion that I dismiss people who disagree with me, or that I can't understand different points of view. I find that strange given my rational responses to several disagreements on this list and outlaying where I feel misunderstandings have come from. I have also agreed with the points of view of several people but still shared why I came to a different conclusion while still understanding their perspective. Thus, it's difficult to understand why you feel I'm being dismissive. Steve stevecoast.com PS - Your ad hominem attack, while not bad, isn't as piercing as the good old days on the talk@ list. If you go back over that list I'm sure you can find much stronger words than brat used. By using those old posts you should be able to construct far more cutting and personal jibes. Perhaps mention my mother, or the size of my genitalia. By doing so, I'm sure you will achieve your goals. PPS - I too was adolescent and used to attach PGP fingerprints to my e-mails. It's sad we don't use more encryption. On Jul 8, 2011, at 2:28, Sam Couter s...@couter.id.au wrote: Steve Coast st...@asklater.com wrote: [ rubbish about Australians being led astray by some guy] It's hard to fix that, however I am resourceful. You're an immature brat who thinks shouting loudest and longest means you win the argument. That's not resourcefulness. It's impossible to carry on any kind of rational debate with someone who can't comprehend that others may disagree with them. The first step is to meet your clownmails message-for-message so you don't automatically have the loudest voice. By pointing out the simple facts and having you talk past them and get to the real issues (you want to rile people like me up, make us fret and worry) it is now clear to a rational observer what the intentions are. Here's what this rational and until now unengaged observer sees: You are a closed-minded person who assumes people who disagree with you are doing it for the lulz rather than because they genuinely have a different opinion. I don't know who 80n is or what he's done, so don't dismiss my opinion as just another rube being led astray. I think your nightmare scenario is that I fly to Australia and sit in the pub and discuss the real reasons you're so upset. Please do so. Your communication skills in this medium are atrocious, maybe in person you're not such an arse. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Active Australian OSM contributors in light of CT/license changes
On Jul 8, 2011, at 2:57, Sam Couter s...@couter.id.au wrote: Steve Coast st...@asklater.com wrote: We've gone to insanely long lengths to make that the case, including getting clarifications from Ordnance Survey, Nearmap and many others. As far as I'm aware there are no remaining issues as to why you can't click 'accept'. The solution to the problem of We chose a licence and impose terms on contributors that's incompatible with most sources of data isn't to go to each source of data individually to try to get them to relicence. That's as ridiculous as choosing a GPL-incompatible software licence and then whining that you can't legally incorporate all those wonderful GPL licenced projects into yours. I wouldn't say we chose it. We were told by legal that cc didn't work, so we spent a lot of time evolving the odbl (originally started by cc folks) and the CTs. It might look from that side of the planet that it was a hand of god type decision, but that's not the case. It's been multiple years of work around every possible solution. Also, your frame of reference is with OSM up and running and having these kinds of relationships. When I started OSM we had no data at all and nobody wanted to give us data under any license, let alone cc. So those of us who climbed the mountain to get those people to give us data see asking people to switch (such as ordnance survey for example) as a far smaller problem. So while no doubt nearmap is a great resource and it's a shame they no longer want to be involved, it's clear that the majority do - even large sclerotic government institutions are being agile and helpful about this. I don't think you understand the depths of recalcitrance when it comes to the Australian government. I think I have an idea, I used to campaign around issues like identity cards and encryption in Britain. Having data released under CC licences at all was a huge leap, there's effectively zero chance of OSM being able to licence the data under ODbL. The federal and state governments just don't care. Im confused that I was discussing nearmap but you jumped to the government, what am I missing? In any case, as someone who built this project and has convinced many organizations and government agencies to open up, I urge you to have a longer timeframe outlook. These types of agencies tend to get with it in the end. Even the ordnance survey has, for example. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Active Australian OSM contributors in light of CT/license changes
On Jul 8, 2011, at 3:10, Sam Couter s...@couter.id.au wrote: SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: Sam Underlaying your attacks is the notion that I dismiss people who disagree with me, or that I can't understand different points of view. I find that strange given my rational responses to several disagreements on this list and outlaying where I feel misunderstandings have come from. I have also agreed with the points of view of several people but still shared why I came to a different conclusion while still understanding their perspective. Thus, it's difficult to understand why you feel I'm being dismissive. You blame misunderstandings on trolls instead of genuine disagreement, No, John smith and friends are a separate issue, they troll many different discussions. you have stated multiple times there's no reason to decline the CT's, Actually no, I've said im unaware of any reasons not to accept (given we fixed near map, we fixed ordnance survey...) which is not the same as saying there aren't any. you have denied any problems with licence incompatibility. Where did I do that? I think I mention multiple times how many problems we have had in many areas. These aren't rational responses of someone who accepts that others have differring opinions. PS - Your ad hominem attack, while not bad, isn't as piercing as the good old days on the talk@ list. If you go back over that list I'm sure you can find much stronger words than brat used. By using those old posts you should be able to construct far more cutting and personal jibes. Perhaps mention my mother, or the size of my genitalia. By doing so, I'm sure you will achieve your goals. I hate to sound like a third-grader, but you started the ad hominem. I did, where? I don't like to do it and I definitely wasn't going for piercing. PPS - I too was adolescent and used to attach PGP fingerprints to my e-mails. It's sad we don't use more encryption. 8/10. I nearly bit. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] missing messages
On Jul 8, 2011, at 3:11, Sam Couter s...@couter.id.au wrote: SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: As it happens however, my view that John smith and others are trolls is widely held. And unless you have anything to discuss other than you believing what I write to be bullshit I'm afraid you will go in the same bucket. I didn't really expect anything different given our differing opinions. I am unaware of where our opinions differ? I think you will find we are actually very close in agreement. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Active Australian OSM contributors in light of CT/license changes
This reads like you disagree with taxation or death. I do too, but there's not much I can do about it. The vast majority of people are happy with where we are at and now it's down to people holding out because of a comma in the wrong place or a moral objection to various aspects of intellectual property law. While I agree that it's not perfect, I don't see how it's reasonable to throw everything away for one guy who doesn't like his countries laws. Unless you have a reasonable solution or I have misunderstood? Steve stevecoast.com On Jul 7, 2011, at 19:10, James Andrewartha tr...@student.uwa.edu.au wrote: On 7 July 2011 22:55, Steve Coast st...@asklater.com wrote: On 7/7/2011 7:40 AM, waldo000...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 4:25 PM, Steve Coast st...@asklater.com wrote: You've been very successful at perverting certain sections of the community, Australia being a good example ... Steve, please don't underestimate the ability of Australia to filter bullshit. I just want to: 1) be able to contribute with the confidence that my data will never be deleted. We've gone to insanely long lengths to make that the case, including getting clarifications from Ordnance Survey, Nearmap and many others. As far as I'm aware there are no remaining issues as to why you can't click 'accept'. As I said in an email to you, I disagree with the concept of a database right, or using contract law to emulate it, which has no precedent in Australia. Also, I dislike contributor agreements in free software projects, and the CTs are a similar concept. They restrict the use of data from governments and other third parties. Now, there is an argument over whether that data should be kept separate as layers, but I haven't seen that discussed at all. Finally, as I read it the Nearmap grant doesn't let me relicense my existing CC-BY-SA contributions as ODbL as I hadn't signed the CT when I made them. 2) continue using nearmap, which is insanely awesome. Not being a shareholder I can't influence them directly. As far as I'm aware, their issue is that they don't like the fact that we can change license later even though it's restricted to a free and open license. For all practical purposes I doubt we will ever change again unless and until CC release 4.0 which is mooted that it will contain provisions for data licensing. It's a simple balance between making sure the data remains open but also not going through this horrific license process again in the future if, for example, CC is suddenly better in 3-5 years time. Disclosure: I am a shareholder; I bought shares partly because they used OSM for their maps. So while no doubt nearmap is a great resource and it's a shame they no longer want to be involved, it's clear that the majority do - even large sclerotic government institutions are being agile and helpful about this. The door, as ever, is open should nearmap every change their minds. However, due to the CT governments have to contribute their data directly rather than letting even more agile citizens do it for them. James Andrewartha ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Active Australian OSM contributors in light of CT/license changes
I would phrase it that the vast majority aren't lawyers and don't want to become one, therefore don't know the implications of the problems with cc. That is all this is predicated upon, lawyers say that cc doesn't work for data. If they didn't say that then we would never have gone down this road. I guess for your second paragraph - there are objections to the CTs but we are at a point where I believe there would be objections to however the CTs turned out. They're as reasonable a balance as we can make, I think. The next step is to switch, and then if and when CC 4 comes out and is applicable to data then it's a simple process to change to that. Of course, in theory its a simple to change to switch from our current cc to the future one, but then we have this big gap where it doesn't apply. Steve stevecoast.com On Jul 7, 2011, at 20:41, James Livingston li...@sunsetutopia.com wrote: On 8 July 2011 13:26, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: The vast majority of people are happy with where we are at From what I've read on ML posts, and from what was reported about the last SotM meeting (I wasn't there), the vast majority of people don't care and would be happy with the status quo, would be happy with CTs+OdBL, and quite a decent fraction would be happy with PD too. I'm not saying that the anti-ODbL group is larger than the pro-ODbL one, but that most people are neutral and will go with whatever happens. and now it's down to people holding out because of a comma in the wrong place or a moral objection to various aspects of intellectual property law. I don't really see how a group of people complaining about things in the CTs or ODbL (some of which are moral objections, some are technical objection) is really that different from a group of people complaining that CC-BY-SA isn't suitable. I think about all we can say is that not everyone agrees, and people also have different opinions on how many people are in each camp. -- James ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Active Australian OSM contributors in light of CT/license changes
What you say mike is mostly reasonable apart from the control bit. It's a democratically elected nonprofit, so it's hard to cast that as a dictatorship. Steve stevecoast.com On Jul 7, 2011, at 20:47, Mike Dupont jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com wrote: On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 2:35 PM, Chris Barham cbar...@pobox.com wrote: Personally I don't care about the licence. I feel that the forks and this resulting dilution of effort will become a drain on all the projects (united we stand/divided etc etc), and have become a shouting match where the 'political' goals of the forked projects are trumpeted over the stated reason for the thing being there - an open map. Cries of We're more open don't help when you can't rustle up the hosting fees or development volunteers. So a fork must become popular. More popular than other forks or the parent project. Was this the real reason for your post with mention of FOSM (and no other OSM spin-offs), and seeding fear uncertainty and doubt regarding *possible* data deletion.. you were recruiting? My reasons for helping out are simple, because there are more chances to develop software if there is a not a monolithic database. There are more possibilities for OSM if everything is not in the control of a few people. The only way to be able to negotiate is to be in a position to negotiate, so being able to fork is an important part in not having to fork. Already we have developed new and innovative solutions and more. I am also willing to work with osm as much as possible. A fork does not have to be anything bad, and to be honest I see the new license as a fork, a forced one. what we are doing is just setting up the tools and resources for people to continue, and these tools and technologies are needed by everyone and everyone will benefit. mike ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Active Australian OSM contributors in light of CT/license changes
Actually, the license process has been known about for a long, long time so it's not this new turnaround you cast it as. In addition, everyone else (bing, ordnance survey...) has worked with us very reasonably. In fact it's hard to say near map have been unreasonable, just that they were not quite as happy as all our other contributors of similar data. As for this 'uk mob' thing, that too is unreasonable. As a democratically elected board, we have members from many countries and you are invited to get involved or run for election. Its certainly difficult to integrate the eu, us and au communities when the timezones are so hard to overlap. I am all ears on how we could fix that. It would be wonderful if someone from au could make it to SOTM. In fact they are running a video competition to pay for the costs of someone to attend. Lastly, I'll say that I fell out with the last person to ask for my loyalty rather than my integrity or honesty. There is a big distinction. Steve stevecoast.com On Jul 7, 2011, at 16:24, David Murn da...@incanberra.com.au wrote: On Thu, 2011-07-07 at 08:11 -0700, Steve Coast wrote: Why did you stop then? Is there no aerial imagery where you are other than nearmap? Theres this thing in Australia called loyalty. You seem to understand very little about Australian culture. Its almost the height of rudeness after someone sets up a business to donate goods to your project, to then turn around and say 'unless you change your business model, we dont want anything to do with you anymore'. With the amount of effort that has been gone to to secure the data used in Australia to be suitable for OSM, only to have some UK mob make changes to spit in the face of all our donors, its very little wonder why the masses here have little respect for those who cause trouble after we'd gone to such lengths to ask everyone to be compatible with OSM. David On 7/7/2011 8:03 AM, waldo000...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 4:55 PM, Steve Coast st...@asklater.com wrote: ...I believe we should spend energy enlightening aerial providers (or wait for them to catch up) Yup, I'm waiting... (I just wanted to point out why I have stopped contributing - it's not in protest, and not because I've been perverted by 80n. Thanks for your responses anyway.) ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.
How will fosm (assuming it reaches the stage of being functional) continue to sync with OSM when the licenses are incompatible? Steve On Jun 22, 2011, at 11:18 AM, 80n wrote: On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 5:15 PM, Jaakko Helleranta.com jaa...@helleranta.com wrote: As I suggest in the subject line: I'd really love us not to punish the world's disadvantaged with our license/CT disagreements. That's why fosm.org exists. No data will get deleted. It will continue to exist and can be updated at fosm.org. If you are worried that your data is threatened then that's because you are now looking in the wrong place. Fosm has more data than OSM already and will continue to sync with all OSM updates as well as accepting new updates directly. OSM is not trying to punish anyone, its just that the community thinks that less data under a different license is better for them. If you are happy with the way things were then you don't have to lose anything, just change your URL from osm.org to fosm.org. 80n ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk Steve stevecoast.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-us] Appearing Sign
Dear all A OSM sign has mysteriously appeared at a US battleship museum in Albany, NY without a note. Does anyone have a clue why? If not, is anyone near Albany and can go pick it up for reuse? Steve On Jun 22, 2011, at 9:06 AM, Rosehn Gipe wrote: Nothing else. No box. No note. Just the sign. The sign has the magnifying glass over map image and: Open Street Map www.openstreetmap.org The Free Wiki World Map On 6/22/2011 11:33 AM, SteveC wrote: Okay. We are a 400,000 strong volunteer community, do you have any other clues to go on? What does the sign say? Who was it from? Steve stevecoast.com On Jun 22, 2011, at 8:30, Rosehn Gipeg...@ussslater.org wrote: The sign is for Open Street Maps. On 6/22/2011 11:26 AM, SteveC wrote: I don't know why you're asking me? Steve stevecoast.com On Jun 22, 2011, at 8:21, Rosehn Gipeg...@ussslater.org wrote: Good Morning-- A large popupstand sign was left on our doorstep yesterday. No one here has any idea as to why. We're assuming it was delivered to the wrong location. Someone might be waiting for it. Any ideas? Thanks! --Rosehn Gipe USS SLATER Albany, New York Steve stevecoast.com ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [OSM-talk] Pitiful proceedings - as usual
Tim Chris is trying to gently point out to you, as I was, that you're the one who's sucked up the most LWG time lately and thus making your suggestions on how they sound their time is a bit odd. Ignoring the point isn't helping. Steve stevecoast.com On Jun 20, 2011, at 10:25, TimSC mappingli...@sheerman-chase.org.uk wrote: On 20/06/11 18:11, Chris Hill wrote: It seems to me the same issues come up again and again, but never concluded, so it is not necessarily the fault of the person asking the question (or even of the LWG). I suggest that people directly trying to communicate with the LWG is a symptom and not a cause of the communication problem. And exactly how did making a long list of personal demands at the eleventh hour help with that process? Ok, just sanity check here - I looked at subject line as to what we are talking about - which is communication difficulties and LWG and related issues. Part of the problem in OSM mailing lists is that discussions keep going off topic and this is even directly after I raised it as a problem. Given that is a significant problem, the question is how do we address it? I suggest list moderation (which is community lead, not by a dictator) and a high standard of behavior set by the community leaders. (Yes, admittedly moderation takes volunteers but we need to agree on a plan before implementing it.) Can anyone think of a better plan? Regards, TimSC PS I plan to disregard, as much as I can, all non-constructive input. I will probably only be partly successful though. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Join the OSMF !
I only said +1 for a start, and that was in a thread where you managed to annoy Richard Weait. That's quite a feat. Steve stevecoast.com On Jun 20, 2011, at 10:43, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: Steve Coast wrote: On 6/18/2011 12:54 PM, Russ Nelson wrote: Erik Johansson writes: The Troll word is used so often around in this community that it's hard to speak about courtesy. That's because SteveC uses it on people who don't agree with him. Can you point to an example where I call someone a troll who was not characterized by the wikipedia definition? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet) http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-us/2010-October/004601.html I can say for sure that my aim was to get the bicycle=avoid tags removed, and I would presume that Paul's aim was to keep them. Hence neither of us was posting with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion. -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Join-the-OSMF-tp6461437p6496731.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Pitiful proceedings - as usual
Tim An ad hominem attack would be something where you complained about what the LWG spent it's time on and I replied with a comment about your mother. Instead, I replied pointing out that you are in fact the one using most of their time recently. That would be called a rebuttal or perhaps a riposte, but it's not an ad hominem attack. Steve stevecoast.com On Jun 20, 2011, at 9:47, TimSC mappingli...@sheerman-chase.org.uk wrote: On 20/06/11 16:33, Steve Coast wrote: I think the LWG is more than well aware that they are imperfect human beings volunteering in a horrible environment to make things better. So, can you point to where LWG itself has explicitly asked for help? Or recognised it's difficulties with communication in writing? Perhaps we need a request for help page on the wiki? It would be good to have them ask for specific types of help because people with those skills can step forward. I'd take a long look at how you have sucked up the LWGs time, Tim, before you make these kinds of statements. Steve, can you stop changing the subject on to me? It's ad hominem and a violation of etiquette. And it is off topic and doesn't assume good faith. Do you understand what I am asking, as you keep doing it even when I ask you to stop? Everything I have done, I have done in good faith. I shouldn't have to defend myself on every thread. (And Steve, if you want to talk about this seriously, try constructively responding to my email to the LWG on 15th June first. Continued discussion on this probably should be off the mailing list.) On 20/06/11 16:39, Chris Hill wrote: Maybe part of the reason that these volunteers are working too hard is because some people demand individual attention. Imagine if everyone made their own demands of the LWG ... Are you seriously saying that a handful of people directly talking to the LWG is a significant factor in LWG having communication difficulties? Or is this just another ad hominem? Is there a constructive solution to this? or are you telling me to shut up? It seems to me the same issues come up again and again, but never concluded, so it is not necessarily the fault of the person asking the question (or even of the LWG). I suggest that people directly trying to communicate with the LWG is a symptom and not a cause of the communication problem. Of course the LWG has a tough job, because legal issues are very hard to resolve and I have never denied that. But the solution is not to blame me or LWG but to actually try to solve the problems. So stop pointing fingers, please. Perhaps if we can reduce the barriers to people helping OSM it would help. We obviously do this in mapping with friendlier tools. But I am told we talk people that can do sys admin tasks and get involved with the LWG (and probably many other things I don't know about). This might be due to the selection of pretty obscure prerequisites to get involved: ruby on rails in development (I have never met a RoR developer in person, at least knowingly), and being familiar with the background of ODbL (which most normal legal professionals can't understand, unless they are specialists). I suggest as many tasks as possible be moved into domains were people actually have the skills to help out. (This might be a lame idea but at least I am trying to be constructive.) Regards, TimSC ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Statement from nearmap.com regarding submission of derived works from PhotoMaps to OpenStreetMap
So those guys put out a legal statement and an employee even gave you his interpretation on this list, which you can cite in court if you want. I think you're pretty solid and it feels like people are just looking for problems no matter what is done or said. :-( Steve stevecoast.com On Jun 16, 2011, at 0:44, Nick Hocking nick.hock...@gmail.com wrote: My understanding is that Nearmap wish all contributions to OSM, by any mapper who has agreed to the CT, derived from their imagery (before the 17th June 2011) to be able to be relicenced by OSMF under any licence it (OSMF) chooses at any time. However I also can't see exactly how the published statement meets this wish. Nick ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-t...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-t...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [talk-au] [OSM-legal-talk] Statement from nearmap.com regarding submission of derived works from PhotoMaps to OpenStreetMap
So those guys put out a legal statement and an employee even gave you his interpretation on this list, which you can cite in court if you want. I think you're pretty solid and it feels like people are just looking for problems no matter what is done or said. :-( Steve stevecoast.com On Jun 16, 2011, at 0:44, Nick Hocking nick.hock...@gmail.com wrote: My understanding is that Nearmap wish all contributions to OSM, by any mapper who has agreed to the CT, derived from their imagery (before the 17th June 2011) to be able to be relicenced by OSMF under any licence it (OSMF) chooses at any time. However I also can't see exactly how the published statement meets this wish. Nick ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-t...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [OSM-talk] Join the OSMF !
Thats a kind of odd set of statements given... the random polls you're showing around...? Steve stevecoast.com On Jun 13, 2011, at 13:53, TimSC mappingli...@sheerman-chase.org.uk wrote: On 13/06/11 12:30, Serge Wroclawski wrote: That vote took place three times. It was done first by the OSMF members, then the community at large, and then separately by the community by a different community member who had concerned over the first poll. Check the archives, you'll find references to them. They're several years old now. The community polls were post-hoc rationalizing, window dressing, unofficial and poorly worded. In legitimate democratic votes, the vote occurs BEFORE the decision to implement a plan takes place. It is tacitly acknowledged in that the mechanism in the CTs is different from what previously had happened. But really the past doesn't matter as much as what we do next. Regards, TimSC ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-GB] Landuse polygons created by TimSC: delete them?
I think the original email makes more sense as a discussion point if instead of being about deleting data it's more about getting started early on the problem of re-surveying data which might be removed. Steve stevecoast.com On Jun 12, 2011, at 18:16, Adam Hoyle adam.li...@dotankstudios.com wrote: Wow, what an incendiary email, I presume that was intentional and so as an outsider I feel compelled to respond with these 3 thoughts: 1) Unnecessary destruction of data seems particularly short sighted (maybe it is necessary, I'm not equipped to judge to be honest). 2) The points that are in the link in your email all seem perfectly reasonable, which makes me wonder what your objections to them are. 3) Are you carrying out some-kind of personal vendetta (or are you leading a group vendetta) against this TimSC person? I only ask because that is how it comes across to someone who is not at all engaged in the politics and history of involvement behind the open street map project. Adam On 12 Jun 2011, at 15:44, Andrew wrote: There are many landuse polygons in the London area that were created by user TimSC, who has not yet accepted the Contributor Terms. They will all be purged from the database when the licence changes if he continues not to do so. TimSC is now demanding changes to the way OSM is run with the treat of not accepting the CTs. (http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.gis.openstreetmap.legal/6102) I believe that, whatever the merits what he wants are, his methods are unacceptable and the community should reject them. I therefore propose to delete every landuse polygon that TimSC created with the hope that they will eventually be replaced with polygons based on high- resolution imagery and ground surveys that we can use going forwards. -- Andrew ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-ca] walking papers website having trouble??
Mike? Steve stevecoast.com On Jun 11, 2011, at 13:27, Connors, Bernie (SNB) bernie.conn...@snb.ca wrote: I have been waiting 17 hours for a map to generate at walking-papers.org. Is anybody aware of problems?? http://walking-papers.org/print.php?id=qztkwgs3 Bernie. ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
[Talk-ca] Fwd: walking papers website having trouble??
Steve stevecoast.com Begin forwarded message: From: Michal Migurski m...@teczno.com Date: June 11, 2011 18:41:41 GMT+01:00 To: SteveC st...@asklater.com Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] walking papers website having trouble?? It's been a long week so I've had to ignore WP for a few days - I know about the problem, will fix today or tomorrow and hopefully make it not a problem in the future. Garbage input, me not protecting against garbage input. -mike. On Jun 11, 2011, at 6:05 AM, SteveC wrote: Mike? Steve stevecoast.com On Jun 11, 2011, at 13:27, Connors, Bernie (SNB) bernie.conn...@snb.ca wrote: I have been waiting 17 hours for a map to generate at walking-papers.org. Is anybody aware of problems?? http://walking-papers.org/print.php?id=qztkwgs3 Bernie. ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca michal migurski- m...@stamen.com 415.558.1610 ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [OSM-talk] Join the OSMF !
On Jun 11, 2011, at 1:02, Nic Roets nro...@gmail.com wrote: Not at all - I know of no form of democracy that distinguishes between grudging acceptance or evangelical zeal. Dermot, I would quite like to take my data and start my own PD / CC0 project. What is stopping you? So by simply matching my new license to the conditions set by the OSMF, I would be voting yes in your referendum. In this referendum, the OSMF substantially influenced the outcome by declaring beforehand We are changing the license. They refused to register new users who do not vote yes. The emails that was sent out only listed the advantages of the license change. Go and look how an electoral commission operates. Something as simple as the order in which the candidates appear on the ballot can be seen as unfair. -- I am not saying OSMF acted illegally or that the license change is a bad thing. I am merely saying that the OSMF decided on the license change before there was overwhelming support for it from the community. The license change was not driven by the community. It was driven by a few individuals. How else can you explain the dismally low voter turn out when the OSMF members voted on it ? Regards, Nic ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-GB] OSM Analysis New Data and bot
Or as close to it as possible, yes. I don't care what the result is, it's just too fashionable to automatically believe the imports are bad thing. Steve stevecoast.com On Jun 10, 2011, at 7:05, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Hi, On 06/09/11 18:01, SteveC wrote: I know it's fashionable to claim imports are bad, what I seek is actual data. As in, A comparative study of the development of the OSM community in X in the standard universe where data has been imported, and in parallel universe P281/304-II where all other factors are unchanged but no data has been imported? Bye Frederik ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] OSM Analysis New Data and bot
There are tons of things. People drive in the US so pubs are difficult to arrange things around. Mapping in the US is boring because of the big gridded cities. I map much less in the US than the UK. It's not just that there are roads there already, which by the way is a good thing because I have sat for hours correcting them against aerial. It's just not that simple to say imports killed it. Steve stevecoast.com On Jun 10, 2011, at 8:15, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote: Frederik Ramm wrote: As in, A comparative study of the development of the OSM community in X in the standard universe where data has been imported, and in parallel universe P281/304-II where all other factors are unchanged but no data has been imported? I'm sure Muki's working on it. ;) My contention is that the US community is still struggling with such basic issues because it didn't have the shared experience of creating a map from scratch, whereas the UK and Germany, largely import-free, have strong communities built out of this experience. This might be wrong, and if the US's problems spring from something other than the big import, I'd be very interested to know what. The old canard of but the US is so _big_ doesn't count :) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependent_territories_by_population_density). cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/OSM-Analysis-New-Data-and-bot-tp6455312p6461116.html Sent from the Great Britain mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] OSM Analysis New Data and bot
On Jun 9, 2011, at 7:42, Jerry Clough : SK53 on OSM sk53_...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Generally, I am still opposed to a bot. There is a substantial body of evidence that automated imports damage the ability to recruit and nuture new mappers. Could you cite the evidence? Is it just hand waving about AND or something more specific? Recent posts about Latvia, Austria and The Netherlands on talk all substantiate this: in many cases the people recognising the issue were those who either carried out the import or agreed to it. I think a completion bot is a distraction from a much more important issue. In order to get a better level of completeness in the UK what we need are more mappers. There are several ways to recruit mappers: they require a decent amount of hard work, and probably a broader range of skills than writing a bot. We need a more organised way of generating publicity on a regular basis both for national and local media. We need a better press kit. We need to move the emphasis of mapping from getting GPS tracks: dont get me wrong this is still valuable, but a local mapper without a GPS can do a fine job with Bing, OS OpenData, Walking Papers, a camera, and ground surveys. We need more outreach techniques: not just mapping parties, or pub meets or mini-mapping, but workshops for people interested in consuming data, workshops to review the data from particular usage perspectives (cyclists, walkers, sustainable living, wheelchair users, etc.). We could do with more supporting materials for such things: slideshows, posters, how to organise I'm finding this ain't that easy, but at least I'm trying. We also need to recognise that the more detailed each area becomes the harder it becomes for a new mapper to feel that they can contribute, not forgetting the I might break something. If we are to devote effort to code its better directed at tools which can make the life of new mappers easier: this obviously includes contributing to existing editors, but it may mean creating new ones. It almost certainly means working to get a much more sophisticated OpenStreetBugs integrated into the rails port: many new mappers will initially be happy to point out bugs (see recent examples on OSM Help where the first thing someone wants to fix is a turn restriction). I strongly dislike the meme OS data is always more accurate than OSM, because it implies there's no point in doing surveys anyway. Yes, errors occur, although mainly in transcription rather than in surveying as can be seen by errors in using OSSV OSL, but tools like ITO OSM Analysis and OSL Musical Chairs really help to pick up these errors: I've been able to go back to pictures and audio recordings and indeed verify that I'd not changed Street to Road when I copied the tag over from another way. There is also the spurious accuracy problem: people filling in a road name from OS Locator when there is NO evidence on the ground that the road has that name (pace RichardF in W Oxon): see my blog post on Kenyon Road. Many of the unnamed roads in the immediate vicinity of where I'm writing this are of that type: sometimes dogged persistence can nail down that the road is still called that, for instance from address information. Take a look at Corby: its OSL road complete: a small part on the N edge was surveyed, the rest is largely from OSSV. There is a huge amount of information missing: footways, paths in parks, information about Places of Worship, other POIs. Corby is the classic sort of place which is less likely to receive attention from OSMers according to Muki's studies: its out of the way, it lacks a strong middle-class demographic. There are plenty of people living in places like this who are using Skobbler's apps, but we're never going to reach out to them if we do the easy bits from our armchairs and leave the harder less rewarding mapping activities for others. Why not build a separate database render which merges the missing names ( roads) from OSSV/OSL and OSM data, but is external to the OSM planet database. This could use many of the same techniques as a bot. A bot is putting short-term gain ahead of our long-term interests. Regards, Jerry ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Are you coming to London on Sunday?
:-( sorry Steve stevecoast.com On Jun 8, 2011, at 2:14, Chris Fleming m...@chrisfleming.org wrote: On 07/06/11 19:18, Steve Coast wrote: or saturday night http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Foundation/Board_Meeting_June_2011 Would be awesome to see you there Steve With a little bit more notice I would have been able to make it down :( :( Cheers Chris ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Phase 4 and what it means
Sadly I agree. Steve stevecoast.com On Jun 5, 2011, at 4:19, Nick Hocking nick.hock...@gmail.com wrote: The problem I have is a bit different. Someone (who has actively declined the CT) has been using nearmap to trace in some roads under construction in the Canberra area. Some of these roads are now complete and open to the public. It would be pointless of me to add information to the nearmapped ways (E.G it's name) since it seems certain that these ways will be deleted from OSM. However it is critical that these roads appear on the map right now, so that emergency services have access to the most up-to-date information available. The only way, I see, out of this mess is for me to map a new set of residential roads, using my actual GPS tracks, alongside the nearmapped ones, make then properly routable, and maybe put a layer tag on them (for the moment) to ensure that routers don't confuse the issue. Once all the nearmap data has been removed then I would remove the layer tags. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-talk] early OSM webmap request
Try image search? Steve stevecoast.com On Jun 4, 2011, at 16:31, Steve Chilton s.l.chil...@mdx.ac.uk wrote: For my SOTMEU presentation I need an image of the OSM webmap prior to mapnik, the old landsat +white lines version. I have looked on 'history' and 'featured images' on wiki but no luck. There are a couple of examples in blackadder and coast lecture presentations in SVN but not really clear enough to use. Can anyone send me, or point me to, a suitable image (even the famous Regent's Park one would be fine!)? Cheers STEVE ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
You will also find discussion of this list in that meeting. If I had posted the new logo idea here before doing anything there would have been a gigantic discussion on it and nothing would happen. Any progress at all in any direction now means at least 5 or 10 people on this list don't like it. That makes it very hard for anyone to achieve anything without treating this list as noise. We need to get away from that. Any ideas appreciated. Steve stevecoast.com On Apr 30, 2011, at 7:23, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2011/4/30 Mikel Maron mikel_ma...@yahoo.com: From: Simon Poole si...@poole.ch While I don't quite understand why the SWG has turned in to the WDWG (Web Design Working Group) SWG has taken this on because the usability of the site is a the primary way users, new and old, engage with OSM, there are definitely issues with it. the logo is not an usability topic. Yet, in yesterday's meeting, we realized that actually doing anything would be a good start. Yes, looking at the working group log, I realized that. Looks like Steve posted this proposal [1] he found in the web (or someone sent him), and one day later some logos are changed on the front page (some still are old versions). There is two quotes I want to cite from the log: 1. (12:38:15 PM) SteveC: TomH: how is rails 3 coming BTW? (12:39:02 PM) TomH: oh it mostly works, but there's an issue with our multi-part primary keys that is giving me grief (12:39:11 PM) TomH: that's the only thing causing test failures now though 2. (12:42:31 PM) SteveC: wonderchook: and I have opinions on Fukushima despite not being a nuclear engineer, but it's much better to have people work on design who... know how to design and build things It's not that I necessarily prefer the old logo above the one that is there at the moment, it is the process I want to point at. Why, if there are apparently no designers in the SWG, should there be such a hurry (and why should they decide at all, maybe setting up a design group would be a better alternative)? The logo change is a big deal, it affects hundreds of sites (also of other people using OSM data and show the logo), stickers, t-shirts, cups, flyers and other print material and maps(!)... Usually changing the logo is not a oneliner, it is an iterative process. Make some proposals, choose the aspects you like, recombine them, ... Like software deployment requires testing (see irc-log above, 1.) the same is valid (in a different way) also for design (2.) and even more for UI-design. Usually the first experiments are not done on the front page. cheers, Martin __ [1] (12:35:35 PM) SteveC: Go look at this logo: http://raraken.deviantart.com/art/OpenStreetMap-Icon-Logo-174454488?q=gallery:Raraken/6244368qo=8 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
Mikel and SWG don't have to take all this, I did it so flame me Jochen. Steve stevecoast.com On Apr 30, 2011, at 9:04, Mikel Maron mikel_ma...@yahoo.com wrote: So tired of the bad attitude in OSM. Perhaps you're just trying to be funny Jochen, but really, this makes me want to quit trying to do anything. From: Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org To: Martijn van Exel m...@rtijn.org Cc: osm talk@openstreetmap.org Sent: Sat, April 30, 2011 10:53:46 AM Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 04:11:52PM +0200, Martijn van Exel wrote: On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 1:56 PM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: I noticed that there is a new OSM logo in the wiki. I find it strange that important things like changing the well established logo of the project are beeing changed without any discussion or notice on any of the lists, or did I miss something? Or was the site hacked? I'd have to concur. Firstly, a new logo is not something you roll out on its own, it's part of a new 'corporate identity' and it's not something you just implement by accepting a pull request. Secondly, there's tons of derived products that are sitting there looking dated all of a sudden; not only national or sub-project web sites, also printed materials. It seems very amateurish to have different logo versions sitting around in different parts of the project. All in all I believe some advance notice would have been a good idea. Mind you, I'm not even talking about a community voting process - I'm not in favor of that in this case at all. Don't be so hard on the Strategic Working Group. After months of talks they have actually done something! I think we should celebrate that! After dipping their toes into many important subjects for the future of OSM they have chosen the logo change as the most important strategic change and implemented it! I am glad OSM is not just a bunch of nerds any more, but that we now have a strategy! Yeah! And I think having a logo that looks a bit skewed is a perfect fit for OSM. It symbolizes the imperfect nature of OSM! Jochen -- Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org http://www.remote.org/jochen/ +49-721-388298 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
Come on Martin. Look, yes we can always, always be better at communication. But if we had a process like that we might have got to actually one day putting a new logo up. In the process with all the flames and the people screaming no, and all that, the people actually doing then work would get demoralized, like they are right now. You should take it as a good sign there isn't some huge process and that you are as involved as anyone. I think jockru also said he wanted a blog post? Well he has access to opengeodata as much as we all do! :-) The process you outline is reasonable on a constructive list. This just isn't a constructive place a lot of the time. Instead of taking 8 weeks to have a process, let's treat it as 8 weeks where anyone can help fix these theoretical and technical logo issues. It's right there, anyone can help. So who's going to do it? Steve stevecoast.com On Apr 30, 2011, at 9:17, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2011/4/30 SteveC st...@asklater.com: You will also find discussion of this list in that meeting. If I had posted the new logo idea here before doing anything there would have been a gigantic discussion on it and nothing would happen. I remember a different process when the foundation got its logo, and it did happen. Any progress at all in any direction now means at least 5 or 10 people on this list don't like it. That makes it very hard for anyone to achieve anything without treating this list as noise. We need to get away from that. Any ideas appreciated. It is not that people don't like the new logo, I would have expected a process like: 0. Announce that you are going to change the logo in 4 (or 8) weeks. 1. publish a link to the logo proposal 2. get some comments 3. implement (eventually) some of the conclusions 4. you are satisfied or go to 1. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] License graph
It's true. On Apr 19, 2011, at 5:33 AM, Frederik Ramm wrote: Hi, On 04/19/11 14:14, Elizabeth Dodd wrote: Of course, those who can remember a bit further back, recall that Frederick Ramm is in favour of Public Domain, and not ODbL. Perhaps if you explain just how your support was bought it would make more entertaining reading that your recent posts. SteveC said he'd let me pilot his private jet if I say yes. Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk Steve stevecoast.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] License graph
You know I don't have a private jet, right? But if I did, Fred could pilot it. On Apr 19, 2011, at 12:45 PM, ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen wrote: I don't think Steve, it's a good idea to admit that in public. I remember that some osm user publicly confessed to have used Google while mapping OSM data and he was very badly treated... ;) or ;(( Gert -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: SteveC [mailto:st...@asklater.com] Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april 2011 21:18 Aan: Frederik Ramm CC: talk@openstreetmap.org Onderwerp: Re: [OSM-talk] License graph It's true. On Apr 19, 2011, at 5:33 AM, Frederik Ramm wrote: Hi, On 04/19/11 14:14, Elizabeth Dodd wrote: Of course, those who can remember a bit further back, recall that Frederick Ramm is in favour of Public Domain, and not ODbL. Perhaps if you explain just how your support was bought it would make more entertaining reading that your recent posts. SteveC said he'd let me pilot his private jet if I say yes. Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk Steve stevecoast.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk Steve stevecoast.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-GB] OSM Contributor Terms vs OS OpenData Licence
On Apr 18, 2011, at 2:42 PM, TimSC wrote: On 18/04/11 22:23, Frederik Ramm wrote: I'm an outsider to all this OS business but if you guys in the UK should really have been uploading data that requires attributing OS in every downstream product then we have a problem which has nothing whatsover to do with the license change. I can see *no* OS attribution on any of the major tile providers, including our own. Of course you can always go to the source and see from the object history that OS was involved, but that is a technique that you seem to discount above. So either this is all a big misunderstanding, or nobody who used OS data until now has cared sh*t for the license. Now I could understand if someone has always maintained that OS data was incompatible with OSM and thus refused to use it. What I cannot understand is if someone has happily used OS data until now, in the full knowledge that nobody would attribute OS downstream anywhere, but now says they cannot sign the CT because they codify exactly what has been happening. Reality check, anyone? Bye Frederik I actually agree with you Frederik, but the entire project so far overlooks the even bigger problem that CC-by-SA technically demands that every contributor is attributed in every derived work. reasonable to the medium it says in the license. Not every contributor. It would clearly be unreasonable to list tens of thousands of people on a paper map, for example. Steve stevecoast.com ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [OSM-talk] highway=unsurfaced
I want to go to that mapping party. Steve stevecoast.com On Jan 21, 2011, at 17:59, Kenneth Gonsalves law...@thenilgiris.com wrote: On Fri, 2011-01-21 at 19:30 +, Steve Doerr wrote: Nothing official, but it would be very unusual for anybody to call something that wasn't surfaced a road. Unless they were expatriates in a third-world country? please refrain from such remarks - I suppose you think we map by snake charming while riding on elephant back? -- regards KG http://lawgon.livejournal.com Coimbatore LUG rox http://ilugcbe.techstud.org/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] It's fun while it lasts
Don't count your chickens until they are hatched. Steve stevecoast.com On Feb 11, 2011, at 1:44, Chris Browet c...@semperpax.com wrote: On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 10:40, Andrew Ayre a...@britishideas.com wrote: What is the point of spreading unfounded FUD? OSM doesn't need Microsoft to exist anyway. I think he meant that now that MS will have access to Navteq, there is more than reasonable doubts regarding their future involvment in OSM... - Chris - ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] magical road detector to play with
That's an interesting idea, I wonder what else lurks on the web, like postcodes for example? Steve On Feb 3, 2011, at 11:19 AM, Nic Roets nro...@gmail.com wrote: Steve, Another thing that Bing can help us with is determining address ranges of roads. For example, when you spider the web and find references to 5, 20 and 48 Lion Street, Pretoria, then it may help the user who is mapping that street. Perhaps it's a cul de sac and now he doesn't need to travel all the way down it to see where the range ends. A little bit of care will be needed to suppress databases that may be legally protected. But I can't see any problem if you extract 1 address per website. Regards, Nic On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 7:17 PM, Steve Coast st...@asklater.com wrote: http://www.bing.com/community/site_blogs/b/maps/archive/2011/02/03/automatically-detect-roads-with-bing-aerial-imagery.aspx ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] magical road detector to play with
Thanks for the feedback. Eyal and jm any chance of confidence? Steve On Feb 3, 2011, at 3:10 PM, François Van Der Biest francois.vanderbi...@camptocamp.com wrote: Thanks for this new service. I felt quite frustrated when I saw the silverlight stuff warning, so I decided to create a simple client with OpenLayers. Here it is: http://maps.qualitystreetmap.org/bingtracing/ I really like the whole idea, but the service lacks a confidence index for the returned feature. I also guess that the algorithm gives several paths and only the one with the highest score is returned. Is it possible to get the other paths along with their scores ? F. On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 6:17 PM, Steve Coast st...@asklater.com wrote: http://www.bing.com/community/site_blogs/b/maps/archive/2011/02/03/automatically-detect-roads-with-bing-aerial-imagery.aspx ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] magical road detector to play with
Maybe put the magicshop version number in the creator? Steve On Feb 3, 2011, at 9:12 PM, John-Michael Wiley jmwi...@microsoft.com wrote: I made the changes, checked in the code and published them to the staging servers. If someone else wants to take a look at the output and let me know if you think. Unless I hear complaints I will update the production servers tomorrow. http://c5a33f72a0594a6b87931c2e3f984324.cloudapp.net/ I pasted the new output below. Thanks, J.M. osmchange version=0.6 generator=magicshop create version=0.6 generator=magicshop bounds minlat=47.626690 minlon=-122.119339 maxlat=47.627491 maxlon=-122.116432/ node id=-1 lat=47.6266899 lon=-122.1164322/ node id=-2 lat=47.6271019 lon=-122.1169662/ node id=-3 lat=47.6273270 lon=-122.1172714/ node id=-4 lat=47.6273766 lon=-122.1174622/ node id=-5 lat=47.6273804 lon=-122.1180801/ node id=-6 lat=47.6273880 lon=-122.1184006/ node id=-7 lat=47.6273880 lon=-122.1185226/ node id=-8 lat=47.6273804 lon=-122.1188660/ node id=-9 lat=47.6274834 lon=-122.1193314/ node id=-10 lat=47.6274910 lon=-122.1193390/ way id=-1 nd ref=-1/ nd ref=-2/ nd ref=-3/ nd ref=-4/ nd ref=-5/ nd ref=-6/ nd ref=-7/ nd ref=-8/ nd ref=-9/ nd ref=-10/ /way /create /osmchange From: christian.bro...@gmail.com [mailto:christian.bro...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Chris Browet Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 6:47 PM To: John-Michael Wiley Cc: Steve Coast; talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] magical road detector to play with I am also wondering if we should switch to osm change as the enclosing tag although the idea is not to give someone something they submit right to OSM. In our prototypes we have been adding the detected ways onto the map for the user to edit and approve. I generate new id’s for the ones passed back to me so they don’t conflict with current changes the user has already made. I personally see no advantage for switching to osm change, as all features are new anyway, but indeed the disadvantage of being too easy to upload as-is, without proper review... - Chris - ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Watch out if mapping in Florida, Georgia...
GPS might not work; http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/01/20/unavailabe_gps_warning/ Steve stevecoast.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[Talk-us] Watch out if mapping in Florida, Georgia...
GPS might not work; http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/01/20/unavailabe_gps_warning/ Steve stevecoast.com ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [OSM-talk] What phone survey results
On Jan 8, 2011, at 5:18 PM, David Murn wrote: On Fri, 2011-01-07 at 12:00 -0800, SteveC wrote: That's kind of interesting. Sold over what time period though? The article I posted gave figures (in both volume and $ sales) for per-quarter periods, compared with other quarters in 2010 and the previous year. Arguing with anonymous strangers on the Internet is a sucker's game.. I find this a very interesting response when the question asked of you was: *I* don't want to know who's using what 'phone; I wanted to know why *you* wanted to know. Someone fairly and squarely asked the reason why youre surveying users on this mailing list, a mailing list for a project that begins with 'Open', and your response is to call it an argument with an anonymous idiot? No, I answered it several times, as did others. It was simple curiosity. My reply was to the trolling. Wouldnt it be easier (and less personally insulting) to simply give an answer to the question everyone has politely asked you, or if youre under some commercial-in-confidence agreement, then at least say so? You asked everyone here for their help with your project, then launch into a tirade that everyone who enquired for more details about your project, is a 'self-righteous sixteen-year-old posessing infinite amounts of free time'. David Steve stevecoast.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] What phone survey results
Arguing with anonymous strangers on the Internet is a sucker's game because they almost always turn out to be—or to be indistinguishable from—self-righteous sixteen-year-olds possessing infinite amounts of free time. — Neal Stephenson (Cryptonomicon) On Jan 6, 2011, at 4:34 AM, Dave F. wrote: On 05/01/2011 22:45, SteveC wrote: In response to the critique of the validity, feel free to go do a better job. Why do people who are afraid of criticism (in fact, it was just a question to start with) always post ridiculous non sequiturs such as the above? *I* don't want to know who's using what 'phone; I wanted to know why *you* wanted to know. Was that too hard to comprehend? Your failure to give a conclusive reason suggests an ulterior motive. Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk Steve stevecoast.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] What phone survey results
That's kind of interesting. Sold over what time period though? On Jan 6, 2011, at 1:05 PM, Michael Kugelmann wrote: On 05.01.2011 23:45, SteveC wrote: Results from my crude little survey; For my point of view this is somehow the same as the distribution of phones sold. Except: the very low number of BB-Devices. Best regards, Michael. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk Steve stevecoast.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Use of Bing imagery visualised - update
now you just need to go add addr:* tags for all of them, and you're done :-) On Jan 4, 2011, at 4:21 AM, Steve Chilton wrote: Updated and colour differentiated: http://www.stevechilton.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/osm/buildingsBing.png Cheers STEVE -Original Message- From: talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Steve Chilton Sent: 23 December 2010 00:23 To: talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: [OSM-talk] Use of Bing imagery visualised Have done a quick render to show the effect of using Bing imagery to get building outlines. The two illustrations are for the Borough of Enfield (using today's geofabrik data file). The larger shapes are predominantly those done earlier from OS OpenData. The smaller shapes are a bunch of buildings traced from Bing imagery. Whole Borough http://www.stevechilton.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/osm/buildings1.png Detail http://www.stevechilton.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/osm/buildings2.png Cheers STEVE ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk Steve stevecoast.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] What phone survey results
Results from my crude little survey; count percentage Android of some kind70 30% Nokia 65 28% iPhone 39 17% Other 45 19% Rim/Blackberry 5 2% Windows Phone 7 4 2% Palm4 2% In response to the critique of the validity, feel free to go do a better job. I was just curious. Steve stevecoast.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] CTs and the 1 April deadline
very funny On Jan 4, 2011, at 7:11 AM, Rob Myers wrote: On 04/01/11 15:05, Richard Fairhurst wrote: Peter Miller wrote: I will currently be one of the people locked out because I have used the Ordnance Survey open data which is apparently incompatible with the new license. OS OpenData is AIUI compatible with ODbL and the latest Contributor Terms. [citation needed] (http://fandomania.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/xfiles1.jpg) - Rob. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-t...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk Steve stevecoast.com ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-t...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
[Talk-us] Fwd: SF Gov GIS data clickthrough license - compatible with OpenStreetMap?
Steve Begin forwarded message: From: Michal Migurski m...@stamen.com Date: December 14, 2010 11:14:19 PM PST To: SteveC st...@asklater.com Subject: Re: SF Gov GIS data clickthrough license - compatible with OpenStreetMap? I told him I'd pass the word along, there's nothing in there that seems like a risk to me - go for it! -mike. On Dec 14, 2010, at 6:24 PM, SteveC wrote: Can this go to the list etc? Steve On Dec 14, 2010, at 6:20 PM, Michal Migurski m...@stamen.com wrote: FYI. Begin forwarded message: From: Thomas Long thomas.l...@sfgov.org Date: December 14, 2010 2:27:07 PM PST To: Nath, Jay jay.n...@sfgov.org Cc: Michal Migurski m...@stamen.com Subject: RE: SF Gov GIS data clickthrough license - compatible with OpenStreetMap? Jay and Michal, Generally, our terms and conditions are not intended to place restrictions on the use of the data, but rather to gain the user's agreement that there are no warranties etc regarding the data, that the City's liability is limited and the user indemnifies us for any claims arising from the user's use of the data. The exception would be if our website expressly states that there are other conditions/restrictions on the use of the data in question (such as when we obtain data from a 3d party that restricts our use of the data.) I have not read the specific CC license Michal refers to, but I don't think there would be a conflict unless the CC license is contrary to the City's disclaimer/limitation of liability/indemnity language. I hope this helps. Let me know if you have other questions. Tom Tom Long Deputy City Attorney Office of City Attorney Dennis J. Herrera City Hall, Room 234 San Francisco, CA 94102 Tel: (415) 554-6548 Fax: (415) 554-4763 thomas.l...@sfgov.org The information in this email is confidential and protected by the attorney/client and/or work product privileges. If you received this email inadvertently, please permanently delete it. From:Nath, Jay jay.n...@sfgov.org To:Michal Migurski m...@stamen.com, Long, Thomas thomas.l...@sfgov.org Date:12/13/2010 10:11 AM Subject:RE: SF Gov GIS data clickthrough license - compatible with OpenStreetMap? Hi Mike, I'm copying in Thomas Long. We did speak with a member of OSM a few months ago on a similar topic. -Original Message- From: Michal Migurski [mailto:m...@stamen.com] Sent: Monday, December 13, 2010 9:59 AM To: Nath, Jay Subject: SF Gov GIS data clickthrough license - compatible with OpenStreetMap? Hi Jay, Happy Monday! A member of the OpenStreetMap community is interested in importing some of the data from DataSF into OSM, and he's looking at this clickthrough license: http://gispub02.sfgov.org/website/sfshare/index2.asp They're wondering if the license is compatible with the CC-BY-SA ODBL licenses that the project uses? That is to say, can the data be freely imported into a database under those terms, the same way that the project has already imported data from the U.S. Census TIGER road network, Massachusetts GIS, Arkansas, and other government entities over the past few years? Sorry if this question is completely outside of your area of expertise, figured you might know who to ask. -mike. michal migurski- m...@stamen.com 415.558.1610 [attachment winmail.dat deleted by Thomas Long/CTYATT] michal migurski- m...@stamen.com 415.558.1610 michal migurski- m...@stamen.com 415.558.1610 ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Is this click through agreement compatible with OSM?
Making sure mike sees this thread... He's been talking to the same people I believe. Steve stevecoast.com On Dec 11, 2010, at 1:27 PM, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 9:16 AM, Gregory Arenius greg...@arenius.com wrote: city changed the click through to address those problems. The agreement is located here: http://gispub02.sfgov.org/website/sfshare/index2.asp. See this clause: These Terms of Use do not grant You any title or right to any such intellectual property rights that the City or others may have in the GIS Data. Translation: You don't own it. Now see this clause: You agree to only add Contents for which You are the copyright holder Translation: You don't own it, you can't add it. (I'm glad this isn't just about Nearmap now.) Steve ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [Talk-us] Address Node Import for San Francisco
Just wanna say that addressing in SF would be awesome :-) Steve stevecoast.com On Dec 10, 2010, at 1:29 AM, Katie Filbert filbe...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 6:20 PM, Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 6:00 PM, Gregory Arenius greg...@arenius.com wrote: I've been working on an import of San Francisco address node data. I have several thoughts and questions and would appreciate any feedback. The Wiki page doesn't mention the original dataset url. I have a few concerns: 1) Without seeing the dataset url, it's hard to know anything about the dataset (its age, accuracy, etc.) This is a real problem with imports- knowing the original quality of the dataset before it's imported. The project has had to remove or correct so many bad datasets, it's incredibly annoying. About the data. Its in a shapefile format containing about 230,000 individual nodes. The data is really high quality and all of the addresses I have checked are correct. It has pretty complete coverage of the entire city. MHO is that individual node addresses are pretty awful. If you can import the building outlines, and then attach the addresses to them, great (and you'll need to consider what's to be done with any existing data), but otherwise, IMHO, this dataset just appears as noise. Also, there are a large number of places where there are multiple nodes in one location if there is more than one address at that location. One example would be a house broken into five apartments. Sometimes they keep one address and use apartment numbers and sometimes each apartment gets its own house number. In the latter cases there will be five nodes with different addr:housenumber fields but identical addr:street and lat/long coordinates. Should I keep the individual nodes or should I combine them? Honestly, I think this is a very cart-before-horse. Please consider making a test of your dataset somewhere people can check out, and then solicit feedback on the process. I haven't yet looked into how I plan to do the actual uploading but I'll take care to make sure its easily reversible if anything goes wrong and doesn't hammer any servers. There are people who've spent years with the project and not gotten imports right, I think this is a less trivial problem than you might expect. I've also made a wiki page for the import. Feedback welcome here or on the wiki page. This really belongs on the imports list as well, but my feedback would be: 1) Where's the shapefile? (if for nothing else, than the licnese, but also for feedback) 2) Can you attach the addresses to real objects (rather than standalone nodes)? 3) What metadata will you keep from the other dataset? 4) How will you handle internally conflicting data? 5) How will you handle conflicts with existing OSM data? - Serge A few comments... 1) San Francisco explicitly says they do not have building outline data. :( So, I suppose we get to add buildings ourselves. I do see that SF does have parcels. For DC, we are attaching addresses to buildings when there is a one-to-one relation between them. When there are multiple address nodes for a single building, then we keep them as nodes. In vast majority of cases, we do not have apartment numbers but in some cases we have things like 1120a, 1120b, 1120c that can be imported. Obviously, without a buildings dataset, our approach won't quite apply for SF. 2) I don't consider the addresses as noise. The data is very helpful for geocoding. If the renderer does a sloppy job making noise out of addresses, the renderings should be improved. 3) Having looked at the data catalogue page, I do have concerns about the terms of use and think it's best to get SF to explicitly agree to allow OSM to use the data. http://gispub02.sfgov.org/website/sfshare/index2.asp 4) If you can get explicit permission, then I suggest breaking up the address nodes into smaller chunks (e.g. by census block group), convert them to osm format with Ian's shp-to-osm tool, and check them for quality and against existing OSM data (e.g. existing pois w/ addresses) in JOSM before importing. QGIS and/or PostGIS can be useful for chopping up the data into geographic chunks. This approach gives opportunity to apply due diligence, to check things, and keep chunks small enough that it's reasonably possible to deal with any mistakes or glitches. -Katie ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us -- Katie Filbert filbe...@gmail.com @filbertkm ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list
Re: [OSM-talk] Suggestion for an Unconference
Speaking personally about what large orgs and what they want, I think it's pretty simple. Have a look at commercial data and OSM and do a diff, what are the main things missing? Addressing for geocoding and turn restrictions for routing. On Nov 26, 2010, at 1:27 AM, Ed Avis wrote: I think everyone agrees that detailed legal discussion belongs on the legal list. Questions such as how any licence transition should proceed, deletion of existing bits of map, and how to organize the voting process are not legal arcana but questions of project governance, and surely belong on this list. I am sorry I asked about what Microsoft and others would like to see from OSM's licensing terms. I hoped that some concrete answers would help discussion to move on from the mostly fixed positions and legal nitpicking we see on the legal mailing list (of which I am just as guilty as anyone else). But I guess the big mapping sites are not willing to make a public statement for fear of being seen to influence the project. That is a shame, since we are somewhat in the dark about what the rest of the world thinks. -- Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk Steve stevecoast.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Suggestion for an Unconference (from osm-talk)
On Nov 25, 2010, at 4:09 PM, Grant Slater wrote: John, On 25 November 2010 20:15, john whelan jwhelan0...@gmail.com wrote: Just a comment from one of the 130 who has voted yes on the recommendation of one of the people I thought was fairly sensible here and I now regret taking his advice. I now strongly suspect I should have spent six months wading through through the legal talk side of things rather than mapping because a whole slew of issues seem to be coming up here. ~4800 existing users have agreed to the Contributor Terms, this excludes the new OSM signups. Or are you discussing the foundation members vote? I would like the ability to go back and change my vote. I don't like being told this is not the place for discussion of license issues or concerns. In light of the recent involvement of Microsoft and other large players I think there are perception problems that need to be addressed. Microsoft/Bing has spoken to the Licensing Working Group on 2 occasions. I flagged these up in the minutes. MapQuest has not spoken to the Licensing Grouping Group. For example I'm very concerned that there is no plan to deal with the transition to the new licensing model. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Open_Data_License/Implementation_Plan If you would like expansion on the items ask. Perhaps OSM should take note of the Open Data mob and be a little more open about what is happening rather than trying to censure discussion on issues and concerns which apparently have not been addressed by the decision makers. They seem to have taken decisions but won't accept any responsibility to address issues and concerns. I'm not asking to stay with the old licenses necessarily but I would like to see some sort of plan and if we can find a way to address the issues and concerns. Censure discussion? Please expand. Moving licensing discussion to a dedicated public list is not censure in my view. There have been many round of question, answers and many revisions. The LWG spends at around 25% of their time just keeping minutes. I'm a member of the LWG, we are all volenteers with the exception of occasional member Steve Coast. Er... what makes you think I'm not a volunteer? :-) Full minutes: http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Working_Group_Minutes Regards Grant ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-t...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk Steve stevecoast.com ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-t...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Suggestion for an Unconference
On Nov 26, 2010, at 2:44 PM, Martijn van Exel wrote: ...and some metric that tells you that the data covers 99.1273% of reality. fwiw. But there's a point there, serious users want to know more about quality than they can find out easily right now. How you define quality, that's another discussion. And that's kind of the problem - what is it? Everyone wants a simple definition and metric but it just doesn't exist. Even when you compare to ground truth, commercial providers are almost as wrong as they are right. That means if OSM has 100 turn restrictions and they have 100 it doesn't tell you very much about which ones are right and which are wrong. Which is counter-intuituve and hard to explain when advocating OSM as a source. Martijn van Exel +++ m...@rtijn.org laziness – impatience – hubris http://schaaltreinen.nl | http://martijnvanexel.nl | http://oegeo.wordpress.com/ twitter / skype: mvexel flickr: rhodes On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 10:36 PM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: Speaking personally about what large orgs and what they want, I think it's pretty simple. Have a look at commercial data and OSM and do a diff, what are the main things missing? Addressing for geocoding and turn restrictions for routing. On Nov 26, 2010, at 1:27 AM, Ed Avis wrote: I think everyone agrees that detailed legal discussion belongs on the legal list. Questions such as how any licence transition should proceed, deletion of existing bits of map, and how to organize the voting process are not legal arcana but questions of project governance, and surely belong on this list. I am sorry I asked about what Microsoft and others would like to see from OSM's licensing terms. I hoped that some concrete answers would help discussion to move on from the mostly fixed positions and legal nitpicking we see on the legal mailing list (of which I am just as guilty as anyone else). But I guess the big mapping sites are not willing to make a public statement for fear of being seen to influence the project. That is a shame, since we are somewhat in the dark about what the rest of the world thinks. -- Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk Steve stevecoast.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk Steve stevecoast.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Suggestion for an Unconference (from osm-talk)
On Nov 26, 2010, at 3:03 PM, Grant Slater wrote: On 26 November 2010 21:37, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: On Nov 25, 2010, at 4:09 PM, Grant Slater wrote: There have been many round of question, answers and many revisions. The LWG spends at around 25% of their time just keeping minutes. I'm a member of the LWG, we are all volenteers with the exception of occasional member Steve Coast. Er... what makes you think I'm not a volunteer? :-) True, fair comment. I should have been phrased it better ...We are all volunteers working on this in our own time. SteveC's day job is in Geo and without a doubt puts OSM interests first. The rest of us poor suckers work for the man in non-Geo related day jobs. :-) / Grant Steve stevecoast.com ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-t...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Suggestion for an Unconference
On Nov 26, 2010, at 3:03 PM, Martijn van Exel wrote: The metrics TeleAtlas and NAVTEQ give you are all smokescreens and impossible to verify. Can you expand on that - what are they? Completeness and spatial accuracy are interesting but what will be your reference to measure against? What I think is interesting is something you could call crowd quality, where you measure things like how many users have been active in an area, what is their experience / reputation, and how does their mapping activity affect individual features: how many versions, growing attribute richness, spatial convergence. If you can correlate this to the 'objective' quality metric (completeness, accuracy) you could predict how good OSM is even in places where you don't have any reference data to measure against. Martijn van Exel +++ m...@rtijn.org laziness – impatience – hubris http://schaaltreinen.nl | http://martijnvanexel.nl | http://oegeo.wordpress.com/ twitter / skype: mvexel flickr: rhodes On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 10:49 PM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: On Nov 26, 2010, at 2:44 PM, Martijn van Exel wrote: ...and some metric that tells you that the data covers 99.1273% of reality. fwiw. But there's a point there, serious users want to know more about quality than they can find out easily right now. How you define quality, that's another discussion. And that's kind of the problem - what is it? Everyone wants a simple definition and metric but it just doesn't exist. Even when you compare to ground truth, commercial providers are almost as wrong as they are right. That means if OSM has 100 turn restrictions and they have 100 it doesn't tell you very much about which ones are right and which are wrong. Which is counter-intuituve and hard to explain when advocating OSM as a source. Martijn van Exel +++ m...@rtijn.org laziness – impatience – hubris http://schaaltreinen.nl | http://martijnvanexel.nl | http://oegeo.wordpress.com/ twitter / skype: mvexel flickr: rhodes On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 10:36 PM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: Speaking personally about what large orgs and what they want, I think it's pretty simple. Have a look at commercial data and OSM and do a diff, what are the main things missing? Addressing for geocoding and turn restrictions for routing. On Nov 26, 2010, at 1:27 AM, Ed Avis wrote: I think everyone agrees that detailed legal discussion belongs on the legal list. Questions such as how any licence transition should proceed, deletion of existing bits of map, and how to organize the voting process are not legal arcana but questions of project governance, and surely belong on this list. I am sorry I asked about what Microsoft and others would like to see from OSM's licensing terms. I hoped that some concrete answers would help discussion to move on from the mostly fixed positions and legal nitpicking we see on the legal mailing list (of which I am just as guilty as anyone else). But I guess the big mapping sites are not willing to make a public statement for fear of being seen to influence the project. That is a shame, since we are somewhat in the dark about what the rest of the world thinks. -- Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk Steve stevecoast.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk Steve stevecoast.com Steve stevecoast.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Suggestion for an Unconference
On Nov 26, 2010, at 3:25 PM, Ed Avis wrote: SteveC steve at asklater.com writes: Speaking personally about what large orgs and what they want, I think it's pretty simple. Have a look at commercial data and OSM and do a diff, what are the main things missing? Addressing for geocoding and turn restrictions for routing. For addressing, I guess it is usually sufficient to have a street name - the exact addr:housenumber stuff is not needed I assume? Imagine a country where many streets are miles and miles long. Then yes, it matters as you could be 10 miles out :-) The country would be the US or Canada. Turn restrictions are also hard to survey manually. A mapper on foot or bicycle might not pay much attention to them, and again, it is hard to know when you have all of them. They might possibly be suggested from analysis of GPS traces, provided we have a large number of traces for an area and they are clearly tagged to show which ones are for travelling by car. This is one reason why a standard tagging scheme for GPS traces is needed. You can expose it with things like routing. Steve stevecoast.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Suggestion for an Unconference
Hrm. I think we should have some kind of idea of what we're trying to accomplish. There are a bunch of companies interested in OSM, and it might be nice for them to talk. I suspect it's about as simple as that? But we don't want to do that and exclude anyone else, so it should be free for anyone else to come along. I'd avoid discussion about where we both get value... because OSM isn't really a company you can negotiate terms with. The license on the data is what it is, take it or leave it. So there's not really any discussion about OSM giving anyone more value in that sense. On Nov 24, 2010, at 12:42 PM, Steve Citron-Pousty wrote: Hey Peter and Emilie: Totally agree - hence the reason to have an unconference. The important part of this conference would be the back and forth as we try to find the place where we both can get value. I think everyone who wrote the original letter is very sensitive to the claims of any company driving OSM - this is NOT what we want. Does that make sense? Steve From: talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org on behalf of Emilie Laffray Sent: Wed 11/24/2010 10:33 AM To: Peter Wendorff Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Suggestion for an Unconference On 24 November 2010 18:20, Peter Wendorff wendo...@uni-paderborn.de wrote: Dangerous question. On the one hand you are right: It would be awesome. But on the other OSM should not be as a big companies wants it to be. I agree with the statement that OSM should be what OSM wants to be. If the goal of OSM coincides with those companies, good, else we should not move out of our way to serve those companies interest. Emily Laffray ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk Steve stevecoast.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-de] news von steve coast
On Nov 24, 2010, at 2:09 AM, Martin Simon wrote: Am 23. November 2010 22:27 schrieb SteveC st...@asklater.com: wow Hey, stop google-translate-ing our list! We can only succesfully conspire against you, OSMF, ODBL and whoever-you-happen-to-work-for-atm when it's kept secret! Please respect that! Thank you sir. :-) -Martin ;-) ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de Steve stevecoast.com ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] news von steve coast
wow On Nov 23, 2010, at 12:36 PM, 007 wrote: Pure Spekulation ;) : OSM bekommt The worlds best sat imagery. Beuutifull pictures. Gibt es nichts mehr zu mappen wird nach einhelliger Meinung der ODBL-Verschwörungstheoriegemeinde die versuchte Übernahme der Openstreetmap durch Microsoft beginnen. Erste Anzeichen werden die dann in die OSMF eingetreteten Miniweichmitarbeiter (ca. 5000) sein. Cloudmade hatte einfach zu wenig, daher der gefickt eingeschädelte Wechsel von EvilSteve zu Miniweich. In Steves Blog wird stehen: Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me! Evil Steve wird entsprechend OSM Imperator und kontrolliert die Welt/ das planet File da in der ODBL keine Sicherung gegen sowas eingebaut wurde. Nun bekommt auch Oracle Wind davon das OSM eine geladene Opensource Waffe ist mit der man sich noch nicht ins eigene Bein geschossen hat. Beim Americas Cup treten Captain Coast und Ellison mit hochgerüsteten Superschiffen gegeneinander an Captain Coast läuft bei Kap Horn auf ein Riff... an der Qualitätssicherung liegt das laut einem gewissen Frederik nicht sondern an den schlechten Sat-Bildern von Miniweich. ... Hm, ich ahne, dass die Sache Sprengkraft haben könnte, versteh aber mit meinem Schul-Englisch noch nicht alles so richtig. Grade im Blick auf die teilweise heftigen Reaktionen, die einige große Softwarefirmen hervorrufen, wenn sie sich der OpenSource Gemeinde nähern (vgl. OpenOffice ). Könnte mir mal jemand in meiner Muttersprache auch den genauen Vorgang erklären der dahinter steckt?? Bitte wenn möglich keine Spekulationen, das ufert dann immer so aus ;(( Gruß UMAX974 Am 23.11.2010 um 19:37 schrieb Walter Nordmann: hi, chrossposting hin - crossposting her: gerade im forum aufgeschnapt. http://blog.stevecoast.com/im-working-at-microsoft-and-were-donating-ima danke für die info an geogast. lg walter - Der Usus von Xenologismen ist auf ein Minimum zu reduzieren. -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/news-von-steve-coast-tp5767805p5767805.html Sent from the Germany mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de Steve stevecoast.com ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [OSM-talk] SotM11 will be held in Denver.
Believe it or not (and I look forward to the conspiracy theories on 80n's mailing list) it's one very large coincidence. I originally pushed Denver (where I live) with some folks here for SOTM-US and Eric asked me to help with the FOSS4G bid for 2010. Both fell through. Then Hurricane and others took the SOTM-US bid and turned that in to a SOTM 2011 bid, and Eric did a ton of work on FOSS4G 2011 and both came through. Personally I have always thought there should be a strong separation between the conferences, and have advocated that in both camps. I'm super glad SOTM is coming to the US, there's huge potential here. Denver's a great place and it's my hope that SOTM '11 in Denver will help form a stronger community here. Steve stevecoast.com On Oct 25, 2010, at 1:39 AM, Jukka Rahkonen wrote: SotM11 is planned to be arranged just after the FOSS4G conference. I do not believe it is an accident because Steve Coast and Mikel Maron are members of the FOSS4G Local Organizing Committee (http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/FOSS4G_2011_Denver_LOC). It can be a good idea if people can spend the whole week and take part in the both conferences. Or then somebody could have a speech in both conferences. After all, we are not so far away from the FOSS4G folks and software. OSM was very visible in FOSS4G this year but also we might have something to learn from the paleogis side. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-us] Request for community mediation
+1 On Oct 21, 2010, at 3:16 PM, Ian Dees wrote: I agree with Richard but I don't want to feed the trolls by responding (which is the policy of several other mailing list readers I know). On Oct 21, 2010 4:08 PM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 4:37 PM, Richard Weait rich...@weait.com wrote: On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 2:57 PM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: This discussion seems to have ended. Is it time to play spot the consensus yet? I've spotted the consensus. Stop your bickering. Either come to an agreement about this tagging, or ignore each other, but absolutely stop picking on each other. You and Frederick seem to be the only ones with that view who contributed to this thread. Do you have your mail client set to ignore the others? ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us Steve stevecoast.com ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [OSM-talk] Response to A critique of OpenStreetMap
On Oct 15, 2010, at 9:13 PM, Anthony wrote: I also haven't been kicked out of Wikipedia, though you have claimed it multiple times. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Raul654/Anthony_evidence#Anthony_DiPierro http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Logtype=blockpage=User:Anthony+DiPierro http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Anthony_DiPierroaction=historysubmitdiff=150082529oldid=127296822 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Anthonydiff=prevoldid=18550249 http://miamichaela.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/moron.jpg Steve stevecoast.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Code of Conduct: civil discussion, lists etc.
Oh hardly. All I have done is call out Anthony and link to the things he denies about wikipedia. You, too, are another example of someone using a fake name and occasionally trolling, Steve stevecoast.com On Oct 16, 2010, at 3:13 AM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: On 16 October 2010 19:08, Al Haraka alhar...@gmail.com wrote: initiatives mentioned before. However, I think we should keep it plain and simple and remove some caustic behavior that seems to be returning to the list after a hiatus. Collaboration and consideration Most of the caustic behaviour I've seen lately is from SteveC... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Code of Conduct: civil discussion, lists etc.
Steve stevecoast.com On Oct 16, 2010, at 8:43 AM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: On 17 October 2010 00:36, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: Oh hardly. All I have done is call out Anthony and link to the things he denies about wikipedia. What specifically has any of that to do with OSM? Because he's doing the same thing here. You, too, are another example of someone using a fake name and occasionally trolling, I wish you'd really stick to questions posed to you, instead all you come off as doing is complaining about the conduct of others and not addressing the questions posed to you. I wish i had a pony. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Code of Conduct: civil discussion, lists etc.
Well that's kind of hilarious given you cut out the first half of my email where I exactly answered your question Duane. Steve stevecoast.com On Oct 16, 2010, at 9:02 AM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: On 17 October 2010 00:58, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: I wish i had a pony. This is why things end up in a endless debate, people pose serious questions and you either can't be bothered, or won't respond properly so the debate can move forward. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Code of Conduct: civil discussion, lists etc.
Fair point Dave. I'm joining you guys and filtering from now on. :0: * ^(to|cc|bcc).*...@inbox.org|\ ^(to|cc|bcc).*deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com|\ ^(to|cc|bcc).*ed...@billiau.net .spam/ On Oct 16, 2010, at 9:25 AM, Dave Stubbs wrote: On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 4:02 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: On 17 October 2010 00:58, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: I wish i had a pony. This is why things end up in a endless debate, people pose serious questions and you either can't be bothered, or won't respond properly so the debate can move forward. I, and probably a lot of others, would rather a whole lot of people stopped posting to these lists. If someone posts a question or discussion point to the list we don't want to see a dozen trolls and a flame war attached. It happens. Without fail. Every single post. The people trolling, you know who you are. The people getting personal, you know who you are. Please, please stop it while there are still one or two people worth talking to left subscribed to the list. Oh, and ending this pointless little back and forth would be a good start. So +1 to Code of Conduct, although I think it's too late because too many people have already made the easiest filter configuration possible and unsubscribed. Dave ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk Steve stevecoast.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Code of Conduct: civil discussion, lists etc.
On Oct 16, 2010, at 9:50 AM, Iván Sánchez Ortega wrote: On Saturday 16 October 2010 17:40:36 SteveC wrote: :0: * ^(to|cc|bcc).*...@inbox.org|\ ^(to|cc|bcc).*deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com|\ ^(to|cc|bcc).*ed...@billiau.net .spam/ :0: * ^(to|cc|bcc).*...@inbox.org|\ ^(to|cc|bcc).*deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com|\ ^(to|cc|bcc).*ed...@billiau.net /dev/null ... is much more fun. another fair point! Steve stevecoast.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Response to A critique of OpenStreetMap
On Oct 15, 2010, at 8:36 AM, Randy Meech wrote: Why would you expect that? Randy Anthony is just trolling. He's been kicked out of wikipedia, as noted multiple times. Ignore him. On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 8:41 PM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 12:52 PM, Mike N. nice...@att.net wrote: And along those lines, based on the constructive criticism, the default map shown on the main OSM page should be a pretty map, using tiles from Mapquest, while mappers that have a need to view more details can select one of the existing map styles. Once OSM goes ODbL, I'd expect that Mapquest will stop licensing their tiles under a free license. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk Steve stevecoast.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Response to A critique of OpenStreetMap
On Oct 15, 2010, at 1:32 PM, Elizabeth Dodd wrote: On Fri, 15 Oct 2010 10:22:56 -0600 SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: Anthony is just trolling. He's been kicked out of wikipedia, as noted multiple times. Ignore him. That is untruthful. Which bit? Steve stevecoast.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[Talk-us] Detroit
Is anyone on this list in the Detroit metro area? I was hoping to speak at the LUG there, but can't, and it'd be nice if someone else could do a little OSM demo. Steve stevecoast.com ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Detroit
nov 13 On Oct 12, 2010, at 9:38 AM, Richard Weait wrote: On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 11:28 AM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: Is anyone on this list in the Detroit metro area? I was hoping to speak at the LUG there, but can't, and it'd be nice if someone else could do a little OSM demo. When? Steve stevecoast.com ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] SOTM bid- Denver
On Oct 12, 2010, at 11:56 AM, Katie Filbert wrote: I think the bid is very promising and would be happy to come to Denver Being strawman here, putting some issues and questions out... Take a look at Haifa's Wikimania bid page, and perhaps fill in some more details like what they provided http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2011/Bids/Haifa Especially, visas are going to be a concern. What is the team going to do to help facilitate getting visas and dealing with inevitable troubles Meh - it's just as big a problem in Europe. A bunch of people were denied. Also more specifics about venue... sounds like it's up in the air? Which is the most likely or best option of those listed? What buildings would we be in?what kind of space is there for plenary sessions? Social space? The dates for the conference are September--- during the fall semester. Will this be a problem? Is the venue available for the dates? Sponsorships... Do we have any sponsors committed yet? Maybe ad contigency of a winning bid? I think you should help answer these questions. Travel - SOTM has previously been held in Europe, which make it easier for OSM volunteers in Europe (much larger community) to attend. Could we this year raise some sponsorship money to fund scholarships to bring OSM volunteers to SOTM who otherwise cannot afford to attend. Previous scholarships were only for people from developing countries, which is good but let's do more. Wikimedia funds 40-50 volunteers to attend Wikimania, plus people funded by wikimedia chapters, and that makes the conference more inclusive Also take a look at last years SOTM bids for Barcelona that proposed doing FOSS4G and SOTM back to back. What were the reasons why the committee decided against it? For Denver, make sure to address any concerns that there might be about this Katie Sent from my iPhone On Oct 12, 2010, at 1:12 PM, Coast, Hurricane hurricane.co...@mapquest.com wrote: Hey North American OSMers, The Bids for State of the Map must be final by October 15th. Much work has been done on the Denver Bid page, but it still can use some spit and polish :) http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/State_Of_The_Map_2011/Bid/Denver Go ahead and give it a 5 minute look over and add your special touch More pictures (venues)? More names on the ‘who’s involved’. Remember you don’t have to be in Denver to help out! Let’s have a winning bid and host the 5th Annual SOTM in our ‘home’. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us Steve stevecoast.com ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [OSM-talk] If you've missed this ...
On Oct 6, 2010, at 9:23 AM, Nic Roets wrote: On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 4:09 PM, Richard Weait rich...@weait.com wrote: On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 10:01 AM, Stefan de Konink ste...@konink.de wrote: Op 06-10-10 15:12, Nic Roets schreef: On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 2:55 PM, TimSC mappingli...@sheerman-chase.org.uk wrote: On 06/10/10 00:59, Richard Weait wrote: http://opengeodata.org/osm-founder-steve-coast-leaves-cloudmade What, if any, impact does this have on OSM and OSMF, I wonder? It may remove a conflict of interest problem or two ?? He is still shareholder, as is stated in the message. That shows that there is a potential financial conflict of interest. For example if OSM switches license, it can be good for Cloudmade or bad for them, he could defend his own financial position. He will definitely be more independent now that he doesn't spend 8 hours a day in close proximity to the CM employees and he never has meetings with their lawyers (see some of the discussions on legal-talk in recent months). Y'all have a funny way of demonstrating your warm wishes for his future and presumption of good faith. Unlike you, I guess I'm just seeing him and his wife as ordinary members of the team (taking into account code written, keynote speeches etc). So yes, good luck to him and good luck to anyone else on this list changing careers. And saying someone has a conflict on interest is not an insult. Nor should it lead to automatic exclusion from debates or votes. But it should be mentioned. Thank you for your warm thoughts. Steve stevecoast.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Introducing Taginfo
Jochen this is level 17 awesome. The first thing I wanted to look at was this http://taginfo.openstreetmap.de/keys/FIXME and then go fix things near me. Maybe if I click on the map it could redirect to a nominatim search for that tag, if you can constrain the search to a bbox near where I click? On Oct 5, 2010, at 7:37 AM, Jochen Topf wrote: For the last months I have been working on a software called Taginfo that brings together information about OSM tags from the OSM database, the wiki and other places. Somewhat like Tagwatch, Tagstat, and OSMdoc, but more ambitious. :-) I am happy to announce that the beast is now available at http://taginfo.openstreetmap.de There are still some bugs and lots of missing features, but its already usable. Updates are currently done manually, but I will do automatic daily updates soon. All the software to run this is Open Source so please go ahead, run your own versions and send me patches. More details and background in my blog entry at: http://blog.jochentopf.com/2010-10-05-introducing-taginfo.html Bug reports and feature ideas welcome. Jochen -- Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org http://www.remote.org/jochen/ +49-721-388298 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk Steve stevecoast.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Introducing Taginfo
but the point is hooking the two things together? On Oct 5, 2010, at 9:18 AM, Jochen Topf wrote: On Tue, Oct 05, 2010 at 08:56:00AM -0600, SteveC wrote: The first thing I wanted to look at was this http://taginfo.openstreetmap.de/keys/FIXME and then go fix things near me. Maybe if I click on the map it could redirect to a nominatim search for that tag, if you can constrain the search to a bbox near where I click? You can use the OSM Inspector for that... http://tools.geofabrik.de/osmi/?view=tagginglon=-122.43938lat=37.73945zoom=12overlays=fixmes_on_nodes,fixmes_on_ways Jochen -- Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org http://www.remote.org/jochen/ +49-721-388298 Steve stevecoast.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] OS Opendata the new license
On Oct 1, 2010, at 6:54 PM, Anthony wrote: Where are you getting this information, anyway? I'd like to ask you kindly to stop lying about me. I have never been banned from Wikipedia. So you're not Anthony DiPierro then? Or are you merely playing with semantics that you weren't kicked, but your reverts and trolling were moderated? http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Anthony_DiPierrooldid=127296822 Money quote: Anthony is a troll if there ever was one. If needed, I can make a long list detailing his trolling, including his frivolous copyright complaints, his sabotaging of VfD, his creation of a purposeless Wikipedia fork named McFly, and his nonsensical article edits. His useful contributions, on the other hand, are negligible. I propose a permanent ban. That all sounds very familiar. Anthony if this isn't you please do tell who you are then? While we're at it - is John Smith actually Duane Groth? http://www.ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.2008/msg01341.html I don't think OSM should become a honey pot or home for a loose band of trolls who've had various run ins with every other major project. On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 8:10 PM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: On Oct 1, 2010, at 5:18 PM, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: This message has gone OT. On 01/10/2010 19:38, SteveC wrote: Both are very easy to discover. Hell, you can even get my phone number from my website. What do you want, a medal? Yes please. The hint is in the signature. You on the other hand actively hide your real name, And how does that detract from a persons argument? Because if someone is continually trolling, which is what's happening it isn't a mere disagreement, then it's highly relevant that the person was kicked out of the largest crowd sourced project for doing the same thing. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk Steve stevecoast.com ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] OS Opendata the new license
On Oct 2, 2010, at 5:16 PM, Anthony wrote: On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 6:54 PM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote a bunch of stuff. I'd like to further ask that you do not repost private messages on a public message board. Your behavior is unacceptable, and I'm not going to respond to it with more information for you to continue your campaign of lies and harassment. Amazingly your domain name, inbox.org, is listed as owned by one Anthony DiPierro. So I guess what you're saying is that's not the trolling Anthony DiPierro who was subject to all those problems in wikipedia then? And it's a coincidence that your name is Anthony and you troll our groups now? Glad it's all cleared up. Steve stevecoast.com ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] OS Opendata the new license
On Oct 1, 2010, at 6:43 AM, Richard Fairhurst wrote: TimSC wrote: It may be possible to argue that OSMF did try to engage the community. Rather than me try to make the case, it's more fun seeing what justifications people are trying to use on the mailing list! Seriously? You actually see this as some sort of trolling contest, trying to get a rise out of people because it's more fun? I've been taking part in the debate because I'm keen to see that OpenStreetMap has the best licence possible and the most high-quality geodata under that licence. I realise Liz has already posted elsewhere that she's aiming to be disruptive, but I hadn't realised that it was some form of sub-4chan concerted trolling expedition. You must be new here... Personally I think it's time to consider kickbanning the trolls with the fake names. Half of them got booted from wikipedia it seems, so I don't see why we have to put up with it. Steve stevecoast.com ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] OS Opendata the new license
On Oct 1, 2010, at 12:20 PM, Anthony wrote: On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 9:58 AM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: Personally I think it's time to consider kickbanning the trolls with the fake names. TimSC is a fake name? If so, what's SteveC? Both are very easy to discover. Hell, you can even get my phone number from my website. The hint is in the signature. You on the other hand actively hide your real name, and the fact you were banned from wikipedia. Or would you like to correct me? And, also, when I questioned you about it on the 80n mailing list, he apparently moderated my post. Steve stevecoast.com ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] OS Opendata the new license
On Oct 1, 2010, at 5:18 PM, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: This message has gone OT. On 01/10/2010 19:38, SteveC wrote: Both are very easy to discover. Hell, you can even get my phone number from my website. What do you want, a medal? Yes please. The hint is in the signature. You on the other hand actively hide your real name, And how does that detract from a persons argument? Because if someone is continually trolling, which is what's happening it isn't a mere disagreement, then it's highly relevant that the person was kicked out of the largest crowd sourced project for doing the same thing. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM User Testing
On Sep 29, 2010, at 11:27 AM, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote: On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 15:34, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: Those people fill out a form and are invited later to use some simple online screen capturing software while asked to do some simple tasks and this is where you come in. What screen capturing software package is it? I believe it is http://www.usertesting.com/ Steve stevecoast.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM User Testing
On Sep 30, 2010, at 10:40 AM, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote: On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 16:20, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: On Sep 29, 2010, at 11:27 AM, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote: On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 15:34, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: Those people fill out a form and are invited later to use some simple online screen capturing software while asked to do some simple tasks and this is where you come in. What screen capturing software package is it? I believe it is http://www.usertesting.com/ So, a Windows only client: http://www.usertesting.com/popups/ApplicantFAQs.aspx Feel free to suggest something 'better' then. Steve stevecoast.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] OSM User Testing
sounds like you should join us in SF! On Sep 30, 2010, at 10:52 AM, Peter Batty wrote: I think it's great that something is being done on this. Personally I would suggest finding a few volunteers to be tested and sit in a room with them. You don't need a lot of people to find the key issues and I think you get more from seeing them do it in person and having them think out loud rather than using remote screen recording software. I've posted this before but I highly recommend this book on usability testing, Don't make me think, it's a very quick read: http://amzn.to/9A5LTz Just my few cents! On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 10:42 AM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: On Sep 30, 2010, at 10:40 AM, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote: On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 16:20, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: On Sep 29, 2010, at 11:27 AM, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote: On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 15:34, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: Those people fill out a form and are invited later to use some simple online screen capturing software while asked to do some simple tasks and this is where you come in. What screen capturing software package is it? I believe it is http://www.usertesting.com/ So, a Windows only client: http://www.usertesting.com/popups/ApplicantFAQs.aspx Feel free to suggest something 'better' then. Steve stevecoast.com ___ Talk-us mailing list talk...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us Steve stevecoast.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] OSM User Testing
On Sep 29, 2010, at 11:27 AM, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote: On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 15:34, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: Those people fill out a form and are invited later to use some simple online screen capturing software while asked to do some simple tasks and this is where you come in. What screen capturing software package is it? I believe it is http://www.usertesting.com/ Steve stevecoast.com ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] OSM User Testing
On Sep 30, 2010, at 10:40 AM, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote: On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 16:20, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: On Sep 29, 2010, at 11:27 AM, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote: On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 15:34, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: Those people fill out a form and are invited later to use some simple online screen capturing software while asked to do some simple tasks and this is where you come in. What screen capturing software package is it? I believe it is http://www.usertesting.com/ So, a Windows only client: http://www.usertesting.com/popups/ApplicantFAQs.aspx Feel free to suggest something 'better' then. Steve stevecoast.com ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
