Re: Which one?

[Goos]

Whether or not a coincidence. :-)

For those who can read German RitLabs published at their Facebook page
information with a good (silent) step-by-step instruction video how to setup
and use S/MIME the built-in encryption:
https://www.facebook.com/ritlabs/posts/1887696304840160:0

I do not know if this is also available in English, neither do I have got
permission to copy/paste that information into this mailing list.
Perhaps RitLabs can say more about this.

Regards,
Gunivortus



Current version is 7.1 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Which one?

[MFPA]

Hi


On Wednesday 12 April 2017 at 1:02:57 PM, in
, Goos wrote:-


> The main issue for me is, that it is not
> understandable how it works,
> what exactly to do to get it working, and that it
> does not work intuitive
> or even already is implemented in The Bat.
> You've really to dive in it.

How it works is irrelevant to most people; millions who use mobile
phones have little or no understanding of how they work.

What to do to get it working is the important one. 

The gpg4win README file points you to the installation instructions in
the online gpg4win compendium. Reading on through the compendium, it
gives a step-by-step guide to creating a basic OpenPGP key pair (or
"certificate") using a wizard in the Kleopatra certificate manager.
The subsequent chapters can be read later (although 8.1 about
practising messages to and from the Adele robot is probably useful).

Once you have created a key you can go ahead and start using it to
sign messages you send and to decrypt messages you receive that are
encrypted to it. The Bat!'s help file contains several pages about
OpenPGP, although some go into a confusing amount of detail. You do
not have to use macros or use a different message template unless you
want to; there are checkboxes under Account | Properties | Options to
automate it. And options under the "privacy" menu in the message
editor to over-ride your default settings for the current message.



> Why I need a public
> and a private
> key, 

Search "public key cryptography". 
 is a good place to 
start.



> and how to configure things in The Bat to get it
> all working at
> writng and receiving encrypted mails.

Checkboxes under Account | Properties | Options to set your defaults.
And options under the "privacy" menu in the message editor to
over-ride your default settings for the current message.



>   send to the keyserver or your mail partners.
> Again: Keyserver? Which keyserver? Where? What does
> it cost?

The gpg4win compendium says at the bottom of this page
 that
"If you export your certificate without first having configured an
OpenPGP certificate server, Kleopatra will suggest the default server
hkp://keys.gnupg.net." That's as good as any to begin with; keys
uploaded to one keyserver propogate to most others. There is no cost.



> After I also had made some remarks in Facebook, I've
> got last evening
> a test mail from a guy which included a PGP key. So I
> reinstalled
> temporarily GnuPG but that did not make the mail more
> readable.
> I did not know what to do with that mail first and
> neither had the
> stimulus to find it out.

I would expect clicking the security button The Bat! displays at the
top right of messages that are signed, encrypted, and/or have a key
attached would offer some clues.



> As I wrote before.
> IF a real step-by step instruction from installing
> onto having sent
> and received enxrypted mail, I may have succeeded.
> For example,
> starting with:
> STEP 1:
> Open your browser and copy/paste this link in it to
> call this site:
>  https://gpg4win.org/download.html
> STEP 2:
> Goto the map on your computer where that file is
> saved and click on it
> to install the program:
> STEP 3:
> While installing your are prompted for .
> etc. etc. going on to send an encrypted mail to
> someone and receiving
> one where all works.

If you don't think the The Gpg4win Compendium  at 
 does a good 
enough job of this, there are mailing lists and web forums listed at 
.



> Yet, it is al relative...
> For me, working with Adobe Indesign has become easy
> and understandable.
> But in the beginning there was such a step-by-step
> instruction to get
> that program working and an excellent community where
> I could ask
> my 'dummy' beginner questions which were all the time
> friendly and
> easy and instructive answered. That motivated to go on.

Such communities exist for gpg4win, as well as for other GnuPG
packages/frontends, for GnuPG itself, and for OpenPGP in general. This
mailing list is for The Bat! itself, and people here could potentially
have helped you with the TB! side of things. But it was not clear what
you were trying to achieve with templates and macros, nor what you had
tried in your efforts to achieve it.



> OK, further discussion is pointless for me, as I
> removed all GnuPG stuff
> now and am satisfied with VPN.  

I wish you well with that. Hopefully you are aware that using a VPN
addresses a different problem. As far as email is concerned, it will
only offer increased security between your computer and your mail
server; it adds no benefit to the mail at rest on your server, nor in
transit between your server and your correspondents.


-- 
Best regards

MFPA  

Re: Which one?

[Martin]

Hi Goos

On Wednesday, April 12, 2017 2:02:57 PM you wrote:

> For YOU it may be simple, for ME it is complicated. OK, installing is
> easy, but the next steps aren't. Why I need a public and a private
> key, and how to configure things in The Bat to get it all working at
> writng and receiving encrypted mails.

As I wrote - if you drive a car you have to learn a little bit about
how this works. With encrypted mail it's the same thing.

The private key (secret and save to store) is to sign YOUR mail and to
decrypt encrypted mail you get.

With your public key (which goes to public (server or some one else))
somebody can encrypt a mail to you.

> As I in my previous mails wrote about making two different templates,
> you wrote:
>  In the  editor window when you edit your message you can
>  push the button if you want to sign or / and encrypt the
>  message.
> THE button? It did not help me. Which button, where to find?

In the editor window you have two buttons: Sign and Encrypt your mail
https://i.imgur.com/UrmZZlb.png

> You also wrote:
>   send to the keyserver or your mail partners.
> Again: Keyserver? Which keyserver? Where? What does it cost?

GnuPG tools in gpg2win (GPA or Kleopatra) can send your key(s) to a
keyserver. This is free.

> OK, I was not motivated anymore to put those questions. No need
> anymore to answer them.

Strange... When you buy a mowing machine you read at first the manual.
Why don't you read the manual for GnuPG?

> After I also had made some remarks in Facebook,

I don't have Facebook.

>  I've got last evening
> a test mail from a guy which included a PGP key. So I reinstalled
> temporarily GnuPG but that did not make the mail more readable.

GnuPG doesn't make something with your mail It's the client which
takes care of the mail - GnuPG is used to encrypt or decrypt the
mail.

> I did not know what to do with that mail first and neither had the
> stimulus to find it out.

> As I wrote before.
> IF a real step-by step instruction from installing onto having sent
> and received enxrypted mail, I may have succeeded. For example,

Step for Step is difficult. Because there are different Email Clients
and there is no description for all.

> STEP 1:
> Open your browser and copy/paste this link in it to call this site:
>  https://gpg4win.org/download.html

Ok.

> STEP 2:
> Goto the map on your computer where that file is saved and click on it
> to install the program:

Ok.

> STEP 3:
> While installing your are prompted for .
> etc. etc. going on to send an encrypted mail to someone and receiving
> one where all works.

gpg2win is installing the GnuPG part on your computer. But you have to
enable your Email client to use GnuPG. So it depends on your mail
client what to to next - there are other steps to go.

 > OK, further discussion is pointless for me, as I removed all GnuPG stuff
> now and am satisfied with VPN.

Your removed GnuPG? So your are not willing to learn something new?

Well then - bye bye.

-- 
Best regards,
   Martin
   dagob...@yahoo.com

TheBat! 7.4.16.3 (BETA) Pro (with OTFE) on Windows 7 6.1 7601 Service Pack 1



Current version is 7.1 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Which one?

[Adrian Godfrey]

Wednesday, April 12, 2017, 2:02:57 PM, you wrote:

> I think the main issue is that most people cannot be bothered to 
>>> encrypt or digitally sign their email, irrespective of ease or 
>>> difficulty. Being unable to get friends or family members to do so is 
>>> almost the default

Getting   family to even use ANY email client instead of
web browsers or WhatsApp is a perpetual struggle.

Adrian



Current version is 7.1 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Which one?

[Goos]

>> I think the main issue is that most people cannot be bothered to 
>> encrypt or digitally sign their email, irrespective of ease or 
>> difficulty. Being unable to get friends or family members to do so is 
>> almost the default.

The main issue for me is, that it is not understandable how it works,
what exactly to do to get it working, and that it does not work intuitive
or even already is implemented in The Bat.
You've really to dive in it.

> As long as everybody tells you that to encrypt mails (with GnuPG or
> other tools) is so complicated nothing will change - you are right.
> But with gpg4win it is now quite simple to enable clients (TheBat,
> Thunderbird, ClawsMail and more) to use GnuPG.

For YOU it may be simple, for ME it is complicated. OK, installing is
easy, but the next steps aren't. Why I need a public and a private
key, and how to configure things in The Bat to get it all working at
writng and receiving encrypted mails.
As I in my previous mails wrote about making two different templates,
you wrote:
 In the  editor window when you edit your message you can
 push the button if you want to sign or / and encrypt the
 message.
THE button? It did not help me. Which button, where to find?
You also wrote:
  send to the keyserver or your mail partners.
Again: Keyserver? Which keyserver? Where? What does it cost?
OK, I was not motivated anymore to put those questions. No need
anymore to answer them.

After I also had made some remarks in Facebook, I've got last evening
a test mail from a guy which included a PGP key. So I reinstalled
temporarily GnuPG but that did not make the mail more readable.
I did not know what to do with that mail first and neither had the
stimulus to find it out.

As I wrote before.
IF a real step-by step instruction from installing onto having sent
and received enxrypted mail, I may have succeeded. For example,
starting with:
STEP 1:
Open your browser and copy/paste this link in it to call this site:
 https://gpg4win.org/download.html
STEP 2:
Goto the map on your computer where that file is saved and click on it
to install the program:
STEP 3:
While installing your are prompted for .
etc. etc. going on to send an encrypted mail to someone and receiving
one where all works.

On the other hand, the often made remark RTFM is the right way for me
to drop it.

> But it is true, prejudices are hard do brake.

That is a  thought-terminating cliché, not worth discussing it.

Yet, it is al relative...
For me, working with Adobe Indesign has become easy and understandable.
But in the beginning there was such a step-by-step instruction to get
that program working and an excellent community where I could ask
my 'dummy' beginner questions which were all the time friendly and
easy and instructive answered. That motivated to go on.

OK, further discussion is pointless for me, as I removed all GnuPG stuff
now and am satisfied with VPN.

-- 
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Gunivortus



Current version is 7.1 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Which one?

[Martin]

Hi MFPA

On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 11:03:27 PM you wrote:

> I think the main issue is that most people cannot be bothered to 
> encrypt or digitally sign their email, irrespective of ease or 
> difficulty. Being unable to get friends or family members to do so is 
> almost the default.

As long as everybody tells you that to encrypt mails (with GnuPG or
other tools) is so complicated nothing will change - you are right.

But with gpg4win it is now quite simple to enable clients (TheBat,
Thunderbird, ClawsMail and more) to use GnuPG.

But it is true, prejudices are hard do brake.

-- 
Best regards,
   Martin
   dagob...@yahoo.com

TheBat! 7.4.16.3 (BETA) Pro (with OTFE) on Windows 7 6.1 7601 Service Pack 1

pgpKmHwsDrJWz.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Current version is 7.1 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Which one?

[MFPA]

Hi


On Tuesday 11 April 2017 at 5:18:57 PM, in
, Martin wrote:-

> If you have it - you can send him encrypted mail. And
> if you sent him
> your question with your signature he has your public
> key and he is
> able to send you encrypted mail.  

I think the main issue is that most people cannot be bothered to 
encrypt or digitally sign their email, irrespective of ease or 
difficulty. Being unable to get friends or family members to do so is 
almost the default.


-- 
Best regards

MFPA  

A bus station is where a bus stops. 
A train station is where a train stops. 
On my desk there is a work station.

Using The Bat! v7.4.16 on Windows 10.0 Build 14393  



Current version is 7.1 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Which one?

[MFPA]

Hi


On Tuesday 11 April 2017 at 8:22:25 PM, in
, Martin wrote:-


> If Windows 10 handles it so complicated - I can't
> give you any hint
> because I am using Windows 7 and I will never change
> to Windows 10.

I have no such issues with GnuPG on Windows 10. I probably do not use 
the same "protection tools". (My anti-virus is Avast.)

-- 
Best regards

MFPA  

Always borrow money from a pessimist - they don't expect it back

Using The Bat! v7.4.16 on Windows 10.0 Build 14393  



Current version is 7.1 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Which one?

[Martin]

Hi Goos

On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 7:39:07 PM you wrote:

  > At first the GnuPG program did not install correctly, due to my protection
> tools. I had to delete it and clean the registry and then, after a reboot, a
> new install succeeded because I then was prepared to make whitelist entries
> in those tools.

If Windows 10 handles it so complicated - I can't give you any hint
because I am using Windows 7 and I will never change to Windows 10.

> Then keys had to be created. I did not understand why two of them, which
> costed time to read a manual - it is not really intuitive.

Why two? When you create your private key (with the secret and which
you have to save) also the public key is created which you send to the
keyserver or your mail partners. So not really complicated.

> Then The Bat had to be changed - I had to make templates for all my
> accounts; each time a template which did use the encryption and one
> who didn't. That failed.

Why this? You need (really?) only one template for an account. In the
editor window when you edit your message you can push the button if
you want to sign or / and encrypt the message.

>  Before I did not work with templates at all,
> just took TB as it was installed. Only years ago I added a macro that
> someone posted here and wrote where exactly to put it. Think, it was
> MAU.

Why to use macros? If you set your TheBat to German language the
templates for new mail, replay and forward are already there - also in
German.

> But further, I am not experienced at all with those functions of TB
> not interested in it.

Which features?

> Then I tried similar at another email program with another
> emailaddress to have at least some keys to exchange. I did not know
> how to implement them - had to search again where and how to handle
> that - meanwhile I was already completely demotivated by that all.
> I also failed to make there templates.

Again, why templates. And you don't have to "import keys" - this is
GnuPG which is handling with keys, not the email client.

Which other email client are you trying?

> Because I did not find a simple step-by-step instruction what where
> and when to do - I did not get such a help here - I asked for it in a social
> medium. Someone there offered my a free Skype course in PGP (not how
> to handle it in The Bat), but advised me to let it and to get VPN.

VPN isn't an alternative for encrypted mail in my opinion.

> I still do not really understand the function of those encryption
> programs, but simply followed Max' suggestion to install GnuPG as I
> asked which PGP tool I should install best. I even had to ask here
> whether gpg4win was the tool Max meant.

So you installed gpg4win?

> Then, no one of the people who I asked it for, was willing to use
> GnuPG or some other PGP tool - they also had negative experiences -
> too much time, too much to read and understand.

I don't have these negative experiences.

> I followed that VPN advise, accepted the offer from NordVPN and, with a
> little direct help from them (via a live chat on their site) the whole thing 
> was
> done and running within ten minutes, while that GnuPG was not working in TB
> for days.

For VPN I can't give support - as said, it's not an alternative IMHO.

> Implementing PGP in The Bat and getting it all working is complicated
> for someone who just wants his email more protected, but who is not
> really interested in lots of installing, configuring, reading docs and
> manuals and trying out such technical things.

To have something but not to be interested in - well this is "a little
bit" complicated I think. You want to drive but you are not interested
in traffic rules and to learn how to drive a car? Really?

PS. Wir können auch in Deutsch kommunizieren... privat, nicht hier in
der List. Chat auf XMPP.

--
Best regards,
   Martin
   dagob...@yahoo.com

TheBat! 7.4.16.3 (BETA) Pro (with OTFE) on Windows 7 6.1 7601 Service Pack 1



Current version is 7.1 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Which one?

[Goos]

> Why? On Windows you install gpg4win and probably you have already
> installed an email client which supports GnuPG. So you generate your
> key and you are done.
> What can be complicated with this?

This will be a little longer 

At first the GnuPG program did not install correctly, due to my protection
tools. I had to delete it and clean the registry and then, after a reboot, a
new install succeeded because I then was prepared to make whitelist entries
in those tools.
Then keys had to be created. I did not understand why two of them, which
costed time to read a manual - it is not really intuitive.
Then The Bat had to be changed - I had to make templates for all my
accounts; each time a template which did use the encryption and one
who didn't. That failed. Before I did not work with templates at all,
just took TB as it was installed. Only years ago I added a macro that
someone posted here and wrote where exactly to put it. Think, it was
MAU.
But further, I am not experienced at all with those functions of TB
not interested in it.
Then I tried similar at another email program with another
emailaddress to have at least some keys to exchange. I did not know
how to implement them - had to search again where and how to handle
that - meanwhile I was already completely demotivated by that all.
I also failed to make there templates.

Because I did not find a simple step-by-step instruction what where
and when to do - I did not get such a help here - I asked for it in a social
medium. Someone there offered my a free Skype course in PGP (not how
to handle it in The Bat), but advised me to let it and to get VPN.
I still do not really understand the function of those encryption
programs, but simply followed Max' suggestion to install GnuPG as I
asked which PGP tool I should install best. I even had to ask here
whether gpg4win was the tool Max meant.

Then, no one of the people who I asked it for, was willing to use
GnuPG or some other PGP tool - they also had negative experiences -
too much time, too much to read and understand.

I followed that VPN advise, accepted the offer from NordVPN and, with a
little direct help from them (via a live chat on their site) the whole thing was
done and running within ten minutes, while that GnuPG was not working in TB
for days.

That's it.
Implementing PGP in The Bat and getting it all working is complicated
for someone who just wants his email more protected, but who is not
really interested in lots of installing, configuring, reading docs and
manuals and trying out such technical things.

-- 
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Gunivortus
mailto:g...@boudicca.de



Current version is 7.1 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Which one?

[Martin]

Hi Adrian

On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 6:04:35 PM you wrote:

> Irrespective  of  whether it is simple or not, how do you avoid asking
> everybody  else  whether  they  can  receive  PGP  mails and of course
> communicating the keys?

I am not sure if I understand your question correctly. But you must
have the public key of your addressee - so you download it from a key
server, download it from a Web site of the user or you already got a
sign message of him or you contact him once to get the key.

If you have it - you can send him encrypted mail. And if you sent him
your question with your signature he has your public key and he is
able to send you encrypted mail.

-- 
Best regards,
   Martin
   dagob...@yahoo.com

TheBat! 7.4.16.3 (BETA) Pro (with OTFE) on Windows 7 6.1 7601 Service Pack 1

pgpQbLhJ5r5ZV.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Current version is 7.1 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Which one?

[Adrian Godfrey]

Tuesday, April 11, 2017, 4:16:32 PM, you wrote:

> Email clients TheBat, Thunderbird or ClawsMail on Windows (also with
> gpg4win installed) are very simple to use. On Linux it is simple as
> well.

Irrespective  of  whether it is simple or not, how do you avoid asking
everybody  else  whether  they  can  receive  PGP  mails and of course
communicating the keys?

Adrian



Current version is 7.1 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Which one?

[Martin]

Hi Goos

On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 4:21:39 PM you wrote:

> From my own experience and of two friends with whom I tried together to
> get it running, I completely disagree. It is NOT simple, it is complicated
> and has already cost me too much time.

Why? On Windows you install gpg4win and probably you have already
installed an email client which supports GnuPG. So you generate your
key and you are done.

What can be complicated with this?

-- 
Best regards,
   Martin
   dagob...@yahoo.com

TheBat! 7.4.16.3 (BETA) Pro (with OTFE) on Windows 7 6.1 7601 Service Pack 1



Current version is 7.1 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Which one?

[Goos]

>>  My conclusion: PGP is (still) something for interested freaks.

> This is now quite old prejudice.
> Email clients TheBat, Thunderbird or ClawsMail on Windows (also with
> gpg4win installed) are very simple to use. On Linux it is simple as
> well.

From my own experience and of two friends with whom I tried together to
get it running, I completely disagree. It is NOT simple, it is complicated
and has already cost me too much time.

-- 
Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Gunivortus



Current version is 7.1 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Which one?

[Martin]

Hi Goos

On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 3:38:43 PM you wrote:

>  My conclusion: PGP is (still) something for interested freaks.

This is now quite old prejudice.

Email clients TheBat, Thunderbird or ClawsMail on Windows (also with
gpg4win installed) are very simple to use. On Linux it is simple as
well.

-- 
Best regards,
   Martin
   dagob...@yahoo.com

TheBat! 7.4.16.3 (BETA) Pro (with OTFE) on Windows 7 6.1 7601 Service Pack 1

pgpqMVyBbG8J1.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Current version is 7.1 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Which one?

[Goos]

 > I have GnuPG installed

 Well, I had.
 What a rigmarole!
 Getting GnuPG working is laborious and quite time-consuming
 and because I could not find a good beginners help, I gave up and
 deleted the program.
 My conclusion: PGP is (still) something for interested freaks.

 Instead, I am using (paid) VPN now and hope all my internet
 activities, including the mail transport is protected.

 Thanks to those who reacted for thinking aong with me.

 Regards,
 Gunivortus



Current version is 7.1 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Which one?

[MFPA]

Hi


On Friday 7 April 2017 at 4:05:04 PM, in
, Goos wrote:-


> And their encryption tool also has to be Gnu PG? Or
> doesn't it matter which
> one they use?  

GnuPG or PGP or any other tool which implements the OpenPGP protocol.




-- 
Best regards

MFPA  

Don't learn safety rules by accident... 

Using The Bat! v7.4.16 on Windows 10.0 Build 14393  



Current version is 7.1 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Which one?

[Martin]

Hi Dirk

On Monday, April 10, 2017 8:23:38 AM you wrote:

> Mailbox.org generates a new key for the (new) adress - same you
> should do, if you set up an account at any other provider. This key
> is downloadable and ready for import in your local keyring, so you
> can use the key (and the mail account) outside the WebMail application.

With other words: The private key is stored on the server of the mail
provider? No, that is not secure in my opinion.

> Do you use WebMail from your local machine? I mean - if not, you
> will not have the problem. Otherwise: Why not use an dedicated mail
> client there? It's YOUR machine, you have the possibility to use one...

I am using email clients with GnuPG support and I don't like Webmail
at all. But the orignal post asked for GnuPG support for Webmail.

> If you don't like the idea to store all information about your keys
> in the browser - so try yubikey[4] (or any other OpenPGP smartcard).
> The secret key will not work without your yubikey, even if anyone
> has access to your (unsecured) machine.

As said - I am using TheBat (or ClawsMail, Thunderbird on Windows or
Linux, R2Mail2 on Android ) with GnuPG support and these clients are
calling the GnuPG with local stored keys. For me there is no need to
change something and such a setup can be used by other users, too.

> It's to tricky - you will use that once or twice. Afterwards we
> will have minimum one more user telling that encryption (and
> decryption) is a really nice feature but not for him, because it's so tricky 
> in use. ;-)

No, its not tricky.

> I used GPGRelay [3] for a long time - it was (is) a local relay
> server, signing (or encrypting) all outgoing mail and decrypting
> incoming - with minimal interaction (caching passphrases locally for
> some time) with the user. But unfortunately it was discontinued some years 
> ago.

Yes I know this, too. Also a good solution if you want encyrypt/sign
all your mail. With clients you are more flexible to choose what you
will do - encrypt, sign, both or nothing - according to your
addressee.

-- 
Best regards,
   Martin
   dagob...@yahoo.com

TheBat! 7.4.16.3 (BETA) Pro (with OTFE) on Windows 7 6.1 7601 Service Pack 1



Current version is 7.1 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
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Re: Which one?

[Adrian Godfrey]

Monday, April 10, 2017, 9:16:06 AM, you wrote:

> Instead, two of them counter-proposed to use VPN.

A VPN is much easier. If you use a mobile device for email, a VPN will
work there as well.

Trying to guess which recioients use PGP (and most people don't) 

Even worse for mails you receive as they can come from anywhere.

Adrian

-- 
Best regards,
 Adrianmailto:li...@ags.lu



Current version is 7.1 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
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Re: Which one?

[Goos]

> If you already have GnuPG (or PGP) installed,

I have GnuPG installed but failed to make a The Bat
new mail template ... despite the help site.
Moreover, I do not know how to organize it automated
in TB to use GnuPG with contacts who also use it and not
to use it with those who don't.
Neither do I know if it also works when people use another
PGP program.
Anyway, I wrote simple mails to some people proposing to
use mail encryption, but they all considered it too much work
(it indeed would include to dive into the matter ... docs, manuals
to understand it and to implement it).
Instead, two of them counter-proposed to use VPN.

Resuming, I have to admit, that encrypting mail is still a
complicated issue for someone who does not know the
subject matter - IMO that hasn't become much easier
since I in vain tried it some 5 years ago.
Well, at least, secure sending and recieving does work.

Rather disappointed,
Gunivortus



Current version is 7.1 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
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Re: Which one?

[Dirk Zemisch]

Moin Martin, hello list

> Martin Schoch  wrote yesterday @18:06:

>> I personally use Mailbox.org [1], but there are some others too. [2]
 
> Ok. But if you really want to setup a fresh new account to use GnuPG?

If you like to start using openPGP (PGP or GnuPG) with a fresh account - so why 
not start with mailbox.org (or the equivalent at Posteo)?

These accounts are fully accessible though WebMail and/or a dedicated mail 
client with OpenPGP support (there were named some in the thread). And you can 
use them with TheBat! of course (returning to the list subject).

Mailbox.org generates a new key for the (new) adress - same you should do, if 
you set up an account at any other provider. This key is downloadable and ready 
for import in your local keyring, so you can use the key (and the mail account) 
outside the WebMail application.

If you already have GnuPG (or PGP) installed, you also have an mail adress 
connected to this key. And hopefully access to the account behind the adress. 
;-) Here you have the chance to use Mailvelope in WebMail. 

>> Generally  you  can  try  to  use  Mailvelope  [3]  for  most  webmail
>> applications. It's a browser extension enabling OpenPGP.
 
> I am not happy with this solution. Why to setup the keys or import (to
> which location) your keys again? I want to use GnuPG on my local
> machine with keys stored on my local machine.

Do you use WebMail from your local machine? I mean - if not, you will not have 
the problem. Otherwise: Why not use an dedicated mail client there? It's YOUR 
machine, you have the possibility to use one...

But if you like to use both, I found the following in the mailvelope FAQ:

"Mailvelope stores the keys in the local storage of the browser and only there. 
This is a file in the user data directory of Chrome or the profiles folder of 
Firefox. If you clear temporary browsing data this will not affect the key 
storage of Mailvelope. If you delete the Mailvelope Chrome extension, then the 
key storage will also be removed from your file system. On Firefox there is an 
additional confirmation dialog once you remove the Mailvelope add-on that 
allows to delete all keys or leave them in the profile folder of the system."

So the keys will not leave your local system if you don't export them to a key 
server.

If you don't like the idea to store all information about your keys in the 
browser - so try yubikey[4] (or any other OpenPGP smartcard). The secret key 
will not work without your yubikey, even if anyone has access to your 
(unsecured) machine.

For further information I recommend Simon Josefsson's blog [1] and the very 
helpful article about offline keys there [2].

>>> You could use WinPT to encrypt your mail locally and copy the encrypted 
>>> ascii armor file
>> I would *not* recommend this.
> And why not?

It's to tricky - you will use that once or twice. Afterwards we will have 
minimum one more user telling that encryption (and decryption) is a really nice 
feature but not for him, because it's so tricky in use. ;-)

I used GPGRelay [3] for a long time - it was (is) a local relay server, signing 
(or encrypting) all outgoing mail and decrypting incoming - with minimal 
interaction (caching passphrases locally for some time) with the user. But 
unfortunately it was discontinued some years ago.

[1] https://blog.josefsson.org/
[2] 
https://blog.josefsson.org/2014/06/23/offline-gnupg-master-key-and-subkeys-on-yubikey-neo-smartcard/
[3] https://sourceforge.net/projects/gpgrelay/
[4] https://www.yubico.com/

Regards,
Dirk


Current version is 7.1 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
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Re: Which one?

[Martin Schoch]

Hi Dirk

Thanks for your input.

On Sunday, April 9, 2017 9:48:11 AM you wrote:
> I personally use Mailbox.org [1], but there are some others too. [2]

Ok. But if you really want to setup a fresh new account to use GnuPG?

> Generally  you  can  try  to  use  Mailvelope  [3]  for  most  webmail
> applications. It's a browser extension enabling OpenPGP.

I am not happy with this solution. Why to setup the keys or import (to
which location) your keys again? I want to use GnuPG on my local
machine with keys stored on my local machine.

>> You could use WinPT to encrypt your mail
>> locally and copy the encrypted ascii armor file to the webmail text
>> field. But this is not a very nice solution IMHO.

> I would *not* recommend this.

And why not?

-- 
Best regards,
   Martin
   dagob...@yahoo.com

TheBat! 7.4.16.3 (BETA) Pro (with OTFE) on Windows 7 6.1 7601 Service Pack 1



Current version is 7.1 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
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Re: Which one?

[Dirk Zemisch]

Good morning List,

the day before yesterday (on 04/07/2017 at 17:32) Martin Schoch chipped in:

> Mail on Webmail with GnuPG is quite difficult - I don't know any
> provider which support this.

It's  not  easy - but far not as difficult as it was one or more years
ago.

There  are some providers, even here in Germany, providing Signing and
encrypting mails in WebMail.

I personally use Mailbox.org [1], but there are some others too. [2]

Generally  you  can  try  to  use  Mailvelope  [3]  for  most  webmail
applications. It's a browser extension enabling OpenPGP.

> You could use WinPT to encrypt your mail
> locally and copy the encrypted ascii armor file to the webmail text
> field. But this is not a very nice solution IMHO.

I would *not* recommend this.

[1] https://mailbox.org/en/
[2] https://posteo.de/en
https://gmx.net
(Details in german: https://www.gmx.net/mail/sicherheit/pgp/details/)
[3] https://www.mailvelope.com/en

-- 
Regards,
Dirk



Current version is 7.1 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
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Re: Which one?

[Martin Schoch]

Hi Goos

On Friday, April 7, 2017 5:03:18 PM you wrote:

> Then, I have to convince first some to also install GnuPG in their
> mailclient - if they are using webmail, thea, in turn, have to ask
> that to their admins?

Mail on Webmail with GnuPG is quite difficult - I don't know any
provider which support this. You could use WinPT to encrypt your mail
locally and copy the encrypted ascii armor file to the webmail text
field. But this is not a very nice solution IMHO.

To use GnuPG is better with mail client (like TheBat or
Thunderbird/Enigmail or ClawsMail for Windows and more for Linux and
others for Android).

https://gnupg.org/software/frontends.html

-- 
Best regards,
   Martin
   dagob...@yahoo.com

TheBat! 7.4.16.1 (BETA) Pro (with OTFE) on Windows 7 6.1 7601 Service Pack 1



Current version is 7.1 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
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Re: Which one?

[Goos]

G>> Do I have to contact them all first to ask that?

> Yes, unless there is another way to obtain their public keys. You'll
> encrypt with their public keys, and then they can decrypt with their
> private keys.

And their encryption tool also has to be Gnu PG? Or doesn't it matter which
one they use?

-- 
Regards,
Gunivortus



Current version is 7.1 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
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Re: Which one?

[Goos]

> First: PGP is not GnuPG. It seems that you installed now GnuPG

Yes, so, they are different encryption tools. Thanks for telling me
that. I thought the basis was all the same, just different companies
who made tools around the same encryption method.

> Second: You can encrypt mail to people where you have their public key
> in your public key ring. So you have to contact them to get the public
> key or you download it from a keyserver - if it is stored there.

Understood.
Then, I have to convince first some to also install GnuPG in their
mailclient - if they are using webmail, thea, in turn, have to ask
that to their admins?

Regards,
Gunivortus



Current version is 7.1 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
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Re: Which one?

[Goos]

> You can start Kleopatra as standalone program which was installed by
> gpg4win. Does this work? So there you can create your key.

Kleopatra does not start at all at any of my Windows 10 computers,
neither called from inside The Bat, not standalone from the desktop.
But the alternative, GPA does work.
GPA was called from inside TB and the two key files were created.

Kind regards,
Gunivortus



Current version is 7.1 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
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Re: Which one?

[Peter Meyns]

Hi Gunivortus,

on  Fri, 7 Apr 2017 10:13:02 +0200GMT (07.04.2017, 10:13 +0200GMT here),
you wrote:

G> ...
G> Can I now encrypt any message or only those to people who also use
G> PGP?

Only the latter.

G> Do I have to contact them all first to ask that?

Yes, unless there is another way to obtain their public keys. You'll
encrypt with their public keys, and then they can decrypt with their
private keys.

-- 
Cheers
Peter

Help Microsoft stamp out piracy - give Linux to a friend today.



Current version is 7.1 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
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Re: Which one?

[Martin]

Hi,

> But fourth..
> I do not understand this really.
> Can I now encrypt any message or only those to people who also use
> PGP?
> Do I have to contact them all first to ask that?

First: PGP is not GnuPG. It seems that you installed now GnuPG
Second: You can encrypt mail to people where you have their public key
in your public key ring. So you have to contact them to get the public
key or you download it from a keyserver - if it is stored there.

--
Regards
 Martin



Current version is 7.1 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
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Re: Which one?

[Martin]

Hi

> Under Preferences I added as the GnuPG External Key Manager the file 
> kleopatra.exe
> which seems to be the managing GUI.
> But that file does not start after calling the OpenPGP Manager in The Bat to 
> create the
> keys.
> So, I do not know how to go on now.

You can start Kleopatra as standalone program which was installed by
gpg4win. Does this work? So there you can create your key.

Then in TheBat you have to add in GnuPG configuration where the key
files are stored.

-- 
Regards
 Martin



Current version is 7.1 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
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Re: Which one?

[Goos]

Guten Tag, Goos,

> So I downloaded and installed GPG4Win 2.3.3.
> Under Preferences I added as the GnuPG External Key Manager the file 
> kleopatra.exe
> which seems to be the managing GUI.
> But that file does not start

Already for many years I failed to implement PGP in my email correspondence.
However, I am a step further now, but still things are not ready yet.

First, the GNU-PG manager needed to be added to the 'allowed' programs'
in the security programs one uses. Except for the AVG-Suite I have the
three tools from WinPatrol. After the PGP-manager was whitelisted in those
tools, it started and I could create my PGP keys.

Second, with the help of the https://www.ritlabs.com/en/support/help/75/#6660
site, I could export the Public Key to a file.

Third
In TB, under Account - Properties - Options I checked the options
Sign when completed
Enable OpenPGP
I hope, the Public key will be added now as a footer to any message in
this account.

But fourth..
I do not understand this really.
Can I now encrypt any message or only those to people who also use
PGP?
Do I have to contact them all first to ask that?

Hoping to get a helpful answer,
regards,
Gunivortus



Current version is 7.1 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
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Re: Which one?

[Goos]

So I downloaded and installed GPG4Win 2.3.3.
After a reboot, I could choose in The Bat under Options - OpenPGP - Choose
OpenPGP the version the GNU Privacy Guard... well, actually, TB  already had
chosen that. :-)
Under Preferences I added as the GnuPG External Key Manager the file 
kleopatra.exe
which seems to be the managing GUI.
But that file does not start after calling the OpenPGP Manager in The Bat to 
create the
keys.
So, I do not know how to go on now.
Did not find a beginner step-by-step guide for this.

-- 
Regards,
Gunivortus



Current version is 7.1 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
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Re: Which one?

[Maxim Masiutin]

Hello Goos,

Use "GNU Privacy Guard (GPG)". Before choosing this option, you need to 
download and install the GNU Privacy Guard for Windows.

-- 
Best regards,
Maxim Masiutin



Current version is 7.1 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
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Re: Which one to use?

[Robin Anson]

On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 at 11:42:01 -0400, Rich wrote:
 AH! Ok then, so that I may possibly better my template (perhaps
 simplifying it to as RA suggests), the next line is:

 Dear %Capital(%TOFNAME=+%if:%ABToHandle:%-
 %if:'%ABToHandle''%ABToFirstName':'%ABToHandle':'%ABToFirstName':%ABToFirstName+)

This says:
If the first name in the TO address (%ToFName) exists
   then
  use it
   otherwise
  if the address book handle is not blank
 then
if the address book handle is different to the address
   book first name,
   then
  use the address book handle
   otherwise
  use the address book first name
 otherwise (if the address book handle is blank)
use the address book first name

-- 
Robin

Using The Bat! v3.99.3
  Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 2
  Popfile v0.22.4




Current version is 3.99 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
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Re: Which one to use?

[Robin Anson]

On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 at 21:27:59 -0400, Rich wrote:
RA On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 at 16:03:38 +, Doug wrote:
 That way, even if the address says Quality Manager, your reply will
 say Dear Dave,
 Dear %ABTOFirstName,
 If you reply to someone who is not in your address book, you will get
 Dear ,

RA Even better is to use
RA Dear %Capital(%ABToFirstName=%ToFName)
RA If the Address book first name is blank, it takes the first name from
RA that address.

 In my (2.12) templates I have:
 Dear %Capital(%TOFNAME=+%if:%ABToHandle:%-
 but do not know what it does!

 I like the sound (explanation) of RA's template, and sometimes I am
 puzzled as to how occasionally the way my emails get addressed seems
 very counter-intuitive! Maybe I'd be better off adopting his.

 Can anyone please explain to me (not remembering where it came from)
 what my present template does?

You don't seem to have quoted the entire part. The next line or
perhaps more are required. What you have there says use the first name
of the address if it exists. If it doesn't, then if the address book
handle is present ... but what to do in that case appears on the next
lines.

Presumably the address book handle contains the person's common name
(i.e. Jim instead of James). Unfortunately that is pretty restricted
because each one address book handle must be unique if it is not
blank.


-- 
Robin

Using The Bat! v3.99.3
  Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 2
  Popfile v0.22.4




Current version is 3.99 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
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Re: Which one to use?

[Doug Higby]

Hello John,

If you are dealing with a limited set of addresses, you can use the
info from your address book instead.  Then you match the address, and
use whatever you have in the Firstname field in your address book.
That way, even if the address says Quality Manager, your reply will
say Dear Dave,

Dear %ABTOFirstName,

If you reply to someone who is not in your address book, you will get
Dear ,
This tells you to close the message, add the person to your address
book, and then click on reply again.  Now that I think of it, I'll bet
I could automate that too...

-- 
 Dougmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
**
TheBat! Voyager 3.99.4
on Windows XP



Current version is 3.99 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
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Re: Which one to use?

[John Phillips]

Doug,

On Mon, 13 Aug 2007, at 16:03:38 [GMT +] (02:03:38 14/08/2007
Australian Eastern Time) you wrote:

 If you are dealing with a limited set of addresses, you can use the
 info from your address book instead.  Then you match the address, and
 use whatever you have in the Firstname field in your address book.


Thanks for the help!

-- 
Regards,
John Phillips
Sydney, Australia

Using Bat! 3.99.3, Windows XP, Service Pack 2
Dell Precision M70 Laptop, 1 meg ram.




Current version is 3.99 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
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Re: Which one to use?

[Robin Anson]

On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 at 16:03:38 +, Doug wrote:
 If you are dealing with a limited set of addresses, you can use the
 info from your address book instead.  Then you match the address, and
 use whatever you have in the Firstname field in your address book.
 That way, even if the address says Quality Manager, your reply will
 say Dear Dave,

 Dear %ABTOFirstName,

 If you reply to someone who is not in your address book, you will get
 Dear ,
 This tells you to close the message, add the person to your address
 book, and then click on reply again.  Now that I think of it, I'll bet
 I could automate that too...

Even better is to use

Dear %Capital(%ABToFirstName=%ToFName)

If the Address book first name is blank, it takes the first name from
that address.

-- 
Robin

Using The Bat! v3.99.3
  Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 2
  Popfile v0.22.4




Current version is 3.99 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
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Re: Which one to use?

[Urban]

Thursday, August 9, 2007, John Phillips wrote:

 Read in the macro help file I see a CAPITALFIRST macro, but if I add
 the parameter =%TONAME I get Hello Sharon smith.

 I really only need the first part of the name;  how to do this?

Use TOFNAME instead of TONAME

-- 
Urban

Franklin discovered electricity by rubbing two cats backwards and
declared, A horse divided against itself cannot stand.. Franklin died
in 1790 and is still dead.






Current version is 3.99 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
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Re: Which one to use?

[John Phillips]

Urban,

On Fri, 10 Aug 2007, at 00:01:38 [GMT +0200] (08:01:38 10/08/2007
Australian Eastern Time) you wrote:

 Use TOFNAME instead of TONAME

Thanks!

-- 
Regards,
John Phillips



Current version is 3.99 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
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