/nonfiction.html).
Mark
—
Ὀλίγοι ἔμφονες πολλῶν ἀφρόνων φοβερώτεροι —
Πλάτωνος
[http://www.macchiato.com]
- Original Message -
From: Marco Cimarosti [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Unicode List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2001 01:15
Subject: RE: Transcriptions of Unicode
Mark Davis
Mon, 15 Jan 2001 13:09:47 -0800 (GMT-0800), G. Adam Stanislav [EMAIL PROTECTED]
pisze:
I would not be surprised if speakers of certain Slavic languages even
changed the SPELLING to Unikod (with an acute over the [o]), as they
have done with other imported words (such as futbal for football).
Fri, 12 Jan 2001 07:28:18 -0800 (GMT-0800), Mark Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED] pisze:
According to the references I have, the prefix "uni" is directly from
Latin while the word "code" is through French. The Indo-European would
have been *oi-no-kau-do ("give one strike"): *kau apparently being
On Monday, January 15, 2001, at 05:08 PM, G. Adam Stanislav wrote:
That's exactly what I said. Unicode as an international standard will
be pronounced internationally: Speakers of each language will have
their own pronunciation, and some will even spell it differently.
Ah, got it. I'm
Mark Davis wrote:
Much as I admire and appreciate the French language (second only to
Italian),
the proximate derivation of "Unicode" was not from that language, and the
transcription should not match the French pronunciation. Instead, it has
solid Northern Californian roots (even though not
Michael Everson wrote:
"The pronuncuation ['juni:ko:d] with [i:] or [i] instead of schwa irritates
me a lot. No one would pronounce "universe" with an [i]."
I beg to differ; "universe" is commonly pronounced with a short [i] in the
English Midlands.
Charles Cox
À 06:16 2001-01-15 -0800, Charles a écrit:
Michael Everson wrote:
The pronuncuation ['juni:ko:d] with [i:] or [i] instead of schwa
irritates
me a lot. No one would pronounce universe with an
[i].
[Charles]
I beg to differ; universe is
commonly pronounced with a short [i] in the
English Midlands.
On Monday, January 15, 2001, at 06:34 AM, Michael Everson wrote:
The pronuncuation ['juni:ko:d] with [i:] or [i] instead of schwa
irritates
me a lot. No one would pronounce "universe" with an [i].
Then forgive me, Michael, for I have sinned. I just sent in to Mark a
Deseret Alphabet
{Notice: way off-topic}
Mark Davis wrote:
There was a period well after the Norman invasion where a
large number of words came into English directly from
Latin, which was still in widespread use among scholars.
Right. And it also was the language of priests, on both sides of the
Channel.
Mark Davis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] wrote:
"Marco Cimarosti" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I wonder what "directly from Latin" may mean in the case of English.
Because
of some timing problems, I would say it means: "through direct knowledge
of
*written* Latin".
There was a period well
At 06:16 AM 1/15/01, Charles wrote:
Michael Everson wrote:
"The pronuncuation ['juni:ko:d] with [i:] or [i] instead of schwa irritates
me a lot. No one would pronounce "universe" with an [i]."
I beg to differ; "universe" is commonly pronounced with a short [i] in the
English Midlands.
And
Just to expand upon this with data:
1. When I learned Latin in the U.S. in the 1960s, we were taught a
reconstructed Roman pronunciation.
Before someone asks him how anyone could know how say a 1st c. ce Roman
pronounced things, reconstruction can be informed by such things as
At 06:16 15-01-2001 -0800, Charles wrote:
Michael Everson wrote:
"The pronuncuation ['juni:ko:d] with [i:] or [i] instead of schwa irritates
me a lot. No one would pronounce "universe" with an [i]."
I beg to differ; "universe" is commonly pronounced with a short [i] in the
English Midlands.
13:27 2001-01-15 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] a crit:
My argument for the world converging on dutch as the
only language that is written as it is spoke. Vic
You really believe that Schiphol is written as pronounced ? (; (:
Alain
1. When I learned Latin in the U.S. in the 1960s, we were taught a
reconstructed Roman pronunciation.
Latin is still spoken in Rome, at the Vatican.
So there is a Roman pronunciation even today... (;
Just kidding... although what I say is true...
Alain
How about a weekly radio
On Monday, January 15, 2001, at 01:09 PM, G. Adam Stanislav wrote:
Besides, the name of an international standard will be pronounced
internationally.
Why? I don't pronounce "Paris" the way the French do. Why should I
expect people from other countries to pronounce "Unicode" the way I
On 01/15/2001 04:25:00 AM Michael Everson wrote:
The pronuncuation ['juni:ko:d] with [i:] or [i] instead of schwa irritates
me a lot. No one would pronounce "universe" with an [i].
Well, note that it was transcribed not with [i:] but with the open
counterpart (IPA symbol 319 rather than 301).
, January 15, 2001 5:27 PM
Subject: Re: Transcriptions of "Unicode"
Wasn't it Dan Quayle who said they speak Latin in Latin America?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
1. When I learned Latin in the U.S. in the 1960s, we were taught a
reconstructed Roman pronunciation.
At 14:11 15-01-2001 -0800, John Jenkins wrote:
On Monday, January 15, 2001, at 01:09 PM, G. Adam Stanislav wrote:
Besides, the name of an international standard will be pronounced
internationally.
Why? I don't pronounce "Paris" the way the French do. Why should I
expect people from
Hallo everybody!
I don't fully agree with Mark Davis' API transcription of "Unicode":
http://my.ispchannel.com/~markdavis//unicode/Unicode_transcription_images/U_
IPA.gif
Because:
1) I think that IPA transcriptions should be in [square brackets], while
phonemic transcriptions should be in
Marco Cimarosti wrote:
I don't fully agree with Mark Davis' API transcription of "Unicode":
http://my.ispchannel.com/~markdavis//unicode/Unicode_transcription_images/U
_IPA.gif
Neither do I, but partly for different reasons.
1) I think that IPA transcriptions should be in [square
nal Message -
From: "Marco Cimarosti" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: "Unicode List" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001
03:11
Subject: Re: Transcriptions of
"Unicode"
Hallo everybody! I don't
fully agree with Mark Davis' API transcription of "Unic
this is supposed to be a list of.
The title says "Transcriptions of Unicode", and a note at the bottom says
"For non-Latin scripts the goal is to match the English pronunciation --
not spelling."
Some of the entries (leftmost column of the table) are names of languages,
while others
Peter Constable wrote:
I'd add the square brackets, an off-glide on the "o", and
aspiration (02b0) after the "k".
Is that k aspirated? I do hear an aspiration when [p], [t] or [k] are at the
*beginning* of "words" (mainly because teachers told me I was supposed to
notice it), but I don't feel
On Fri, 12 Jan 2001, Lukas Pietsch wrote:
Marco Cimarosti wrote:
3) The transcription shows the primary stress on the first syllable, and
a
secondary stress on the last one. In the few occasions when I heard
native
English speakers saying "Unicode", I had the impression that it rather
On 01/12/2001 10:33:48 AM Marco Cimarosti wrote:
Is that k aspirated?
It is for any English speakers I've ever met.
One other point:
Yes? :-)
Oops. It was to be the point about the aspirated k. I forgot to delete
that.
Peter
Kenneth Whistler wrote:
Richard Cook surmised:
BTW, in a very close transcription, if one is using superscription
(position above baseline) and relative size reduction to indicate
aspiration, I suppose that degree of superscription or the size or both
could be modulated to indicate
Thanks for your detailed note; I'll have to think it over.
...
But there's another inconsistency in the transcription: the vowels in the
first ("u-") and third ("-code") syllable are both phonemically long.
Either you put the length mark on both (recommended for *phonetic*
transcription), or
I see 2 Traditional Chinese translations here:
http://www.macchiato.com/unicode/Unicode_transcriptions.html
Which one do people like?
http://my.ispchannel.com/~markdavis//unicode/Unicode_transcription_images/U_Chinese2.gif
On Thursday, January 11, 2001, at 10:25 AM, Richard Cook wrote:
Which one do people like?
http://my.ispchannel.com/~markdavis//unicode/Unicode_transcription_images/
U_Chinese2.gif
Is much better. "Unified Code"
http://my.ispchannel.com/~markdavis//unicode/Unicode_transcription_images/
o: Unicode List
Subject: Re: Transcriptions of "Unicode"
On Thursday, January 11, 2001, at 10:25 AM, Richard Cook wrote:
Which one do people like?
http://my.ispchannel.com/~markdavis//unicode/Unicode_transcription_images/
U_Chinese2.gif
Is much better. "Unified Code&qu
On Thu, 11 Jan 2001, Richard Cook wrote:
I see 2 Traditional Chinese translations here:
http://www.macchiato.com/unicode/Unicode_transcriptions.html
Which one do people like?
http://my.ispchannel.com/~markdavis//unicode/Unicode_transcription_images/U_Chinese2.gif
John Jenkins wrote:
On Thursday, January 11, 2001, at 10:25 AM, Richard Cook wrote:
Which one do people like?
http://my.ispchannel.com/~markdavis//unicode/Unicode_transcription_images/U_Chinese2.gif
Is much better. "Unified Code"
This was my opinion too. I like "tongyima". And so
Jon Babcock wrote:
At first glance, I agreed. But then if the U_Chinese3.gif, gets
shortened to the last three characters, wanguo ma, as I suspect it
would in practice, I'd favor it slightly over the three-character
tongyi ma of U_Chinese2.gif. FWIW. To me, wanguo ma emphasizes the
ember 12, 2000 09:01
Subject: Re: Transcriptions of Unicode
Ar 07:11 -0800 2000-12-12, scríobh Mark Davis:
ARMENIAN
BULGARIAN
CHEROKEE
ETHIOPIC
GREEK
GUJARATI
GURMUKHI
INUKTITUT
OGHAM
RUNIC
RUSSIAN
SINHALA
UCAS
See http://www.egt.ie/standards/iso10646/pdf/junikod.pdf
Michael Everson ** E
t: Thursday, December 14, 2000 11:25
Subject: Re: Transcriptions of Unicode
Here is Hindi:
यूिनकोड
I was convinced that that circle was a mistake, but per my friend the
native
Hindi speaker: "that circle is right, and that's the char that gives the
phonetic minor e"
michka
-
quot;Unicode List"
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2000 8:01 PM
Subject: Re: Transcriptions of Unicode
That matches what I have on
http://www.macchiato.com/unicode/Unicode_transcriptions.html, right?
(circle?)
Mark
- Original Message -
From: "Michael (michka) K
Who needs those mungers? Let's nuke them straight to
HELL. WITH a nuke. Or at least a couple hundred hand
grenades.
| ||\ __/__ | | _/_ | || /
| _|_ ,--, / \ /_| -+- / --- | /
|V T_)| | |\ | ||/ _
\_/ T / \ / __/
Ar 07:11 -0800 2000-12-12, scríobh Mark Davis:
ARMENIAN
BULGARIAN
CHEROKEE
ETHIOPIC
GREEK
GUJARATI
GURMUKHI
INUKTITUT
OGHAM
RUNIC
RUSSIAN
SINHALA
UCAS
See http://www.egt.ie/standards/iso10646/pdf/junikod.pdf
Michael Everson ** Everson Gunn Teoranta ** http://www.egt.ie
15 Port
ber 12, 2000 7:11 AM
Subject: Transcriptions of Unicode
Some people were kind enough to send me extra transcriptions for
http://www.macchiato.com/unicode/Unicode_transcriptions.html
I am still missing confirmation on the Russian and Greek, and (at least
one
language in) the following scripts.
Hmmm... wonder how the UTF-8 encoding got lost? I will try one more
time
Mark, let me know if the e-mail to you retained it.
MichKa
Michael Kaplan
Trigeminal Software, Inc.
http://www.trigeminal.com/
Technology in
Tamil) has been using in its recent discussions.
michka
- Original Message -
From: "Michael (michka) Kaplan" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: "Unicode List" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 9:58 AM
Subject: Re: Transcriptions of Unicode
Hmmm...
At Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:25:59 -0800 (GMT-0800),
Michael (michka) Kaplan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Ok, it happened again. I can send mail to other people and the encoding
stays intact. Just the Unicode List is losing it. Does anyone have any ideas
on this?
I think that's because the list server
Michka wrote:
Ok, it happened again. I can send mail to other people and the
encoding stays intact. Just the Unicode List is losing it.
Does anyone have any ideas on this?
Sarasvati contends that you're probably sending raw 8-bit mail
over an SMTP connection without any indication of the
Darlings,
Shigemichi Yazawa wrote:
I think that's because the list server strip off almost all the mail
header information. The server should retain
MIME-Version:
Content-Type:
On the contrary, Sarasvati is a highly discerning stripper,
and certainly does not remove anything so essential
de List" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 10:45 AM
Subject: Re: Transcriptions of Unicode
Michka wrote:
Ok, it happened again. I can send mail to other people and the
encoding stays intact. Just the Unicode List is losing it.
Does anyone have any ideas on this?
Michael Interesting... strange how other people I send e-mail to do not
Michael have this problem?
It came through this time, even on my stone-age mail reader.
Given a widely used homogeneous system like Windows, I wouldn't be surprised
if the recipients that successfully viewed the
11:52 AM
Subject: Re: Transcriptions of Unicode
Michael Interesting... strange how other people I send e-mail to do
not
Michael have this problem?
It came through this time, even on my stone-age mail reader.
Given a widely used homogeneous system like Windows, I wouldn't be
surprise
At 03:01 PM 12/8/00, John H. Jenkins wrote:
Yes, this is really true. If someone were reading an extended text or an
entire book in Chinese, they might prefer to see the Chinese glyphs, but
isolated words, quotations, and short passages are printed with Japanese ones.
This is not unique to
Mark Davis wrote:
Let's take an example.
- The page is UTF-8.
- It contains a mixture of German, dingbats and Hindi text.
- My locale is de_DE.
From your description, it sounds like Modzilla works as follows:
- The locale maps (I'm guessing) to 8859-1
- 8859 maps to, say Helvetica.
On Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 11:12:24PM -0800, James Kass wrote:
As for Chinese users searching for Chinese
strings, Japanese text will most probably be incomprehensible
regardless of font or mark-up.
That's true for pretty much every other pair of languages that use the
same script, though.
--
isplaying Unicode text (was Re: Transcriptions of "Unicode")
Mark Davis wrote:
Let's take an example.
- The page is UTF-8.
- It contains a mixture of German, dingbats and Hindi text.
- My locale is de_DE.
From your description, it sounds like Modzilla works as follows:
- The local
But NN6 *does* select a font for characters outside the so-called user's
locale when said characters are in a UTF-8 page. It appears that this
mechanism is somewhat haphazard for CJK unified ideographs: I get a mix of
fonts usually (probably because ja is in my locale "stack" currently and
'zh'
Erik van der Poel wrote:
The font selection is indeed somewhat haphazard for CJK when there are
no LANG attributes and the charset doesn't tell us anything either, but
then, what do you expect in that situation anyway? I suppose we could
deduce that the language is Japanese for Hiragana
At 3:57 PM -0800 12/6/00, James Kass wrote:
A Universal Character Set should not require mark-up/tags.
Au contraire, it's been implicit in the design of Unicode from the
beginning that markup/tags would be required in certain situations.
If the Japanese version of a Chinese character looks
James Kass wrote:
Erik van der Poel wrote:
The font selection is indeed somewhat haphazard for CJK when there are
no LANG attributes and the charset doesn't tell us anything either, but
then, what do you expect in that situation anyway? I suppose we could
deduce that the language is
Erik van der Poel wrote:
The font selection is indeed somewhat haphazard for CJK when there are
no LANG attributes and the charset doesn't tell us anything either, but
then, what do you expect in that situation anyway? I suppose we could
deduce that the language is Japanese for
At 6:40 PM -0800 12/6/00, James Kass wrote:
Consider the "teeth" ideograph(s). (Radical number 211, in
some radical lists.) Because this is a radical, CJK encoders
can select the specific desired character:
U+2FD2 for Traditional Chinese
U+2EED for Japanese
U+2EEE for Simplified Chinese
Since
John H. Jenkins wrote:
At 3:57 PM -0800 12/6/00, James Kass wrote:
A Universal Character Set should not require mark-up/tags.
Au contraire, it's been implicit in the design of Unicode from the
beginning that markup/tags would be required in certain situations.
Because of the 65536
that couldn't be deduced from that would be the Yiddish and the Chinese.
Mark
- Original Message -
From: "Erik van der Poel" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: "Unicode List" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: "Unicode List" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2000 22:4
]
To: "Unicode List" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: "Unicode List" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, December 04, 2000 10:40
Subject: Re: Transcriptions of "Unicode"
Hi Mark,
You're right, but I believe what Erik is saying is that you can get
Japanese-looking characters to be *p
Mark Davis wrote:
What wasn't clear from his message
is whether Mozilla picks a reasonable font if the language is not there.
Sorry about the lack of clarity. When there is no LANG attribute in the
element (or in a parent element), Mozilla uses the document's charset as
a fallback. Mozilla
Mark Davis wrote:
What wasn't clear from his message
is whether Mozilla picks a reasonable font if the language is not there.
Sorry about the lack of clarity. When there is no LANG attribute in the
element (or in a parent element), Mozilla uses the document's charset as
a fallback. Mozilla
nicode List" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, December 04, 2000 10:08 PM
Subject: Re: Transcriptions of "Unicode"
Mark Davis wrote:
What wasn't clear from his message
is whether Mozilla picks a reasonable font if the language is not there.
Sorry about the lack of clarit
quot;Unicode List" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2000 22:46
Subject: Re: Transcriptions of "Unicode"
Cool. Now if you also add LANG attributes, Mozilla/Netscape 6 will use
the fonts that have been set up for those languages. E.g.:
span lang="ja" title=&quo
: "Erik van der Poel" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: "Unicode List" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: "Unicode List" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2000 22:46
Subject: Re: Transcriptions of "Unicode"
Cool. Now if you also add LANG attributes, Mozilla/Netscape 6 w
Sad to report, my browser (Netscape 4.7) shows the Yiddish as
Daw-key-nu-ye (It's left to right not rtl...)
I am using the Monotype Andale Duospace font.
tex
Mark Davis wrote:
I am interested in collecting transcriptions of the word "Unicode" in
different scripts (and languages). If you are
Done.
- Original Message -
From: "Michael (michka) Kaplan" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: "Unicode List" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2000 15:19
Subject: Re: Transcriptions of "Unicode"
IE 5.0, 5.5, NN 6.0, and the latest build of Mozilla all do
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