2011/9/13 Jukka K. Korpela jkorp...@cs.tut.fi:
13/09/2011 07:18, Philippe Verdy wrote:
I clearly see ligatures when zooming in,
That’s odd, because when looking at text in Arial, I find it very difficult
to distinguish between the fi combination and the ligature U+FB01 (fi).
There’s one
Not necessarily : Uniscribe can place a caret on an approximative
position in the middle of a ligature, but the situation is different
when performing a selection, because it splits the text in separate
runs (with distinct color attributes, even though they are part of the
same range).
See the
I clearly see ligatures when zooming in, and the ligature disappears
when I select an individual character
Philippe is referring to the same effect you could see on an older
Firefox that, when you'd mark/select Arabic text with your mouse, it'd
re-render the characters as if there were
Certain layout processes, in certain cases, in certain languages,
simply can't be fully automated.
And interestingly, there is a crucial difference between ligatures
and hyphenation in this regard: While a conservative processor could
simply omit hyphenation in ambiguous cases (potentially
Well, it's not that complicated. Ligatures in German must not happen
at compound break points, while they can be applied to ordinary break
points.
Consider the word `Dorfladen' (village shop). Using `=' to indicate a
compound break point and `-' for normal ones, the proper break points
are
Even if Dorfladen is not ambigous, it could be disturbing (and at first
reading be understood as some obscure compound of -fladen.
Once I read a text, it used ligature (inappropriately) in the word Auflage
'obligation', which is compounded from the prefix auf- 'upon' -lage , a
nominal derivative
Consider the word `Dorfladen' (village shop). Using `=' to
indicate a compound break point and `-' for normal ones, the proper
break points are `Dorf=la-den' which means no `fl' ligature. Note
that `Fladen' means `cow dung', so having a ligature there is
really bad.
But Dorfladen is not
Szelp A. Szabolcs:
Even if Dorfladen is not ambigous, it could be disturbing
‹Dorfladen› and ‹Auflage› certainly are disturbing.
For the current German orthography, smart fonts should rather sport ligatures
for double consonants, especially when followed by a third one of their kind in
Am Montag, 12. September 2011 um 15:38 schrieb Christoph Päper:
CP ZWJ or ZWNJ should become easier to input on standard keyboard
CP layouts, not only in the German one.
ZWNJ is present on the new German standard keyboard layout T2,
to be entered as AltGr+., exactly to mark the places where
2011/9/12 Werner LEMBERG w...@gnu.org
Consider the word `Dorfladen' (village shop). Using `=' to
indicate a compound break point and `-' for normal ones, the proper
break points are `Dorf=la-den' which means no `fl' ligature. Note
that `Fladen' means `cow dung', so having a ligature
WL == Werner LEMBERG w...@gnu.org writes:
But Dorfladen is not ambiguous.
WL Yes, but some web browsers like Firefox automatically apply an `fl'
WL ligature...
Only if the font does. (At least in the case of gecko-on-X11.)
Ideally the text should be tagged as DE so that the app can call the
12.9.2011 18:19, Philippe Verdy wrote:
Yes, but some web browsers like Firefox automatically apply an `fl'
ligature...
Well, not just Firefox, because Chrome is now doing the same thing for
this message !
Can you give more details? I just checked that my Chrome (Win 7) is
up-to-date
Philippe Verdy:
And it would be desirable to have a standardized CSS property for controling
this default behavior in browsers.
http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-fonts/#font-variant-ligatures-prop
(In my opinion there would be better ways to spec this, though.)
2011/9/12 Jukka K. Korpela jkorp...@cs.tut.fi
12.9.2011 18:19, Philippe Verdy wrote:
Yes, but some web browsers like Firefox automatically apply an `fl'
ligature...
Well, not just Firefox, because Chrome is now doing the same thing for
this message !
Can you give more details? I
2011/9/12 Christoph Päper christoph.pae...@crissov.de
Philippe Verdy:
And it would be desirable to have a standardized CSS property for
controling this default behavior in browsers.
http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-fonts/#font-variant-ligatures-prop
(In my opinion there would be better ways to
Note: an old bug (signaled by me multiple times 2.5 years ago) is now being
corrected in Chrome since today: the Uniscribe part of the Webkit renderer
has a very critical bug that was finally isolated, it caused the whole
Windows desktop to become almost frozen or impossible to refresh on some
Even if Dorfladen is not ambigous, it could be disturbing (and at
first reading be understood as some obscure compound of -fladen.
Yep - I agree with your perception. But the point was not {that use of
ligatures vs not using them is for disambiguation} but instead {that
only ambiguous
On 9/12/2011 10:46 AM, Philippe Verdy wrote:
common-ligatures
Enables display of common ligatures (OpenType feature: |liga|). For
OpenType fonts, common ligatures are enabled by default.
This means that German documents will really need to use ZWNJ
(fortunately, this character should soon
12/09/2011 20:29, Philippe Verdy wrote:
I see those ligatures applied in Chrome v.13.0.782.220 over Windows 7
SP1 French, just when reading this email in Gmail which renders it with
the stock Arial font of Windows (no webfont used). My locale preferences
in the browser and in my Gmail profile
Of Philippe Verdy
Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2011 10:33 PM
To: Michael Everson
Cc: unicode Unicode Discussion
Subject: Re: ligature usage - WAS: How do we find out what assigned code points
aren't normally used in text?
2011/9/11 Michael Everson ever...@evertype.com:
On 11 Sep 2011, at 00:23
On 9/9/2011 8:12 PM, Stephan Stiller wrote:
Dear Martin,
Thanks for alerting me to the issue of causal direction of aesthetic
preference - it's been on my mind, but your reply helps me sort out
some details.
When I first encountered text (outside of the German language locale)
with ample
An old acquaintance of mine, many years ago, pointed out two cases in
Dutch: a hunter of kiwi birds, kiwijager, cannot use the customary ij
ligature. And as for parsing ambiguities, he observed that there were
three different ways of understanding the word kwartslagen, depending
on whether it
what assigned code
points aren't normally used in text?
2011/9/11 Michael Everson ever...@evertype.com:
On 11 Sep 2011, at 00:23, Richard Wordingham wrote:
A font need not support such ligation, but a glyph for U+FB01 must
ligate the letters - otherwise it's not U+FB01!
Not in monowidth
On Sun, 11 Sep 2011 23:14:04 +0200
Kent Karlsson kent.karlsso...@telia.com wrote:
Den 2011-09-11 18:53, skrev Peter Constable
peter...@microsoft.com:
Hence, in a monospaced font, FB01 certainly should look different
from 0066,
0069, regardless of whether ligature glyphs are used in
Of Richard Wordingham
Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2011 5:19 PM
To: Unicode Discussion
Subject: Re: ligature usage - WAS: How do we find out what assigned code points
aren't normally used in text?
On Sun, 11 Sep 2011 23:14:04 +0200
Kent Karlsson kent.karlsso...@telia.com wrote:
Den 2011-09-11 18:53
From my background I never perceived a need, but I guess I (and most
people??) wouldn't really mind the tradition coming back (in Germany)
if things are designed well (which is the job of the font designer)
and for the user everything is handled automatically in the
background by the
From my background I never perceived a need, but I guess I (and most
people??) wouldn't really mind the tradition coming back (in
Germany) if things are designed well (which is the job of the font
designer) and for the user everything is handled automatically in
the background by the
ligature usage - WAS:
How do we find out what assigned code points aren't
normally used in text?
In most countries, each government has a language unit (each country has
literary society as well). You can find contact address for such unit by
writing to that county's Consulate or Embassy - FYI
10.9.2011 2:14, Kent Karlsson wrote:
But of course, which pairs of
letters (or indeed also punctuation) are likely to occur adjacently
is language dependent.
Indeed, and I used to think (some years ago) that in Finnish, even the
“fi” ligature does not matter much and isn’t used (as “f” only
Den 2011-09-10 20:58, skrev Jukka K. Korpela jkorp...@cs.tut.fi:
There is a deeper language-dependency. According to Oxford Style Manual,
one should not use the fi ligature in Turkish, as that would obscure the
distinction between normal i and dotless i (). This makes perfect sense
to me.
On Sat, 10 Sep 2011 22:19:27 +0200
Kent Karlsson kent.karlsso...@telia.com wrote:
Den 2011-09-10 20:58, skrev Jukka K. Korpela jkorp...@cs.tut.fi:
According to Oxford Style
Manual, one should not use the fi ligature in Turkish, as that
would obscure the distinction between normal i and
Den 2011-09-10 23:06, skrev Richard Wordingham
richard.wording...@ntlworld.com:
On Sat, 10 Sep 2011 22:19:27 +0200
Kent Karlsson kent.karlsso...@telia.com wrote:
Den 2011-09-10 20:58, skrev Jukka K. Korpela jkorp...@cs.tut.fi:
According to Oxford Style
Manual, one should not use the
On Sat, 10 Sep 2011 23:53:34 +0200
Kent Karlsson kent.karlsso...@telia.com wrote:
IMO, a glyph (if any) for that compatibility character should look
*exactly* like an fi (after automatic ligature formation, if that
is done for fi) in the font used. So if no ligature for fi is
formed, the
On 11 Sep 2011, at 00:23, Richard Wordingham wrote:
A font need not support such ligation, but a glyph for U+FB01 must
ligate the letters - otherwise it's not U+FB01!
Not in monowidth, it doesn't.
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Den 2011-09-11 01:23, skrev Richard Wordingham
richard.wording...@ntlworld.com:
On Sat, 10 Sep 2011 23:53:34 +0200
Kent Karlsson kent.karlsso...@telia.com wrote:
IMO, a glyph (if any) for that compatibility character should look
*exactly* like an fi (after automatic ligature formation, if
Pardon my asking, as this is not my specialty:
There are several other ligatures
that *should* be formed (automatically) by run of the mill fonts:
for instance the fj ligature, just to mention one that I find
particularly important (and that does not have a compatibility code
point).
About
I was talking about purely typographic ligatures, in particular
ligatures used because the glyphs (normally spaced) would otherwise
overlap in an unpleasing manner. If the glyphs don't overlap (or
there is extra spacing, which is quite ugly in itself if used in
normal text), no need to use a
Actually, I *was* talking about purely typographic/aesthetic ligatures
as well. I'm aware that which di-/trigraphs need to be considered from a
font design perspective is language-dependent. But the point is that I
observe that:
(a) aesthetic ligatures are not frequently seen in modern German
Den 2011-09-10 02:32, skrev Stephan Stiller sstil...@stanford.edu:
Actually, I *was* talking about purely typographic/aesthetic ligatures as
well. I'm aware that which di-/trigraphs need to be considered from a font
design perspective is language-dependent. But the point is that I
Actually, I *was* talking about purely typographic/aesthetic
ligatures as well. I'm aware that which di-/trigraphs need to be
considered from a font design perspective is language-dependent.
But the point is that I observe that:
(a) aesthetic ligatures are not frequently
On 2011/09/10 9:32, Stephan Stiller wrote:
Actually, I *was* talking about purely typographic/aesthetic ligatures
as well. I'm aware that which di-/trigraphs need to be considered from a
font design perspective is language-dependent.
And this language-dependence is not only a question of
Dear Martin,
Thanks for alerting me to the issue of causal direction of aesthetic
preference - it's been on my mind, but your reply helps me sort out some
details.
When I first encountered text (outside of the German language locale)
with ample use of ligatures in modern printed text, I
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