Re: [Vo]:Could undetected nuclear isomers explain any LENR?
In reply to Mauro Lacy's message of Sun, 06 Nov 2011 12:09:05 -0300: Hi, [snip] Now, assuming that the hypothesis is true, and proceeding in reverse order, we could(I want to clarify that I would NOT do it): - search for the geatest Internal Conversion Coefficients for a given element. - search for ways to increase said empirically determined coefficient. - search for ways to induce nuclear isomer decay. It has been suggested that the means for doing this in the case of the Hafnium isotope is to elevate the metastable nucleus energy to a higher level (via x-ray bombardment), from which new level it rapidly decays. Note however that Rossi has also claimed that other elements seem to work to some extent too, just not as well as Nickel. - search for nuclear isomers of Nickel or other elements. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:Could undetected nuclear isomers explain any LENR?
On 11/06/2011 02:49 AM, pagnu...@htdconnect.com wrote: I am not sure which, if any, nickel isotopes admit isomeric states. Perhaps, electrodes, container walls, or contaminants in nickel (or palladium) could be the source of some yet unidentified isomers. I am quite perplexed that isomeric-65Fe went undetected for so long. Perhaps others have also escaped notice? If they exist at all, getting long-lived nuclear isomers to relax to ground state is probably difficult, if not impossible. But, if it is possible, maybe some LENR experiments have accidentally stumbled upon a way? I find this hypothesis plausible, for a number of reasons. Maybe we can even call it the white elephant in the room hypothesis for (so-called) cold fusion? I'm not a nuclear expert, at all, but as mentioned before a number of times in the list, mostly by Jones Beene, there's a known mechanism, called (Nuclear) Internal Conversion, by which the energy of a nuclear isomer can be emitted (mostly) without gammas, in the form of an expulsed electron from the inner shell. Interestingly, too, there's a coefficient called Internal Conversion Coefficient, *which is empirically determined by the ratio of de-excitations that go by the emission of electrons to those that go by gamma emission*. (wikipedia dixit) Maybe what Rossi found is a two-fold process, which: 1) Induce a given (naturally ocurring, hidden in the mass statistics?) Nickel nuclear isomer to decay. Through the use of nano-powders, the presence of Hydrogen, pressure, and some heat. Probable, at least. 2) Increase the IC coefficient, for the given nuclear isomer, so (almost) no gammas are produced. Through the selection of specific temperature and pressure ranges, by using electromagnetic fields, by using a secret catalyst, etc. etc. That would explain why at turn-off, (with the Rossi mechanism for IC being deactivated) there's a peak of gammas. That would explain too why the term catalyst is geing used. The energy is already there, in the form of naturally ocurring nuclear isomers. Some questions for the list: - How can the explused IC electrons convert to heat? Is this straightforward? As I said, I'm not a nuclear (nor physics, or chemistry) expert. - According to theory, Auger electrons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auger_electron) should sometimes be produced after IC occurs, when the electrons reaccomodate to fill in the blanks in the internal shell. Can these electrons be specifically detected? by example, through its specific energies? This would perhaps provide a signature of the effect for the Rossi device. Can this associated secondary phenomenon be the source of heat? Now, assuming that the hypothesis is true, and proceeding in reverse order, we could(I want to clarify that I would NOT do it): - search for the geatest Internal Conversion Coefficients for a given element. - search for ways to increase said empirically determined coefficient. - search for ways to induce nuclear isomer decay. - search for nuclear isomers of Nickel or other elements. And that's it, folks. Regards, Mauro In reply to pagnu...@htdconnect.com's message of Sat, 5 Nov 2011 23:35:00 -0400 (EDT): Hi, [snip] Probably, Robin, but the relatively recent discovery of the 65Fe isomer (which likely has been lurking in the universe for a long time) makes me wonder if other long-lived isomers have escaped attention, and written off as statistical errors in mass measurements. That was specifically mentioned by Jones Beene before. See I suppose this even probable, but why choose Ni62 specifically? (Note that Fe65 is on the heavy side of the Fe isotopes). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:Could undetected nuclear isomers explain any LENR?
On 11/06/2011 12:09 PM, Mauro Lacy wrote: On 11/06/2011 02:49 AM, pagnu...@htdconnect.com wrote: I am not sure which, if any, nickel isotopes admit isomeric states. Perhaps, electrodes, container walls, or contaminants in nickel (or palladium) could be the source of some yet unidentified isomers. I am quite perplexed that isomeric-65Fe went undetected for so long. Perhaps others have also escaped notice? If they exist at all, getting long-lived nuclear isomers to relax to ground state is probably difficult, if not impossible. But, if it is possible, maybe some LENR experiments have accidentally stumbled upon a way? I find this hypothesis plausible, for a number of reasons. Maybe we can even call it the white elephant in the room hypothesis for (so-called) cold fusion? I'm not a nuclear expert, at all, but as mentioned before a number of times in the list, mostly by Jones Beene, there's a known mechanism, called (Nuclear) Internal Conversion, by which the energy of a nuclear isomer can be emitted (mostly) without gammas, in the form of an expulsed electron from the inner shell. Interestingly, too, there's a coefficient called Internal Conversion Coefficient, *which is empirically determined by the ratio of de-excitations that go by the emission of electrons to those that go by gamma emission*. (wikipedia dixit) Maybe what Rossi found is a two-fold process, which: 1) Induce a given (naturally ocurring, hidden in the mass statistics?) Nickel nuclear isomer to decay. Through the use of nano-powders, the presence of Hydrogen, pressure, and some heat. Probable, at least. 2) Increase the IC coefficient, for the given nuclear isomer, so (almost) no gammas are produced. Through the selection of specific temperature and pressure ranges, by using electromagnetic fields, by using a secret catalyst, etc. etc. That would explain why at turn-off, (with the Rossi mechanism for IC being deactivated) there's a peak of gammas. That would explain too why the term catalyst is geing used. The energy is already there, in the form of naturally ocurring nuclear isomers. Some questions for the list: - How can the explused IC electrons convert to heat? Is this straightforward? As I said, I'm not a nuclear (nor physics, or chemistry) expert. - According to theory, Auger electrons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auger_electron) should sometimes be produced after IC occurs, when the electrons reaccomodate to fill in the blanks in the internal shell. Can these electrons be specifically detected? by example, through its specific energies? This would perhaps provide a signature of the effect for the Rossi device. Can this associated secondary phenomenon be the source of heat? Now, assuming that the hypothesis is true, and proceeding in reverse order, we could(I want to clarify that I would NOT do it): - search for the geatest Internal Conversion Coefficients for a given element. - search for ways to increase said empirically determined coefficient. - search for ways to induce nuclear isomer decay. - search for nuclear isomers of Nickel or other elements. And that's it, folks. Regards, Mauro In reply to pagnu...@htdconnect.com's message of Sat, 5 Nov 2011 23:35:00 -0400 (EDT): Hi, [snip] Probably, Robin, but the relatively recent discovery of the 65Fe isomer (which likely has been lurking in the universe for a long time) makes me wonder if other long-lived isomers have escaped attention, and written off as statistical errors in mass measurements. That was specifically mentioned by Jones Beene before. See I forgot to add the links to the archives (and to run the spell checker, btw). Here are the references: http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg43780.html http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg47741.html Regards.
Re: [Vo]:Could undetected nuclear isomers explain any LENR?
Thanks for your thoughts and suggestions, Mauro. - I will check into Beene's posts on the topic. One last question I wonder about is whether any certain symmetry in an isomeric nucleus insures that a decay to ground state will cause emission of multiple less energetic quanta in order to respect that (perhaps, radial or spherical) symmetry. Regards, Lou Pagnucco On 11/06/2011 02:49 AM, pagnu...@htdconnect.com wrote: I am not sure which, if any, nickel isotopes admit isomeric states. Perhaps, electrodes, container walls, or contaminants in nickel (or palladium) could be the source of some yet unidentified isomers. I am quite perplexed that isomeric-65Fe went undetected for so long. Perhaps others have also escaped notice? If they exist at all, getting long-lived nuclear isomers to relax to ground state is probably difficult, if not impossible. But, if it is possible, maybe some LENR experiments have accidentally stumbled upon a way? I find this hypothesis plausible, for a number of reasons. Maybe we can even call it the white elephant in the room hypothesis for (so-called) cold fusion? I'm not a nuclear expert, at all, but as mentioned before a number of times in the list, mostly by Jones Beene, there's a known mechanism, called (Nuclear) Internal Conversion, by which the energy of a nuclear isomer can be emitted (mostly) without gammas, in the form of an expulsed electron from the inner shell. Interestingly, too, there's a coefficient called Internal Conversion Coefficient, *which is empirically determined by the ratio of de-excitations that go by the emission of electrons to those that go by gamma emission*. (wikipedia dixit) Maybe what Rossi found is a two-fold process, which: 1) Induce a given (naturally ocurring, hidden in the mass statistics?) Nickel nuclear isomer to decay. Through the use of nano-powders, the presence of Hydrogen, pressure, and some heat. Probable, at least. 2) Increase the IC coefficient, for the given nuclear isomer, so (almost) no gammas are produced. Through the selection of specific temperature and pressure ranges, by using electromagnetic fields, by using a secret catalyst, etc. etc. That would explain why at turn-off, (with the Rossi mechanism for IC being deactivated) there's a peak of gammas. That would explain too why the term catalyst is geing used. The energy is already there, in the form of naturally ocurring nuclear isomers. Some questions for the list: - How can the explused IC electrons convert to heat? Is this straightforward? As I said, I'm not a nuclear (nor physics, or chemistry) expert. - According to theory, Auger electrons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auger_electron) should sometimes be produced after IC occurs, when the electrons reaccomodate to fill in the blanks in the internal shell. Can these electrons be specifically detected? by example, through its specific energies? This would perhaps provide a signature of the effect for the Rossi device. Can this associated secondary phenomenon be the source of heat? Now, assuming that the hypothesis is true, and proceeding in reverse order, we could(I want to clarify that I would NOT do it): - search for the geatest Internal Conversion Coefficients for a given element. - search for ways to increase said empirically determined coefficient. - search for ways to induce nuclear isomer decay. - search for nuclear isomers of Nickel or other elements. And that's it, folks. Regards, Mauro In reply to pagnu...@htdconnect.com's message of Sat, 5 Nov 2011 23:35:00 -0400 (EDT): Hi, [snip] Probably, Robin, but the relatively recent discovery of the 65Fe isomer (which likely has been lurking in the universe for a long time) makes me wonder if other long-lived isomers have escaped attention, and written off as statistical errors in mass measurements. That was specifically mentioned by Jones Beene before. See I suppose this even probable, but why choose Ni62 specifically? (Note that Fe65 is on the heavy side of the Fe isotopes). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:Could undetected nuclear isomers explain any LENR?
In reply to Danny Ross Lunsford's message of Fri, 4 Nov 2011 20:33:53 -0700 (PDT): Hi, [snip] This is sort of what seems most natural to me. Something is happening on either side of NI62, and it gets into a cyclic state - once in a while by the magic of QM it overshoots and you get copper, or undershoots and you get iron. But most of the time it bounces back and forth. Some oscillatory state of the nucleus is being excited and it doesn't know which side of the binding-energy-per-nucleon to be on. On either side of Ni62 lie Cu62 and Co62. The energy difference between Cu62 and Ni62 is over 4 MeV. That between Ni62 Co62 is over 5 MeV. IMO there isn't going to be any oscillation to speak of. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:Could undetected nuclear isomers explain any LENR?
Probably, Robin, but the relatively recent discovery of the 65Fe isomer (which likely has been lurking in the universe for a long time) makes me wonder if other long-lived isomers have escaped attention, and written off as statistical errors in mass measurements. Coaxing 1 gram of 65Fe to ground state would release considerable energy. Lots of molecular examples of long-lived metastable systems exist (e.g., ammonia NH3, and other chiral molecules). I am guessing that the decay products would be very hard to calculate - especially in condensed matter. I really think this explanation is quite unlikely, but why leave any stone unturned? In reply to Danny Ross Lunsford's message of Fri, 4 Nov 2011 20:33:53 -0700 (PDT): Hi, [snip] This is sort of what seems most natural to me. Something is happening on either side of NI62, and it gets into a cyclic state - once in a while by the magic of QM it overshoots and you get copper, or undershoots and you get iron. But most of the time it bounces back and forth. Some oscillatory state of the nucleus is being excited and it doesn't know which side of the binding-energy-per-nucleon to be on. On either side of Ni62 lie Cu62 and Co62. The energy difference between Cu62 and Ni62 is over 4 MeV. That between Ni62 Co62 is over 5 MeV. IMO there isn't going to be any oscillation to speak of. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:Could undetected nuclear isomers explain any LENR?
In reply to pagnu...@htdconnect.com's message of Sat, 5 Nov 2011 23:35:00 -0400 (EDT): Hi, [snip] Probably, Robin, but the relatively recent discovery of the 65Fe isomer (which likely has been lurking in the universe for a long time) makes me wonder if other long-lived isomers have escaped attention, and written off as statistical errors in mass measurements. I suppose this even probable, but why choose Ni62 specifically? (Note that Fe65 is on the heavy side of the Fe isotopes). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:Could undetected nuclear isomers explain any LENR?
I am not sure which, if any, nickel isotopes admit isomeric states. Perhaps, electrodes, container walls, or contaminants in nickel (or palladium) could be the source of some yet unidentified isomers. I am quite perplexed that isomeric-65Fe went undetected for so long. Perhaps others have also escaped notice? If they exist at all, getting long-lived nuclear isomers to relax to ground state is probably difficult, if not impossible. But, if it is possible, maybe some LENR experiments have accidentally stumbled upon a way? In reply to pagnu...@htdconnect.com's message of Sat, 5 Nov 2011 23:35:00 -0400 (EDT): Hi, [snip] Probably, Robin, but the relatively recent discovery of the 65Fe isomer (which likely has been lurking in the universe for a long time) makes me wonder if other long-lived isomers have escaped attention, and written off as statistical errors in mass measurements. I suppose this even probable, but why choose Ni62 specifically? (Note that Fe65 is on the heavy side of the Fe isotopes). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
[Vo]:Could undetected nuclear isomers explain any LENR?
Since nuclear isomers (i.e., metastable atoms with excited nuclei) can store energies far exceeding chemical energies, could any LENR results be due to undetected isomers decaying to nuclear ground state? Some are extremely long-lived, and some may still be undiscovered. (e.g., Discovery of a Nuclear Isomer in 65Fe... http://prl.aps.org/abstract/PRL/v100/i13/e132501) Extremely low contamination would suffice. I'm not sure, but I believe that detection would be difficult. Unlikely, but I would welcome opinions. Thanks, Lou Pagnucco
Re: [Vo]:Could undetected nuclear isomers explain any LENR?
This is sort of what seems most natural to me. Something is happening on either side of NI62, and it gets into a cyclic state - once in a while by the magic of QM it overshoots and you get copper, or undershoots and you get iron. But most of the time it bounces back and forth. Some oscillatory state of the nucleus is being excited and it doesn't know which side of the binding-energy-per-nucleon to be on. -- I write a little. I erase a lot. - Chopin --- On Fri, 11/4/11, pagnu...@htdconnect.com pagnu...@htdconnect.com wrote: From: pagnu...@htdconnect.com pagnu...@htdconnect.com Subject: [Vo]:Could undetected nuclear isomers explain any LENR? To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Friday, November 4, 2011, 7:36 PM Since nuclear isomers (i.e., metastable atoms with excited nuclei) can store energies far exceeding chemical energies, could any LENR results be due to undetected isomers decaying to nuclear ground state? Some are extremely long-lived, and some may still be undiscovered. (e.g., Discovery of a Nuclear Isomer in 65Fe... http://prl.aps.org/abstract/PRL/v100/i13/e132501) Extremely low contamination would suffice. I'm not sure, but I believe that detection would be difficult. Unlikely, but I would welcome opinions. Thanks, Lou Pagnucco
