RE: [WSG] CMS question [Now OT]
As it is pretty well off topic (though tempting for me to throw my hat
in but I'd consider that to be taking advantage of the situation), can I
please suggest that all answers be directed to Tim off list.
The way I understood the question, it was a CMS to author HTML marketing
emails within a set template so that desktop rich mail clients like
Outlook were not required to compose the emails, while replacing the
invalid (MS) characters with clean ones (and I assume save the raw code
for sending later). Much like the (few) static files generated by the
WSG site CMS actually.
FWIW (and while UTF is on topic, the rest of this probably isn't), here
is the (ColdFusion) function I use to clean up the majority of the MS
chars thrown at our sites, I'm sure it can be simply adapted for other
platforms, but keep in mind that it might only work if the form is sent
in UTF as the characters may be unrecognised otherwise and may then
simply truncate the data:
cfscript
setencoding(form, UTF-8);
function InputClean(string)
{
returnstring = Trim(string);
returnstring = Replace(returnstring, '-', '-', 'all'); // en dash
returnstring = Replace(returnstring, '-', '-', 'all'); // em dash
returnstring = Replace(returnstring, '.', '...', 'all');
returnstring = Replace(returnstring, '', '', 'all');
returnstring = Replace(returnstring, '', '', 'all');
returnstring = Replace(returnstring, ', ', all);
returnstring = Replace(returnstring, ', ', all);
return returnstring;
}
/cfscript
They could also be replaced directly by entities, but I hate those above
and think that the internet is much better off without curly quotes for
any reason. On output (from the database), the quotes are again replaced
with quot; (along with other entities like ampersands etc.) so that the
user simply edits the text without having to know the entities.
Thanks,
Peter (ListDad)
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RE: [WSG] Scrollbar Colouring...
Hi Chris,
I think the first thing is that it's an annoyance to some
(read: me). Whenever I look at http://virginblue.com.au/ I groan and think
that some little kid had a field day with Frontpage. (Hopefully the author isn't
on the list. Sorry if you are.) Let the system do the chrome elements. This is a
personal opinion only, but I think it looks like an amateur trick and resides in
the same basket as auto-play midi files (those sea-shanties... YUK) and animated
flags.
More
importantly,it doesn't validate. This alone puts it out of ourcode
practice.
http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?uri=http://virginblue.com.au/CSS/virginblue.csswarning=1profile="">
I
recommend against it.
I
wouldn't have written just to say that, so the real message is: Is everyone else
getting everything twice or is it just me? (please answer to [EMAIL PROTECTED])
Regards,
Peter
(Listdad)
From: Chris Stratford
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003
4:29 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [WSG]
Scrollbar Colouring...
I have noticed that the
scrollbar colouring is not a standard piece of CSS material
For example:
Body
{
background-color:
#EE;
scrollbar-base-color:
#808080;
scrollbar-arrow-color:
#808080;
scrollbar-darkshadow-color:
#008000;
scrollbar-face-color:
#808080;
scrollbar-highlight-color:
#FF;
scrollbar-shadow-color:
#FF;
scrollbar-3dlight-color:
#808080;
}
That is claimed to be correct
CSS, and it works in Internet Explorer
but when you use the W3C CSS Validator, it comes up saying that
the scrollbar-base-color etc are not functions. I dont know why its not real
CSS because it seems to work, I am curious if it works in other browsers other
that IE, I cannot test thats why I am posting this here
Sorry again this is my
2nd email I apologise if its majorly newbified
Just wondering what the others
think
I am currently remodelling my
website, and as such I am going to make sure it adheres to HTML 4.01 and CSS
standards.
So I need some advice, whether I
should use the scroll-bar colouring technique or not.
Thanks people!
Chris
Stratford [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.neester.com
RE: [WSG] Re: px em pt ???
Hi Taco, I guess in the end it all becomes a case of - is the client willing to pay for your extra time required to apply all these hacks. First thing to note is that it is soo much quicker to develop a site this way once you get the basics right. Once you have the basics, you start the next new site with a template based on these basics and you can churn out sites in half the time you used to. Secondly, these (relative fonts) are definitely NOT hacks. Using a table to lay out non-tabular content is a hack. Exploiting a bug in a browser (like the voice family hack mentioned a few days ago) is a hack (and this one should be considered dangerous.. At least fully explore the pros and cons before using it). Having worked for several government bodies I am afraid to say I have NEVER worked with %, simply because it looked like a paint to work with. And the only downfall I see in using pixels is due to the fact IE (some versions) can't scale it. (the only sites I developed for the gorvernment were Intranet, so don't come down to hard on me ;-) A behaviour in IE is the most important one to worry about as it has a 93% market share (like it or not, and I'm not saying it's better than any other browser, it's just reality). I suggest you look at the user_agents hitting your site(s) at some stage. If you don't have access to analyse your log files, then a generic breakdown is a good second bet. See lists like: http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2003/November/browser.php Also FWIW (a good generic audience) take a look at the AM Online stats breakdown of browsers and platforms for November 2003 http://www.amonline.net.au/website/reports/amonline/0311/index_08_b.htm Regards, Peter * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] [OT everso slightly] Gramophone web site
Hi Jonathon, It has dynamic menus that you're not getting in Safari. A good illustration of not testing (or caring about) cross platform compatibility. This is also a good time to point out that if you use these types of dynamic menus, you must point the initial link to a meaningful address (a page that contains all the links that the menu would provide if it worked) so that anyone that doesn't get the menu still has an option. P -Original Message- From: Jonathan Baldwin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 9:40 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] [OT everso slightly] Gramophone web site I just visited the web site of Gramophone magazine, looking for a CD review. I'm using Safari - the buttons on the site don't work, they're all just # links. I've looked in the source code and am wondering why they don't work before I email them and let them know. Any guesses it might be a case of this site does not support Macs? Whatever the problem my bleary eyes just aren't seeing it. I'm interested to know the reason it's broken (if it is) so I can use it as an example of what to avoid with students at some point. http://www.gramophone.co.uk Jonathan * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] OT: Opening documents in _blank window
If you force a user to save the file locally instead of opening it in the manner in which their browser is set up to handle it you're taking away their control of default behaviours. I really recommend against this. Let the browser handle it. If they have only the Acrobat Reader,a PDF will(generally) open within the browser. If they want to set it up differently to open in Acrobat itself, they can change their setup. I have all these types of things set as I want them. I want to open Word and Excel files within the browser. If you force me to save it you're taking my preference away and I get really cranky. Then I have to remember where I saved it and clean it up later, rather than it being a temporary internet file that is purged automatically. Whenever a client asks me to force people to save things I talk them out of it. Just my thoughts. P From: Taco Fleur [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 12:12 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [WSG] OT: Opening documents in _blank window Any more info on this? Doesn't it work the same as sending proper headers? -Original Message-From: James Ellis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, 12 December 2003 11:04 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [WSG] OT: Opening documents in _blank windowIf you are using Apache you could force a download for these file types instead of opening the file. When the user clicks on the link the download box will pop up.This'd be my preference...CheersJamesMiles Tillinger wrote: I don't suppose we're actually 'serving' the PDF or DOC as such, in that we only link to the file. As we have no control over the header of the file, the user's OS will handle it however it is configured to. Herein lies the problem... -Original Message- From: Bradley Wright [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 9:06 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] OT: Opening documents in _blank window Miles, Generally when serving PDF type document at my place of work, we serve them using a custom HTTP header: header( "content-disposition: inline" ); (that's the PHP way to do it). This works for us because we serve most of our documents as BLOBs from the database. If you're not doing that, I'm not sure my help will be any... help. Be careful with this one, it seems to work pretty well in IE, but other browsers ignore it. Then again, other browsers generally behave better with attachments/mime-types in general. Miles Tillinger wrote: Just a question about how other developers handle opening documents e.g. PDF, DOC, in a new window. At the moment I am using _blank targets. Scenario 1: User is using IE with Word configured to open inside the IE window. When the user clicks on a link to the Word doc a new IE window opens and the doc is loaded in that window. Scenario 2: User is using IE or another browser, but is configured to open Word doc's in Word, not in the Browser window. When the user clicks on a link to the Word doc a new Browser window open and the user either prompted to Save or Open the doc, or may even open the doc in Word automatically if the user has previously selected that option. The problem here is that the user is left with a blank Browser window. So Scenario 1 is how I'd like it to behave in every case, but is this possible? Since I have no way of knowing how the user has their system configured I don't know whether to offer the link with a _blank target or not? Is there an accessible standard way of doing it? Regards, Miles * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] Fixed Width Design
We must remember the origin of the Home Page. This was the page that your old Unix shell account browser saved their bookmarks to (the two I used to use were lynx and I believe the other was simply www). This page was (by default) the index document in your account directory (whatever.com/users/~username/). That's why it was a home page, it was where your brower started (by default). Then people started linking to each others home pages and the word became synonymous with the top page in a website. P -Original Message- From: Jonathan Baldwin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 12:55 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Fixed Width Design You and me both. My .mac homepage address has no www - but people automatically ask if I've missed it off when I tell them it. I suppose if the web were more forgiving then it wouldn't matter if you typed www or not. Like getting the post code wrong or missing it off - takes a little longer to get there but it does. But it's an irrelevance - time we moved away from it I think as a hangup from the old days when people who used the web used all sorts of protocols in their work (ftp being the only one I can think of that I still use, but rarely in my browser). It does seem (anecdotally) that people who have trouble with URLs stumble at www. Pipe dreams... don't you love them? On 12 Dec 2003, at 00:56, Miles Tillinger wrote: If I had a dollar for everytime that I had given some a www-less URL verbally and they've just entered www. blah out of habit, I'd be a millionaire! * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] Site Issues
Title: FW: [WSG] Site Issues Bouncesare only sent to the sender of a post (and us), not the list. Please do not send errors back to the list as they are then permanently archived into the public archive at mail-archive.com (we can't delete posts from this archive). Please post list issues directly to [EMAIL PROTECTED]only. If an address bounces continually for more than 48 hours and it seems to be a permanent error, we'll delete them from the list. You'd be surprised how many regular posters also bounce messages for short periods of time. P From: Taco Fleur [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 8:49 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: FW: [WSG] Site Issues Is anyone else getting these undeliverable messages? I am getting them at home and at work, I notified the admin's about it but have not heard anything, just wondering if it's just me?
RE: [WSG] What have I missed here?
Hi Michael, First problem is that the page isn't valid. http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://auslegs.com.au/about/index.cfm Second, the CSS isn't valid. http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?uri=http://auslegs.com.au/style s/auslegs.csswarning=1profile=css2usermedium=all I suggest sorting those issues out first as this will eliminate some of the problems and make troubleshooting easier for others. A doctype is very important as it affects how browsers render the page. Regards, Peter -Original Message- From: Michael Kear [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2003 4:36 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] What have I missed here? I tried using the classic CSS menu from the Uberlink CSS Rollovers: Overview article I picked up on this list. I managed to copy the code and style sheet from that tutorial, and now I want to see how it will work on a site I'm working on. It's a two-level menu setup though, so I want to have the minor level have different style. I've managed to get two levels in the menu ok, but for some reason the first item in the sub-level has all the characteristics of the top level. Can anyone see what I've got wrong in the code? The page is at http://auslegs.com.au/about/index.cfm And the style sheet concerned is at http://auslegs.com.au/styles/auslegs.css The first sub-menu item should be classic turned timber lounge legs - the first item under the Products category. The structure of the menu on the page is: ul liTop level item/li liTop level item/li liTop level item ul liSecond level item/li liSecond level item/li liSecond level item/li /ul /li liTop level item/li ul Is anything wrong with this structure? It works fine on another site I have. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com p.s. I know it looks horrible right now. I want to get this to work then I'll do some pretty graphics for the menus to suit the site. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] What have I missed here?
Hi Michael,
When you output the data from the database, do a replacement on with amp;
so that it doesn't have to be changed in the database.
Not wanting to go too far off topic (it's to do with valid output so I think
it's ok) the way I do this in CF is the following in application.cfm:
cfscript
function OutputFormat(string)
// cleans the output from the database to the page
{
returnstring = Trim(string);
returnstring = Replace(returnstring, '', 'amp;', 'all');
return returnstring;
}
request.OutputFormat = OutputFormat;
/cfscript
Then on the page itself:
#request.OutputFormat(database_field_content)#
P
-Original Message-
From: Michael Kear [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2003 10:08 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [WSG] What have I missed here?
Thanks Ryan, But I'm working on that page at the moment, and
there's no
telling what you'll see if you look at it now.
I'm not sure about the ampersand. It's a dynamic field
coming form the
client's inventory database and I don't think I'll be asking
him to change
his inventory and invoicing system just so it can please a
web validator.
Maybe I'll just make do with a lesser standard rather than
have him change 4
or 5 of his internal systems. I'll have to think about that.
But thanks a lot for going to the trouble to help. I'll have a go at
tidying up the page and see where I stand after that.
Cheers
Mike Kear
-Original Message-
From: Ryan Christie [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, 21 December 2003 9:29 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] What have I missed here?
I'm taking a glance at your page errors and will give you a
few points
to help you get stuff sorted out./
Line 48
http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://auslegs.com.au/about
/index.cfm#lin
e-48,
column 112/: there is no attribute height (explain...
http://validator.w3.org/docs/errors.html#attr-undef)
|...llspacing=0 cellpadding=0 height=18|
table's height are defined by the total height of it's
columns. columns
have a height property, tables do not.
/Line 92
http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://auslegs.com.au/about
/index.cfm#lin
e-92,
column 154/: character is the first character of a delimiter but
occurred as data ...=MCTimber / Metal Combination Legs Metal
Legs/a/li
|
Anywhere you want an ampersand to display on a page, it has
to be entered
using its
unicode encoding which is amp;
|/Line 150
http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://auslegs.com.au/about
/index.cfm#lin
e-150, column 82/: required attribute alt not specified
(explain...
http://validator.w3.org/docs/errors.html#attr-missing).
|com.au/images/SmallFooterSymbol.jpg/p|
All images have to have an alt attribute in xhtml. It's pretty easy to
forget to include
alt's if you're not always thinking about it. i do it all the time :)
/Line 150
http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://auslegs.com.au/about
/index.cfm#lin
e-150, column 86/: end tag for img omitted, but OMITTAG
NO was specified
|au/images/SmallFooterSymbol.jpg/p
you didn't close the img tag properly. In XHTML, img tags
have to be written
up as
img src=url alt=alt text / .. if you add a space and
slash to the end
of your
img tags, these errors will go away. same goes for the hr
tag you used;
needs to be hr /
|/Line 152
http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://auslegs.com.au/about
/index.cfm#lin
e-152, column 26/: reference not terminated by REFC delimiter
|p align=centercopy 2003 Auslegs, Pitt Town, NSW, Australia/p
that's just a run-on mumbo jumbo for you forgot to put a
semicolon after
the copy
|//||
HTH bud
-Ryan
http://www.theward.net
Michael Kear wrote:
A are you saying just cos there's 56 teensy weensy
little errors that
makes a difference
Gulp! Yeah. Well by the time I've fixed all those I might
just have fixed
whatever the problem is.
Thanks Peter.
Cheers
Mike Kear
-Original Message-
From: Peter Firminger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, 21 December 2003 1:08 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [WSG] What have I missed here?
Hi Michael,
First problem is that the page isn't valid.
http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://auslegs.com.au/about
/index.cfm
Second, the CSS isn't valid.
http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?uri=http://ausle
gs.com.au/styl
e
s/auslegs.csswarning=1profile=css2usermedium=all
I suggest sorting those issues out first as this will
eliminate some of the
problems and make troubleshooting easier for others. A
doctype is very
important as it affects how browsers render the page.
Regards,
Peter
-Original Message-
From: Michael Kear [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2003 4:36 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WSG] What have I missed here?
I tried using the classic CSS menu from
RE: [WSG] Need Assistance...
Hi Adam,
To send the header, I believe it is cfcontent type=application/xhtml+xml
I use cfcontent type=text/xml for XML and RDF AGLS harvest control lists
and metadata. e.g.: http://gtconnect.webboy.net/meta/index.cfm (HCL) and
http://gtconnect.webboy.net/meta/metadata.cfm (metadata for other documents
that can't hold embedded AGLS data).
Not sure about parsing the request for the accept string, but seriously, why
would you bother if you are marking up content for presentation and nothing
else?
I really really really don't think it's good advice to suggest that Chris
changes to XHTML without reason (sorry lucky Rob) so I'm glad he decided not
to.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with using valid HTML 4.01 (or even
earlier versions like 3.2) for presentation. XHTML only comes in to play if
you are presenting structured data with a reason to use mark-up for purposes
other than presentation. You cause far more problems going to XHTML than you
fix, especially 1.0 strict or 1.1 and even more so if you are building a CMS
to run it.
Having said that, if you're willing to do the extra work to go to XHTML on a
site that doesn't really need it (like we did with the WSG site for example)
and you're confident that your clients won't have any chance of screwing it
up, then go ahead. I'm not saying XHTML is bad, but there are no compelling
reasons around to make it worth the trouble of changing the mime type etc.
if you don't use the xml component for the data related reasons.
We did quite a few XHTML sites before realising this. Others (and big names
too) have come to the same conclusions.
We will be re-working the webboy/maxdesign/purpleprodigy site back into HTML
4.01 shortly and I'm thinking about doing the same with WSG as it is
technically incorrect at the moment (though I think the whole issue is
bollocks) sending it as text/html and I'm not willing to change it while the
major browser doesn't like it.
There has been much discussion on this list and in other places about this.
Might be a good idea to log in and do a search on the WSG archive.
P
-Original Message-
From: Adam Carmichael [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2004 11:19 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] Need Assistance...
Rob Halff wrote:
!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.1//EN
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/DTD/xhtml11.dtd;
html xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml; xml:lang=en
head
meta http-equiv=Content-type content=text/html;
charset=iso-8859-1 /
And since your using PHP, add this to your template, or what
have you,
to make sure that the webserver sends the appropriate Content-Type if
the UA can read XHTML.
?php
if(stristr($_SERVER['HTTP_ACCEPT'],application/xhtml+xml))
{
header('Content-Type: application/xhtml+xml');
}
?
(Just as a tidbit, MSIE appears to be able to parse XHTML
just fine, but
when you throw the correct Content-Type at it, MSIE thinks it
can't read
it, so it'll ask the user to select an application which can
read it -
thankfully MSIE does not add application/xhtml+xml to it's accept
string, so you won't get this problem.)
Out of curiosity, what does the CF source look like to do the
same thing?
Adam
--
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Admin |
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[WSG] XHTML Repost
It may be a good time to repost this from Russ on 5th July 2003: repost Peter and I have been (endlessly) discussing the pro's and cons of XHTML over HTML4.01. We made the move from HTML4.01 transitional to XHTML 1.0 transitional mid last year, and while the transition was quick, we have been aware of two major issues with XHTML that make it not-so-good choice. WORRIES ABOUT XHTML 1. Some people say that if you are using XHTML you should be serving application/xml as a mime type rather than text/html. Here are some articles on the subject: http://www.hixie.ch/advocacy/xhtml http://www.goer.org/Journal/2003/Apr/index.html#20 http://www.goer.org/Journal/2003/Apr/index.html#29 http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/~distler/blog/archives/000150.html 2. The verity search engine (shipped with ColdFusion and used extensively by us) seems to have trouble correctly indexing XHTML documents, and requires filters to be applied to the results to remove characters that have been escaped by the preceding / (this is likely to be a mime type issue). ON THE OTHER HAND There have been many people putting forward reasons for making the switch to XHTML such as Zeldman and Tantek: http://tantek.com/log/2003/01.html#L20030114t1345 QUESTION So, the question is, (keeping in mind the mime type issue especially) can anyone provide me with a good solid reason (no warm and fuzzy ones) why XHTML 1.0 is better than HTML 4.01? Thanks Russ /repost Peter I don't believe you have to do anything in ColdFusion for XHTML. You just put the appropriate Doctype at the top of the page, just as you would with a static page. CF will output XHTML out of the box with no modifications or special handling at all. You just tell it what you want, as you do with html. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] XHTML Repost
Hi Nick, Ah ok... so the type must be sent in the headers before the page is even generated (i.e. by the web server). So how would the presence of meta http-equiv=Content-Type content=text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 / or the xml prolog affect the process afterwards? Presumably by then they are too late to matter? I believe this is the case. In fact I think this may even cause a warning on the validator (though I haven't tested this). I know that ColdFusion 6.1 Server sends the charset utf-8 in the header by default and if you simply put meta http-equiv=Content-Type content=text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 on the page the W3 validator shows a charset conflict. In this case you need to tell ColdFusion to send the correct (non-default) charset in the header as well. E.g. cfcontent type=text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1. (Consult your server documentation. This is an example only, relating to a W3C validator behaviour, yet bordering on being off topic.) I'm not trying to talk anyone out of using XHTML, I just want them to know the whole story and that there are more issues than it seems on the surface (and this is a very appropriate place for the discussion). My final words on the topic as it seems to irritate people: XHTML is not a new version of HTML. It's an entirely different beast with different appropriate uses and requirements. Otherwise it would be called HTML 5.0. If you are just doing presentational mark-up, then HTML is the more appropriate language to use and the current version is 4.01. XHTML 1.0 Transitional will also cope with this (sent as text/html) as it has been left open enough to be a transition between the languages, but there is no real advantage in using it for presentational mark-up alone. Anything more strict (1.0 Strict, 1.1 or 2.0) needs a lot more work for valid implementation and (at the moment) some minor hacking or code forking to get around browser mime type requirements correctly. P * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] Small bug
Title: Small bug Hi Peter, Much obliged y'all. Hey, and work in progress exhibited on this list is confidential, right? Members of the list would adhere to this I'm sure, but remember that the list is publicly archived at http://www.mail-archive.com/wsg%40webstandardsgroup.org/so it does go to the public if they happen to look there. If anything is extremely confidential then maybe making a non-client related page with the same problem is a good idea. P
RE: [WSG] A few links...
We are thinking about this, the problem is that many people have sigs with their url in them and other people post links to sites with their questions. If we automate the link stripping, we'll get those too. I suggest (actually Russ did) we make sure we post the links in the resources area so that they are a permanent categorised record, rather than to the list, and I'll write a routine to grab all the posted resource links from the past week and send them to the list on Sunday (or is Friday a better day?) to save having to look there all the time. Sound OK? P -Original Message- From: Justin French [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 11:16 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] A few links... On Thursday, January 8, 2004, at 09:15 AM, Anton Andreasson wrote: Is there any way some skillful coder here could hack up a script to parse the list emails, strip out all links, present them in a recent links sent to wsg-list kind of list, with some buttons like add me to wsg resource archive (if the user finds it valuable)? If someone had a bunch of text files as an archive they could send to me as a zip, the process of looking for (and grabbing) anything with a http:// would be pretty easy... I'd happily do it,a nd could probably automate 90% of the process to occur monthly or whatever. Justin * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] Russ' point from last night's meeting
In some Government organisations, Netscape 4 is still used as the default browser generally to the use of the Netscape email client and because they paid a site licence for corporate use (which is why Netscape had to bring out an update to 4.7? last year). If one of these organisations is your client, then there is a very good reason to tweak for it. Of course you urge them to change the policy, but sysadmins (especially government ones) are not always fast on technology change. P -Original Message- From: Vaska.WSG [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2004 1:05 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Russ' point from last night's meeting Do people really code/tweak for NS4? My netscape traffic generally ranges less than 3% and I can only imagine that a very small chunk of that is actually NS4. Am I missing something? v On 16 Jan 2004, at 11:10, James Ellis wrote: Hi all For those who didn't make it, Russ in his presentation made a really good point about cross browser implementation Basically we can tweak to 6.7 different browsers but are the people who view our sites going to do the same? Provided the content is structured to be readable for our IE5 and NS4 viewers (for instance) out there, they might just say hey that looks all right They may even label something normal that we call broken. It certainly is a good point to remember when we get stuck in the CSS tweak-to-death mindset. Cheers James * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
[WSG] CMS Discussion
Hi folks, The [WSG] New CMS / Framework is now getting off-topic. I was willing for it to go on as it had a good chance of turning back to being about Web Standards. E.g. methodologies for making sure that user entered content (be it plain text or widget written HTML) is filtered appropriately to be valid (even when pasted from Word), the use of CSS for layout in the templates, support for less popular browsers, Web Services and syndication mechanisms etc. Please focus on these and similar issues rather than getting caught up in the product, whether for or against. CF-Aussie may be a better place for the FarCry discussion (the FarCry lists seem to be more support based than discussion). Do we have enough interest to start a separate CMS list? It's not the first time we have had CMS discussions here and they generally waver off topic for this list. If you would be interested in a separate list just on Content Management (and yes this includes Dreamweaver as it is a valid tool to manage content), please let us know at [EMAIL PROTECTED] and if we get more than 10 interested participants, I'll set it up. Regards, Peter (ListDad) * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
[WSG] Mail problem this morning and CMS list
Yeah, sorry folks, had a server issue this morning so if you think a message didn't get through, please check the archive and send it again if it isn't there. http://webstandardsgroup.org/manage/archive.cfm I have 5 people for the CMS list and I assume that some replies to this request may have gone astray as well. So rather than bother with it any further, it's done. If you want to be on the CMS mailing list please send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with Subscribe cms (no quotes) in the BODY of the message. Regards, Peter Sent this message before 10am today, and it seems to have disappeared. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] What to do? [Now OT]
Yes it's interesting but not a web standards discussion. Please reply to this thread off list. Peter * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] Last error on Validator
Title: Message Absolutely, one of the big ones in designing a CMS (or blog)or making sure a static site is standards compliant (see http://www.webboy.net/presentation/validation.cfm) Also all " in the text should really be quot; (and no I really don't see the need for the curly varieties, text is text and #8220; and #8221; are really not required). It's really not that difficult on a (server side) dynamic system. Wherever you dynamically add a query string, use the amp; entity. Just get into the habit of doing it that way. P http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fdevelopment.tacofleur.com%2Findex%2Fmethodology%2F Is this something I should really go and change? Its just feels weird to go and change the to amp; in the url values.
RE: [WSG] Could someone please do a little testing for me?
Netscape isn't tied to the OS like IE is on Windows, so it isn't an issue. You can load any number of other browsers, but without the aforementioned installations, you are generally stuck with one version of IE unless you set up a dual-boot system. P From: Universal Head [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 4:02 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [WSG] Could someone please do a little testing for me? What about Netscape?On 05/02/2004, at 3:09 PM, Mark Stanton wrote: Here's a screeny of IE5 on windows. My cursor is over the work "removal".There's a pretty easy way to get different versions of IE running side byside - check some of these links:http://www.insert-title.com/web_design/?page=articles/dev/multi_IEhttp://www.clagnut.com/blog/259/http://www.google.com.au/search?q=IE+side+by+sideUniversal HeadDesign That Works.7/43 Bridge Rd StanmoreNSW 2048 AustraliaT (+612) 9517 1466F (+612) 9565 4747E [EMAIL PROTECTED]W www.universalhead.com
[WSG] RE: Opening pages in new windows... [We're done here]
We can probably shut this one down now folks. It's gotten way OT. Browser set-up preferences isn't really on-topic at all. New windows are a personal/professional preference rather than a standards topic (though the conversation did start on-topic when related to target in XHTML and the handy JS workaround (as it degrades nicely)). Interesting, but how many times can we say it. A bit of protocol. Might be best to start a new thread (and paste in any quotes) rather than changing the subject if changing the topic completely. Makes it easier for people that view the list via threads on mail-archive.com. Much of the recent discussion under the heading Opening pages in new windows... has been off this topic. As you can see on http://www.mail-archive.com/wsg%40webstandardsgroup.org/ changing the subject on a reply doesn't change the parent thread. (Note: at the moment it seems to have stalled on 6-Feb.. I'm hoping it'll catch up at some stage). ListDad -Original Message- From: Chris Stratford [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 11:16 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Opening pages in new windows... was Re: [WSG] XHTML (OT??) Hey James, I have small icons set - its just I have the QUICK LAUNCH toolbar there too, things get a little cluttered... Well now that I look at it, the size difference isn't that bad. I do like firebird a lot more, just crazybrowser seems less of a processor hog (firebird lags a little, and seems very bulky, where as IE seems to float around the environment, I don't know if that makes sense... FB is like a tank on my Laptop - where IE is like a butterfly... lol... I can resize IE windows, and move them around a lot... FB is slow with all that... I cant really explain it - its hard to express - there is something about FB. - Chris Stratford [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.neester.com - -Original Message- From: James Ellis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 10:55 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Opening pages in new windows... was Re: [WSG] XHTML (OT??) Hi Chris Try doing a right click on the taskbar, choose customize... and check small icons. HTH James Chris Stratford wrote: I do use them both... I have both open now, and always. Just that CrazyBrowser seems a lot faster loading etc... and its got a nice small interface, where Firebirds tabs are huge which reduce screen size... I am only running this at 1400x1050 resolution, so height is important, and firebird has a huge menu and a lot of crap... then the task bar - about 1/7th the screen is gone, where as in CB its only about 1/10th is taken up... Maybe someone here feels the same way about firebird? (on both I have the address bar and Links bar visible (they have all my links I need in them) - Chris Stratford [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.neester.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] code for a form
Hi Peter, That really should happen on the server using whatever programming language you're equipped with (ColdFusion, PHP, Perl, ASP etc.) It is possible to do it from the client using JavaScript or simply submitting the form to an email address but it's really dodgy and I strongly recommend against even thinking about it. It'll also depend on the mail server and the permissions your web server has to send email, quite a complex discussion. If you host with an ISP, ask them what they have in place for form processing on the server. It'll probably be something like posting the form to /cgi-bin/formmail.pl with the required fields in the form. And yes (I hate this part of the job), it's pretty well off-topic. P -Original Message- From: Universal Head [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 6:02 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] code for a form I don't know if this is on-topic or not, but can anyone direct me to a simple way of creating a form that has a few fields that then go into an email that is sent off to a recipient? ... Or should I just admit there's only so far I can go as a designer and find a programmer to do this bit? Cheers Peter * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] Tenth AIMIA Awards announced
Stick with it David. Our time will come. The benefits of going through the (hard) process of getting your standards codebank together far outweigh the pain. Once you have it, you start with a base codeset and then, creating a new site is a much easier process. Whether you pass the savings on to your clients or take the profit is your decision. Our Rapid Development (and therefore lower budget) model for business works for us. That's why we use CFMX and CSS so much. Hey, even M$ have seen the light with their (delightfully flawed) campaign announcing their attempt to clean up their FP code. Unfortunately, they started at the wrong end. They should sort out their Office line and it's disgusting HTML output first so that at least a cut and paste into other editors doesn't come with a truckload of rubbish. Apart from that, they're barking up the wrong tree. Anyone with any interest in valid code is not going to even think of FrontPage as a solution, and anyone else doesn't care (yet). Regards, P I don't have any solutions at present. In fact a few events (relating to web standards) in the last few weeks at my current contract and online have made me feel that we really are fighting an uphill battle. Maybe we have to be more vocal about standards, or make our message disseminate further and wider - but at the moment I'm not sure how to do this, or even if designers/developers such as those who won AIMIA awards would even listen * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] Problem Validating CSS
Hi Chris, You need to escape any with amp;(even in URL query strings). Links to the relevant files/validator results would help so we could see the code. P From: Chris Stratford [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 1:01 PMTo: Web Standards GroupSubject: [WSG] Problem Validating CSS I have an interesting problem here...i try and validate the CSS of my XHTML website...and the CSS page says i must validate my XHTML first...The problem is that the XHTML is actually 100% Valid.It has a problem with the '' symbol??What is causing this problem?I mean - why doesn't the CSS Validate, but the XHTML does...Thanks for any help!-- Chris Stratford [EMAIL PROTECTED] Http://www.neester.com* The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] Problem Validating CSS
The other suggestion is to validate the CSS file(s) separately at http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator-uri.htmlrather than parsing the xhtml for the linked files. P I have an interesting problem here...i try and validate the CSS of my XHTML website...and the CSS page says i must validate my XHTML first...The problem is that the XHTML is actually 100% Valid.It has a problem with the '' symbol??What is causing this problem?I mean - why doesn't the CSS Validate, but the XHTML does...Thanks for any help! -- Chris Stratford [EMAIL PROTECTED] Http://www.neester.com
RE: [WSG] Problem Validating CSS
It's good practice to do it for (amp;) and (quot;) in the text all the
time (HTML or XHTML).
Also be aware of em-dashes, en-dashes, epsilons (...) and the curly
varieties of and ' (which I hate and always strip back to the plain text
version).
If it's your own blog software, make sure to replace them as you output the
formatted text. I'm sure there's a PHP function (?) that does this
conversion on a string for you.
Not wanting to go OT here but in CF I generally run this function over all
inputs to a content database:
function InputClean(string)
{
returnstring = Trim(string);
returnstring = Replace(returnstring, '-', '-', 'all');
returnstring = Replace(returnstring, '-', '-', 'all');
returnstring = Replace(returnstring, '.', '...', 'all');
returnstring = Replace(returnstring, '', '', 'all');
returnstring = Replace(returnstring, '', '', 'all');
returnstring = Replace(returnstring, ', ', all);
returnstring = Replace(returnstring, ', ', all);
return returnstring;
}
And this one on output to the page
function OutputFormat(string)
{
returnstring = Trim(string);
returnstring = Replace(returnstring, '', 'amp;', 'all');
returnstring = Replace(returnstring, '', 'quot;', 'all');
return returnstring;
}
As mentioned before, also make sure you do it if you're dynamicly building
URLs with a querystring
(e.g. /blog.php?id=#something#amp;method=#somethingelse#)
Sorry, I don't do PHP. Someone else may have a PHP solution for you.
P
Its an in text, not in a URL or anything - I didn't realise this posed a
problem.
:(
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RE: [WSG] Problem Validating CSS
I've found that the entities mdash; and ndash; don't work in older browsers (like NN4), so best use the numeric entities: em-dash = #8212; en-dash = #8211; I agree entirely Justin. Sorry I didn't point that out. elispes (not epsilons) = #8230; Oops, how embarrassment! But I'd rather stick with 3 dots (...) as I have seen this one break badly in a search result or text browser or something, can't remember where now. May just be a stubborn bad habit. Sorry if that worries Peter (UH) as well. P * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] Hover issue
Hi JG, If you validate the page using the HTML validator, there is a link to check the CSS as well and this parses the page to validate the CSS (easier than validating all the CSS files individually if you have more than one and more correct as it uses the parsing tree). So go to: http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://lc55.co.uk/test/index.html (perfect!) and there is a link that says: If you use CSS in your document, you should also check it for validity using the W3C CSS Validation Service. Click on check it for validity and you'll get: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?uri=http://lc55.co.uk/test/inde x.html Errors URI : http://lc55.co.uk/test/d.css Line: 0 Context : #container Invalid number : margin-bottomToo many values or values are not recognized : 0 auto Line: 0 Context : #container Invalid number : margin-bottomToo many values or values are not recognized : 0 auto _ Now.. Why is this so? Sorry, I can't help you there right now, but probably something to do with the parsing tree. So why the commented stuff in: style type=text/css media=all /*![CDATA[*/ @import d.css; /*]]*/ /style P -Original Message- From: LC 55 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, February 16, 2004 8:09 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Hover issue Thanks Lucian for the feedback. I am puzzled re: you writing, The CSS doesn't validate. W3C validator was used and, the uri below validates it as CSS2. Hope the W3C were not just being kind to me! http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?uri=http%3A%2F%2F lc55.co.uk%2Ftest%2Fd.csswarning=1profile=css2usermedium=all Strange one this. So could you tell me where you tried the validation, please? Appreciate you testing it for me. Regards, JG --- Lucian Teo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Looks great on IE / Mac, Safari and Firefox / Mac. CSS doesn't yet validate though. :) Lucian On Feb 16, 2004, at 4:01 PM, LC 55 wrote: Hi all... Anyone care to check - http://lc55.co.uk/test/index.html please. I have a problem in IE 6 re: background image. The image at bottom right moves slightly down the page when hovering over footer links. Does the same problem exist across other browsers? Or are you finding any other problems? Any help appreciated. Regards, JG _ Why Pay $35 for a .COM, .NET or .ORG Web Address? iDotz.Net offers Cool Domains @ Great Prices! Starting @ $8.75 Go: http://www.idotz.net * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * _ Why Pay $35 for a .COM, .NET or .ORG Web Address? iDotz.Net offers Cool Domains @ Great Prices! Starting @ $8.75 Go: http://www.idotz.net * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] Cool No-delay image rollover technique
I know I have my browser (IE 6 WinXP Pro) set to not cache anything, but this method doesn't work for me. Over a second delay on rollover and roll off with a blank space in the meantime. It makes no difference to a _javascript_ preload at all. Much better code though so I'm not canning it. P. From: Michael Kear [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, February 16, 2004 10:11 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [WSG] Cool No-delay image rollover technique In a newsletter dropped into my inbox today was a reference to a great little article on how to get no-delay image rollovers using css positioning to get the rollover effect instead of _javascript_. Using this technique you can get all the graphical/ 3d advantages of _javascript_ rollovers, but instead of _javascript_ it uses CSS to move an image around giving the rollover effect. The articles at http://www.pixy.cz/blogg/clanky/cssnopreloadrollovers/ Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com
RE: [WSG] WHYYY??? WHYYYY???
Hmmm, a) it doesn't validate... Should really be fixed before posting unless validation is the question. b) Box model hack? danger will robinson / There are ways around this. I strongly suggest you lose this and structure the page so that is doesn't require it. c) Why the div class=clearboth/a ? I think br class=clearboth / would work much better and save some noodles in the soup. This may well have something to do with it. Extra div there pushing things around. I know Russ showed you this at some stage but I believe it was for a particular reason. You could also just add the rule to the required divs. I changed the width of #content down to 558px and then it works so you have an issue in the space held for that div. P -Original Message- From: Universal Head [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2004 5:29 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] WHYYY??? WH??? I beg of you, can someone explain why this works in every browser except WIN IE6? In that ^%%^$^ browser, the red content area does not sit where it should, beside the sidenav. http://www.universalhead.com/clients/test This should be so simple! It's driving me nuts! Thanks Peter * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] Opera
I keep biting my tongue on this subject. Let me state first... I have no particular love of IE. It's what the vast majority of my audience uses and therefore it's my default browser. If Mozilla or something else takes the market share, I'll change my default (as I did when Netscape 4.x lost dominance). Whether you like or dislike Win IE it IS the dominant browser. The time spent massaging code for browsers should be spent proportionally with the use of the browser, especially when the browser is anything less than version 1.x. In an ideal world where there were no rendering bugs or different behaviours (and IE is of course the worst offender) this wouldn't be an issue. Also remember that only developers frequently use different browsers. If there are slight differences in the layout between browsers, don't worry about it (as long as it doesn't break). 99.9% of the audience will never compare your cross-browser pixel-perfectness. Yes, it's great to check on all possible but anyone spending any amount time on other browsers like firefox and camino simply amazes me. They're pre-release (developer) browsers or Technology Previews in their own words. The public aren't using them (or if they are they have already been told not to expect them to work flawlessly). If they were finished (and bug-free) they would be at version 1.x and would be promoted as the next commercial release browser. At that point I would add them to my Must Work in production category. Mozilla 1.6 is the current public release. Konqueror is an Open Source web browser with HTML4.0 compliance... 'nuff said on that one (unless you are actually using HTML 4.0 of course, and I doubt that anyone here still is). Having said all that (and this is where my argument completely crumbles), Opera IS a commercial release but apparently has a very small market share. They are their own worst enemy on this front as (and I haven't checked a release for a while) the last version I installed defaulted to a Win IE user_agent string. How are we ever to know how many people are actually using Opera. Obviously your own server log files can give you the best picture of your users but a trend can be obtained from the following: http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2004/January/browser.php http://www.upsdell.com/BrowserNews/stat.htm http://www.webreference.com/stats/browser.html For a site with no particular web development bias (meaning that the browser stats for a site like webstandardsgroup.org will never be a good global benchmark as the audience is likely to use a wider range of browsers), take a look at the browser/OS stats for the Australian Museum. http://www.amonline.net.au/website/reports/amonline/0401/index_08_b.htm Unfortunately this is a pretty old WebTrends that doesn't know about a lot of newer browsers so they come under others. Please send flames off-list, and remember that this is only my personal view, and even Russ probably disagrees with me to some extent. P I'm curious - does anyone really think that getting things spot on for Opera is important? Hasn't this browser got a miniscule user base? And Opera seems to give me almost as many problems as IE anyway. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
[WSG] WSG Member Countries
Just thought you all may be interested in the WSG user base. 136 Australia 2 Austria 6 Belgium 8 Brazil 8 Canada 2 Denmark 1 Finland 1 France 8 Germany 1 Iceland 3 India 1 Indonesia 1 Iraq 4 Italy 1 Jordan 4 New Zealand 1 Norway 1 Peru 2 Philippines 1 Portugal 2 Russia 1 Scotland 2 Singapore 3 Spain 3 Sweden 1 Switzerland 3 The Netherlands 18 United Kingdom 1 Ukraine 45 USA Looks like we're missing only the African continent (and Antarctica I guess). P * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] IE bug
So move your form out to surround an area that isn't pixel-perfect
critical.. the whole page if necessary..
P
From: Chris Stratford
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2004
2:36 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [WSG]
IE bug
Is that why when you close a form /formit leaves a
gap...that ALWAYS annoyed me sooo much!Its only in IE - well as
far as i know...Chris Stratford
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Http://www.neester.comruss
weakley wrote:
Michael,
Haven't looked but it may be a simple Win/IE6 carriage return bug. It seems
that Win/IE is the only browser that renders carriage returns or line feeds
as whitespace directly before a closing containing element:
http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/mystery/
Two things to try if this is the case.
1. move the end div up onto the same line as the image
... width="586" height="183" border="0" //div
2. add a single CSS declaration to the banner rule set
#Banner {
width: 586px;
height: 183px;
padding: 0px;
border-left-style: none;
border-right-style: none;
border: 5px solid black;
margin: 0px 0px 12px 0px;
border-right-width: 0px;
border-left-width: 0px;
}
Add a new declaration:
font-size: 1px;
My weird theory is that this makes the carriage return small enough that it
cannot be seen.
HTH
Russ
A guy on a message board I mod is having some issues with IE6 Win and
his layout. Anyone with IE6Win care to take a look. I tried a few
things with no luck, doesn't seem to be the PHP rotator causing issues
but the image itself.
Thanks, MD
here is the website: hippopocampe.org
here is the css: hippopocampe.org/styles-site.css
in IE6 in Windows, the bottom border of the main image header (the
rotate.php) is off 5 pixels like if the image had a 5 pixel
bottom-padding. But it hasn't. That affects the header but also the
'main' section, as it too is 5 pixels off. Any suggestions for a
workaround?
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RE: [WSG] Debrief and thanks to Russ Peter
Thanks Tim, A big, big thanks to Ben Bishop Daemon and Mark Stanton Gruden as well as Sean Corfield for his insight into Macromedia's accessibility and standards strategies and Russ Weakley for a great presentation entitled The benefits of Web Standards to your visitors, your clients and you!. Also thanks to Andrew for officiating. A fantastic turnout! A few things to follow up: As mentioned in the panel session, some guidelines for HTML Email (not mine but seems well researched if you're at all interested): http://webstandardsgroup.org/go/resource135.cfm Russ' presentation notes: http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/benefits/ Peter: Hope to see the photos on the website soon! As requested... a few snapshots: http://webstandardsgroup.org/go/event6.cfm Thanks again everybody. Looking forward to the next WSG meeting. -- tim Next, to Melbourne on 8th March for our inaugural meeting outside Sydney with guest speaker John Allsopp (http://www.alistapart.com/authors/johnallsopp/) talking about The history and future of CSS! If you haven't RSVP'd yet please write to [EMAIL PROTECTED] (for catering purposes) and we look forward to meeting you there. All are welcome. See http://webstandardsgroup.org/go/event7.cfm for details. Have a great conference everyone! Regards, Peter Firminger * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] DTDS and which to use?
Jaime, this is not a CSS list so no apology required. You are definitely on-topic. Unless you want to tell your client to go all the way I suggest you tell them that they are clutching for buzzwords by demanding XHTML 1.0 Strict (or anything beyond XHTML 1.0 Transitional). If they continue to demand it and you want to do it properly, you'll need to change the mime-type of the documents sent in the header from the server and do it properly. No argument what-so-ever if you do it properly and actually have a need to use the structured data. I doubt that you do have that need. I recommend (as we at webboy do frequently with (potential) clients touting buzzwords) that you re-educate the client, and if it's only page mark-up you need (with no structured data required in the document) then HTML 4.01 is arguably still the latest appropriate mark-up language to use. If you haven't seen it already, please read the Mark Stanton message on the subject. http://www.mail-archive.com/wsg%40webstandardsgroup.org/msg00572.html P * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] silly question about meta tags
Good question Peter! Absolutely. The metadata is about the page not the site and should be unique (at least the title and description) for every page. Depends on how much metadata you use. This leads to a really deep discussion about metadata that we may have at some point, but in the mean time you may want to take a look at some of the metadata on the pages within http://www.gt.nsw.gov.au/ and then the AGLS Harvest Control List (HCL) at http://www.gt.nsw.gov.au/meta/ and the RDF summary for the other files in the site at http://www.gt.nsw.gov.au/meta/metadata.cfm Everything in this site (apart from the images used in the site design) has a fully compliant AGLS record that is generated in real time. If the client adds or adjusts a page then the embedded data and the HCL (including it's timestamp and version number (within that day)) are updated. I'm really anal about metadata being as correct as possible and others around me often think I go too far. Make it part of your workflow and it's easy! Build it thoughtfully into your CMS and most of it writes itself. Regards, Peter -Original Message- From: Universal Head [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 3:17 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] silly question about meta tags Dumb question but ... Do you repeat your META tags on every page of your site, or only the index page? Thanks Peter * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] silly question about meta tags
PS. Not all search engines read nor care about meta keywords In fact, we believe that only one (not too significant) SE looks at them at all and they would be far down the decision list there anyway as they are perfect spambait for spamming the engines with incorrect metadata. There is some stuff in http://webstandardsgroup.org/go/resourcecat16.cfm and also some links on http://webstandardsgroup.org/manage/archive.cfm?uid=6D1B4A92-EAD2-3F25-BD362 3DE0FF80603 (you'll have to log in I'm afraid, can't find it on mail-archive.com, they seem to have lost a lot of stuff.. I'll let them know). P * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
[WSG] XHTML Basic 1.0
In looking for some other stuff on W3, I stumbled across this pagehttp://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-basic/ The DTD is "-//W3C//DTD XHTML Basic 1.0//EN" Anyone had anything to do with this? I hadn't heard of it at all (maybe I'm ignorant and should spend more time trawling the W3 site). P
RE: [WSG] Email Standards?
Hi Lorenzo, Firstly thanks for joining! You wrapped up one of the two continents we were missing in our members. Only Antarctica to go now (I think?). You could try looking at the document on http://webstandardsgroup.org/go/resource135.cfm Regards, Peter PS: While I'm at it a quick member country count... Australia 156 Austria 2 Belgium 6 Brasil 8 Canada 8 Denmark 3 España 6 Finland 1 France 1 Germany 11 Iceland 1 India 3 Indonesia 1 Iraq 1 Italy 5 Jordan 1 Netherlands 1 New Zealand 5 Philippines 2 Poland 1 Portugal 1 Russia 2 Scotland 1 Singapore 2 Slovenia 1 South Africa 1 Sri Lanka 1 Sweden 3 Switzerland 1 The Netherlands 2 UK 19 Ukraine 1 USA 51 Total 309 members in 35 countries Hi all, I realise this may not be 100% relevant to this discussion group, but is there some kind of standard for email html design? I refer specifically to techniques that allow for graceful degradation when a newer feature (e.g. CSS2) isn't supported by an email client. I've spent some time searching online, but can't find anything comprehensive on the topic. Any help appreciated. - Lorenzo * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] Email Standards?
Hyperlinking URIs and email addresses in plain text emails is handled by the client (e.g. Outlook) so there is no need. HTML or Rich text email is a real problem. If you get a digest version of most lists you get the raw code in the digest version as it is mixed format and text takes precedence (my opinion based on observation). Our list [wsg] tries to get around this by attaching each message as an attachment when in digest mode. This is not ideal either. As most email is read on a client it works ok, it's just when you have to do anything else with it (like we do archiving it in a number of formats) that it becomes a problem. You must supply it in a multipart format with both rich and plain text versions. Just sending HTML is not good as you really don't know how it will be received by both servers (which may include a webmail interface) and clients. This is also a good time for me to request that people who default to HTML email try and remember to change to plain text when sending to this list. Also never ask for a receipt (I get a lot of the receipts that are sent back) and please don't put vacation messages on every weekend. We know you're away 'til Monday and really don't care. I hope that one day both vacation messages and the extremely rude read receipts will be dropped from email specs. P -Original Message- From: Carl Reynolds [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2004 5:10 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Email Standards? I understand your saying that you should use text as much as possible when generating e-mails. Is it possible to send links in a text e-mail and have them be hot? That seems to be the main thing I use HTML in an e-mail for. James Ellis wrote: ... Use of plain text is highly recommended. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] Email Standards?
Hyperlinking URIs and email addresses in plain text emails is handled by the client (e.g. Outlook) so there is no need. Let me add to that. With a URI , starting with http:// or www. should kick in a link. For a site like webstandardsgroup.org (which doesn't ever use www.) you would need to use http://webstandardsgroup.org/ As James said appending mailto: will help email addresses as well though any string containing a @ and a . should be linked. P * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] A few questions needing answers
And I'll add a bit: Forms on Websites Is there a good place that explains/makes available the coding involved for putting simple forms on sites? My programming knowledge doesn't go beyond css, xhtml and using JavaScript nuggets, but I've always wanted to be able to put contact forms on my sites. I think your question was more on how to process them. While you can do it using JavaScript, it is NOT recommended. I'll go further, just don't do it. Processing forms should be done on the server using whatever server side application server or scripting language you have at your disposal. ColdFusion makes it really easy. I assume PHP is easy as well. In the absence of those you'll probably find that you have access to a server wide Perl script (like formmail.pl) or something in ASP or .NET. At worst maybe a Frontpage widget (yukko). Ask your ISP what is available (or look in the help files on the ISP website) as they'll generally have this common question answered. With formmail.pl you don't need much knowledge, you just add info in hidden form fields in your form, but the email sent is butt-ugly! See http://www.scriptarchive.com/formmail.html Relative vs Absolute Links I agree with James first answer. Change hosts! I can see absolutely no reason for this apart from an idiot ISP. Speaking of idiot ISPs... Was it TPG (http://www.tpg.com.au/help_desk/activate.html - This form is best viewed with IE 3.04 or Netscape 3.03 and above.)? HTML vs PHP Nothing to add here. P * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] Bobby question
Hi Mike, Bobby is an accessibility checker with a huge chip on it's shoulder. http://bobby.watchfire.com/bobby/html/en/index.jsp In my opinion it supposes too much and is basically a self righteous piece of rubbish. Take www.gt.nsw.gov.au for example. http://bobby.watchfire.com/bobby/bobbyServlet?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gt.nsw.go v.au%2Foutput=Submitgl=wcag1-aaatest= We went to a huge amount of trouble to do everything right on this site, including a style switcher for various visual options. Because of that and some other absolute crap it tells us that repair is needed. No! Wrong. Bad bobby. Bad tool. P -Original Message- From: Michael Kear [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2004 8:02 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] Bobby question Sorry if this is such a dumb question that it displays more of my ignorance than anything else, but this is the second time in the last few weeks I've heard references to Bobby, but Who the hell is Bobby? And what does he have to do with us? Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] Bobby question
Hi Martin, I'm not familiar with this at all. How much of this example would be auto-generated? One would assume that a lot of it could be fixed by putting things in the right place (scripts in the head section and adding a doctype). http://www.add2web.dk/aspdatagrid/Sample/default.asp P * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] Bobby question
Hi Jaime,
Yes it's very important. Many differently-abled people don't use a mouse.
They use the keyboard to navigate around a page/site (generally much faster
and more efficiently than any mouse user). By using onclick or onmousedown
etc. you may be blocking their access to whatever the resource is.
Having said that, something like:
a href=copyright.htm onClick=window.open('',
'copyright','toolbar=0,location=0,directories=0,status=0,menubar=0,scrollbar
s=auto,resizable=0,width=310,height=300') target=copyright
will still work ok as the default behaviour of the href will generally be
used anyway.
Best thing to do is put the mouse under your desk and navigate with the
keyboard alone and see what you can and cannot do on your site.
Or, go to one of the Public Lynx access sites mentioned on
http://www.subir.com/lynx/public_lynx.html with
telnet://guest.sailor.lib.md.us/ being a good one.
quote
On Priority 1 or 2..I forgot which. There is this rule that states that one
should not use onclick for JavaScript. The problem is that most programmers
uses onclick and other actions that requires mouse.
Do you guys try to satisfy this rule? I was thinking if I got to satisfy
that rule, this means that I have to mess around with all the javascripts.
This thought puts me off.
/quote
Please try to use plain text email for this list as your email colours are
very difficult for me (colour-blind) to read. A hint to all. You should
(with a decent email client) be able to set it to send palin text only based
on the address [EMAIL PROTECTED] This should throw a warning if you
try to send html email.
P
*
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*
RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list
I might just point out some of the other WSG bits pieces that many people probably aren't aware of: - the resources section http://webstandardsgroup.org/resources/ (which I believe everyone on the list is able to add to) - the WSG CMS list (buggered if I can remember how you join... Pete?) Thanks Lindsay. It's only had 8 posts so far (4 from me). See http://www.mail-archive.com/cms%40webstandardsgroup.org/ To join, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with subscribe cms (no quotes) as the body (not subject). The [WSG] is added at the mail server so Taco's would be an addition to that which I can't see working (I'd forget every time). I'm happy to set up different lists if you like, but maintenance would be a bit weird. We get a couple of hundred bounces every day (and if you've mysteriously been transformed to digest mode it means that you were bouncing for an extended period and I changed your mode so I only had one bounce per day from you to deal with). So far we have: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (The primary one) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (optional) We could also do other variants: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] This would mean that people only interested in general standards discussion could just remain on the default list and those that wanted to also get (or give) CSS help could joint the CSS list as well. I would make the [EMAIL PROTECTED] mandatory (your login is based on this one) with the others as options. There should be no increase in traffic, just a split and a possibility of significantly less traffic for the person that doesn't do CSS coding but wants to keep abreast of the other discussions. It would mean that I would bulk subscribe everyone currently on wsg@ to each of the new lists (but not cms@) and then allow you to unsub each manually if you want to as I don't want to have to enter specifics for 330ish people. Is this worth pursuing? While we're at it... Please make sure you free email account doesn't go over quota. Please don't ever request read receipts (I get most of them rather than you). P * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] Links for light reading...
Also of some interest, maybe a bit old... Aug 7 2003 http://discover.npr.org/features/feature.jhtml?wfId=1388637 Paul Ford from ftrain.com on web standards. Nice to hear NPR on a topic close to my heart. I'm available for an interview too! (my public broadcasting (ABC) background showing through now). P * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] New CSS site
link rel="shortcut icon" href=""http://webboy.net/webboy.ico">http://webboy.net/webboy.ico" / From: Universal Head [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 1:36 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [WSG] New CSS site This doesn't validate either - does anyone have the correct validating code for inserting a favicon?PeterOn 12/03/2004, at 12:50 PM, James Ellis wrote: The validator is having some issues with link rel="shortcut icon"trylink rel="icon" ... / instead and you'll have a valid site!Universal HeadDesign That Works.7/43 Bridge Rd StanmoreNSW 2048 AustraliaT (+612) 9517 1466F (+612) 9565 4747E [EMAIL PROTECTED]W www.universalhead.com
RE: [WSG] New CSS site (end of thread please)
As long as you don't mind all the 404 errors. Best practice: * Use the icon format with as many versions as you like (16x16, 32x32, 16 colour, 256 colour etc.) within that file. * Use favicon.ico as the filename and put in in the site root. This will account for a majority by default. * On every page in the site, use link rel=shortcut icon href=http://domain.name/favicon.ico; /. This accounts for old IE browsers that may look in the current dir for the icon if the link isn't present. (Of course leave out the trailing / for HTML versions). I don't mean /favicon.ico I mean http://domain.name/favicon.ico; meaning the full uri of the file. Trust me, it works. That covers as many options as is possible. Having done this we reduce 404 errors on this file to zero so I must be pretty well right. Why did I have webboy.ico in my example? Because we run three sites from the same codebase. We have three specific favicons and a plain default favicon.ico for browsers that don't read the link tag. No it's not the only answer but it works and the thread has gone on long enough now. P What a shock! ;) link rel=shortcut icon href=http://www.cinema4duser.com/favicon.ico; / works fine and also vaidates it seems. And you only have to put it in the index.html page. Thanks P * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] New CSS site
I meant end of favicon topic, not feedback on the site. Sorry, P * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] overflow IE problem
Hi 7,
Can you please supply a link to the page in question as well as the CSS
file(s).
In order to help we need to be able to see it in action in case there is
something else in the code affecting or conflicting with it. This also lets
us see what language and version you are using and whether or not you are
operating in quirks mode depending on your doctype.
Regards,
Peter
im trying to place a member login field on top of a
ImageMapped Header...
In mozilla i have it working perfect, but IE wont show the
fields at all.
#login{
overflow:hidden;
width: 131px;
color:#fff;
font: 10px Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
height: 131px;
background: url(loginback.gif) no-repeat;
}
is there something extra i should be adding to get it to
render ok in IE (6
btw)?
too my knowledge IE has no trouble with rendering overflow: ney?
all help is welcome and much appreciated.
*
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*
RE: [WSG] New to WSG
Yep, getting that a lot this morning.. The details are at the end of the welcome email (which no-one seems to read)... I will warn you however that the digest version isn't perfect. I'm about to upgrade the mail server so we'll see if it improves but it is received as an email with attachments on some mail clients. _ Commands to be sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] (used in the body of the message NOT the subject line) from the registered email address: Using the Set mode digest wsg (no quotes) command will send all messages from lists within one file based on an interval set by the moderator (daily). Using the Set mode standard wsg (no quotes) command will send all messages individually and is the standard option. _ Welcome to all the new members, Peter (Listdad) I do have a question, is there a digest version of this list? The list is just too high volume for my work account. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
[WSG] Sorry about the old posts
They seem to be emanating from a bt.com smtp server. Any ideas BT members? Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Received: from smtp4.smtp.bt.com [217.32.164.151] by mail.webboy.net with SMTP; Wed, 17 Mar 2004 12:34:52 +1100 Peter * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] Usability Week 2004
They're at http://www.nngroup.com/events/sydney/prices.html . Worst case (5 days no EB) AUD$3,618 per head. Not 20K but still pretty steep. P I wanted to send this out early so we can all benefit from the early discount fee. Thanks - that will also give us all time to have some good long discussions with our bank managers about that second mortgage :) 3 days with Jakob = $20K (I'm guessing this is US dollars). I couldn't find pricing on individual sessions Cheers Mark * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] Next Sydney meeting - a fantastic guest presenter
Hmmm yes, we have access to three (mini) DV cameras that I know of. Processing all that video will be a bit of a pain though. We'll probably do an hour with David so it may not be very practical, and I don't really want to serve that much video from my server. Maybe someone in Sydney can volunteer to take the tape, edit it down to some key demo points (5-10 mins) and convert it to QuickTime and Windows Media. I really won't have the time to do this. Thanks for the suggestion. We'll let you know. P Anybody got a DV-Cam? Maybe for meetings we could video guest speakers (with their permission of course), type up transcripts and post both to the website along with their comments. I think this is just too important to let go for those who aren't in Sydney (which, luckily, I am!) and for the visually-abled David's Top 50 list would have much more an impact with the accompanying video. Just an idea... -- tim * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] forum @ WSG?c]
Hi Scott, Not off topic at all. We're right in the middle of a planning stage for WSG and will be making some announcements soon. Yes we have discussed a forum, but have agreed that it will not fulfil the purpose as questions won't get answered with the same speed. I am on many fora and only ever go to them when I have a problem, then I get in and out without answering others questions. We don't want that to happen here, but we are looking at some passive solutions. Tim mentioned an NNTP (news) in the last 24 hours but this is not likely to happen I'm afraid. Integrating the list and an nntp server isn't that simple (with the server software I have available) and the list is (and will remain) the primary method of active communication for this community. I'll look at the IIS NNTP thingie again soon and see if I can get it working as a read-only newsfeed. Don't hold your breath though. We are currently testing an RSS feed of the list (obviously read only) with all email addresses (loudly) hidden but threading is still an issue with RSS 2.0. It also links to the members section so a login is required if you don't read it within the blog reader. We are looking at Atom as well and this should allow threading (I believe) but I haven't done it yet. While we're on the subject (although it's over a week old now) http://nick.typepad.com/blog/2004/03/dave_winer_merg.html (Doh! Just let it go Dave...) Stay tuned for more on the WSG site rebuild soon. Regards, Peter first post to this list - greetings to everyone. i'd just like to know if there are any plans for a forum on WSG? i bet it's been thought of, but i just thought i'd mention it. cheers, scott * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] [CSS] IE6 header issue.
The address is? P Hello all, Ok this is my first fully CSS based site (still work in progress by the way) and I first of all want to give credit to Russ's great * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] XHTML: 1.0 transitional-1.0 strict-1.1
The quick test is to simply change the doctype and hit a validator to see what issues arise from your code and then work through them. Remember though that if you're changing from XHTML 1.0 Transitional, then you really need to change the way the document is sent to the browser, the mime type really needs to be changed from text/html to application/xhtml+xml. IE won't be able to use this though so you'll need to do something on the server to present an alternative to this (the dominant) browser. See http://xstandard.com/page.asp?p=16A6EBD1-9EEC-4611-98C8-C0F6234B9737 for an explanation and solution (one of many). There are tools that can help you retrofit. I believe HTMLTidy is one of them though I've never used it myself. P -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Neerav Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2004 8:09 PM To: WSG Subject: [WSG] XHTML: 1.0 transitional-1.0 strict-1.1 Ive found that coding a new site in XHTML 1.0 transitional is easy after some practice, but requires great effort when retrofitting an old site. So now im comfortable using XHTML 1.0 transitional how hard would moving to 1.0 strict and then onto 1.1 be? I already know that moving to XHTML 1.0 strict leads to problems with link targets for new pages etc, are there any other documented problems? -- Neerav Bhatt http://www.bhatt.id.au * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] Thanks messages
A general note to all. Due to the increase in traffic, probably better to send Thanks emails that contain nothing else directly to the sender rather than to the list. Thanks, Peter * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Help us redesign the WSG site
H... All very interesting. To do this we may have to change the functionality of the CMS a bit and maybe even hard code the pages that rarely change due to the needs of a site that displays code on the page by default (when pasted in). I don't think that many outside the core group have actually used it though so this shouldn't be an issue as any requests for changes to the content could still be sent to us. As Russ said it was built very quickly along these lines. So, we'll now discuss this and get back to you about how we'll proceed. Thanks for all your input again. P So if Russ is willing to completely change the rules, we are willing to put up with some lively discussions on most suitable page strucutre, I for one am looking forward to the opportunity. +1 To discuss the page structure would be very interesting since this is a concrete use case and the site is not too complex. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Font size, and how large is large enough?
Hi Darian, I'm considering changing the fonts for my website's CSS to arial... maybe. I wouldn't bother. Verdana is perfectly acceptable with the Arial, Sans-serif backup. I still like verdana, I'm so stubborn (_) I don't think either of these font are really offending to anyone. Maybe if I was considering some crazy artistic font it could annoy some viewers. I dunno. It won't ever bother the users that hate the font so much they remove it from their system. That's their choice. P * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Scrollbars in IE6 (PC)
Hi Vaska, Posting a link to it will really help. Without seeing the rest of the HTML (doctype etc.) we have no idea about whether or not you are in standards compliant mode and what else is in there. Are you using a frameset doctype. Have you validated all your code (html and css)? Can I ask (in the absence of seeing it) why you are using frames at all? P * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Font size, and how large is large enough?
So you're saying we should all just use black default font on white pages then? Not going to happen! It's a pathetic argument Felix. Really not worth bothering with. Peter On the contrary. Because authors using Verdana as primary size according to their own taste for the giant font, when people without it see the fallback, whatever that may be, it is a virtual certainty that whatever replaces it will be smaller. Have you not read http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/verdana.html? * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] How do I start a group in a city
Title: How do I start a group in a city Hi Brian, There would be no real need for a domain and local website as you could post your meeting notices, presentation materialsetc. on the WSGsite giving you exposure to others that may happen along later. That is unless you didn't want it to be a WSG meeting :-) I have added a link to a table showing all member cities, states and countries with a first name only to protect people's privacy. This is ordered by country, state, city (so you may want to adjust your details in the database to normalise the data in spelling, abbreviation etc). You can get to it from the bottom of the members page just above the Country/Member count. We can put you in contact with others in your area to discuss a potential meetingif you like. We make the initial contact and onlyshare the detailsof people wishing to participate so your privacy is assured. Let us know off list ([EMAIL PROTECTED]). It really is worth the time to get together for an evening every6 or 8 weeks. Having been to every meeting so far (Sydney and Melbourne) I have never been bored or disappointed, and I'm not the socialising type! P I think it would be interesting to say the least and at least a good reason to invite others over to bring the beer once a month and discuss web stuff - so how does one go 'bout starting up a local group. AS I run my own servers, I have the domain space to donate and can likely swing the $10 for a .org domain. So that end is covered. Brian
RE: [WSG] What's wrong with this page??
Unsubscribing will fix it Felix. P Why do people send this junk to a mailing list? Why doesn't the mailing list software strip it out? * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Layout 39% not 39%
Title: Message Hmmm, Try putting it into standards compliant mode and it's different, but still not correct. Also putting the style into the head section will help... Really can't expect anything good to happen where it is. Try margin-left: 9%; See http://webboy.net/jobs/css/taco.htm P From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Taco FleurSent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 5:30 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [WSG] Layout 39% not 39% Does anyone know why on http://development.content3.com/test.htm the left column is not 39% in width? The column has width: 30%: margin-left: 9%: Now if you look at the HR tags above this column you'll see one with a width of 9% and one with a width of 39% and they seem to be the correct width. Any ideas? Taco Fleur Tell me and I will forgetShow me and I will rememberTeach me and I will learn
RE: [WSG] I am having a problem...
Hi Chris,
I believe you may need to address all states of the a selector: link,
visited and active as well as hover (which you do separately):
#navigation a.current:link, #navigation a.current:visited, #navigation
a.current:active,
{
background-color: #FFF;
border-bottom: 1px solid #FFF;
font-weight: bold;
}
#navigation a.current:hover
{
background-color: #FFF;
text-decoration: underline;
border-bottom: 1px solid #FFF;
}
I haven't tested it here but it is something I commonly come across in IE.
Worth a try...
A more descriptive subject line please Chris...
P
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RE: [WSG] CSS Tables
Hi and welcome Noa! The only advantage I can tell is that it just doesn't use any table or td or tr tags, which I have an irrational hatred towards. Let's not get carried away with hatred for tables. They have a place in (x)html and where appropriate are the best tool for the job. Using them as a layout hack is worthy of hatred, but not for tabular data. The use of summary caption and using header with ids to link column and row headings (ths) to the data also makes them completely accessible as they are then self-describing when accessed non-visually by assistive technologies. When entering any cell it will also give which column and row the cell belongs to. Take a look at http://www.evolt.org/article/Building_accessible_tables/4090/42090/ (I know there's a better one but can't think of it right now). An analogy: Think of tables as a drug like morphine which has both legitimate and inappropriate uses (medical and recreational in case some of you are in a table-induced haze). Many people got hooked on tables for inappropriate use late last century and are still having trouble breaking the habit, but in the hands of a skilled practitioner, they can do a lot of good. We need a wing at the Betty Ford clinic for table addicts... P * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] I am having a problem... Tab (li) width
Did my suggestion last night help? Hey everyone... this problem is still a problem for me... anyone have any suggestions?? basically - I want to define the width of the tabs on my website... withouth havint to add a span... Try something like this locally if you want to have different values for each: li style=width: 80px;a href=/something/index.htmSomething/a/li li style=width: 90px;a href=/something/index.htmSomething/a/li li style=width: 1000px;a href=/something/index.htmSomething/a/li P * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Org Charts
Great question! I must admit to copping out to a gif on the rare occasions we have had to do this but SVG may be an option. Does anyone know if the SVG plug-ins are pre-installed with browsers (IE in particular) now? I seem to have the adobe plug-ins (I'm on WinXP Pro) but can't remember if I installed it myself. Also what native support for SVG is around in the other browsers? P Does anybody have some good examples of proper HTML and good css for a Org charts. Actually the semantically correct HTML just layers of unordered lists, and the corresponding List Items. I'm just having trouble visualizing how I need to construct the CSS under it to get the visually preferred tree structure. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] Validity! (was EMBED tag)
Hi all, The goal in adhering to web standards isn't to pass the validator, it's to write valid code. The validator is just a tool to help achieve this. Fudging to fool the validator is just cheating on a test. If it's not in the spec it shouldn't be on the page, whether it's hard coded or dynamically written by in by the client using JavaScript. P You can use javascript to write the embed tag so that it passes the validator. You can also use several techniques that will allow you to exclude the embed tag altogether (Flash Satay and others). I tend to just let the embed tag go as it is. I will validate my site first, then just drop the embed tag in there. If it is the only thing causing a site not to validate, what harm is it really? * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Is a degree necessary? THREAD CLOSED
Russ already stopped this thread. Please do not continue with it on list. P * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] XHTML/HTML
Hi Tina, I would suggest using HTML 4.01 Transitional over HTML 4.0 but I can't remember why now. I think (maybe) it is more consistently displayed across browsers. I know we had a reason to make sure we changed all our stuff years ago but it was probably to do with NN 4 at that stage. There is no requirement to change to XHTML and some of us argue that it's too early to go there yet anyway as the major browser doesn't support it when done absolutely correctly. Using XHTML 1.0 Transitional does work though, but there is no real benefit over HTML 4.01 for most websites as XHTML 1.0 Transitional is pretty well HTML 5 with a few extra requirements and it will tolerate faults pretty well. Depending on how complex your site is and what you use to edit content, you may have some issues (e.g. running a verity search engine across XHTML can be problematic and inline HTML editors in Content Management Systems can cause you headaches). Once you get into XHTML 1.1 (served correctly) things will break if not well formed and valid. The difference here is that should no longer be served up as text/html and this is where the fun starts with the major browser (IE). Anyway you asked about doctypes. Here is some reading for you, a list of doctypes and a good article on the subject: http://www.w3.org/QA/2002/04/valid-dtd-list.html http://www.alistapart.com/articles/doctype/ P I learned HTML with HTML 4.0 and I am now moving over to XHTML as it seems that all future coding will be XHTML. I know that XHTML is stricter in its formation, but I am curious to know what I should put in the DOCTYPE area of my pages if I am using XHTML. Is it HTML 4.0 Transitional or XHTML Transitional or XHTML strict? - Tina * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] When the mix of visual appearance and meaning goes really bad
I'm sure lot's of people probably use em when they aren't really emphasising something, but simply wanting to make something italic. Absolutely! In natural science (specifically speaking about species names here) Italics are the way to present the scientific name (genus species pair or senior synonym like iThorunna australis/i or even just the species or shorthand variations), not emphasis. I think there is a good argument for using i here as it isn't ambiguous in any way that I want italics. In this case em is just semantically wrong and i simply should not be deprecated. There may be an argument for an xml structure here though: senior_synonym genusThorunna/genus speciesaustralis/species /senior_synonym But in most cases we certainly don't need this as we are marking up text for the sake of displaying text, not extraction for any other reason by any other agent. The extra bytes are a total waste of bandwidth and when you get to heavily used repositories of text-based factsheets like http://amonline.net.au/fishes/fishfacts/specfam.htm or http://seaslugforum.net/species.htm it can make quite a difference in speed and money. A random example http://seaslugforum.net/thoraust.htm shows how many times species names can appear in a fact sheet (this is one of the shorter ones and yes we are currently rebuilding this overgrown and complex data-driven site so no comments please) and it also shows the scientific requirement for italics in citations, but that's another argument entirely. P * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] CSS: writing-mode / MS runs W3C?
AMEN Brother! Thanks for saying it. Kinda gets lonely out on this limb... (sorry for the content-free reply) P From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Simon JesseySent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 11:56 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [WSG] CSS: writing-mode / MS runs W3C? Microsoft is indeed a major contributor to the World Wide Web Consortium, but the W3C is an independent organization. Financial and technical contributions come from a wide variety of industry sources. Microsoft certainly DOESN'T call the shots at the W3C. You should never think of IE as "the worst browser out there". Internet Explorer was one of the first web browsers to include support for Cascading Style Sheets. IE5 for the Mac has revolutionary support. IE6.0/Win is actually an excellent browser, with good support for most of CSS1 and a large proportion of CSS2. Most IE frustration is caused by the need for web designers to support earlier versions of IE (5.0 and 5.5), and the lack of updates to the existing client. Microsoft's dominant market position creates a condition where browser enhancements and innovation are not very important. The need for native PNG alpha transparency support, full support for position:fixed, and other similar things DO frustrate designers; however, we must be thankful that IE6 is as good as it is. Remember, it was not all that long ago that the "worst browser out there" was Netscape Navigator 4.x. For too long, web designers were forced to accomodate this truly awful abomination. Thankfully, its market share now barely registers on the browser stats charts. Simon Jessey--mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]web : http://jessey.net/blog/work: http://keystonewebsites.com/ - Original Message - From: Chris Stratford To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 8:03 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] CSS: writing-mode Ok thanks guys!That cleared up my curiosity for the day!btw another thing...I have been told by someone that the W3C is controlled by MS.Which I thought was total crap since IE is the worst browser out there...I know that MS dontated a lot of tech to W3C... is there any validity to my friends suggestion??
[WSG] Read Receipts!
John (and anyone else that has them on by default), Turn off read receipt requests when posting to this list! These horribly invasive things are worse than spam and I get most of them returned to me being the list administrator! I have 47 so far, thanks mate. There are 580+ addresses on this list and some people have their settings to automatically return the receipt. I advise everyone to set their preferencesto either deny all read receipt requests or at least ask before sending them (and in the case of WSG list messages always deny them). I wish this feature of email had never been included or at worst the default setting was deny all in client settings. It is a breach of your own privacy if you don't deny them. As a lurker, no-one (except the administrators) on the list knows your address but if you send a read receipt you may be exposed to the sender or even the whole list. Peter (unimpressed list dad) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John McDougaldSent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 2:08 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [WSG] SMH launch Pete, I just check with Opera and everything looks fine. Im running windows xp pro. John McDougald Jazz Alley XG Midis -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Peter OtterySent: Wednesday, April 28, 2004 8:28 PMTo: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'Subject: RE: [WSG] SMH launch when we launched theage.com.au last week Justin pointed outa way (adding 1px padding to the left of the main "#wrap" div) to make Firefox keep the background image aligned hard left with the content when your browser window was narrower than the content - and stopped the background image becoming mis-aligned with the content. Even tho that fixed it in Firefox the problem still exists in Opera and mac ie. Heres a screenshot of the new smh site with a browser window set narrower than the content (note the body bg mis-aligned with the left nav): http://www.c41.com.au/test/opera7_2_squished.jpg any ideasof a way to make these browsers keep the background image aligned hard left and not adversly affect anything else? pete
RE: [WSG] Org Charts
Hi Geoff, I still think that SVG is worth investigating though will be a steep learning curve. This one is pretty impressive, especially the relationships. http://www.w3.org/2003/02/W3COrg.svg P Deb, That looks pretty cool. Is it dynamically or manually built? We've been working on dynamically creating org charts for HR data out of SAP -- we gave up on HTML/CSS just too damn hard. We've have since moved to Flash with tremendous results -- slick, animated, printable, cross-platform. Nevertheless I'd be interested in seeing if anyone's been able to come up with a dynamically generated HTML/CSS based solution. -- geoff http://www.daemon.com.au/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] WSG design competition voting time
Hi, I really don't think we want to discuss people's voting reasons on list. That can be done on http://discuss.webstandardsgroup.org/archives/12.htm if you really want to. They are flat graphic mock-ups so there is no code at this stage. The chosen design will be built correctly. When voting remember that it's a two step process. Pick the one you want in the first column and then rate each design (reading the column header to see which column is 2 or -2) in the others. I won't change it now as that'll make it even more confusing. Love it on the left! P * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] PHP is OT (was: javascript form submission)
That'll do for the PHP stuff now thanks folks. There are plenty of resources available online. Use google to locate them. Something like http://www.google.com/search?q=php+form+validation P * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] WSG Redesign Closed
Hi Members, Voting has now closed for the WSG design competition. For your information, here are the top 3 results: Voting (total 144 votes): 69 votes (47.9%) - Russ Weakley 35 votes (24.3%) - Current Site 17 votes (11.8%) - Lindsay Evans Rating (sum of points awarded -2 to 2): 154 - Russ Weakley 61 - Lindsay Evans 39 - Current Site To be honest, the exercise did not go as well as we had planned. While the initial interest seemed high, we received only 3 member submissions from approximately 600 members and only 23% of the membership made the effort to vote. This clearly shows there isn't much interest in participating in the WSG redesign. We hear you loud and clear! Rather than drag this project out any further we have decided to put it out of its misery. No one will be awarded the winner and we will not continue with the open redesign process. The host (webboy.net) will remain responsible for the design of the website and this may involve inviting members directly for input at a later date. We will now implement some changes to the operation and codebase of the website but in the short term, the existing look and feel will remain pretty well as is. We would like to thank the three members who submitted entries; Lindsay Evans, Hugh Todd and Susan Gossman. All three entrants will receive a copy of Dan Cederholm's book Web Standards Solutions: The Markup and Style Handbook for taking the time to enter and they should all be congratulated for the spirit and courage it took to step out in front of a somewhat intimidating audience. We would also like to thank those 144 members that took the time to vote. Oh well. Live and learn! Any discussion on this topic should take place on http://discuss.webstandardsgroup.org/archives/12.htm Peter and Russ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] WSG Redesign Closed
I repeat from my initial post... Any discussion on this topic should take place on http://discuss.webstandardsgroup.org/archives/12.htm This is not negotiable! Peter Listdad * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] strange white flash on mouseover
Works perfectly on IE 6 for me. There's always a flash of no BG on IE but it returns as it loads it again. IE separates the normal and hover states and when you roll over it loads the image again, even though it's the same one. Try the nav on the WSG site in IE and you'll see the same happens to the bullets. There's no different hover state BTW. If you're looking for another colour to appear there isn't one. That wasn't the problem. P Dear Neerav and Marc I have settings set as Marc recommended and still got no mouseovers in IE 6. Erietta * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Browsers Emulator
It's very difficult (impossible) to emulate all the bugs in a browser without running the browser. Emulators can emulate the required behaviour but generally not the bugs. So unless you actually do what people like browsercam have done and set up a bank of machines running the browsers and screenshot them, it's a bit pointless. P well i'm not trying to use an paid-online tool i'm trying to build open source free tool. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Budget Design CLOSED NOW THANKS
I've let this ramble on a bit as a) it seemed interesting to a number of you and b) it is a slow day on the list however now it is going right off target and I think we should finish the discussion. Thanks, ListDad This is having less and less to do with web standards. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Standards compliant content management system. (MOVED TO THE APPROPRIATE LIST)
We have a CMS list for this subject. Please (subscribe if you're not already on it and) move it over there for any further discussion. For details, see: http://webstandardsgroup.org/go/resource131.cfm Regards, Peter * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] What Editors do you guys use? [Please reply to the poster that asked now]
Is Google that hard to use? http://www.google.com.au/search?q=ruby+editor Can we send these directly to the person that requested it please and that person can post the suggestions. Also, just give positives. If you don't like 'product-x', then don't suggest it. Trashing products on-list is not cool. Complain to the developer directly if you have a problem. Play nice now... P -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick Faaberg Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2004 8:47 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] What Editors do you guys use? On 6/6/04 3:39 AM Mordechai Peller [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent this out: Ruby What is Ruby? TIA Rick Faaberg * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] List daddy lecture time (speaking of grumpy list managers)
Hi everyone, Please reply directly to [EMAIL PROTECTED] NOT the list. If need be I'll post relevant discussion somewhere. At the bottom of all posts (well most as it doesn't get added when people send horrible HTML email) there is a link to the guidelines. The link is http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Can I please ask you to read this page. A few points I'd like to emphasise: A) Try to use plain text email rather than HTML email where possible. B) Thank people that help you OFF LIST please. C) Read all the posts in your inbox before answering so that multiple similar answers are avoided as much as possible. Point A) There is generally no excuse (unless you're using a webmail interface) as to why you can't set your email program to force plain text email to this address. Point C) Not always possible as people may be writing the same answer at the same time but when the same answer comes in over a long period it's clear that some people are not checking the rest of the posts with the same subject before answering. I'll add another three here... D) If you are replying to multiple replies to your question, do them all in one email rather than replying to each one. E) When replying, clean up the post before sending. Remove the quoted bits that you're not replying to and remove the headers and the WSG footer from the previous post. It just makes it easier to read. Also, if it was an HTML email and you have the ability to reply in text format, please change it to plain text. F) For broad topics like Min-width, try Google or even searching our archives (in the members section of the website or on http://www.mail-archive.com/wsg%40webstandardsgroup.org/) first. This should not always be your first place top look for information. Try the resources section of the WSG site as well. We are more than happy to help if you can't find an answer to a problem but at least try looking for the answer yourself first. Otherwise, the answer will probably be a link to a well-known resource and not a lot more. We have had a lot of traffic over the past 4 days and much of it was repetitive and should probably have been done directly to the poster. Repetitive and non-essential traffic is the main reason people leave the list. Just think about it when posting and try to be lean and considerate. Yes we do get complaints and frankly, I agree with them. Senders address are not hidden and it is often better to answer off list (I do as many of you know). If you can't see the address of the sender then you probably need to adjust the preferences in your mail reader to display it. I don't want to be grumpy about this but people are getting sick of opening their inbox on Monday morning and having 100+ messages from this list to wade through, especially when not much real discussion took place. It's counteractive as they'll probably delete them all and miss something that may have been of use to them. Be self regulatory so we don't have to step in. If it's off-topic, don't post it here. If you're not sure, ask us ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) first. If someone else posts an off-topic question (and you know it's off-topic) don't reply to it on list. If it's a thank you message to someone that helped you, then please thank them directly to their email address (and don't forget to do so). I am going to be heavy on OT posts from now on. This list DOES NOT cover everything. There is a list of what is and isn't on-topic in the guidelines and as stated before, the link is in the footer of most posts so you have no excuse for not knowing. You can all edit the resources section of the website so please take the initiative to set up new categories or add to the subjects that exist already. These resources are there to be used and may well answer some questions. Thanks for reading. I repeat... Please reply directly to [EMAIL PROTECTED] NOT the list (not that I expect any discussion on this). I'm not joking. Peter Firminger * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Action to force browser developers to clean up their act
Nick, No, no - I'm not suggesting for a second we should *only* develop for IE, or any other certain browsers! Just the opposite - I make a point of delivering my clients' message to the maximum number of visitors. And I'm not bitter; just realistic. That's why I say 'IE is here to stay'. Thanks to the many gurus around, we have a whole menu of hacks available so we *can* deliver Standards-driven sites to non-compliant browsers. Could it be that your site is broken, not the browser? We don't have any trouble accommodating IE with standards compliant code. I think your taking the argument too far and blaming the tool. IE had CSS support earlier than Netscape did. Don't simply cut down the tall poppy because there is a sympathetic (anti-M$) audience in the web standards community (and no, not all of us agree) and don't try (like you could) to incite another browser war. That's what started all this and Netscape was equally to blame. [note to self, work on sentence structure... Next time] It is a far far easier internet to code for now with compliant code. Look at the crap we had to write when NN 4 and IE 4 were battling it out. Both were very wrong and we had to use things like the '4 horsemen' to accommodate both. No wonder table layouts were used so heavily. There are very few issues remaining if you code your page thoughtfully (not in quirks mode) and ignore the features (like attribute selectors) that don't work in IE. Get over it. PNG Transparency is a slight pain but we still have gif and jpg alternatives so it isn't a killer. The only problem (not for me) is the Mime-type issue for XHTML 1.1 but as I've said before, I've yet to see someone using XHTML for any purpose other than plain mark-up and the best language to do that with (in my opinion) is still HTML 4.01 or if you really really must keep up with the Jones', XHTML 1.0 Transitional (HTML 5.0). There are a few other tweaks required (e.g. white space in lists) but they don't change it from still being standards compliant. Once you learn to code it correctly (or have a base set of code to start each site with), these are not big issues at all. If you have to use a multitude of hacks to get your design to work in IE then you just plain built it wrong. Ask for help. That's what this list is for. If it's XHTML 1.1 then you won't win. The web isn't ready for XHTML 1.1. The major browser doesn't accept it in the required format (and there are other issues with search engines etc. as well). Yes, this is IE's fault, but it's simple, don't use the language. Tell me why you have to use XHTML 1.1. Anyone? Depending on the answer I may have to climb a mountain. 100% compliant browsers. Write once, publish anywhere. It's the dream of Standards, right? I'm all for it; I'll do my bit, and more. But it's not the real world - not yet. I believe it is. But there will always be browser bugs (all of them have bugs) and the only way to do what you want is to lose the niche browsers like Firefox and Opera and go with IE, so that argument will never fly. NN 4 is still a bigger problem than IE (with a much smaller footprint though, thankfully due to IE's dominance winning that war). At least IE gets updated readily by the users (usually automatically) whereas a Netscape (4) user (or a corporation/department) is less likely to upgrade and when they do eventually change, it'll generally be to IE because it's a better business decision. That's exactly what I would do. It's there when you start the machine the first time (assuming they're using Windows which most will), it manages itself with security updates and service packs and (if the web developers do their job correctly) it works flawlessly. Using hacks to fix what you're doing (probably for pixel perfection) is a far bigger problem than IE's compliance. BTW your site http://www.omnivision.com.au/ has a JavaScript error... I suggest you use IE with the debugger turned on to find it :-) P * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] meta http-equiv :- CORRECTION
Nope sorry, The correct content type or MIME type for an XHTML document is application/xhtml+xml. This (mime type issue) is only required for XHTML 1.1. You don't have to do it for XHTML 1.0 Transitional (which the example was). The answer to Jamie's original question is to have a look at the source of some valid XHTML documents (like http://we04.com/ off the top of my bald head) to see what others use or paste the code you sent us into a validator (I suggest http://www.htmlhelp.com/tools/validator/direct.html for direct input) or even more simple, validate it in your code editor. If you're not using a code editor (notepad isn't a code editor it's a text editor) get one! It's simply amazing what google will show you on these topics as well! http://www.google.com/search?q=xhtml+mime+type http://www.google.com/search?q=xhtml+doctype Sorry Jamie, just trying to teach people how to fish (on a very well documented issue) instead of catching and cooking it. Sorry if this approach offends anyone but if it saves just 10% of the stuff coming into my inbox it's worth it (66 posts and 161 bounces from this list so far today). Peter * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Standard Hacks?
Russ and I have discussed this at length and we have come to the opinion that the @import rule (when used in that manner) is indeed a hack but a harmless one. The reasoning is that it exploits a bug or particular behaviour in a browser. In this case, older browsers don't understand it at all and they ignore it so that the real styles that will break them can be put in there safely. We believe (and maintain) that it is harmless as we can't envisage any browser manufacturer not obeying it in the future as it is actually the preferred method. Regards, Peter -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Harwood Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 11:35 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Standard Hacks? media=screen is not a hack, thats statin the proper display device target for the relavent stylesheet. Hacks are things like the IE Underscore hack, they tend to be workarounds for CSS properties that are not yet implemented in certain browsers or that need slightly differnt values, theres differnt hacks for each of the dodgy browsers. But you sould always look towards creating your site hack free as that is the best was to make sure its backward/forward and bloody even sideways compatible! Hacks are for the Cowbot webdesigner who hasnt done his job right in the first place! ( or for a client thats given too much hassle and not enough cash to make the recode cost effective! ;] ) Mark www.phunky.co.uk On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 23:11 , J4Web [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent: Well; I am surprised, but pleased actually, that so many of you are saying that hacks are not part of the Standards Arsenal. I had got the impression that I needed to become familiar with gadzillian hacks and be able to draw the appropriate one out of the woodwork every ten lines of CSS code. But I am getting the message that one can produce Standards Compliant pages without hacking. I am not quite totally convinced, though, and some of the replies have gone in the direction of supporting a big fat list, if not including some hacks in standard templates. I wondered if there are some workarounds that people on this list use habitually and forget they use them, so I did a quick sample of some of the URLs at the bottom of peoples' posts and the only hack I found so far (but I have not searched very thoroughly) was on the webstandards.org.au site : @import url(/stylesheets/wsg_advanced.css); media=screen Is the import hack a candidate for first (or sole) item on the list of standard hacks? It seems pretty essential to me to get version 4 browsers to degrade gracefully. I am enjoying learning from those who have been in this game much longer than me. John The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Standard Hacks?
No, we do it to specifically exploit this bug or particular behaviour so it is a hack. If you look at the stylesheets you'll see that there is basic css in the one that NN4 can see and all the other more advanced stuff is in the one it can't see. All quite deliberate using both methods to achieve it. So it is a bug. Not a hack. Imagine an webdesigner who never saw NN4.x nor he cared to much about it's bugs. He uses perfectly valid @import rule. And all of sudden you claim him using hacks. Why? Ignorance of the law is no excuse :-) and he (or she) would get an unstyled page in NN4, doesn't bother me a bit as long as it is semantically correct as well. I would say this person was hacking at all. It's the use of BOTH methods to target NN4 that is a hack. Regards, Peter * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] G RATED LIST
LOL Yeah, I'm not laughing! You should see the bounces I get from many many (Government) mail servers that block anything containing the f word (probably when it is in a URL). New rule (I really didn't think we had to make a rule about this) Anyone using profanity on this list in future will be dumped with extreme prejudice. Even if they're in urls. We have many members from many cultures/religions AND we have students as well, some quite young. I will not stand for anything that can possibly offend any member, especially when it adds to the weight of bounces into my inbox. We are definitely G RATED. Crap is the worst word I'll allow on the list. Don't answer, it isn't negotiable. and you'll probably like this: http://www... * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] Workshop on the W3C's Semantic Web Services Activity
Hi list, For our Queensland members (or anyone else that has a travel budget to get them to Brisbane for a Queensland mid-winter weekend): The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) is a non-for-profit, vendor-neutral international Web standards organisation that develops interoperable technologies (specifications, guidelines, software, and tools) to lead the Web to its full potential. W3C is a forum for information, commerce, communication, and collective understanding. You are invited to a free W3C workshop on the W3C's Semantic Web Services Activity to be held at: 9:30am to 10:30am Monday, 21 June 2004 IIB, Level 2, Leighton Building, 143 Coronation Drive (entry off Little Cribb Street), Milton http://www.iib.qld.gov.au/map.asp RSVP at: http://w3c.dstc.edu.au/events/bne2workshop_jun04.html Semantic Web Services = Web services are transforming the Internet from a collection of information into a distributed computational device. They enable software applications to be distributed, accessed and executed via the Web. But current web service technologies (UDDI, WSDL, and SOAP) provide limited support for automating service discovery, service configuration and service composition (i.e., realizing complex workflows with Web services). In order to fully employ the potential of web services, they need to be appropriately described. Semantic Web Services combines Semantic Web technology with Web Service technology to enable automated and dynamic Web service discovery, execution and composition through new technologies such as OWL-S (Ontology Web Language for Services). This presentation will provide an overview of the Semantic Web Services vision, describe recent technological developments (such as OWL-S), and demonstrate potential applications of Semantic Web services through a number of case studies. Bio === Dr Jane Hunter is a Distinguished Research Fellow at the Distributed Systems Technology (DSTC) Cooperative Research Centre, at the University of Queensland. She is also Project Leader of DSTC's MAENAD (Multimedia Access for Enterprises across Networks And Domains) project which is developing indexing, archival, discovery, analysis, integration, management and preservation tools and services to enable knowledge management, mining and capture within the educational, cultural and scientific domains. She is currently the liaison between MPEG (Moving Pictures Experts Group) and W3C, a member of the Dublin Core Advisory Board and the W3C Web Ontology Language Working group and on the Editorial board of Elsevier's Journal of Web Semantics. This project is funded under the Commonwealth Government's Innovation Access Program. An initiative of Backing Australia's Ability, the Commonwealth Government's commitment to Innovation and supported by DSTC, the Information Industries Bureau, ATUG and The Web Standards Group. URIs: = AusIndustry: http://www.ausindustry.gov.au/ DSTC: http://www.dstc.edu.au/ IIB: http://www.iib.qld.gov.au/ ATUG: http://www.atug.com.au/ Web Standards Group: http://webstandardsgroup.org/ W3C Australian Office: http://w3c.dstc.edu.au/ W3C Semantic Web Services Interest Group: http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/swsig/ No replies to the list please. Regards, Peter * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] file extensions
Not a good idea for the average website. If you're running amazon.com then there would be a reason to do it but for most of us maintenance would be an issue. P From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Christopher KennonSent: Sunday, June 13, 2004 9:28 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [WSG] file extensions Hi,Below is the url and excerpt from the passage in question. I've tried it and it works. The images are displayed, but someone looking over the code commented that it appeared that an image was used, but the extension was missing. Thus the question was inspired.Chrishttp://www.sitepoint.com/article/effective-website-acceleration/218. Remove or reduce file extensions. Interestingly, there really is little value to including file extensions such as .gif, . jpg , .js, and so on. The browser does not rely on these values to render a page; rather it uses the MIME type header in the response. Knowing this, we might take: img src="" and shorten it to: img src="" If combined with file renaming, this might produce: img src="" Don't be scared by how strange this technique looks; your actual file will still be sA.gif. It's just the end user who won't see it that way! In order to take advantage of this more advanced technique, however, you do need to make modifications to your server. The main thing you will have to do is to enable something called "content negotiation," which may be native to your server or require an extension such as mod_negotation for Apache or Port80's pageXchanger for IIS. The downside to this is that it may cause a slight performance hit on your server. However, the benefits of adding content negotiation far outweigh the costs. Clean URLs improve both security and portability of your sites, and even allow for adaptive content delivery whereby you can send different image types or languages to users based upon their browser's capabilities or system preferences! See "Towards Next Generation URLs" by the same authors for more information. Note: Extension-less URLs will not hurt your search engine ranking. Port80 Software, as well as major sites like the W3C, use this technique and have suffered no ill effects. On Saturday, June 12, 2004, at 03:34 PM, Jason Turnbull wrote: Just finished article from a reputable web site, specializing in bestpractices. They suggest omitting the file extensions .gif , .jpg and.png from image files for bandwidth conservation. Chris, Whats the URL for this article. I'm finding it hard to grasp thereasoning, does it save on bandwidth as the images don't get displayed?:-)RegardsJason*The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmfor some hints on posting to the list getting help*
[WSG] Category for Standards-based applications
Hi List, I have added (at the request of Bert Doorn) a resources section for server applications that output valid code. Bert's question included the following: - In order to further promote standards compliant (x)html and css websites, I wonder if we could as a group provide a list/database of commonly used server-side scripts that are designed to output standards compliant code (or can do so with minor configuration). I don't see anything like it in the resources. I am thinking in terms of ASP/PHP/whatever scripts in categories like (to mention just a handful): Shopping Carts Content Management Systems Forums Blogs Classified Ads There are of course lots of script archives out there, but it's hard to find scripts that don't use tables nested n levels deep, font elements and other assorted crap. - I've added Movable Type and Farcry to start with so please add any others that you know of (and feel free to edit the text of my entries). See http://webstandardsgroup.org/go/resourcecat25.cfm Personally, I don't know that there are a lot of these available off-the-shelf yet. I guess that's where groups like this come in and our clever developers start making them available to the world. Regards, Peter * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] OT: Intranet Search utility [ANSWER TO SENDER ONLY PLEASE]
Please answer this off list as it has nothing to do with Web Standards. P I am looking for a (preferably free) software to be able to do searches on an Intranet site. The Intranet is hosted on a local Unix Server. Any inputs would be greatly appreciated. Regards, Amit Karmakar www.karmakars.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Interesting reading
Then again, according to the article (rant): changing standards = OXYMORON That's why there are different versions and subversions. 3.2, 4.0 and 4.01 are all different beasts. They don't change. If you're an idiot that doesn't think a doctype is required because you don't understand it, then what do you expect? The author doesn't understand what a standard is. Putting features into a browser outside the standard doesn't make the browser non-compliant. It's when they don't implement something that is in the standard (or get the implementation wrong as in the box model) that the problem occurs. If IE7 puts in some support for new proprietary tags that are undefined in any standard, fine, as long as we don't use them and discourage anyone else from doing so. The same reason that client-side VBScript failed will prevail. Who is this person? http://www.decloak.com/Dev/CSSTables/CSS_Tables_07.aspx makes it even worse. He hasn't a clue. Just because you store the content in a database doesn't mean that it needs to be output in a table. It's not worth the effort responding. It's like talking to a confirmed racist. They make up whatever excuses they can satisfy themselves with. He'll feel like a fool when he eventually gets it as it'll all be in the wayback machine for posterity. Obviously why his name isn't on it. I don't care if Yahoo! uses invalid code. A) I don't (and refuse to) use it and B) I don't have to maintain it. A perfectly named company describing the people that run it :) Let it go. P * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] THREAD CLOSED - Redesigning smh.com.au theage.com.au with css
Title: RE: [WSG] Redesigning smh.com.au & theage.com.au with css Sorry folks, nothing really wrong here but the subject line is giving me grief.Some Governmentspam filters see ; in the subject and throw it back to me and I'm getting swamped. Stupid really but there you go. If you must answer it please remove amp; from the subject line. No discussion on this matter please. P From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Peter OtterySent: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 10:18 AMTo: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'Subject: RE: [WSG] Redesigning smh.com.au amp; theage.com.au with css Hiya, sorry, dont mean to add to the list traffic too much but just wanted to point out that your Mozilla extension added in some of its own styles etc when used to copy and paste those styles Amit. (changed colour values to rbg and added things like "border: medium none"...) cheers, pete I was just going to say that Pete :) use firefox/mozilla and dig out the CSS with the 'web developer extension. Here you go Nancy. Regards, Amit Karmakar www.karmakars.com snip pasted smh css was here/snip
RE: [WSG] Jobs and the list - where else?
Hi, Russ is in New Zealand at the moment and the end of the financial year was not good for either of us. For the moment I don't have time to build a new section for job ads, but it's in the list of things to do. I don't believe it's a good solution though as it will still require people to actively go there to look for new positions. It's not the role of WSG to be a listing agency so I only want the occasional one on the list and this has strict guidelines on formatting and wording. If you really need to post one, please write to [EMAIL PROTECTED] first and we'll give you the format and permission to post it. As for other places, if it's in Australia then try listing on www.webdesigners.net.au and I'm sure there are others as well. Regards, Peter -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Neerav Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 2:12 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Jobs and the list - where else? Graeme Great minds obviously think alike! I sent this email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] a week ago and have recvd no. I guess it got lost in his inbox, so ill post it here instead where all the moderators and members can read it: Russ Id like to put an idea to you as one of the WSG head honchos ... what do you think of this train of thought... 1. Developers who are a member of the WSG are more likely to use web standards in their work than developers who are not 2. Therefore they are more likely to employ / contract out work to fellow WSG members, because WSG members are more likely than not to have skills they require 3. Currently there is nothing stopping people from privately asking other WSG members if they know of job/contract opportunities by email, at the bi-monthly meetings or networking like on Thursday night, but it would be easier if WSG members who wanted to be contacted by: - prospective WSG member employees/contractors, - other WSG member companies to whom they can partner with Could add themselves to some kind of listing/directory available for viewing once logged into the WSG site. This could be beneficial for all members if done well. -- Neerav Bhatt http://www.bhatt.id.au Web Development IT consultancy Mobile: +61 (0)403 8000 27 http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/neerav Graeme Merrall wrote: Hi all. According to the list guidelines (http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm), job opportunities should not be posted. Is there an appropriate alternative for WSG people? Cheers, Graeme * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: Future.....(was: Re: [WSG] iFrames vs Scrolling Divs)
Hi Scott, The process is open. Join W3C, get on a working group and contribute to you're heart's content. But you'll need to know a lot more than you do now. No offence but I think you'll be out of your depth just getting out of the elevator (as I would be). http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Prospectus/Joining It's very easy to criticise the process but very few (360) actually make the huge effort to be involved, sit on a working group, attend the workshops, contribute to the discussions and actually do something about it. I trust the people that are there and that they are a very balanced and incredibly clever group. http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Member/List Obviously the majority of them are corporate. They have the resources to actually pay someone to be involved and fly them around to wherever the meetings are, and they will have a person that is an expert in the field. I wouldn't want just anyone (me, you etc.) sitting on these committees wasting their time. Read some of the transcripts of the meetings and see what's involved. Like this one from June: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps-cdf-discuss/2004Jun/att-0 000/2004jun01.html A side point (from the above workshop)... I love this statement: Bert Bos: Nearly 10 years ago, HTML was in danger. Extensions for layout made HTML less useful, proprietary extensions, etc. so we created stylesheets. CSS is now being taken up, but HTML is in danger again. JavaScript is the worst invention ever. And this: Hakon Lie: Bert started his presenation by saying he joined W3C to save HTML. How do you save something? How do you save a village? An endangered species? Do we save it by freezeing it? Or by doing something totally differetrn? Evolve it? EDo we want a revolution or an evolution? P * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
