Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media]
to be accessible the site doesn't necessarily have to look great, but
at least the content should show up in all browsers, even the old ones,
right?
Well, just talking WCAG 2, the requirement would be to use
accessibility-supported technologies (see
designer
Does anyone know of a modern, valid, reasonably cross-browser way to
provide a link on a page so that a user can add the page to favourites?
The only one I can find is IE only:
I know you're probably asking because a client insists on having it,
but...have we not evolved yet beyond
Jon Gunderson
I think this requirement is a little out dated, screen readers today
do a good job of telling people that a new window is open.
But, as discussed, the requirement actually doesn't concern itself
directly with links popping up new windows, but more things like the
page all of a
Chris F.A. Johnson
On Tue, 24 Feb 2009, John Horner wrote:
1) Button elements don't need styling, they take their styling from
the user's operating system, which they are, I assume, familiar and
comfortable with. I won't be reinventing the wheel.
Button elements are styled by the
David Dorward
I use siteSifter - http://www.sitesifter.co.uk/
With the usual caveat that automated testing tools can flag up false
positives and false negatives (for instance, on one site I just ran
through the free sitesifter service, it flagged the lack of
Content-Language in the HTTP header
James Milligan
What about coming up with your own?Not meaning to sound rude, but it
could be an opportunity for you.
+1
Particularly since, if I remember correctly, you already ended up with
the same problem with your startrek-related site that forced you to take
it offline?
P
Bringing it all back to the core question: cite is an optional
attribute, so can be omitted when using the blockquote element.
P
Patrick H. Lauke
Web Editor
Enterprise Development
University of Salford
Room 113, Faraday House
Salford, Greater Manchester
M5 4WT
UK
Heather
With WCAG 2.0 finally coming out yesterday - I was wondering how many
ctrl + clicks in (firefox for example) 200% is?
I would say it was 3 but some colleagues argue 2 or 4 ? Any
suggestions?
I'd say conceptually that's quite a nitpicky argument...say a page broke
spectacularly after
Ted Drake
Safari and firefox3 support the @font-face attribute. I don't know the
status of Opera and IE8.
I think current Opera doesn't, but the next version (Opera 10, currently
available as alpha) will http://www.opera.com/browser/next/
P
Patrick H. Lauke
Brett Patterson
what does OP mean?
Original Poster, i.e. the one who started this thread.
P
Patrick H. Lauke
Web Editor
Enterprise Development
University of Salford
Room 113, Faraday House
Salford, Greater Manchester
M5 4WT
UK
T +44 (0) 161 295 4779
[EMAIL
http://www.accessifyforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=3775
The flash method (detect presence of software that hooks into MSAA) may
be of some help if you write a small swf that then pings Google
Analytics or similar. But worth noting this recent article
http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/?p=61
More
wondering what part of THREAD CLOSED people don't understand...
***
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Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark
Stickley
Sent: 03 July 2008 14:56
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming
I wonder what a partially sighted user would
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
html { overflow-y: scroll; }
Ah, back in the days I tried it Opera wasn't playing ball. I now see that (at
least Opera 9.5) understands this now.
Good stuff.
P
Patrick H. Lauke
Web Editor
Enterprise Development
University of Salford
Room
Mark Voss
html{min-height:100.2%;}
even more subtle
html { min-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 1px; }
http://www.splintered.co.uk/experiments/49/
P
Patrick H. Lauke
Web Editor
Enterprise Development
University of Salford
Room 113, Faraday House
Salford,
jody tate
Most of their recommendations
include URI examples that use the .html extension and the
site itself
appears to use .html extensions:
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/Cover.html.
In fact, there's some advice that advocates ditching file extensions altogether
for future-proofing
Well yes, you could mark it up as XML behind the scenes, but you shouldn't be
sending XML to the browser. They might or might not be able to cope with it,
but you'd be breaking validation (unless you used XHTML sent as actual XML and
start namespacing things).
In simple terms, I'd mark up
Jonathan D'mello
To go off on a tangent Patrick, this is getting to be a rather common
excuse from some developers. If they don't want to change code, they
say it will break W3C standards.
The core tenet of web standards is to choose the most
semantically/structurally appropriate way to
Rick Lecoat
So let me see if I have this right: as long as my page declares an
encoding (I use UTF-8) I don't need to encode the entities, I
can just
type them straight into the markup. Is that correct?
Make sure that your whole environment is UTF-8 (your code editor, any database
Korny Sietsma
Release Candidate 1 is out now, so hopefully things will get more
stable when Ubuntu picks it up, but at the moment it's a world of pain
- at least for my configuration!
Beta5 and RC1 have been rock-solid on my systems (WinXP). And, as far as I
understand, RC1 is fairly
Tate Johnson
I agree with your latter point. However, I fear that it
protects lazy
developers who refuse to adopt standards based practices. That said,
the more and more you look at the community on the whole; it seems
less ignorant today than at the start of the decade.
The problem
kevin mcmonagle
hi,
anyone know how ie8 will work with ufo flash detection js and and the
standard dreamweaver flv embedding scripts?
thanks in advance
kevin
There's not even a downloadable beta of ie8 out yet...so I think there won't be
much of an answer beyond speculation?
P
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ted Drake
Sent: 04 February 2008 14:41
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] long description and its implementation
It's been a while since I've dealt with the issue of screen reader
Interesting...so what DO you get? Is that with JS enabled?
P
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Green
Sent: 04 February 2008 14:23
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] long description and its implementation
I
Should we be making this decision for the user though? If, by
default,
PDFs open within the browser, then won't we be changing their user
experience by forcing them to open/save?
In principle yes, but because so many other sites have worked around this
issue (usually by opening new
A few things I noticed (being ultra-critical perhaps at this stage):
First three links on the page are invisible skip links that don't show up, even
on focus, plus there's another hidden link to accesskey definitions after the
accessibility help link.
On the separate modules, it's initially
Assuming you mean on Windows, I've used WinDiff in the past and was reasonably
happy with it (though purely to get an at a glance comparison, not to
actually do any further processing of compared files - it doesn't seem to like
UTF-8, for a start...)
P
Patrick
Matthew Pennell
1) Many (most?) screenreaders do not read the title attribute by default.
2) Many (most?) screenreaders are perfectly able to execute JavaScript, so
when the user clicks the link, what happens? It might announce that the
document structure has been updated (by the addition
Wow, nobody decided whether or not it was a good idea or not. Screen readers
sit on top of the regular browser (in most cases on Windows, Internet
Explorer). They don't support javascript, they read the browser's DOM. The DOM
is affected by javascript. As users work their way through a page,
Matthew Pennell
It's not an abbreviated form of the full date by any stretch of the
imagination.
Tell that to the microformats crowd - they've practically stretched the idea of
abbreviation to anything, just so they can fit their machine readable data
into the page...
Why not just use a
E Michael Brandt
How about dfn title=Year 2007MMVII/dfn ?
I think this may stretch the meaning of DFN. A defining instance is the
occurrence of the term where the term is defined. It does not enclose the
actual definition. It also should only occur once per page for each defined
term.
P
Gaspar
I think this should get a manual check or warning.
You should ALWAYS do human checks of whatever an automated validation tools
tells you, unless it's something purely technical (e.g. does markup validate to
spec).
P
Patrick H. Lauke
Web Editor
Rick Lecoat
Is there a way out what seems, to my inexperienced eyes, like
a catch-22
situation?
Fix your spam issues at the mail server + mail client end, not at the web page
end, would be my advice.
P
Patrick H. Lauke
Web Editor
Enterprise Development
Because you can't detect when a screen reader is there or not...
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Or Golan
Sent: 17 October 2007 15:33
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Encoded mailto links
Why not simply
Rick Lecoat
To join with Andrew Maben, however, I'd be curious to know whether
spambots decode encoded entity text, eg:
'user'
becomes
'#117;#115;#101;#114;'
(ignore quote marks).
I assume that they can read them perfectly easily -- browsers
can, after
all -- but it'd
Rick Lecoat
If you are talking about actually hiding markup from certain agent
types, I'd certainly like to know your method.
Screen readers run on top of normal browsers like IE of Firefox, so
user-agent-wise you won't be able to really distinguish them. You *may* be able
to catch some
Gary Barber
Why bother taking the time to make something that is good
quality when
at the end of the day the client just wants cheap and functional and
looks nice.
Professionalism?
So the client says Why should I use you with your standards and
accessibility, Cowboy Design Joe
And here's me thinking that WCAG 1.0 _WAS_ a web standard !?
Guideline, not standard.
P
Patrick H. Lauke
Web Editor
Enterprise Development
University of Salford
Room 113, Faraday House
Salford, Greater Manchester
M5 4WT
UK
T +44 (0) 161 295 4779
[EMAIL
Ok everybody...welcome to the *Web Standards Group* mailing list, where we
discuss *Web Standards*. For discussions on history, sociology, politics, law,
morals, capitalism, communism, etc, I'm sure there are other places...
For those who don't think the DDA and ADA should apply in certain
If you're doing business in a country (as in your company has offices and/or
stores in that country), that country's legislation applies.
P
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris
Wilson
Sent: 03 October 2007
Jermayn Parker
1992
that is 15 years ago :shock:
surely its time for a new updated version that includes up to date web
version of rules etc.
If you want businesses and websites to follow these standards
they need
to be update
Because, you know...they've simply been ignoring 15
Julie Romanowski
Please visit Michelle Malkin's site and post your comments -
http://michellemalkin.com/2007/10/03/blind-shoppers-get-green-
light-to-s
ue-target-over-website/.
It's reassuring to see the exact same idiotic views still being bandied around,
most of them along the the web is
Marghanita da Cruz
While exploring the standards compliance/XHTML/HTML issue,
I was surprised by the variation in the display of Alt text.
On the small sample, the XHTML/HTML did not seem to make a
jot of difference.
The screen shots are available at
Tee G. Peng
Hmmm, I didn't think about that. My clients asked me how to add
*decorative* images by themselves, I asked are they any meaning/
purpose of those images, are they echo to your content, they said no
I just wanted my page looks nice in certain area. I told them sorry
you
Tee G. Peng
I am working on a bilingual site (chinese/english) that needs
to pass
at least WCAG AA, the site is UTF-8 charset and I didn't use lang
attribute in the meta because it's a bilingual site.
[...]
What do you propose I should do to make the 'failure' goes away?
Is every page
Alastair Campbell
Does the HTML working group have to take into account
accessibility guidelines?
What I mean is, does it have to make alt mandatory because WCAG (any
version) does?
I don't think HTML5 is expected to be rolled out until 5 years or so. In that
sense, WCAG 1 would
Lucien Stals
For a comparison, the w3schools site defines fieldset as The fieldset
element draws a box around its containing elements. And that's the
complete sentence. Note no mention of form controls.
I leave it to others to debate the authority of the w3schools
site, and
it's a
Peter Leing
I think the issue may be with how the browser is handling
spaces/tabs/carriage returns in the html file. Removing the
spacing in your page through firebug produced a similar
affect as the table display.
Can't guarantee how robust this would be in all situations, but I've just
Andrew Maben
This may be heresy, but I think this might
be a perfectly legitimate use of a (properly
marked-up) table?
Tables are for tabular data (where rows/columns have a
very strictly determined relationship, and moving cells
around changes the meaning of the data). The data in
this
Stuart Foulstone
If you want to do hacks then you shouldn't pretend to do valid coding.
And broken browsers shouldn't pretend to follow the spec then...until that day,
a small hack or workaround, if done cleanly, is perfectly acceptable.
P
Patrick H. Lauke
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tim
sub/sub Subscript lower than the text
sup/sup Superscript higher than the text, maybe just a number
linked to a date in the page footer
Or in a stylesheet make a class of smaller text.
Those three examples are all
Robby Jennings wrote:
I've found this list of depreciated tags
http://www.html-reference.com/depreciated.htm which lists
strong and
em as depreciated. I thought the b tag would be depreciated.
The fact that they confused (based on the filename) depreciate with *deprecate*
made me
Nick Fitzsimons
Surely
label for=searchBox
input type=text id=searchBox name=q
button type=submitSearch/button
/label
would therefore keep everybody happy?
Depends on AT support (whether or not a screenreader would actually be able to
make sense of this construct and expose
Stuart Foulstone
If you're only concerned about providing form accessibility for
screenreaders, and no other disability, you could use the
method below or
a transparent.gif with appropriate alt-text would work too.
Not necessarily just for screenreader accessibility. If the input itself is
Nick Fitzsimons
Surely
label for=searchBox
input type=text id=searchBox name=q
button type=submitSearch/button
/label
would therefore keep everybody happy?
Depends on AT support (whether or not a screenreader would actually be able to
make sense of this construct and expose
McIvor Lee
The phrasing of the Cynthia results page suggests that there
are alternative
methods to pass this particular checkpoint without using a
label, but I don't
know of one.
Adding a title attribute to the form element (in this case,
the SELECT) is one of these alternatives.
P
Ian Anderson
To consider two extreme examples if the MSNBC logo was linked to the
home page, alt text of MSNBC would be the least helpful,
although that is the exact equivalent of what happens visually for
sighted users, and they then use their acquired knowledge to understand
that it links
Ian Anderson
Great minds and all that? If you reread the previous bit of my post
you'll see:
'So, the logo should say something like MSNBC home page'
Yes, but you seemed to suggest having that as the ALT, whereas I'd say
it's more appropriate to just have MSNBC as the ALT and have the
Lachlan Hunt
but lot's of people (mostly designers) who prefer smaller
font-sizes.
It's unfortunate that so many designers prefer small font
sizes. They
fail to realise that while they may think small fonts may
look good from
a design perspective and are easily readable on their
Jamie Mason
When a new th appears, does it append to the previous header?
Or replace/start again the context of it's scope? Is it something
that is/can be affected by use of tbody's possibly? Or should this
never occur and the structure of the data be rethought?
I may be wrong, but I'd
kvnmcwebn
lisa,
If you provide the user with a Javascript pop-up window that they
right-click to display a pretty flash-based font-increasing
app, the user
could increase the font as much as they like.
It's known as the 'Clydesdale Hack'.
can you give me an example of the
Conyers, Dwayne, Mr
While I believe accessibility is an important design issue,
is there legal
precedent for suing someone for poor design?
Does the Ramada/Priceline debacle count?
http://news.com.com/Travel+sites+agree+to+changes+for+the+blind/2100-1038_3-5318568.html
P
Lea de Groot
Wouldn't
h2 for=mylist/h2
ol id=mylist/ol
be nice? :)
So what do you do when you have 2 or more elements that the heading refers to?
h2 for=mypara1 mypara2/h2
p id=mypara1/p
p id=mypara2/p
etc?
It's not really a scalable solution, IMHO.
As someone already mentioned, the
kvnmcwebn
patrick wrote
As someone already mentioned, the source order should be
enough to inform
what the heading refers to, without the need for explicit
association.
sorry i dont understand this could someone please explain?
If you have a heading, followed by some other content
Anders Nawroth
Does the toggle function have to be connected to a a element, or do
JS-enabled screen readers recognize onClick events attached to other
elements?
The function needs to be attached to an element that receives focus, i.e.
an element that users can tab to via the keyboard.
Svip
Actually, the best way would be to use PHP,
If it's only a case of including a piece of static content inside another page,
there's really no advantage in using PHP over simple server-side includes.
and besides, we do not
tend to call them HTM pages, but rather HTML pages.
Possibly
Al Sparber
From: Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please, no more silly statements like that. This is the Web Standards
Group. To take it a step further, the html coding can never be table
based. That's hacking, not coding.
---
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Are tables unauthorized?
I never said that tables are meant for design. But even by w3.org
standards they are used for displaying tabular data .
Tabular data is, of course, a completely different matter. Using tables
is of course the best, most semantic way to present that
Al Sparber
I guess your assertion hinges on how one interprets the word
should.
Perhaps I am English-challenged, but I always took should to have a
suggestive or advisory connotation, while shall or must are
obligatory :-)
http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2119.txt
3. SHOULD This word, or
Bob Schwartz
I've found the need to use one table as a base layout because
I still
cannot get a div to expand in height (no height defined) to
incompass
its nested content as a table cell does.
If your nested content is positioned absolutely, then there is
currently no plain vanilla
Bob Schwartz
Couldn't the if floated solution be considered a hack? :-}
It is starting to sound as if my reasons for using one table
once-and-
awhile are still valid and that there are still some height issues
with divs.
If you're floating or absolutely positioning things, a table
Cameron Edwards
Following some of the very interesting UK .gov mails of late,
I've been
involved in a fierce debate about serving XHTML 1.0 STRICT either as
application/xhtml+xml or text/html, content negotiation and the like -
whether, in fact, the world is ready for XHTML etc
Hmm...that
Daisy
Could we drop the sexist (it's never a grandfather!), ageist digs at
people who simply had the misfortune to be born 10, 20, 50
years too early?
Fair enough, my sincere apologies. In my defence, the example was actually
based on a real life example from a colleague of mine.
Replace
Lachlan Hunt
I'll be sure to make sure all my future examples use
non-technologically inclined, gender indeterminent homo sapien
instead. Sure it's a mouthful, but we mustn't be sexist.
You can go overboard on political correctness, certainly...but Daisy's
comment is very valid in my
Welcome to the Firefox support list...aeh...
Anyway, the installation block has been in Firefox for ages (at least
since 0.9, I think). Did you then actually click the "Edit Options" button, like
it says right there? Can't be more explicit than that...
Patrick
From: [EMAIL
Artemis
the snow falls more smoothly in FF 1.5.
Firefox 1.5 - now with even smoother snow!
Now that's a new marketing angle... :)
P
Patrick H. Lauke
Web Editor / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
Web Standards
Stuart Sherwood
Outline selected isn't working properly for me either.
Stephen Stagg wrote:
Is it just me or does the ‘Disable Images’ option on the Web
Developers Toolbar not work with FF1.5?
Did you do a clean install (with a fresh profile) or an upgrade? Sometimes,
although it
Rick Faaberg
On 11/18/05 2:16 AM James Bennett [EMAIL PROTECTED]
sent this out:
I think part of the problem here is that
You have many valid thoughts, and you express them well. :-)
So what, most of the ramblings of Geoff and I posted were invalid
and badly expressed? ;)
Nah, just
Geoff Deering
Okay, so if this was implemented in user agents, what would be your
educated estimate of percentage of users who would configure this and
therefore avoid this problem of interpreting the incorrect
state of form
controls?
I'd estimate it to be roughly the same as the
Geoff Deering
I'd estimate it to be roughly the same as the percentage of
users that have reconfigured their OS to use different
default colours which would make them get confused by
*judiciously* styled form controls.
And what percentage of users that access those web pages would you
Geoff Deering
Secondly, by this recommendation you are actually addressing the flip
side of the problem I am trying to address.
The case you are addressing here is
1) A recommendation of how to deal with styles that may
conflict with a
form element that is in an activated state.
2)
Geoff Deering
The problem is that web designers are now implementing designs that
convey meaning to form controls, that they are not intending
to imply in their design,
Which, again, is a sign of a bad designer, and a problem that should be solved
by educating the designer, not simply
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
I think it depends on 1) whether
it's important that the news scroller be
accessible by search engines
...or, you know...*actual people* trying to use the site...
P
Patrick H. Lauke
Web Editor / University of Salford
ivanovitch
The demo page is at http://imeet.com.au/aa2/ - it's cut right backto
highlight my problem. Ignore the content, and the site URL
I'm trying to find a way to make blocks of text in a div (item) to
display the hover background for the entire div, and not just the
linked text.
designer
I'm new to PHP/mySQL and I'm finding that some peculiar things
happen, such as /body and /html appear in the middle of the code.
Difficult to know without seeing a URL and the associated PHP code.
Sound like an error in the PHP to me, though...
Seona Bellamy
I know that there were some really good articles floating around on
the list a while back when someone was asking how to sell web
standards to clients.
MACCAWS is fairly nice http://www.maccaws.org/kit/
Just to give my GBP0.02 on the issue, I usually (unless clients
Jad Madi
I would like to know whats the standards way to list images Vertical
and Horizental
is there anything against using
img src= alt= /br /img src= alt= / for the
vertical listing?
You've used the magic word twice already in your question...if you're
listing, that would suggest that
Bruce
I should add the site is http://www.bkdesign.ca
My links in my sidebar on a new main site I am doing are underlined.
But the underline starts someplace in the middle of the link, not at the
beginning.???
Don't ask me why (though I suspect it's because a is an inline element, so
Townson, Chris
(I think Patrick might have been making a point
earlier that logos might come under the category of 'illustration')
The cons:
- I think that something that is text (i.e. the company name)
gets marked up
as an image
I would argue (without sounding too much like a marketeer
Jad Madi
is there any good reviews of Dreamweaver 8 and web standards? do you
recommend using it to achieve standards compliant sites?
any advantages/disadvantages?
Apparently it's quite good. I'd recommend having a look at
http://www.sitepoint.com/article/dreamweaver-8-standards
(and the
Townson, Chris
b) You always have a sensible H1 for which all H2s are
genuine subheadings.
and what, h1img src=logo.jpg alt=Company name //h1
is not genuine?
Patrick
__
Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
Townson, Chris
This would be due to the point about indexicality I mentioned.
This would be the point where I'd say the whole discussion on semantics
risks disappearing up it own behind...no offense.
You want to do web design, eh? Well, get onto the semiotics and linguistics
course for the
Townson, Chris
I agree with your point here completely. However, in
pragmatic (;)) terms,
with current technology, text is just the only solution which conveys
meaning to _all_ users (not just those using graphical
browsers on a desktop
PC)
The only problem with having an image of a
Apologies for cross posting:
Interview with Matt May
http://www.accessify.com/2005/10/interview-with-matt-may.asp
__
Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
Golding, Antony
Try adding the 'onclick' code into an 'onkeypress' entry also...
However, in Firefox - and, if I recall correctly, Mozilla (Seamonkey) as
well - a tab also counts as a keypress. Therefore, simply tabbing to the
link and attempting to tab to the next one will trigger the
Daniel Nitsche
There is something on this very topic in the WCAG:
http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-HTML-TECHS/#lists
And the clincher on that still is
Until either CSS2 is widely supported or user agents
allow users to control rendering of lists through other means,
authors should consider
Rimantas Liubertas
Maybe just throw
the info and leave
all the rest for the users to control? Paint it yourself style of web.
Oh, and incidentally, that seems to be what some people on the WWW Style
list (Orion being the loudest proponent) would like to see in the future
*shudder*
Marco van Hylckama Vlieg
One can either
manipulate the way
output looks by dynamically changing the CSS or by
dynamically changing
the HTML output. I prefer the latter to be honest.
But the question is: why do you prefer it? Just gut feeling,
or any valuable/measurable reason?
Also: of
Tom Livingston
I disagree. span style=color:#f00;some_text/span is puttiing
presentation in the markup. class=red is still a class that can be
changes in the sheet. In my mind, the word red in this case
is just a word, not a color.
It's just a word, but it does have presentational
Marilyn Langfeld
FYI, Blogger does use templates which will update earlier posts as
well as current posts when you make a change to them. I'm not a
programmer, so I can't say how (thinking javascript), but I
just made
a change to my navigation thoughout my site. Then I made it
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