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> From: Ted Swarts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Reply-To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 10:30:45 -0800 > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: NADI and Komet was Safety and the > environment(waswashing machine and biodiesel) > > Dear Edward, > > I agree that biofuel, in many of its forms, has a place in the global energy > matrix. But I personally see its place as limited by the ability of our > planet to provide feedstock, in a sustainable way, and by the EROEI of the > fuel production processes. Widespread use of croplands, for the principal > purposes of energy production, is untenable and even the widespread use of > harvested byproducts has severe limitations. In my mind, agricultural waste > is better served as fertilizer, which as you well know, is now driven > principally by a rapidly depleting resource, fossil fuels. More significant > than limited feedstock, is the raw energy to produce biofuel. This issue has > been debated here and elsewhere but, no matter how you look at it, given the > fuel production processes as discussed in this forum and as described in the > popular literature, biofuel has at best a small positive EROEI and, even > then, it is only when access to required resources is favorable. These > combined issues severely limit the widespread application of all biofuels. " Biodiesel yields 3.2 units of fuel product energy for every unit of fossil energy consumed in its life cycle. The production of B20 yields 0.98 units of fuel product energy for every unit of fossil energy consumed. " http://www.ott.doe.gov/biofuels/docs/lifecycle.html (SVO is better than that of course, and NADI/SVO in the middle) > > Don't get me wrong, please. I'm not saying that biofuel doesn't have a > place. Nor am I saying that improved technology and processes will not play > a role in making its place more significant. I'm just saying that the > current state of the art limits it to a few entrepreneurs and independent > souls who have ready access to organic feedstock and cheap energy or > manpower. > > To move biofuels forward, the industry must innovate and part of that > process is the sharing of information and technology. Hiding that > information and technology is not doing anyone any good. Opening it up, > encouraging its development, is a better option. Right, which is why society encourages inventors to disclose information via patents, and for which we give patent protection for a limited time only, not in perpetuity, to compensate for that disclosure. nobody is hiding the formula, if it were to be hidden, it would not have been patented, it would have been locked away in a vault. But of course, with the dismantling of a sample that can be done these days, that's not really an option as you say, so for a commerical enterprise, the patent process is the only game in town to establish a market, make some money, and have a measure of protection for a period of time. > > Your argument that NADI's developers have spent a long time working on the > product is, no doubt, a heartfelt one but, in the greater scheme of things, > it does not entitle them to an uncontested control of that technology. Well, I suppose it is somewhat "heartfelt", but more it's just business reality. A patent does, in fact, give the exclusive right to manufacture, license, distribute, for a time - see above. > Reverse engineering and extensive patent searches are a way of Western life. > Every major corporation doing any sort of development is repeatedly > evaluating patented technologies, seeking ideas and embellishing them to, > more often than not, make the same basic product under a new patent. Once in > a while, patented information is used as basis of improvement and that, like > it or not, moves technology forward. Yes. Prior art is almost always used. > > So I carry no guilt in wanting to understand what is inside NADI. I want to > know how it works, just like I want to know how other things work, so I can > work with them comfortably, so I can repair or maintain them if need be, and > one of these days, so I can improve upon maybe one of them, to make a better > version, so to speak. Good. Enjoy. Good luck. Improve on it. Make it cheaper. > > I will definitely do a patent search on NADI and I encourage anyone with an > entrepreneurial spirit or an interest in biofuels to do the same. As to > copying that technology, be prepared for legal actions if you're planning on > commercializing it. Better yet, change the technology to evade infringement > laws, that's the western way, but if you do so, make it better. Good advice. > > Of course, the requirements for making a NADI type product may be > prohibitive and in that case, I encourage you to use the branded product or, > like I'd be inclined to do, another technology altogether. Let us know how it goes, and once proven and patented maybe we will buy your version! > > As to the product itself, NADI seems to provide SVO with a nice combination > of properties. At the right price I might even buy it but, unless competing > products enter the market, it is highly unlikely that will ever happen. Nobody is promoting it for use as fuel in this part of the world. We'll see if it is viable in some circumstances for some regions. A niche product. > > Ted Swarts > Kelowna, British Columbia > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Neoteric Biofuels Inc." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 8:45 AM > Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: NADI and Komet was Safety and the > environment(waswashing machine and biodiesel) > > >> Hi Ted: >> >> First, I think this is a broad market and there is room for a range of >> options, biodiesel, SVO...NADI, and others, depending on markets and user >> needs. >> >> Second, to come up with a workable recipe for NADI took the researchers >> several years of R&D, and their solution to certain technical shortcomings >> of earlier efforts to have a sort of "mix and go" for vegoil use in > diesels, >> (versus the need to make methyl ester and deal with the concerns expressed >> in this discussion earlier), or the need to fit an SVO system, is what >> earned them a patent. >> >> Now, that additive is what is available for 80% local vegoil - 20% > additive. >> >> Sound familiar? What is methanol? 20% input from an outside supplier, and >> which is 99% of the time derived from fossil natural gas. >> >> The NADI additive is far safer to ship, store, and handle than methanol >> and safer than handling sodium hydroxide and sodium methoxide, and is >> largely a natural, renewable base with small percentages of >> petrochemical-derived ingredients. >> >> The difference, and advantage, over making biodiesel is that it is safer > and >> easier to use thatn the inputs needed for biodiesel, and can literally be >> mixed with a canoe paddle if you want, to make an almost (probably well > over >> 90% - better than biodiesel) completely natural renewable alternative > diesel >> fuel. >> >> One that is largely based on locally-produced vegetable oil, and produces >> no waste products of glycerine or waste water. >> >> That will be of interest in some markets, as the cost comes down (of >> additive), as distribution and availability increase, and as cost of >> petrodiesel rises, etc. >> >> >> Note that it is not competitive with biodiesel in North America at this >> time, for use as fuel, but may be of interest in specific markets in > coming >> years. >> >> No power needed, no water needed, no methanol, no sodium hydroxide. No >> processor. No wastewater or glycerine to get rid of. No separation in >> storage for 12 months. Good cold flow properties. Testing seems to > indicate >> lately that power and fuel economy increase, and emissions decrease, at >> perhaps better than biodiesel levels, in blends with diesel. I am waiting > to >> see more on that, but those are the results from the latest round of > tests. >> >> Yes it is patented worldwide to the best of my knowledge. No,sorry, I > won't >> make it that easy and give you and the 1000 others on this list the patent >> #, but it does exist. >> It is available with a bit of digging, I don't feel any obligation to >> provide information to the group beyond what I have indicated in some >> earlier posts. Some may not be as interested as you are in developing > their >> own product from scratch ( in which case you don't need to study the > patent, >> since you do not want to be dependent on others), but may be more > inclined >> to 'borrow' well beyond the point of infringement and thus perhaps deprive >> the developers of their right to make and sell patented product for a > period >> of years in exchange for their having disclosed a potential trade secret > to >> eventual public domain. >> >> Anyone remember Camillo and his comment on how he had to sell a few > million >> $ Energea continuous processor units before telling us all how it all >> worked? Same thing. >> >> No offense taken by your questions, and none intended in this response, > BTW. >> >> This is just one of a number of vegoil/biodiesel options out there, we > are >> interested in the full range. >> >> >> Edward Beggs >> www.biofuels.ca >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> From: Ted Swarts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> Reply-To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com >>> Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 13:48:48 -0800 >>> To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com >>> Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: NADI and Komet was Safety and the > environment >>> (waswashing machine and biodiesel) >>> >>> Dear Edward, >>> >>> In general, my personal attraction to biofuel is the independance it > gives >>> those who have the will and resources to make it, as compared to its >>> potential as a widespread (global) replacement for gasoline or diesel, > which >>> I personally believe is limited. >>> >>> With this in mind, what appeals to me as a consumer of biofuel > technology, >>> are processes and products that enable rather than bind. Although I'd > prefer >>> to build my own equipment and systems, I'm not obsessed with reinventing > the >>> wheel and if some company can provide me with superior equipment at a >>> reasonable cost, I'll consider purchasing it. But what I don't want is > to >>> lock myself into an arrangement where I'm dependant upon that same > vendor >>> for an ongoing supply of anything much less an additive which may be >>> reasonably produced by myself. >>> >>> What I am getting at is this: Why would I use your NADI additive when I > can >>> create my own? Why would I put myself in a position where I'm eternally >>> dependant upon a supplier of that product? Such dependance grates me. > This >>> isn't to say that many of the products your company provides are not > wanted >>> and needed for they nodoubt are. >>> >>> As to the NADI additive itself, you said it is "largely composed" of >>> "renewable and natural >>> products." This statement implies that some of its ingredients are not >>> renewable or not natural. What are these other ingredients? Is this > product >>> patented and if so what is the patent number? >>> >>> Over the past several months, I've appreciated your contributions to > this >>> forum and I hope you will not interpret my questions or comments as >>> offensive, for they are not meant to be. >>> >>> Ted Swarts >>> Kelowna, British Columbia >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Neoteric Biofuels Inc." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> >>> Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 11:35 AM >>> Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: NADI and Komet was Safety and the environment >>> (waswashing machine and biodiesel) >>> >> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >> Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. >> To unsubscribe, send an email to: >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ >> >> >> > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
