Dear Edward, I agree that biofuel, in many of its forms, has a place in the global energy matrix. But I personally see its place as limited by the ability of our planet to provide feedstock, in a sustainable way, and by the EROEI of the fuel production processes. Widespread use of croplands, for the principal purposes of energy production, is untenable and even the widespread use of harvested byproducts has severe limitations. In my mind, agricultural waste is better served as fertilizer, which as you well know, is now driven principally by a rapidly depleting resource, fossil fuels. More significant than limited feedstock, is the raw energy to produce biofuel. This issue has been debated here and elsewhere but, no matter how you look at it, given the fuel production processes as discussed in this forum and as described in the popular literature, biofuel has at best a small positive EROEI and, even then, it is only when access to required resources is favorable. These combined issues severely limit the widespread application of all biofuels.
Don't get me wrong, please. I'm not saying that biofuel doesn't have a place. Nor am I saying that improved technology and processes will not play a role in making its place more significant. I'm just saying that the current state of the art limits it to a few entrepreneurs and independent souls who have ready access to organic feedstock and cheap energy or manpower. To move biofuels forward, the industry must innovate and part of that process is the sharing of information and technology. Hiding that information and technology is not doing anyone any good. Opening it up, encouraging its development, is a better option. Your argument that NADI's developers have spent a long time working on the product is, no doubt, a heartfelt one but, in the greater scheme of things, it does not entitle them to an uncontested control of that technology. Reverse engineering and extensive patent searches are a way of Western life. Every major corporation doing any sort of development is repeatedly evaluating patented technologies, seeking ideas and embellishing them to, more often than not, make the same basic product under a new patent. Once in a while, patented information is used as basis of improvement and that, like it or not, moves technology forward. So I carry no guilt in wanting to understand what is inside NADI. I want to know how it works, just like I want to know how other things work, so I can work with them comfortably, so I can repair or maintain them if need be, and one of these days, so I can improve upon maybe one of them, to make a better version, so to speak. I will definitely do a patent search on NADI and I encourage anyone with an entrepreneurial spirit or an interest in biofuels to do the same. As to copying that technology, be prepared for legal actions if you're planning on commercializing it. Better yet, change the technology to evade infringement laws, that's the western way, but if you do so, make it better. Of course, the requirements for making a NADI type product may be prohibitive and in that case, I encourage you to use the branded product or, like I'd be inclined to do, another technology altogether. As to the product itself, NADI seems to provide SVO with a nice combination of properties. At the right price I might even buy it but, unless competing products enter the market, it is highly unlikely that will ever happen. Ted Swarts Kelowna, British Columbia ----- Original Message ----- From: "Neoteric Biofuels Inc." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 8:45 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: NADI and Komet was Safety and the environment(waswashing machine and biodiesel) > Hi Ted: > > First, I think this is a broad market and there is room for a range of > options, biodiesel, SVO...NADI, and others, depending on markets and user > needs. > > Second, to come up with a workable recipe for NADI took the researchers > several years of R&D, and their solution to certain technical shortcomings > of earlier efforts to have a sort of "mix and go" for vegoil use in diesels, > (versus the need to make methyl ester and deal with the concerns expressed > in this discussion earlier), or the need to fit an SVO system, is what > earned them a patent. > > Now, that additive is what is available for 80% local vegoil - 20% additive. > > Sound familiar? What is methanol? 20% input from an outside supplier, and > which is 99% of the time derived from fossil natural gas. > > The NADI additive is far safer to ship, store, and handle than methanol > and safer than handling sodium hydroxide and sodium methoxide, and is > largely a natural, renewable base with small percentages of > petrochemical-derived ingredients. > > The difference, and advantage, over making biodiesel is that it is safer and > easier to use thatn the inputs needed for biodiesel, and can literally be > mixed with a canoe paddle if you want, to make an almost (probably well over > 90% - better than biodiesel) completely natural renewable alternative diesel > fuel. > > One that is largely based on locally-produced vegetable oil, and produces > no waste products of glycerine or waste water. > > That will be of interest in some markets, as the cost comes down (of > additive), as distribution and availability increase, and as cost of > petrodiesel rises, etc. > > > Note that it is not competitive with biodiesel in North America at this > time, for use as fuel, but may be of interest in specific markets in coming > years. > > No power needed, no water needed, no methanol, no sodium hydroxide. No > processor. No wastewater or glycerine to get rid of. No separation in > storage for 12 months. Good cold flow properties. Testing seems to indicate > lately that power and fuel economy increase, and emissions decrease, at > perhaps better than biodiesel levels, in blends with diesel. I am waiting to > see more on that, but those are the results from the latest round of tests. > > Yes it is patented worldwide to the best of my knowledge. No,sorry, I won't > make it that easy and give you and the 1000 others on this list the patent > #, but it does exist. > It is available with a bit of digging, I don't feel any obligation to > provide information to the group beyond what I have indicated in some > earlier posts. Some may not be as interested as you are in developing their > own product from scratch ( in which case you don't need to study the patent, > since you do not want to be dependent on others), but may be more inclined > to 'borrow' well beyond the point of infringement and thus perhaps deprive > the developers of their right to make and sell patented product for a period > of years in exchange for their having disclosed a potential trade secret to > eventual public domain. > > Anyone remember Camillo and his comment on how he had to sell a few million > $ Energea continuous processor units before telling us all how it all > worked? Same thing. > > No offense taken by your questions, and none intended in this response, BTW. > > This is just one of a number of vegoil/biodiesel options out there, we are > interested in the full range. > > > Edward Beggs > www.biofuels.ca > > > > > > > > From: Ted Swarts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Reply-To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 13:48:48 -0800 > > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: NADI and Komet was Safety and the environment > > (waswashing machine and biodiesel) > > > > Dear Edward, > > > > In general, my personal attraction to biofuel is the independance it gives > > those who have the will and resources to make it, as compared to its > > potential as a widespread (global) replacement for gasoline or diesel, which > > I personally believe is limited. > > > > With this in mind, what appeals to me as a consumer of biofuel technology, > > are processes and products that enable rather than bind. Although I'd prefer > > to build my own equipment and systems, I'm not obsessed with reinventing the > > wheel and if some company can provide me with superior equipment at a > > reasonable cost, I'll consider purchasing it. But what I don't want is to > > lock myself into an arrangement where I'm dependant upon that same vendor > > for an ongoing supply of anything much less an additive which may be > > reasonably produced by myself. > > > > What I am getting at is this: Why would I use your NADI additive when I can > > create my own? Why would I put myself in a position where I'm eternally > > dependant upon a supplier of that product? Such dependance grates me. This > > isn't to say that many of the products your company provides are not wanted > > and needed for they nodoubt are. > > > > As to the NADI additive itself, you said it is "largely composed" of > > "renewable and natural > > products." This statement implies that some of its ingredients are not > > renewable or not natural. What are these other ingredients? Is this product > > patented and if so what is the patent number? > > > > Over the past several months, I've appreciated your contributions to this > > forum and I hope you will not interpret my questions or comments as > > offensive, for they are not meant to be. > > > > Ted Swarts > > Kelowna, British Columbia > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Neoteric Biofuels Inc." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 11:35 AM > > Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: NADI and Komet was Safety and the environment > > (waswashing machine and biodiesel) > > > > > > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! 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